West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: sonofisis on December 19, 2006, 09:30:19 PM
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Ok, from my understanding Muslim people don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.. They continuously deny his crucifixion and claim that he was of the flesh, a mere mortal and nothing more than a prophet.. Yet, at the same time Muslims do admit that Christ was born of immaculate conception and came str8 from the father. It took me a while to find a contradiction in Islam but I did with out even having to pick up a Koran! It is so blatant and obvious. This is my question to all Muslims and those who have some knowledge of the Koranic and Biblical scripture.
Man was born into Sin because of the deeds of our ancestors Adam and Eve correct? For this reason we are all cursed with Sin and have to either over come it through belief in Christ(the Christian way) or through submission to Allah's will(the Islamic way) correct? So if you believe this, can you agree that Christ wasn't of Sin since he was not of Adam? And how can Christ not be the Son Of God if he had no earthly father? Who's son was he then? I don't understand the Islamic teachings, what are they trying to say? Wouldn't it be more logical to just accept that Christ was the Son Of God then to assume that he just didn't have a father? If you believe that the Holy Spirit fertilized Mary's seed, wouldn't that make God his literal father? It would of made more sense if Muslims simply denied Jesus' immaculate birth, then you might have a flawless religion on your hands. But in this aspect everything falls apart because this is the basis of Islam that sets it apart from Christianity.
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from my understanding, we believe it to be a miracle just as there has been many different miracles
another point which one speaker brought up was that Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God since he had no father; but they do not believe Adam is the brother of God who had no father OR mother
anyways, my best suggestion would be to check a site like http://www.al-islam.org out; it has a section about the difference in the beliefs and the reasoning
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And how can Christ not be the Son Of God if he had no earthly father? Who's son was he then? I don't understand the Islamic teachings, what are they trying to say?
Wouldn't it be more logical to just accept that Christ was the Son Of God then to assume that he just didn't have a father?
If you believe that the Holy Spirit fertilized Mary's seed, wouldn't that make God his literal father?
It would of made more sense if Muslims simply denied Jesus' immaculate birth, then you might have a flawless religion on your hands. But in this aspect everything falls apart because this is the basis of Islam that sets it apart from Christianity.
In your argument you're already implying that Christ's birth was an immaculate one, a miracle so to say, which is what Muslims believe. Now stop and think for a second... why else would it be referred to as a miracle birth, if not for the reason that he was born to a virgin. The miracle is: he had no father.
By what you're saying, the simple fact that Jesus is even believed to have been born to a virgin can be considered illogical, so why would you acknowledge that but then consider the fact that people don't asrcibe a father to him as illogical.
By what you're saying... Adam = the son of God as well... except in this case God is both his mother and father.
Also, how do you explain Jesus being both the son of God and then at the same time, he is God.
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And how can Christ not be the Son Of God if he had no earthly father? Who's son was he then? I don't understand the Islamic teachings, what are they trying to say?
Wouldn't it be more logical to just accept that Christ was the Son Of God then to assume that he just didn't have a father?
If you believe that the Holy Spirit fertilized Mary's seed, wouldn't that make God his literal father?
It would of made more sense if Muslims simply denied Jesus' immaculate birth, then you might have a flawless religion on your hands. But in this aspect everything falls apart because this is the basis of Islam that sets it apart from Christianity.
In your argument you're already implying that Christ's birth was an immaculate one, a miracle so to say, which is what Muslims believe. Now stop and think for a second... why else would it be referred to as a miracle birth, if not for the reason that he was born to a virgin. The miracle is: he had no father.
By what you're saying, the simple fact that Jesus is even believed to have been born to a virgin can be considered illogical, so why would you acknowledge that but then consider the fact that people don't asrcibe a father to him as illogical.
By what you're saying... Adam = the son of God as well... except in this case God is both his mother and father.
Also, how do you explain Jesus being both the son of God and then at the same time, he is God.
