West Coast Connection Forum

Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Infinite Trapped in 1996 on February 21, 2006, 01:23:02 AM

Title: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Infinite Trapped in 1996 on February 21, 2006, 01:23:02 AM
http://www.finalcall.com/pressconference/


Fast forward to 43 minutes if you want, around the time where he starts talking about the project for a new American century. 



(since everyone else at this forum seems to want to make this an issue and a point of contention, let me state my position that I am an Orthodox Muslim and we don't subscribe to any of the tenets of nationalism, Farrakhan on the other hand, does represent black nationalism.  Still, with that being said, Farakhan considers himself a friend and brother to orthodox Muslims all over the world, and therefore many Muslims see him as a brother, even though he does have evident differences in philosophy)
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Mr. O on February 21, 2006, 02:00:48 AM
new american century?  Neo conservative?  Is he talking how about how Bush wanted to change American policy before he got in as a president??  Not sure what exactly american century is, but isn't it gobal, imperiaist govenering type?  I know both left and right critics been critizing this.   I guess their basic belief was to lead the world and stuff like that.  How can Bush create this concept if his term is about to be up?  There's got to be someone evil like him to actually this thing.  U.S. wants to dominate in space, cyberspace, military, and etc...
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: 7even on February 21, 2006, 06:09:31 AM
Ethering nationalists as a nationalist is kinda hypocritical.. Farrakhan is a wanksta.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Eihtball on February 21, 2006, 07:49:12 AM
(since everyone else at this forum seems to want to make this an issue and a point of contention, let me state my position that I am an Orthodox Muslim and we don't subscribe to any of the tenets of nationalism, Farrakhan on the other hand, does represent black nationalism.  Still, with that being said, Farakhan considers himself a friend and brother to orthodox Muslims all over the world, and therefore many Muslims see him as a brother, even though he does have evident differences in philosophy)

I think a great point of contention is the fact that you're white.  I don't see why you'd consider him a "brother" when he'd call you a "blue-eyed devil".  The general consensus amongst most Muslims seems to be that the NOI (as well as the NGE) are not recognized as legitimate Muslim organizations.  You are definitely one of the exceptions.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 21, 2006, 03:00:44 PM
I think a great point of contention is the fact that you're white.  I don't see why you'd consider him a "brother" when he'd call you a "blue-eyed devil". 

farakkhan changed the noi doctrine (atleast the public message) about 10 years ago, around the time of the million man march.  he changed the message to be more inclusive, and when you hear him speak now he mentions and claims to speak for opressed people in general.  whites and jews included.   this was the reason for the split between farakkhan and khalid muhammad, khalid refused to accept the new focus.  in this talk, he specifically mentions individuals that have twisted judaism (which he praises) for their own [evil] purposes.

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The general consensus amongst most Muslims seems to be that the NOI (as well as the NGE) are not recognized as legitimate Muslim organizations.  You are definitely one of the exceptions.

atleast half this talk was about respect for islam in general, and especially in the middle east, and the threat that forces within the u.s. posed towards islam.  it was a message for muslims in general; not just for some specific sect.

i wonder if most of the public noi doctrine could be considered as a doctrine that includes some elements outside of islam, but is mostly based on islam.

the notion that farad muhammad was god incarnate is probably blasphemous, but farad is not worshipped in the human form at all.  revered, but not worshipped.

the nge doctrine (which i believe is based around the secret doctrine of the noi) i believe could be considered a very loose derivative of islam.  the phenomena of the noi and the nge being loosely based on islam is not unique, there are various religious sects across the world that are either loosely based on larger religions or blends of larger religions (blends of islam, christianity, hinduism...etc).

it's ironic that in this speech farakkhan mentions concerns of u.s. officials and members of the pnac indicating a desire to "reform" islam, which he categorized as corruption.

Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: virtuoso on February 21, 2006, 03:28:53 PM

Farrakhan seems like an extremely dangerous individual, this notion that he has somehow changed the nation of the islam's doctrine to be "inclusive" is as an absolute joke I believe. So what are we saying that at some point he somehow saw the light in a manner of speaking and realised he was wrong and that those arent his deep rooted feelings. This is just a public relations exercise, he still sees whites as devils and would like to massacre every white person, like I said he is an extremely dangerous individual, actually not a dangerous individual he is purely psychotic. No one is fooled by this idea that this idea that somehow doesnt suddenly absolutely despise white people this has just been a ploy to persuade moderate muslims and blacks who have been resistant to the movement to fully embrace it.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 21, 2006, 05:49:43 PM
Farrakhan seems like an extremely dangerous individual, this notion that he has somehow changed the nation of the islam's doctrine to be "inclusive" is as an absolute joke I believe.

there is the old saying "a leopard can't change his spots".   if you don't believe a person can change, that's fine.  what i'm saying is farrakhan has abandoned that "the white man is the devil" rhetoric for years.  if you read an unattributed transcript of his comments, you would believe that this is a man who was a black muslim concerned about muslims and blacks across the globe, and all people in general as well.

i don't know what is in his heart, only god knows what is in his heart.  i'm defending what he has said.   i can't speak to what is in his heart.

i think we can use allah's slave: abdul-infinite's comments as a guide.  he obviously didn't conclude that farrakhan was calling for the slaughter of all white people. 

the only time i've heard "farrakhan" and "white devil's" together in the last ten years is when his detractors rely on those old statements.

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No one is fooled by this idea that this idea that somehow doesnt suddenly absolutely despise white people this has just been a ploy to persuade moderate muslims and blacks who have been resistant to the movement to fully embrace it.

i think the unfortunate aspect of this is that there is great merit in farrakhan's message, and many people will dismiss him offhand because of his past track record.  if you look at the second half of his comments here, he's talking about holding john kerry accountable for both his domestic and foreign policy platforms.  no other credible black leaders on a national scale were making this appeal.  if you look at kerry's platform both domestically and foreign policy, many of these liberals would have been abhorred by the positions kerry was advocating.  yet all the black leaders had their pom pom's out behind the guy.  al sharpton was somewhat critical, but to a much more subdued extent.  the blacks in congress were behind their guy, along with jesse jackson.

and that is what i think is unfortunate.  if you can look past the statements farrakhan has made in the past that offended you, there is great merit in what he has to say today.

eihtball pointed out that the noi doctrine was largely rejected as heresy; many of the most deviant claims that the noi used to espouse (space aliens...etc) have been either abandoned or simply go unmentioned today.   yet the noi continues to be dismissed because of their past.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: virtuoso on February 21, 2006, 06:21:46 PM

Oh far from it I dont dismiss what he says, he speaks many truths and is obviously a very strong and influential figurehead but.....i am so deeply wary of his motives though and his underlying intentions. Of course I will admit this view is reinforced when I hear entire songs from rappers belonging to the NOI saying kill whitey whitey is evil crackas are devils etc and its so utterly sick. Then I have read on transcripts with other members of the NOI the same kind of mentality white devil white devil, not directed at certain individuals but on white people as a whole and then of course we have Dr Kambau who is also a well known member of the NOI saying during one of his recent uni lectures, the answer to our problems is to commit a genocide against every single white person, wipe them off the face off the earth literally. Now.....the media always seems to do everything in its power to keep this low key, you see that coupled with the fact that the actions of these members are never denounced by the leadership would suggest that such views meet with their approval.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 21, 2006, 07:11:12 PM
and then of course we have Dr Kambau who is also a well known member of the NOI saying during one of his recent uni lectures

dr. kamau kambon is not a member of the nation of islam.  much of the media incorrectly reported that he was a member of the nation of islam; in order to associate his statements with that group.

he has a pdf document defining "who he is" on his website.

http://www.blacknificent.com/
http://www.blacknificent.com/QandA.pdf

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I am neither a member of a fraternal, civic, religious, political, nor social group;
nor have I ever been a member of any cult, sect, gang, martial arts clubmilitary group, or any national or international movement of any kind

dr. kamau kambon does not claim to be noi. 

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you see that coupled with the fact that the actions of these members are never denounced by the leadership

khalid muhammad was kicked out of the noi because he refused to abandon that doctrine. 

half these rappers are not actually noi but are nge/five percenters, or nuwabians...etc.  farrakhan cannot control what the rappers say, you surely have older ice cube and kam and mc ren albums espousing the older message.  "made in america" and "kamnesia" progressively incorporated more elements of the updated beliefs.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Eihtball on February 21, 2006, 08:26:49 PM
I honestly don't believe Farrakhan has changed a whole lot.  When I read Malcolm X's speech after he came back from the Hajj, I could tell the brother was genuine and had completely changed his outlook.  But Farrakhan...dude has always struck me as being particularly good at telling people what they want to hear, and I remember how I used to buy into what he said myself.  But the thing is, he's most definitely all about business, and by the 80s', the AMM was stealing away a lot of the NOI's power and influence.  If anything, I think he's simply toned down the "blue-eyed devil" rhetoric because he realized that being public about it was bad for the NOI's image and lessened their chances of successful recruiting.  I have yet to meet one NOI member who didn't still hold those views, even today.

farrakhan cannot control what the rappers say, you surely have older ice cube and kam and mc ren albums espousing the older message.  "made in america" and "kamnesia" progressively incorporated more elements of the updated beliefs.

Yeah, but think about how closely he's associated himself with the hip-hop community since the days of Public Enemy and Ice Cube.  When Cube was making songs like "Horny Lil Devil" and "Cave Bitch" and all the conservatives were trying to get his music banned, Farrakhan was standing up for him, praising him for speaking the truth and telling NOI members that Cube was a good role model and shit like that.  I would say that at the very least, he was essentially condoning what these cats were sayin in their music.

You are right that shit has changed since the early-90s' and a lot of NOI/NGE rappers have stopped making references to "devils" in their music, but I think that's got a lot to do with getting paper as well.  Back then, hip-hop was still seen as music that appealed only to blacks (even though there were certainly a lot of white kids listening to it), and it wasn't until around the mid- to late-90s' that a lotta rappers started realizing that white kids were their biggest fans and consumers.  It's kinda strange to me that most white kids I meet today don't seem to be aware of what was said about them during hip-hop's Afrocentric/militant days, so I guess they were successful.

BTW, MC Ren is no longer in the NOI.

Farrakhan seems like an extremely dangerous individual

I wouldn't exactly say that.  For all of the NOI's threatening posturing and all their talk of Armaggedon, they're not at all like the KKK...that is, they don't try to get their way through acts of terrorism against white people.  The NOI may be a racist organization from an ideological standpoint, but they're not a violently racist organization.  If they were, they would have been declared a terrorist organization by now, as the KKK has been.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Infinite Trapped in 1996 on February 21, 2006, 09:19:42 PM
Many comments were said, I think it's been a beneficial discussion on both ends, props to Nibs for actually listening to the audio and also for providing us with useful insight and info.  I can't copy and paste everything so let me just comment on a few things that immediately come to mind.

-I wouldn't look at it so much as virtuoso said, as Farakhan "changing".  Rather, I think he is a man who is sincerely and deeply concerned with the plight of black people.  He is sincerely motivated towards uplifting oppressed people all over the world, and he is clearly very angry at imperialist perpetrated by America, Isreal, and Britian.  With that being said, he has many followers, he is looked upon as a spiritual leader of thousands of black men.  He takes this job very seriously.  He cares deeply for his followers.  It has been reported in different accounts, that when presented with the orthodox Islam question, Fard, Elijah, and Farakhan have held the mindset that their people "weren't quite ready for it yet" or that "they needed to be cleaned up" first, or that "there first has to be black unity before their can be any black/white unity."

...in other words, to make a long story short.  I don't think that Fard, Elijah, or Farakhan have changed their beliefs, I think it is more that they tend to give their followers what they are ready and prepared for.  As Elijah said once, "feed the babies milk, not meat."  In other words, what he is saying is these men just came into Islam from lives that many times have been very rough, and they are trying to feed their followers knowledge; piecemeal, slowly but surely developing their minds and their spirits.  Somehow, deep down I do believe that the ultimate goal and intent is for them to be unified with Muslims all over the world.

-Also, somebody on here tried to claim that Farakhan wanted to commit genocide against white people or something like that.  This is totally false.  He has told his followers that when they (non-white people) come to power, they don't want to be like the Jews and do the same thing to somebody else that they had done to them (meaning Jews persecuted by Hitler then persecuting the Palestinians.)

Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Shallow on February 21, 2006, 09:31:29 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Didn't Elijah believe that he himself was the prophet? All the Muslims I know (and I know a lot) have no respect or regard for him and say he would not be welcome by Orthdox Muslims or allowed to enter Mecca. Is this true?
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Don Jacob on February 21, 2006, 11:59:13 PM
didn't farrakkhan say he believed that white people were created by an evil scientist?


Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Infinite Trapped in 1996 on February 22, 2006, 01:16:38 AM
didn't farrakkhan say he believed that white people were created by an evil scientist?




You got to see the deeper psychology in all of this. You can't take everything for face value.  Understand their target audience.  The Nation of Islam doesn't usually find it's converts at Harvard, they find many of their converts in prison.  They are speaking to black men who have had their lives destroyed, black men who are x-gangsta's, drugdealers, and pimps.  Now, most people don't give a damn about black criminals, but what's special about Fard Muhammad, Elijah Muhammad, and Farrakhan is that they do give a damn about these black men who have had their lives destroyed.  For example, while the rest of the world turned their backs on O.J. Simpson and Micheal Jackson, the Nation of Islam still expressed love and concern for their situation, and they provided excellent security for them while they were going through trials.

Those are celebrity examples, but many are people nobody knows and nobody cares about who have found themselves caught up in the system.  Now that probably doesn't mean anything to all of you, but there are people out there who do care for the disenfranchised.

Have any of ya'll ever dealt with an addict before?  If you know anything, you don't tell them they are doing anything wrong, they will lash out at you.  They will not accept critisism.  However, if you tell an addict, a criminal, or a member of the disenfranchised why he is like he is, and you explain to him the environmental factors (such as 400 years of oppression, slavery, media manipulation of social norms and desires, white ownership of damn near everything) then you might have a chance of getting through to him.  Because you will remove the giult from his heart, and you will call him to action against the real source of his misery.  Then later, once you have cleaned up his self-image to a manageable level then you can teach him responsibility for his own actions, and insert other beneficial teachings.  But initially, you have to teach a struggling man that it isn't all his fault, we don't exist in a vacuum, mankind is inter-connected, their is a rhyme and reason to everything.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Teddy Roosevelt on February 22, 2006, 01:26:40 AM
didn't farrakkhan say he believed that white people were created by an evil scientist?




You got to see the deeper psychology in all of this. You can't take everything for face value.  Understand their target audience.  The Nation of Islam doesn't usually find it's converts at Harvard, they find many of their converts in prison.  They are speaking to black men who have had their lives destroyed, black men who are x-gangsta's, drugdealers, and pimps.  Now, most people don't give a damn about black criminals, but what's special about Fard Muhammad, Elijah Muhammad, and Farrakhan is that they do give a damn about these black men who have had their lives destroyed.  For example, while the rest of the world turned their backs on O.J. Simpson and Micheal Jackson, the Nation of Islam still expressed love and concern for their situation, and they provided excellent security for them while they were going through trials.

Those are celebrity examples, but many are people nobody knows and nobody cares about who have found themselves caught up in the system.  Now that probably doesn't mean anything to all of you, but there are people out there who do care for the disenfranchised.

Have any of ya'll ever dealt with an addict before?  If you know anything, you don't tell them they are doing anything wrong, they will lash out at you.  They will not accept critisism.  However, if you tell an addict, a criminal, or a member of the disenfranchised why he is like he is, and you explain to him the environmental factors (such as 400 years of oppression, slavery, media manipulation of social norms and desires, white ownership of damn near everything) then you might have a chance of getting through to him.  Because you will remove the giult from his heart, and you will call him to action against the real source of his misery.  Then later, once you have cleaned up his self-image to a manageable level then you can teach him responsibility for his own actions, and insert other beneficial teachings.  But initially, you have to teach a struggling man that it isn't all his fault, we don't exist in a vacuum, mankind is inter-connected, their is a rhyme and reason to everything.
So your gonna play games with the less advantaged by playing on their waeknesses so they'll beilive your religon/views of life? Either way you shouldn't say " white people were created by an evil scientist" unless you mean it, beacuse that's the same attitude behind the rascism African-Americans have encoutered over the the past 400 years.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Infinite Trapped in 1996 on February 22, 2006, 01:59:22 AM

So your gonna play games with the less advantaged by playing on their waeknesses so they'll beilive your religon/views of life? Either way you shouldn't say " white people were created by an evil scientist" unless you mean it, beacuse that's the same attitude behind the rascism African-Americans have encoutered over the the past 400 years.



You can sit here and second guess the teachings of Fard Muhammad if you like, but the bottom line is, you ain't out on the front lines, deep in the city trying to raise up a people who had been seperated from their continent, culture, way of life, and forced into slavery. 