Completely different. What I am claiming as illogical is the belief that men don't accept Jesus as God's son when he obviously avoided Sin from Adam's curse.. Nothing God himself does is illogical for he is the creator..The Adam is God's son argument doesn't work, because he was made from the earth(an earthly creature) and according to scripture Adam and Eve actually were perfect, with out blemish, yet God gave them free will and after they ate the forbidden fruit, of course they were subjected to sin and forsaken by God. Plus, no one claims Adam to be the Messiah, he had no purpose other than to live his life freely.. Muslims also agree that Jesus was the Messiah, he was in the prophecy. How do you believe this and not accept that he was the true Son, the one with out Sin, sent here as a gift to man kind? Again, that is still illogical.
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Man was born into Sin because of the deeds of our ancestors Adam and Eve correct? For this reason we are all cursed with Sin and have to either over come it through belief in Christ(the Christian way) or through submission to Allah's will(the Islamic way) correct? So if you believe this, can you agree that Christ wasn't of Sin since he was not of Adam?
youre making an incorrect assumption. muslims dont believe man was born of sin. we believe man is born pure and clean. there fore your entire post is baseless
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Being the messiah doesn't equate to being the "son of God".
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Man was born into Sin because of the deeds of our ancestors Adam and Eve correct? For this reason we are all cursed with Sin and have to either over come it through belief in Christ(the Christian way) or through submission to Allah's will(the Islamic way) correct? So if you believe this, can you agree that Christ wasn't of Sin since he was not of Adam?
youre making an incorrect assumption. muslims dont believe man was born of sin. we believe man is born pure and clean. there fore your entire post is baseless
I admit that to be an assumption, yet n still, how can you explain believing in his divine birth and not equate that to being God's son? Who was his father then? If you know how to read you'd see that was the basis to my whole argument/point, not sin..
Being the messiah doesn't equate to being the "son of God".
Again, that wasn't my main point..
Edit: C'mon ya'll, don't go now! Engage, I want to know what you guys mean. Obviously the Adam is God's son thing doesn't hold up and the only thing you got going for you is simply saying that the birth was a miracle.. Still doesn't explain where he came from, and why he wouldn't be God's direct Son? It's illogical to believe that he has no father rather than to believe that God was his actual father since the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary.. What good reason do Muslims have to deny Yeshua? And how can Muslims not believe that Man is born into sin? What kind of custom made religion is this? How can you believe the creation story of Adam and Eve(or am I assuming again?), and not believe in the curse of Adam? It's like Islam tries to customize everything around their belief that Jesus was not Son Of God, how can you only believe part of God's word and throw the other parts out?
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Yea your initial assumptions are from christian teachings....There is no such thing as we're sinned forever cuz of adam&eve and how can christ be born without a father. Its ridiculous to believe such a thing, thats why christianity is not a logical religion to muslims but who am I to be judging...
Mohammad's miracle was by far more impressive....He was an ILLETERATE shepherd and he got his message from God during the nights when he used to take the sheep out. Then he was able to recite it off the top of his head and that how Koran was writtern. He narrated it and people wrote it. Now you can say he was just bullshitting but to this day, it was one of the best and well written books of the arabic language. So how could an illeterate person of 40 years old be able to do that??
Now think abou that ^^^ for a second. ;)
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Yea your initial assumptions are from christian teachings....There is no such thing as we're sinned forever cuz of adam&eve and how can christ be born without a father. Its ridiculous to believe such a thing, thats why christianity is not a logical religion
This is where you lose my friend, because this is not an assumption and I know for a fact that Muslims believe this and not Christians. Muslims believe that Christ was born with out a father, Christians believe God was the father.. And The Old Testament is flawless, this is where the Adam and Eve story comes from. Most Muslims have a problem with the New Testament, I've watched many debates where they've stated this. And for all I know Mohammed was a false prophet, how we know he just didn't copy shit from the Bible and made all that other shit up?