What I was trying to explain is that I believe Fard Muhammad also didn't believe that white people were created by an evil scientist, but I think that out of his concern for black people living in oppression, he said certain things to reach them and get through to them, and then later they have steered the focus away from such teachings.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Eihtball on February 22, 2006, 07:11:18 AM
Now that probably doesn't mean anything to all of you, but there are people out there who do care for the disenfranchised.

Homie, I hardly think it's appropriate for a white man who (presumably) grew up middle class and whose sole connection with the black community is through Islam and hip-hop to lecture ME, of all people, on "caring for the disenfranchised".  The "disenfranchised" were the kinda people I grew up with...can you say the same?

As I've said in other threads, I've been down that road before in my life, thinking of Farrakhan as a personal hero and thinking of white people as "devils".  That was when I was an angry and rebellious young brother, but I done changed since.  So yeah, I care a lot about cats that grew up the same way I did (or worse) and want to change, but that doesn't mean I'd tell them to join the NOI and keep living in ignorance.  The AMM, sure, but not the NOI.

What I was trying to explain is that I believe Fard Muhammad also didn't believe that white people were created by an evil scientist, but I think that out of his concern for black people living in oppression, he said certain things to reach them and get through to them, and then later they have steered the focus away from such teachings.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said before: Farrakhan is good at telling people what they want to hear...in other words, preying on their ignorance.  And he's also been smart to align himself with entertainers that disenfranchised youth will listen to.  Either way, that doesn't excuse what he does.  And I can acknowledge that yeah, the NOI has had some positive impact on black communities.  I just don't like the way they're doing it.  The AMM has reached a lot of brothers, too (more than the NOI these days, in fact) in the black communities and in prison, without making references to devils and Yakub and shit like that.

As an orthodox Muslim, you should be deeply disturbed and offended by the NOI's separatist doctrine, which undermines the very prospect of universalism on which Islam was founded.  There's a very good reason that the majority of your fellow Muslims call the NOI's beliefs "Farrakhanism".  I think you need to just stop listening to Ice Cube and PE so much.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 22, 2006, 07:44:10 AM
Didn't Elijah believe that he himself was the prophet? All the Muslims I know (and I know a lot) have no respect or regard for him and say he would not be welcome by Orthdox Muslims or allowed to enter Mecca. Is this true?

this is their argument:
the qu'ran says two things.  
a) god sends a different messenger to all people
b) muhammad is the final messenger.

they interpret that last statement as relative to the arabs.  muhammad is the last messenger for the arab's, thus the qu'ran was delivered in arabic ot the arab people.  this leaves the possibility of other people getting their own messenger after muhammad.   surely orthodox muslims would find this as heresy.

farrakhan opens his speech here by referring to elijah mohammad as a prophet, and farad mohammad as god.

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didn't farrakkhan say he believed that white people were created by an evil scientist?

that early noi doctrine was in many ways a response to nazi germany's concept of the aryan race being a master race, and also the interest in eugenics at the time.  remember, it was nazi germany that claimed that the blonde haired, blue-eyed aryans were superior to all other races.  the noi responded with the claim that actually the aryan race was inferior and evil...etc.  taken in context, there was alot of debate about race, eugenics, and racial superiority.  the noi was making a counter argument; and the noi doctrine is really the only doctrine that has persisted to the present day.  this was not a completely frivilous debate;  it had been pervasive within the scientific community as well.

  
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Eihtball on February 22, 2006, 07:58:34 AM
that early noi doctrine was in many ways a response to nazi germany's concept of the aryan race being a master race

What's really interesting is that Elijah Muhammad once invited George Lincoln Rockwell, the founder of the American Nazy Party, to lecture at an NOI meeting.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 22, 2006, 08:06:42 AM
I honestly don't believe Farrakhan has changed a whole lot.  When I read Malcolm X's speech after he came back from the Hajj, I could tell the brother was genuine and had completely changed his outlook.  But Farrakhan...dude has always struck me as being particularly good at telling people what they want to hear, and I remember how I used to buy into what he said myself.  But the thing is, he's most definitely all about business, and by the 80s', the AMM was stealing away a lot of the NOI's power and influence.  If anything, I think he's simply toned down the "blue-eyed devil" rhetoric because he realized that being public about it was bad for the NOI's image and lessened their chances of successful recruiting.  I have yet to meet one NOI member who didn't still hold those views, even today.

malcolm x left the noi.  it was easy for him to completely renounce those beliefs.  louis farrakhan restarted the noi to get back to the teachings of elijah mohammad.  although he has toned down the message, it would be difficult for him to completely abandon the original message; it would be abandoning the very reason he restarted the noi.  thus his statements have to be more calculated.

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BTW, MC Ren is no longer in the NOI.

that's interesting.  i guess not surprising as the noi message has been toned down in his lyrics for a while now.

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What's really interesting is that Elijah Muhammad once invited George Lincoln Rockwell, the founder of the American Nazy Party, to lecture at an NOI meeting.

without question there is a history of anti-semitism within the noi.  all i'm saying is farrakhan has tried to abandon that message.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 22, 2006, 08:36:27 AM
As I've said in other threads, I've been down that road before in my life, thinking of Farrakhan as a personal hero and thinking of white people as "devils".  That was when I was an angry and rebellious young brother, but I done changed since.

what about farrakhan's message of self-reliance and self-discipline?  if you look at the speech originally linked, he's saying alot of good, positive things that i think you would agree with.  it's only the history of the noi that you are disagreeing with, not what he is saying now.

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As an orthodox Muslim, you should be deeply disturbed and offended by the NOI's separatist doctrine, which undermines the very prospect of universalism on which Islam was founded.

universalism...islam certainly accepts christianity and judiasm.  the qu'ran does say to fight against oppression and to be wary of the motives of non-believers that don't respect and preserve peace with the believers.  so the universalism seems to apply mainly to true believers of other faiths;  but not necessarily to oppressed people and their oppressors.  the separatism has evolved into this principle of blacks taking responsibility for their community, supporting black businesses...etc.  farrakhan has always embraced christianity; he used to be criticized for preaching more from the bible than the qu'ran.  he spoke very graciously in this speech here of true judiasm.

you are criticizing old doctrine.

Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Eihtball on February 22, 2006, 08:42:29 AM
malcolm x left the noi.  it was easy for him to completely renounce those beliefs.  louis farrakhan restarted the noi to get back to the teachings of elijah mohammad.  although he has toned down the message, it would be difficult for him to completely abandon the original message; it would be abandoning the very reason he restarted the noi.  thus his statements have to be more calculated.

The fact that he even restarted the NOI in the first place seems wrong.  Why not just follow W.D. Mohammed and support the AMM?

without question there is a history of anti-semitism within the noi.  all i'm saying is farrakhan has tried to abandon that message.

Doesn't mean he's sincere necesarily.

what about farrakhan's message of self-reliance and self-discipline?  if you look at the speech originally linked, he's saying alot of good, positive things that i think you would agree with.  it's only the history of the noi that you are disagreeing with, not what he is saying now.

Like I have said, I can admire that the NOI has done good, but I don't like the way they're doing it.

you are criticizing old doctrine.

I simply don't believe that doctrine isn't heavily instilled in NOI members to this day.  Every muh'fucka I've ever met who's NOI is still very much anti-white/anti-Semitic/separatist in the most literal way imaginable, not in a metaphorical context as you and Infinite are trying to place it.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 22, 2006, 09:05:51 AM
The fact that he even restarted the NOI in the first place seems wrong.  Why not just follow W.D. Mohammed and support the AMM?

it's my understanding that the amm simply decided to embrace orthodox islam.  the noi had more than a religious message, it had a political message that the amm probably would have stifled.  it's hard to maintain a political agenda that revolves around black empowerment and at the same time supporting an all inclusive religious agenda.  farrakhan now has allied and tries  tomore closely associates the noi with the larger muslim world, but at the same time the noi preserves it's agenda of black empowerment.

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I simply don't believe that doctrine isn't heavily instilled in NOI members to this day.  Every muh'fucka I've ever met who's NOI is still very much anti-white/anti-Semitic/separatist in the most literal way imaginable, not in a metaphorical context as you and Infinite are trying to place it.

let's take a step back.  the noi message is largely focused on black empowerment, and uplifting the black community.  i think we can agree that there is a level of inequality between the black community and the larger american community as a whole.  because the noi is focused on empowering the black community, there is that sense of neglecting the larger community as a whole.  it's not possible to focus on a sub-group without ignoring the larger community to an extent.  additionally, the noi believes that the u.s. government continues to be biased against blacks in many ways, and against the muslim world as well.  thus it calls for a rejection of american values & policies in many way.  "america is unjust".

do you agree with the noi's assessment of american policies and agenda's?  do you agree with the noi's desire for black empowerment?

what black leaders do you feel have a better message and do a better job to realize these goals?   i'd say there are few if any with the same level of visibility as farrakhan. 
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: virtuoso on February 22, 2006, 10:52:43 AM
Always good to read the views of you people, Nibs I didnt realise that Kambau wasnt a part of the NOI, so I will take your word on that one and renounce what I said. I agree with eighball though he seems to be just playing a game of window dressing, reveal the veil and there is a monster that lurks beneath. I would like to be proved wrong though because like I have already mentioned on many issues he does seem to be on the ball, but I liken his message to that of wild berries looks good smells good but the taste can kill you. Its his idealogy which I find disturbing perhaps not disturbing in the sense that he can orchestrate a genocide, as I believe most black people at least those with some kind of sense realise they are in a melting pot along with many whites and as such its the government and its bankrollers who are the enemy.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Teddy Roosevelt on February 22, 2006, 11:09:38 AM

So your gonna play games with the less advantaged by playing on their waeknesses so they'll beilive your religon/views of life? Either way you shouldn't say " white people were created by an evil scientist" unless you mean it, beacuse that's the same attitude behind the rascism African-Americans have encoutered over the the past 400 years.



You can sit here and second guess the teachings of Fard Muhammad if you like, but the bottom line is, you ain't out on the front lines, deep in the city trying to raise up a people who had been seperated from their continent, culture, way of life, and forced into slavery.

What I was trying to explain is that I believe Fard Muhammad also didn't believe that white people were created by an evil scientist, but I think that out of his concern for black people living in oppression, he said certain things to reach them and get through to them, and then later they have steered the focus away from such teachings.
Don't even sit there and act like you were. So you can;t even make that arguement. Like Eihtball said he's "preying on their ignorance" and just taking advanage of there unfortunate situation to recruit members to the NOI.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Crown on February 22, 2006, 01:06:02 PM
Many comments were said, I think it's been a beneficial discussion on both ends, props to Nibs for actually listening to the audio and also for providing us with useful insight and info.  I can't copy and paste everything so let me just comment on a few things that immediately come to mind.

-I wouldn't look at it so much as virtuoso said, as Farakhan "changing".  Rather, I think he is a man who is sincerely and deeply concerned with the plight of black people.  He is sincerely motivated towards uplifting oppressed people all over the world, and he is clearly very angry at imperialist perpetrated by America, Isreal, and Britian.  With that being said, he has many followers, he is looked upon as a spiritual leader of thousands of black men.  He takes this job very seriously.  He cares deeply for his followers.  It has been reported in different accounts, that when presented with the orthodox Islam question, Fard, Elijah, and Farakhan have held the mindset that their people "weren't quite ready for it yet" or that "they needed to be cleaned up" first, or that "there first has to be black unity before their can be any black/white unity."

...in other words, to make a long story short.  I don't think that Fard, Elijah, or Farakhan have changed their beliefs, I think it is more that they tend to give their followers what they are ready and prepared for.  As Elijah said once, "feed the babies milk, not meat."  In other words, what he is saying is these men just came into Islam from lives that many times have been very rough, and they are trying to feed their followers knowledge; piecemeal, slowly but surely developing their minds and their spirits.  Somehow, deep down I do believe that the ultimate goal and intent is for them to be unified with Muslims all over the world.

-Also, somebody on here tried to claim that Farakhan wanted to commit genocide against white people or something like that.  This is totally false.  He has told his followers that when they (non-white people) come to power, they don't want to be like the Jews and do the same thing to somebody else that they had done to them (meaning Jews persecuted by Hitler then persecuting the Palestinians.)


Peace!
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 22, 2006, 02:24:26 PM
most black people at least those with some kind of sense realise they are in a melting pot along with many whites and as such its the government and its bankrollers who are the enemy.

the noi message has been around since the 30's and 40's.  it predates the civil rights movement.  it's dealing with segregation/jim crow/lynchings.  segregation in the u.s., germany trying to create a master race in europe, apartheid in south africa...it was a doctrine born in that environment.

white people no longer openly claim to be superior to blacks.  you and eihtball suggest that farrakhan is secretly a racist that is looking for an opportunity to espouse those views.  i suggest that the noi used black superiority as a tool for expanding their message in the environment of the times.  a tool which is no longer necessary and farrakhan has abandoned.

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I believe most black people at least those with some kind of sense realise they are in a melting pot along with many whites and as such its the government and its bankrollers who are the enemy.

the problem with that notion is that america is supposed to be a democracy; so the government must reflect the majority of the population to some extent.  when looked at in context not only did the legislative branch of the government fail the black community during the civil rights era and earlier, but when the courts stepped in to right some of the wrongs you had protests & riots.  federal troops needing to be called in to stop the rioting.  in the context of of the period when that doctrine was developed, i don't think it's fair to only blame the government and not the people themselves.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: virtuoso on February 22, 2006, 02:26:37 PM
This was taken from a 1997 interview he held with meet the press, this is a major public u turn by him
TR: Elijah Muhammad also said that whites are blue-eyed devils. Do you believe that?

MLF: Well, you have not been saints in the way you have acted toward the darker peoples of the world and toward even your own people. But, in truth, Mr. Russert, any human being who gives themself over to the doing of evil could be considered a devil. In the Bible, in the Book of Revelation, it talks about the fall of Babylon. It says Babylon is fallen because she has become the habitation of devils. We believe that that ancient Babylon is a symbol of a modern Babylon which is America. America has become a land of people who want to do their own thing, and their own thing is in direct contravention and rebellion against the will of God, which makes any rebel against God an agent of Satan.

I am reading a much more recent interview with him and they are trying o ridicule him for saying jews control the media and the entertainment industry, lol jesus how dumb is anyone who would actually disagree that this isnt true  ::)
 The country, as you know, is riveted this weekend by the extraordinary spectacle of Tiger Woods, this 21-year-old Black man, who is s
setting a course on a once-segregated golf course in Georgia; that has won the admiration, apparently, of all of his fellow professionals, most of them white, of course. Do you think that he is somehow in the control of a group of Jews or other people, or what does that represent to you? I am laughing at the desperation of that question.

Btw I hear what you are saying Nibs but I dont know about that I mean I can only go on what I hear him say and what I have read him say but I will acknowledge that a lot of his public views at least in the last decadeish have been geared towards despising america being controlled by jews, he hasnt spouted pure hate for jews per sa in that time or at least i dont think he has.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: virtuoso on February 22, 2006, 06:11:39 PM


Another thing which I should have mentioned before which once again highlights so called pro black agenda is his unwavering support for the dictatorship in zimbabwe. Its amazing that if a black government is so called anti west then he embraces them despite their sickening crimes. He supports land being stolen from white zimbabweans, now however you try and paint this firstly a lot of white zimbabweans are third or fourth generation and have as much right to call themselves zimbabwean as anyone else, the farmers bought and paid for the land and now are told that you must leave this land or we will come and kill you, and in fact these so called war veterians who in actuality are mostly hired government thugs are doing just that. White people can't get jobs there anymore with the letters under the advertisements reading AA. Then there is the so called radio of zimbabwe which consists of regular bulletins which can only be described as hate speeches where mugabe is telling the white people to leave this land, they are being ethnically cleansed from a land which as I said is theirs.

Now history and the makeup of Zimbabwe tells us that the ruling party the Zanu PF are zulu, now its fact that Zulus arent the indigenous population of zimbabwe, the indigenous bushmen are in fact extremely marginalised, and live a very squalid life and yet still the propoganda is pushed that your white you dont belong here. So I think this underlines the racism that Farrakhan posesses. Then lets look at the aftermath of this land grabbing policy, the crops have all but stopped being produced and the reason? the land far from being given to poor black people is actually being divided into a cronyist policy whereby the police get their plots of land ministers theirs secret police theirs of course, these people have no intention of growing crops the land is to them just a status symbol. Keep in mind that this isnt some revelation and that farrakhan must therefore know all about what is going down after all as the conference and speech has underlined he is a very knowledgeable person, yet despite knowing he chooses to praise the government because its attacking white people.