And the first guys that responded to me ran away and I'm tired of waiting on a good response so I'll be back in the morning to debate this. Please don't feel threatened, I am simply trying to understand where Islam is coming from... Please leave your opinion and I will respond in the morning, if you have a good answer I will be forced to accept it, but I doubt that will happen, but maybe someone will prove me wrong. I'll be back.
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Ok, let's ignore what Tech said about man not being born of sin, since your main question is basically why Muslims don't accept Jesus as the son of God.
The phrase "Son of God" was used throughout the Bible to refer others besides Jesus... (ex: King David, the prophet Ezekial, Daniel, the Jewish people as whole being called the "children of God", etc)... it's evident that Jesus isn't the only being referred to as the son of God, and is therefore not to be taken in the literal sense that you're trying to imply... unless David, who had biological parents, is also literally the son of God, implying he has 2 daddies. In addition, there are several verses in the Bible which quote Jesus referring to God as "your father" or "our father" when he's talking to the people. There's no difference between saying "my father" or "our father", so there's no way to derive that Jesus is in fact implying he's literally the Son of God.
Exod 4:22-23 "Let my son go that he may serve me. Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."
Psalm 2:7 "Jehovah had said onto me, thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." (me = David)
If you have some proof that Jesus is the Son of God in a different sense than the one being ascribed to all the other examples, then I'd like to see some proof of why. Does Jesus say "I was born to a virgin, therefore God is my daddy"?
I'm assuming you don't actually believe that God came to earth in the human form, had sex with Mary, impregnated her, and bounced.
Again, you don't make sense when you say that the Muslim belief in Jesus being born to a virgin but not being the literal son of God is illogical, just because it's not the same as the Christian belief. Your argument holds no ground. You saying "How can Muslims believe..." isn't a very convincing argument. I can just as easily say "How can Christians believe....", but it wouldn't mean shit. To me it seems that rather than trying to ask why Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the son of God, you're actually trying to debate the idea of the trinity itself. If that's the case, let me know because right now you're not saying shit.
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Ok, let's ignore what Tech said about man not being born of sin, since your main question is basically why Muslims don't accept Jesus as the son of God.
The phrase "Son of God" was used throughout the Bible to refer others besides Jesus... (ex: King David, the prophet Ezekial, Daniel, the Jewish people as whole being called the "children of God", etc)... it's evident that Jesus isn't the only being referred to as the son of God, and is therefore not to be taken in the literal sense that you're trying to imply... unless David, who had biological parents, is also literally the son of God, implying he has 2 daddies. In addition, there are several verses in the Bible which quote Jesus referring to God as "your father" or "our father" when he's talking to the people. There's no difference between saying "my father" or "our father", so there's no way to derive that Jesus is in fact implying he's literally the Son of God.
Exod 4:22-23 "Let my son go that he may serve me. Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."
Psalm 2:7 "Jehovah had said onto me, thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." (me = David)
If you have some proof that Jesus is the Son of God in a different sense than the one being ascribed to all the other examples, then I'd like to see some proof of why. Does Jesus say "I was born to a virgin, therefore God is my daddy"?
I'm assuming you don't actually believe that God came to earth in the human form, had sex with Mary, impregnated her, and bounced.
Again, you don't make sense when you say that the Muslim belief in Jesus being born to a virgin but not being the literal son of God is illogical, just because it's not the same as the Christian belief. Your argument holds no ground. You saying "How can Muslims believe..." isn't a very convincing argument. I can just as easily say "How can Christians believe....", but it wouldn't mean shit. To me it seems that rather than trying to ask why Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the son of God, you're actually trying to debate the idea of the trinity itself. If that's the case, let me know because right now you're not saying shit.
This is just my way at finding truth bruh, I am trying to debate, but at the same time I have no stance, so what I say might come off as weird I guess.. Notice I'm the same dude that made this thread about Christianity:
http://www.dubcnn.com/connect/index.php?topic=129771.0 I'm not atheist. I know that I have an unorthodox way at attaining knowledge, but I get more answers this way. I'm just trying to determine which religion is right for me because at this point in time, neither one makes sense to me. What I am trying to say is this..
Ok, I am perfectly aware that God referred to others as his sons, just never took it literally since we are all God's children, that was referring to us being his creation. Now, there is plenty evidence in the Bible pointing to the "fact" that Jesus was God's one true Son.. For example:
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)
"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves." (John 14:11)
Also, if Muslims truly believe Christ was not God's Son, then where does it say that he committed sin anywhere in the Bible or Koran? What sin was this that Jesus committed? Because all men are eventually sinners(if you believe in the curse or not).. As far as God coming here and having sex with Mary, why should God be reduced to human actions? He willed himself upon Mary and put a piece of him into her, that's the whole basis of the trinity, Jesus was the Yoke inside the egg shell, yet was released in order to relieve man kind of sin, only to return back inside the shell after his purpose was done(metaphor). And truly what I am saying is illogical is that Muslims believe in the immaculate birth, that he was the Messiah, and everything else that the Bible claims, but when it comes to these little minute details like the crucifixion and his divinity, you reject that. This goes back to me saying why do Muslims accept part of God's word and throw the other parts out? I know, a lot of you don't consider the Bible to be God's full true word(as it was supposedly changed by man), but why believe a "prophet" who comes 600 years later just because he says so? Doesn't this same prophet preach hatred towards the Jews? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still learning, but I read verses that seemed hateful to me towards Jews.
I'm not gonna badger anyone anymore about this, please just give me your answer.. I plan on making a decision soon and end my confusion about religion.
And thank you for your responses bro, I appreciate them.. The other dudes obviously got scared off, like King Tech and just wanted to nit pick about one thing and drive off. That's petty, this is train of thought, I'm not here to argue or intimidate, I'm here to learn, If I'm misguided, simply enlighten me. Some people simply don't possess the wit, knowledge, or intelligence to engage in such conversation appropriately I guess(Basically King Tech Quadafi).
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^ shut up u queer, youre admittedly a confused person seeking knowledge. am i supposed to waste my time towards teachin you? you door knob. what interest do i have in answering your monkey ass's question, which by the way is retarded. its like a 3 yr old boy crying cuz i wont play wit him, fuck off and keep my name out of your mouth,
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1. Whether he sinned or was sinless, I don't know, but if he was sinless, that doesn't automatically make him the Son of God... however, now that you clarified your trinitarian view, I shall continue from there, since there's no point in debating with apples and oranges, since you yourself understand the Muslim viewpoint on the corruption of Jesus' teachings.
2. So now explain, in a "logical" manner how Jesus was both God and the Son of God.
(Deuteronomy 6:4) "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one."
(Mark 12:29) "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."
- Jesus himself says the Lord is one, not three.
- He refers to God as "our God", clarifying that he too is part of God's creation, not that he is God.
(Mark 10:18) "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone."
- If Jesus doesn't even consider himself "good", and since God is perfect, why would anyone put him on the same level as God?
- He says "God alone"; don't you think that Jesus would know whether or not he was "part of God", or did God create him without him knowing this? I mean then again, if God created him, and he's a creation of God, then how is he God?
(John 20: 15-18) "Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
(Revelations 3:12) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
- Jesus refers to God as "my God"... so now God has a God?
(Isaiah 11:1-3) "A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears"
- Jesus has fear of the Lord, yet he is God, so now God is scared of himself? Wait, God has fear?
Now let me ask you this, why did for thousands of years the prophets before Jesus not teach the people about the trinity? Further, wouldn't Jesus (aka God) not be able to make it clear to his own people? I mean I don't even know how you can ask why Muslims reject the trinity, if there are Christians who reject it. The word trinity doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible, yet it's the central part of the faith to many Christians. I would think God would surely emphasize something like this, don't you?