This is a man who sees Thabo Mbeki as a great person even though the ANC was and always will be a communist party, there is nothing friendly honest or decent about these people. I remember reading an interview with an ANC politician who said they have no intention of tainting mandelas legacy but once he passes the white man is going to get it. I see television interviews where the ANC are fervently defending affirmative action and described the situation in which large swathes of the white population there that now cant get a job as necessary to readdress the balance. Seriously anyone who thinks this policy is ever going to change must also believe the moon is made from cheese, they are going to ethnically white people from that land whether they drive them out through degridation intimidation or massacre them.

So we have a man (farrakhan) who is all about his people empowering black people, even in the speech he refers to americans and our people as seperate, a man who embraces corrupt and wicked black leadership when those leaders oppress white people. 
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Dubz on February 22, 2006, 07:31:56 PM
i only listend to like 7 minutes, and Farr. was dropping bombs. thanks for the video.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Eihtball on February 22, 2006, 07:56:37 PM
it's my understanding that the amm simply decided to embrace orthodox islam.  the noi had more than a religious message, it had a political message that the amm probably would have stifled.  it's hard to maintain a political agenda that revolves around black empowerment and at the same time supporting an all inclusive religious agenda.  farrakhan now has allied and tries  tomore closely associates the noi with the larger muslim world, but at the same time the noi preserves it's agenda of black empowerment.

I dunno about political agenda, but by and large, most of the social programs sponsored by the AMM are lifted straight from the NOI (including the use of recruiting ex-cons and gangbangers).  Regardless, if Farrakhan has political aspirations, I don't see why he couldn't have done them under the AMM.  The AMM preaches self-respect and self-love as well.

Also, I don't see how the NOI associates itself much with other Muslims...aside from some trips to Saudi Arabia, the NOI has remained quite distant from the rest of the Muslim world, as best I can tell.

let's take a step back.  the noi message is largely focused on black empowerment, and uplifting the black community.  i think we can agree that there is a level of inequality between the black community and the larger american community as a whole.  because the noi is focused on empowering the black community, there is that sense of neglecting the larger community as a whole.  it's not possible to focus on a sub-group without ignoring the larger community to an extent.  additionally, the noi believes that the u.s. government continues to be biased against blacks in many ways, and against the muslim world as well.  thus it calls for a rejection of american values & policies in many way.  "america is unjust".

Again, it seems you're trying to tell me that the NOI's separatist doctrine must be interpreted metaphorically and not literally, and I ain't buying it.  I grew up with the firm understanding that the NOI operated under a very specific doctrine of black supremacy, and remembering the kinda people I used to know, I won't be convinced otherwise.

do you agree with the noi's assessment of american policies and agenda's?  do you agree with the noi's desire for black empowerment?

what black leaders do you feel have a better message and do a better job to realize these goals?   i'd say there are few if any with the same level of visibility as farrakhan. 

That's a broad question.  I've heard Farrakhan make some outrageous claims before, like saying that one of the levees that failed in New Orleans during Katrina was deliberately damaged to wipe out the black areas.  I can't agree with that.

I think I've made pretty clear by now that I believe the AMM should be the future for Black Muslims (and it is at this point, if membership is any indicator).
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 22, 2006, 08:43:03 PM
eihtball:
universalism...islam certainly accepts christianity and judiasm.  the qu'ran does say to fight against oppression and to be wary of the motives of non-believers that don't respect and preserve peace with the believers.  so the universalism seems to apply mainly to true believers of other faiths;  but not necessarily to oppressed people and their oppressors.  the separatism has evolved into this principle of blacks taking responsibility for their community, supporting black businesses...etc.  farrakhan has always embraced christianity; he used to be criticized for preaching more from the bible than the qu'ran.  he spoke very graciously in this speech here of true judiasm.

well, upon further research:

sura 49:13
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).


so the qu'ran definitely frowns on that sort of racial demagoguery that the noi engaged in.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Eihtball on February 22, 2006, 08:46:16 PM
well, upon further research:

sura 49:13
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).


so the qu'ran definitely frowns on that sort of racial demagoguery that the noi engaged in.

Yeah, I've never read the Qur'an in its entirety, but I couldn't imagine how orthodox Muslims could approve of the NOI's racial beliefs.  I mean, the NOI claims white people were created through selective breeding and are inherently "devilish"...
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: AndrE16686 on February 23, 2006, 07:12:32 AM
maybe the minister was too confronting for the white/confused black internet crowd, just check out the PFANAC website:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

its a group consisting of some pretty influential people like Cheney, Wolfowitz among others.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Shallow on February 23, 2006, 10:12:01 AM
eihtball:
universalism...islam certainly accepts christianity and judiasm.  the qu'ran does say to fight against oppression and to be wary of the motives of non-believers that don't respect and preserve peace with the believers.  so the universalism seems to apply mainly to true believers of other faiths;  but not necessarily to oppressed people and their oppressors.  the separatism has evolved into this principle of blacks taking responsibility for their community, supporting black businesses...etc.  farrakhan has always embraced christianity; he used to be criticized for preaching more from the bible than the qu'ran.  he spoke very graciously in this speech here of true judiasm.

well, upon further research:

sura 49:13
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).


so the qu'ran definitely frowns on that sort of racial demagoguery that the noi engaged in.

Who is the "We" that created us from the single pair?
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: virtuoso on February 23, 2006, 10:53:53 AM

 Farrakhan formed a separate group - the Nation of Islam -- which upheld Elijah Muhammad's original beliefs. These beliefs range from the creation of whites by an evil Black scientist to the "The Great Decisive Battle in the Sky," in which a space ship will bomb the earth, destroying white people and bringing in a new world.
Can someone confirm if this is true?, and if it is true then surely you cant believe that such a deep belief of hate, of belief that white people are sub human can suddenly disappear from his mindset
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Kassem on February 23, 2006, 02:21:09 PM
noi and orthodox islam are opposing to each other in every way
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 23, 2006, 02:33:08 PM
Yeah, I've never read the Qur'an in its entirety, but I couldn't imagine how orthodox Muslims could approve of the NOI's racial beliefs.  I mean, the NOI claims white people were created through selective breeding and are inherently "devilish"...

two things.

a) after having read the qu'ran, i find it interesting how many of kam's lyrics were direct adaptations of  scripture.

b) what the noi did was turn the religious struggle in the qu'ran between the believers and non-believers into a racial struggle.  the qu'ran is very harsh on non-believers:

sura 60:1
O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love, even though they have rejected the Truth that has come to you, and have (on the contrary) driven out the Prophet and yourselves (from your homes), (simply) because ye believe in God your Lord! If ye have come out to strive in My Way and to seek My Good Pleasure, (take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love (and friendship) with them: for I know full well all that ye conceal and all that ye reveal. And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path.


the qu'ran goes on to state that non-believers are in-fact led by devils (evil jinns):
sura 43:36
If anyone withdraws himself from remembrance of (God) Most Gracious, We appoint for him an evil one, to be an intimate companion to him.


different translation:
sura 43:36
And he whose sight is dim to the remembrance of the Beneficent, We assign unto him a devil who becometh his comrade;


the noi twisted the message of the qu'ran to apply to their racial struggle.  the qu'ran ofcourse allows disbelievers to repent and renounce their ways, and their evil jinn companions can also accordingly renounce those old ways accordingly...the noi is less flexible.

all i'm suggesting is that their message is not as absurd as you claim, they simply twisted islam to apply to their desires.  the twisting was clearly blasphemous.  they've now abandoned those older blasphemous positions.  



Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 23, 2006, 02:46:37 PM
sura 49:13
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

Who is the "We" that created us from the single pair?

god and the angels most likely.  the qu'ran states in many places that this world cannot withstand god's direct presence; mountains crumble...etc.

sura 7:143
When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." God said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."


thus it would not be surprising if god's works were carried out through a delegate (the angels).
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Shallow on February 23, 2006, 04:09:21 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


So I guess that means means that according to that God would need "partners" to get certain things done. (Infinite will love that theory). I don't get why a being that can do anything and everything wouldn't be able to come to Earth if he wanted to. I don't expect an answer, nor do I have one myself. Like my pal Jesus said; don't worry about figuring out the universe and how it works because that knowledge is out of reach for people that can't even figure out each other. That's the gist of it anyway.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 23, 2006, 04:45:30 PM
So I guess that means means that according to that God would need "partners" to get certain things done. (Infinite will love that theory). I don't get why a being that can do anything and everything wouldn't be able to come to Earth if he wanted to.

that theory was probably incorrect.

sura 38:71-76
71) Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:
72) "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
73) So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together:
74) Not so Iblis: he was haughty, and became one of those who reject Faith.
75) (God) said: "O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"   
76) (Iblis) said: "I am better than he: thou createdst me from fire, and him thou createdst from clay."


i included the latter three verses as i find them informative.

i apologize for my previous theory which was clearly poorly researched as to the creation of man.  the more detailed explanation of the creation of man above indicates that it was god acting on his own.

additionally, anything that the angels do on behalf of god would not equate them equal to god or partners to god.  they are not.  when communities are destroyed for disbelieving their warners, whether through storm, flood, or fire; does that make these things now partners to god?  his manifestations acting on his will.      
the qu'ran clearly states, as you suggest, that anything god wants done he can simply say "be" and it will be done.

i'm sure infinite would agree that your pal, jesus, has said many wise things; and only disagree with you as to whether or not jesus was a god, or god's son.
   
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Shallow on February 23, 2006, 09:59:14 PM
   
the qu'ran clearly states, as you suggest, that anything god wants done he can simply say "be" and it will be done.
   


There it is; ANYTHING God wants done can be done. So if God wanted an equal, God would have an equal. Now I am not using this to prove that Jesus was his equals because it does not prove that, but it does prove that you (not you presonally) cannot disprove the possibility that Jesus could be an equal. Infinite tries so hard to to do so and it's pointless. I have no problem with Infinite's faith, and have no reason or intention to change that faith. I also never try and disprove the Quran or Muhammad. Obviously as a Christian I have to believe that what is taught in the Quran with regards to Jesus is a lie, much like every Muslim has to believe that what is said in the Gospel with regards to Jesus is a lie; the whether he is the son of God part. I do not KNOW whether either is a lie, and do not care to try and prove it because I cannot.

My reasons for staying with Christianity as opposed to converting to Islam or any other religion is that Christianity suited me, and I didn't find anything in the Gospel that I found personally wrong, (the Gospel, not the Letters of Paul). In Islam I find it wrong that a man can marry several wives but a woman is not allowed to (if I have this wrong then please correct me). I do not use this or anything similar to it as a way to recruit or convert people. It's just my personal view on how I want to live my life. The sooner Infinite understands that he cannot ever fully understand what is really true and what is not and accepts that his life is based on faith that personally suits him, the better off we'll all be, himself included.

As for the partners; I disagree with you. God does have partners in the angels and even the prophets, just because they are not equal to him does not mean they are not partners. You can have a dance partner and lead her the entire way. She is not your equal on the dance floor but she is still your partner. (You can reverse roles with so it doesn't appear sexist).


P.S. My Jesus reference was was brought in to show how I felt on the idea of figuring out the universe and I didn't want to take credit for it so I stated where I got from. I wasn't trying to push Jesus's wisdom in any way. Not that you were implying I was, I just wanted to make it clear to anyone reading.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 25, 2006, 11:04:09 AM

There it is; ANYTHING God wants done can be done. So if God wanted an equal, God would have an equal. Now I am not using this to prove that Jesus was his equals because it does not prove that, but it does prove that you (not you presonally) cannot disprove the possibility that Jesus could be an equal.

you are taking that statement out of context.  in context it's stating that god can do whatever he pleases with his creation simply be saying be.  that is to say he can raise the dead as easily as he initially created man.  that is to say he cause a woman to be pregnant with similar ease.  reduce mountains to dust with merely his presence.  it does not speak to whether god can create other gods, or even what "other gods" means.

if you are looking for a doctrine that supports the notion of god creating other gods; i wouldn't look towards the qu'ran.  something like hinduism and the vedic texts directly supports that notion, the qu'ran does not.

Quote
Obviously as a Christian I have to believe that what is taught in the Quran with regards to Jesus is a lie, much like every Muslim has to believe that what is said in the Gospel with regards to Jesus is a lie; the whether he is the son of God part.

actually, there are many christian sects that do not worship christ as god, but regard him as a prophet.  i think the only question is whether the doctrine of the trinity is a corrupted doctrine.   this isn't just qu'ran vs christianity, it's also christianity vs christianity. 

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In Islam I find it wrong that a man can marry several wives but a woman is not allowed to (if I have this wrong then please correct me).

this is a very interesting objection to raise.  it would be one thing to object to anything other than pure monogamy; but your notion that this is imbalanced seems short sighted. 
men and women are different.  the qu'ran specifies that the man must provide for each of those families, having these weird cross marriages with men sharing wives would complicate that.  in terms of procreation one man can have multiple women pregnant at once, whereas one woman can only bear the seed of one man at a time.  all of the children of one mother have the same father, and in that sense they are all equal. 
this is not unlike abraham having isaac and ishmael by separate wives.  jacob's sons were of atleast two wives (leah & rachel).

this is just preserving traditions.

Quote
As for the partners; I disagree with you. God does have partners in the angels and even the prophets

we don't have to argue the definition of partners.  the qu'ran states god does not have equals.  the qu'ran instructs you to worship your creator.  even if there were other god's or others equal to god, if you decide to worship them then on the last day you had better be certain that your gods will intercede on your behalf to save you.  this is all the qu'ran is saying.

the mother of john the baptist was old and barren.  how could her husband have fertilized one of her eggs if she had no eggs to fertilize.  surely john the baptist should be regarded in the same light as jesus?  why isn't john also considered the son of god? 
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Shallow on February 25, 2006, 06:52:38 PM
I have no need to debate you. I believe what I belive and you belive what you believe. That was my point from the beginning.

To answer some of your points;


When I read something like God can do anything I take it as that. Anything, with out limitations. I never said said God created an equal an that equal was Jesus. I am just saying if God can do anything then he could create an equal. If the Quran limits the statement by saying God can do anything with those he creates then he still should be able to make them equals. Whether he would or not is a different story.


The only sect I know that believes that is Unitarian Christianity, which is a very small number. There are currently only 217,000 Unitarians in the UUA and only a small percentage of them consider themselves to be Christian. So there really isn't much of a "vs." between nearly 2 billion and a percentage of 217,000. I just wanted to make sure that the idea that Jesus is God is not something debated by Christians in general.


The marriage thing was just 1 example of why I am Christian, and in no way was said in order to make others Christian. I disagree with the inequality that a man is permitted to have multiple wives and woman is not permitted to have multiple husbands. Of course a gay man could argue to me that it isn't okay for a man to marry a man but it is okay for a man to marry a woman, and my beliefs may not suit that man and he is free to belive what ever he likes. As are you.


I think the partners thing we agree on so there is no need to get into that. I think you agree that he has partners or allies but they are not equal to him.


As for John the Baptist; that's a very easy one when answering from a Christian perspective. Gabriel came to Zacharias and told him that Elizabeth would bear him a son. Jospeh was visted by Gabriel after Mary was pregnant and he was told that child that had been conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit. Also as it states in the Gospel of John; I the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Everything that came into being came through him, (the Word). In him was life and it was the light of men. John was sent  as a witness to this light so that all could believe through him. But John was not the light. The light was coming. He (the light) was in the world and the world was made though him. The Word (which is where the light is in) became flesh and dwelt among us.

John the Baptist even testified "He who comes after me hasa higher rank than I, for he existed before me".

From a Christian point of view there is no way to confuse Jesus and Jon as being of the same essence. Christians who argue that Jesus never said he was the Son of God or anything of that nature muxt belive that the written Gospel is a lie and if it lies about that then it can lie about anything.

What I wonder about is if the Church did indeed change the written Gospel to includ ethe part about the Trinity then why would they keep it in a way that they contradict it so much. Why wouldn't they just change the Bible altogether so that everything the Church does is in the Gospel. Why wouldn't they make Jesus say that a Church will be built in my name and you must go every Sunday and give money? It doesn't make sense to me. (Of course the conspiracy theorist in me would say they purposely go against certain aspects so that people like me can use the argument I use to believe in the Trinity, although that doesn't seem logical even to me, yet it may to others).

Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 25, 2006, 07:45:52 PM
I have no need to debate you. I believe what I belive and you belive what you believe. That was my point from the beginning.

i'm not debating your beliefs, i'm discussing the facts.

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When I read something like God can do anything I take it as that. Anything, with out limitations.

what i'm saying is that you would be taking those statements in the qu'ran out of context to suggest they implied god could create an equal for himself.  those statements were about what a creator could do with his creation.  if a video game designer can do whatever he wishes in his video game world, that does not mean he can create an equal to himself.  what i was pointing out was that the statements in the qu'ran did not support your conclusion.  they don't deny your conclusion either.