(Luke 10:25-28)
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
- When Jesus was directly asked salvation, why didn't he then mention that salvation was achieved by accepting him as the Lord and Savior? He basically repeated what had been told to Moses before him.
(Matthew 15:9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
(Matthew 7:22-23) "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
- That's pretty much self-explanatory. Jesus doesn't like trinitarians LOL.
---- I can basically go on and on about shattering this trinity myth, but I don't wanna use up too much time, and am gonna proceed to answer the rest of your questions.
3. You ask why believe a "prophet" who comes 600 years later... my question is why not? Maybe for the same reasons that people accepted Jesus?
(Genesis 17:20) "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation."
- I don't think I need to tell you who the descendants of Ishmael are.
(Matthew 21:43) "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
- Even Jesus knew about the Muslims.
--- A whole 'nother discussion/debate can be made for why Jesus was accepted, and why Muslims have accepted Muhammad, but that wasn't the main point of your question, so I'll leave it at that.
4. Quick question... do you agree or disagree that the Bible has been corrupted through the ages? I mean you must have studied how/when the books were compiled... that certain ones were "left out", etc. It is estimated that there were about 24,000 letters, of which about 30 were "selected" by the church (which we can agree is not divinely inspired in any way, so how did they choose what the word of God is, and what isn't?)
We can get into the historical aspect of things, and talk about Constantine, and the church's role. We could talk about the simple fact that things are lost in translation, and if we were to look at the original Aramaic texts, we'd see the word Allah all over the place.
Have you read or even heard of the Gospel of Barnabes?
Check this to see the number of different canons throughout time:
http://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/canons.htm (http://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/canons.htm)
If the church doubts the reliability of certain gospels, then how are they divine?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9-20;&version=31; (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9-20;&version=31;)
Was the Gospel of John even written by John?
(John 1:19) "And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?"
(John 1:26) "John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not"
(John 3:24) "For John was not yet cast into prison."
--- I guess not. It was written about John, not by John. Big difference. Christian theologians are also unsure about the authors of the Gospel of Joshua, the book of Judges, the book of Ruth, books 1 and 2 of Samuel, books 1 and 2 of Kings, the book of Esther, the book of Job, etc.
Was Jesus crucified on a cross?
(Acts 5:29-31) "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins."
(Acts 10:38-40) "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
(Acts 13:28-30) "And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead"
(1 Peter 2:23-25) "Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously; Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
--- Did it happen on a cross or on a tree?
Excerpt from The Apocalypse of Peter (which was widely accepted by the early Christians, but "kept out of the Bible"):
""Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will be put to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you, O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed, for the invisible one has opposed them."
When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"
The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."
But I, when I had looked, said "Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place." But he said to me, "I have told you, "Leave the blind alone!" And you, see how they do not know what they are saying. For the son of their glory instead of my servant, they have put to shame."
And I saw someone about to approach us resembling him, even him who was laughing on the tree. And he was filled with a Holy Spirit, and he is the Savior. And there was a great, ineffable light around them, and the multitude of ineffable and invisible angels blessing them. And when I looked at him, the one who gives praise was revealed. And he said to me, "Be strong, for you are the one to whom these mysteries have been given, to know them through revelation, that he whom they crucified is the first-born, and the home of demons, and the stony vessel, in which they dwell, of Elohim, of the cross, which is under the Law. But he who stands near him is the living Savior, the first in him, whom they seized and released, who stands joyfully looking those who did him violence, while they are divided among themselves. Therefore he laughs at their lack of perception, knowing that they are born blind. So then the one susceptible to suffering shall come, since the body is the substitute. But what they released was my incorporeal body. But I am the intellectual Spirit filled with radiant light. He whom you saw coming to me is our intellectual Pleroma , which unites the perfect light with my Holy Spirit."