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The only sect I know that believes that is Unitarian Christianity, which is a very small number.

the jehovah's witness sect also does not believe jesus was god, or in the trinity in general.  many of the early jewish christian sects, like the ebionites, did not regard jesus as god.   it's been argued that the notion of the trinity was something paul invented while teaching the gentiles, and not something that was widespread among early christians who were jewish.  but gained popularity as the gentile christian presence expanded. 
there are something like 6 million jehovah's witnesses.

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I just wanted to make sure that the idea that Jesus is God is not something debated by Christians in general.

there is dissent.  the argument which islam makes and millions of christians believe is that the notion of the trinity is a corruption to the original message and teachings of christ.

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As for John the Baptist; that's a very easy one when answering from a Christian perspective. Gabriel came to Zacharias and told him that Elizabeth would bear him a son. Jospeh was visted by Gabriel after Mary was pregnant and he was told that child that had been conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit.

all i'm saying is that the circumstances from a technical standpoint are largely the same.  seeing as elizabeth was infertile and old, either god did some cloning and stole the dna from elizabeth and zacharias or it was a miraculous act.  just like jesus.  with joseph, clearly he needs an explanation for why the woman he hasn't touched will give birth.  all zacharias needed was word that his wife would bear him a child.

i'm not saying that john the baptist and jesus were of equal rank.  god's angels have rank iirc; although their nature is the same.

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Christians who argue that Jesus never said he was the Son of God or anything of that nature must belive that the written Gospel is a lie and if it lies about that then it can lie about anything.

i have no doubt that early christian sects had many different texts and scriptures from what people have now, that the catholic church put together.  and without question the emphasized different teachings and scriptures differently.  the christian bible has changed and the manner in which it was put together raises some questions in itself.

the modern sects that i've mentioned simply question whether jesus was divine and the trinity.   the jehovah's witnesses claim he was an angel who god infused into human-kind. 
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Shallow on February 25, 2006, 08:20:45 PM
1.) What facts? We're talking about religion and faith. If anything we discuss is factual then there would be a lot less athiests around. There aren't even any "facts" that show if Jesus even existed. Which is why some argue he was a fictional creation.

2.) I wasn't talking just about the Quran. I was using the basic idea of God as someone who can do anything and and everything using simple logic it is safe to assume that he could create an equal. There is nothing that states he can't so I say he can, but we agree on this because I also would say there is no proof that he can.


3.) I didn't think Jehovah's Witnesses considered themselves Christian.


4.) If the Trinity is something made up by Paul to recruit gentiles and Jesus never said he was God then why did the Jewish leaders turn on him and reject him? Or was that made up by Paul too. There has to be a reason why they rejected him. Let's look at it from an early Christian perspective who supposedly beleved in him as a prophet who never claimed to be God; wouldn't they wonder why he was crucified. Even if you believe it was only because he was creating a movement the Romans didn't like and they decided to crucify him (which in itself doesn't make sense to me since he Jesus actually told people to pay their taxes), it doesn't explain why the Jews would turn away from him and his teachings.

Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Infinite Trapped in 1996 on February 26, 2006, 12:43:10 AM


Yeah, that's exactly what I said before: Farrakhan is good at telling people what they want to hear...in other words, preying on their ignorance.  And he's also been smart to align himself with entertainers that disenfranchised youth will listen to.  Either way, that doesn't excuse what he does.  And I can acknowledge that yeah, the NOI has had some positive impact on black communities.  I just don't like the way they're doing it.  The AMM has reached a lot of brothers, too (more than the NOI these days, in fact) in the black communities and in prison, without making references to devils and Yakub and shit like that.

As an orthodox Muslim, you should be deeply disturbed and offended by the NOI's separatist doctrine, which undermines the very prospect of universalism on which Islam was founded.  There's a very good reason that the majority of your fellow Muslims call the NOI's beliefs "Farrakhanism".  I think you need to just stop listening to Ice Cube and PE so much.


Let me make another attempt at explaining myself.

-The Nation of Islam has served as a bridge for so many people towards true Islam, including some of the best American Muslims like Malcolm X aka El-Hajj Malik Shabazz.  The Nation of Islam also influenced me towards Islam when I was growing up.  People don't realize how many white people actually benefit from the teachings of the Nation of Islam.  Does this sound strange?  It shouldn't.  Because white people have also gone through the similar conditioning that black people have gone through.  White people are also plaqued with a substance abuse, media manipulation, and a loss of identity; which are issues the Nation of Islam focuses upon.  The government, the capatalist system, and other media forces want to control the thinking of the masses.  They use fear and other dirty tactics to control the population.  When you can control a person, he is easier to sell too.  You'll know what he does before he does it.  Governments, for centuries have been interested in controlling the masses and keeping them ignorant. 

There are 100's of examples but let me give you one simple example to illustrate what I'm saying.  Alcohol.  Now, when Elijah Muhammad encountered a drunk, he would tell them that it isn't the black man who brought liquor to America (as a means of removing some of the giult) and then follow that up pointing out that the white man owns the liquor companies.   So in other words, whether you are white or black you can benefit from these teachings.  How?  Because you begin to realize that their are people who have a vested, economic interest in keeping you ignorant and drunk.  There are people out there who's livelihood's depend on people staying drunk.  And you know what else, their profits actually go up in times of depression.  People drink more when they are depressed.

Now... as for me being an orthodox Muslim you think I should be outraged about them saying that Fard Muhammad is what Christians know as the Savior or Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Well, that makes sense to them.  Because if your a black man lost in the wilderness of America, crawling around in the gutter of all types of ignorance, and some man comes to your people and raises you up and makes you feel like a human being again, then ofcourse your going to identify that man as being your savior.  Why wouldn't you?

Next point.  Fard never said he was God, Jesus, or the Savoir.  This is something Elijah started teaching after Fard had left.  The Nation is slowly moving away from those teachings. 

Last point.  Notice they say that Fard is what Christians know as the second coming of Jesus; and what Muslims know as the Mehdi.  So therefore, they are only explaining it in language Christians can understand, but for Muslims he only represents a man, a human, not a savior or a God.  Just a man, known as the Mehdi, a figure in some Muslim traditions who comes and gives victory to the Muslims at the end of times.

Understand where I'm coming from yet?
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: nibs on February 26, 2006, 09:28:21 AM
1.) What facts? We're talking about religion and faith.

there are facts.  what the various doctrines state are matters of fact.  how those dotrines have been changed and reinterpretted are also maters of fact.

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3.) I didn't think Jehovah's Witnesses considered themselves Christian.

they do.  they think extremely highly of christ.  the equate christ to the highest of god's angels.  they consider him to be a greater being than humans, whose teachings and life should be studied and emulated.  but not worshipped as he was not god.

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4.) If the Trinity is something made up by Paul to recruit gentiles and Jesus never said he was God then why did the Jewish leaders turn on him and reject him? Or was that made up by Paul too. There has to be a reason why they rejected him.  Let's look at it from an early Christian perspective who supposedly beleved in him as a prophet who never claimed to be God; wouldn't they wonder why he was crucified.

jesus claimed to be the messiah; which his followers accepted.  a large part of the jewish community expected their messiah to be a king who would lead the jews/israelites in overthrowing and defeating their enemies and reestablishing that israeli kingdom; as had been done in the past.  jesus teachings in that manner contradicted their interpretation of prophesies and their expectations of what a messiah should be.  thus they called him a blasphemer and rejected him. 
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Shallow on February 26, 2006, 11:04:04 AM
What about the facts was it cannot be proven if the information in them is factual and you also cannot prove how they have been changed. Facts for me involve proof. Faith does not involve proof.


I know that Jehovahs Witnesses look highly upon Jesus I just didn't think if you were to ask one "are you a Christian?" they they would answer yes. I'll have to ask some and find out.


For the Jews to turn on Jesus just because he had different plans on what the Messiah was supposed to do doesn't say to me that they wanted him dead and it doesn't show blashpemy. Of course most Jews may claim he didn't claim that, but they also claim they had nothing to do with the crucifixion. So right there we have two very different views about something that historical may not have happened. There is no fact, just faith.


Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Crown on March 01, 2006, 11:44:23 AM


Another thing which I should have mentioned before which once again highlights so called pro black agenda is his unwavering support for the dictatorship in zimbabwe. Its amazing that if a black government is so called anti west then he embraces them despite their sickening crimes. He supports land being stolen from white zimbabweans, now however you try and paint this firstly a lot of white zimbabweans are third or fourth generation and have as much right to call themselves zimbabwean as anyone else, the farmers bought and paid for the land and now are told that you must leave this land or we will come and kill you, and in fact these so called war veterians who in actuality are mostly hired government thugs are doing just that. White people can't get jobs there anymore with the letters under the advertisements reading AA. Then there is the so called radio of zimbabwe which consists of regular bulletins which can only be described as hate speeches where mugabe is telling the white people to leave this land, they are being ethnically cleansed from a land which as I said is theirs.

Now history and the makeup of Zimbabwe tells us that the ruling party the Zanu PF are zulu, now its fact that Zulus arent the indigenous population of zimbabwe, the indigenous bushmen are in fact extremely marginalised, and live a very squalid life and yet still the propoganda is pushed that your white you dont belong here. So I think this underlines the racism that Farrakhan posesses. Then lets look at the aftermath of this land grabbing policy, the crops have all but stopped being produced and the reason? the land far from being given to poor black people is actually being divided into a cronyist policy whereby the police get their plots of land ministers theirs secret police theirs of course, these people have no intention of growing crops the land is to them just a status symbol. Keep in mind that this isnt some revelation and that farrakhan must therefore know all about what is going down after all as the conference and speech has underlined he is a very knowledgeable person, yet despite knowing he chooses to praise the government because its attacking white people.

This is a man who sees Thabo Mbeki as a great person even though the ANC was and always will be a communist party, there is nothing friendly honest or decent about these people. I remember reading an interview with an ANC politician who said they have no intention of tainting mandelas legacy but once he passes the white man is going to get it. I see television interviews where the ANC are fervently defending affirmative action and described the situation in which large swathes of the white population there that now cant get a job as necessary to readdress the balance. Seriously anyone who thinks this policy is ever going to change must also believe the moon is made from cheese, they are going to ethnically white people from that land whether they drive them out through degridation intimidation or massacre them.

So we have a man (farrakhan) who is all about his people empowering black people, even in the speech he refers to americans and our people as seperate, a man who embraces corrupt and wicked black leadership when those leaders oppress white people. 

AMERICA SUPPORTED THE FORMER APARTIED REGIME IN SOUTH AFRICA.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: virtuoso on March 01, 2006, 11:57:33 AM

2 Things, what is happening now is actually worse than what occured under the apartheid and secondly regardless of that when did I ever  say i support the u.s government. What i am illustrating is simply this....people like farrakhan may seem good justly people but then like I just pointed out there is a twisted angle and motive to these people. Furthermore he tried to paint new orleans as not harming white people whatsoever, what complete bullshit. The rich areas of the city which were unscathed by the flood had the troops kicking their doors in to seize their weapons. Were talking about old people having their homes kicked in to take their weapons from them illegally. He ignores all this though and instead oh we have to empower black people the government is after black people so it just creates this illusion that white people arent being oppressed and thus angers black people when they think abut white people and how they have got it so good. In other words he just feeds on peoples ignorance.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Crown on March 02, 2006, 05:29:16 AM

2 Things, what is happening now is actually worse than what occured under the apartheid and secondly regardless of that when did I ever  say i support the u.s government. What i am illustrating is simply this....people like farrakhan may seem good justly people but then like I just pointed out there is a twisted angle and motive to these people. Furthermore he tried to paint new orleans as not harming white people whatsoever, what complete bullshit. The rich areas of the city which were unscathed by the flood had the troops kicking their doors in to seize their weapons. Were talking about old people having their homes kicked in to take their weapons from them illegally. He ignores all this though and instead oh we have to empower black people the government is after black people so it just creates this illusion that white people arent being oppressed and thus angers black people when they think abut white people and how they have got it so good. In other words he just feeds on peoples ignorance.

I have mixed feelings when it comes to both Farrakhan and Amerikka. I dont agree with the statement that what is happening now (in S.A.) being worst than aparthied. Both situations are f'd up tho.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Crown on March 02, 2006, 05:42:57 AM
1.) What facts? We're talking about religion and faith. If anything we discuss is factual then there would be a lot less athiests around. There aren't even any "facts" that show if Jesus even existed. Which is why some argue he was a fictional creation.

2.) I wasn't talking just about the Quran. I was using the basic idea of God as someone who can do anything and and everything using simple logic it is safe to assume that he could create an equal. There is nothing that states he can't so I say he can, but we agree on this because I also would say there is no proof that he can.


3.) I didn't think Jehovah's Witnesses considered themselves Christian.


4.) If the Trinity is something made up by Paul to recruit gentiles and Jesus never said he was God then why did the Jewish leaders turn on him and reject him? Or was that made up by Paul too. There has to be a reason why they rejected him. Let's look at it from an early Christian perspective who supposedly beleved in him as a prophet who never claimed to be God; wouldn't they wonder why he was crucified. Even if you believe it was only because he was creating a movement the Romans didn't like and they decided to crucify him (which in itself doesn't make sense to me since he Jesus actually told people to pay their taxes), it doesn't explain why the Jews would turn away from him and his teachings.



If you are truely interested check out the Arius debate to find out when the GOD Father/SON teaching came about, and the Council of Nice in the year 325 A.D. to find out when Christian trinitarian theology was founded. About 300 years after Jesus's and his apostles. Also called Nicean Council of 325.
Note: Constintine did not become a baptized Christian until his deathbed, but presided over one of the most important debates in the history of Christianity and most likely created this rift which manifest itself today as the Christian/Islam debate.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Shallow on March 02, 2006, 08:04:28 AM
What makes Arius anymore of an authority on what Jesus was over any Trinitarian at the time? He wasn't with Jesus at anytime since he was born over 200 years after Jesus was gone. Like I said; there is no way to prove one over the other. You just have to choose what you want to believe. Prove to me that an angel was speaking to Mohammad in the cave and he wasn't just writing it himself by taking existing texts and reworking them to suit him, or doing the bidding of those in power to create a rift. You can't, but you can choose to believe it is real, and that's fine. There is no room for proof in faith, because it then ceases to be faith.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Crown on March 02, 2006, 03:08:59 PM
What makes Arius anymore of an authority on what Jesus was over any Trinitarian at the time? He wasn't with Jesus at anytime since he was born over 200 years after Jesus was gone. Like I said; there is no way to prove one over the other. You just have to choose what you want to believe. Prove to me that an angel was speaking to Mohammad in the cave and he wasn't just writing it himself by taking existing texts and reworking them to suit him, or doing the bidding of those in power to create a rift. You can't, but you can choose to believe it is real, and that's fine. There is no room for proof in faith, because it then ceases to be faith.
I am not arguing with you I was just pointing out that the trinity was not an established christian doctrine until 325. If you choose to go along with the trinity so be it, but Constintine was a shady dude governing over these councils, and NEVER being baptized until his deathbed. Makes me doubt some of these so-called Christian "truths" that his council injected into Christianity that is foreign to judaism (b4 Christ), and Islam (after Christ). I am not a Muslim, but I agree with some things they say. I am with Jesus teaching, I just dont believe every single thing that organized religion, Jew, Christian or Islam says.
Title: Re: Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...
Post by: Shallow on March 02, 2006, 06:56:02 PM
What makes Arius anymore of an authority on what Jesus was over any Trinitarian at the time? He wasn't with Jesus at anytime since he was born over 200 years after Jesus was gone. Like I said; there is no way to prove one over the other. You just have to choose what you want to believe. Prove to me that an angel was speaking to Mohammad in the cave and he wasn't just writing it himself by taking existing texts and reworking them to suit him, or doing the bidding of those in power to create a rift. You can't, but you can choose to believe it is real, and that's fine. There is no room for proof in faith, because it then ceases to be faith.
I am not arguing with you I was just pointing out that the trinity was not an established christian doctrine until 325. If you choose to go along with the trinity so be it, but Constintine was a shady dude governing over these councils, and NEVER being baptized until his deathbed. Makes me doubt some of these so-called Christian "truths" that his council injected into Christianity that is foreign to judaism (b4 Christ), and Islam (after Christ). I am not a Muslim, but I agree with some things they say. I am with Jesus teaching, I just dont believe every single thing that organized religion, Jew, Christian or Islam says.

You make it sound that Constatine made up the idea of Christianity. Even some of the biggest opposers say it was brought forth by Paul. I don't defend the trinity so much as I defend the possibility of it. Too many people make it sound like it can't be a possibility. I'm more than open to the idea that it isn't. I just belive that it is. if Jesus were to return and say the Trinity is something made up then I'd believe that. I'm open to any religion being the right one, and none of them being real.