"These things, then, which you saw you shall present to those of another race who are not of this age. For there will be no honor in any man who is not immortal, which has shown that it is able to contain him who gives his abundance. Therefore I said, "Every one who has, it will be given to him, and he will have plenty." But he who does not have, that is, the man of this place, who is completely dead, who is removed from the planting of the creation of what is begotten, whom, if one of the immortal essence appears, they think that they possess him - it will be taken from him and be added to the one who is. You, therefore, be courageous and do not fear at all. For I shall be with you in order that none of your enemies may prevail unto you. Peace be to you, Be strong!"
----- Again we have the question of whether Jesus really was crucified or if Peter knew what was really happening... then we have this last part I highlighted... he stated that another race of another time will know what Peter knew about the event... and I'll end it here.
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^^1. I understand that if Jesus was sinless that still doesn't prove him to be God's Son, but what would that make him? Just some perfect man?
2. The trinity doctrine is hard to explain logically, but what I understand is that he's God's "begotten" son that was never created. Never made, he was always here as a part of God. In other words he's God's sperm(don't take that literally).. That Sperm was released into Mary and grew into a human child, yet while he was human he walked among Sin, so God had to separate from the Son at that particular time, this is why he forsook Jesus and left him to die because Jesus carried the world's sin. But after his mission was complete he returned back into the father.. This is how I understand it.
3. See, when you give all of those quotes and ignore the ones I've provided, it doesn't prove that Jesus wasn't God's son and/or God, it simply proves that the Bible contradicts its self(which I can admit).. For example, what do you think about this quote?
John 5:7: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word(Jesus), and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one."
other quotes that counter yours..
John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives them life to whom he is pleased to give it."
John 8:23-24: "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins."
Colossians 2:9: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"
John 8:58 "'I tell you the truth', Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am"
Also, the one of your quotes that you used to disprove his Godly nature and purpose, actually affirms it.. It referred to him as the Savior... Unless I have a misconception of that word(not being sarcastic), a Savior is the one in whom we achieve salvation.. Seeing as how the Bible is missing scripture, what good reason is there to accept the Koran say if someone rejects the Bible? Because I may not understand a lot of the biblical quotes, but I am open to believe that many there's a different way to interpret it. Like Jesus claiming that the father is greater than he, maybe because he was separate from God at that moment that he was in the flesh.
Time for realism though, and this is the end of my debate about Islam, just one more question. Believe it or not I think you're doing a great job at quoting the Bible and pointing out its flaws, but answer these two questions.
Why is Islam selective? Why does Islam choose to only accept the quotes that show evidence against divinity, but not acknowledge the evidence in favor of it?
And, Who exactly was Mohammed? In your opinion why would God wait almost 600 years to reveal his true word to a guy that seemed as if he hated Jews(Hadith verses supposedly quote Mohammed as hating Jews). And There are verses in the Qur'an that refer to Christians and Jews as Apes and Swines.. Give me a good answer for that and you may have a convert on your hands, because I will openly admit the Bible's flaws and contradictions. After this though I'm going to consult a preacher( or whatever you guys call them) at a near by Mosque.. I've just been lazy lately.
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1. A prophet spreading God's word.
2. You said it yourself... the trinity is hard to explain logically... it's illogical and contradicting.
3. That was exactly what I was trying to point out... that the Bible contradicts itself. You ask why Islam is "selective"... think about it, this is common sense... if you admit that the Bible contradicts itself (and I'm going to stick to the idea of the trinity when we're speaking here and nothing else), and all the other prophets delivered the message of "ONE GOD", why would Islam focus and accept those quotes saying Jesus is God (which contradict other quotes to begin with)? You have to look at several things here. Most importantly, the holy scriptures are full of metaphors, and things are often lost in translation. In addition, historically we can see the manipulation of the bible. You quoted the Book of John there, the church doesn't even know who this was written by... so what's divine about it? The Qur'an simply reaffirms the same message that been brought to the people before by all the other prophets.... worshipping none other than God. Basically, if you already agree that the Bible is contradicting, there really is no point in taking this any further... the idea of God contradicting himself is ridiculous.
Even in the Bible we read that Jews have transformed the true message of God:
(Jeremiah 8:8) "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" - NIV Bible
The same quote from The Revised Standard Version (since there are so many different versions of this "divine" book) "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie."
4. Muhammad was a prophet and messenger just like all the others before him... a mortal man just like they were. Your next question is really an irrational one. Why would you ask ME why God waited 600 years? It's not like God had delivered the wrong message to all the prophets before Muhammad, the message was simply distorted, manipulated, which is evident in the Bible's contradictions and falsehoods.
(The Qur'an 5:60) "Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from God? those who incurred the curse of God and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"
- if you read the whole verse/chapter, this is in reference to the people's defiance during Moses' time.
Now compare it to this in the Bible (also referring to the punishment of those during Moses' time):
(Numbers 14:10-12) "But the whole assembly talked about stoning them. Then the glory of the LORD appeared at the Tent of Meeting to all the Israelites. The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them? I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they."
(Numbers 14:22-24) "not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times- not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their forefathers. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it."
(Numbers 16:29-30) "If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually happens to men, then the LORD has not sent me. But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt."
--since we know that the Bible has been misinterpreted, and the fact that both scriptures contain many metaphorical representation... it can be concluded that both are referring to pretty much the same thing, and the difference in wording can be ascribed to many different things... for example, what if God really did turn them into apes and swines... since they were no longer to be seen, people assumed that they simply disappeared...even today we use the phrase "did the earth open up and swallow them?" when we talk about someone we haven't seen in a long time.
As for the hadiths... they're accounts by different people, some true, some false (kinda like the Bible)...and don't supercede the Qur'an. I can easily pull numerous quotes from the Bible that can be considered racist, even showing Jesus as being racist (which is another thing Muslims consider to be falsehood in the Bible), etc... I don't know what it is that you're specifically asking at the end there... so if you have any further questions just let me know... and I'm not trying to have you convert ,nor am I trying to bash Christianity... I admire the true, core beliefs and ideals of the faith, but simply believe, or know rather, that the scripture has been corrupted.
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Ok, from my understanding Muslim people don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.. They continuously deny his crucifixion and claim that he was of the flesh, a mere mortal and nothing more than a prophet.. Yet, at the same time Muslims do admit that Christ was born of immaculate conception and came str8 from the father. It took me a while to find a contradiction in Islam but I did with out even having to pick up a Koran! It is so blatant and obvious. This is my question to all Muslims and those who have some knowledge of the Koranic and Biblical scripture.
Man was born into Sin because of the deeds of our ancestors Adam and Eve correct? For this reason we are all cursed with Sin and have to either over come it through belief in Christ(the Christian way) or through submission to Allah's will(the Islamic way) correct? So if you believe this, can you agree that Christ wasn't of Sin since he was not of Adam? And how can Christ not be the Son Of God if he had no earthly father? Who's son was he then? I don't understand the Islamic teachings, what are they trying to say? Wouldn't it be more logical to just accept that Christ was the Son Of God then to assume that he just didn't have a father? If you believe that the Holy Spirit fertilized Mary's seed, wouldn't that make God his literal father? It would of made more sense if Muslims simply denied Jesus' immaculate birth, then you might have a flawless religion on your hands. But in this aspect everything falls apart because this is the basis of Islam that sets it apart from Christianity.
You need to step outside of that box you're in. There was no immaculate conception and no virgin birth. Christianity and Islamic teachings are no different in that they are BOTH based on the perceptions of other men and not some divine inspiration.
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Ok, from my understanding Muslim people don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.. They continuously deny his crucifixion and claim that he was of the flesh, a mere mortal and nothing more than a prophet.. Yet, at the same time Muslims do admit that Christ was born of immaculate conception and came str8 from the father. It took me a while to find a contradiction in Islam but I did with out even having to pick up a Koran! It is so blatant and obvious. This is my question to all Muslims and those who have some knowledge of the Koranic and Biblical scripture.
Man was born into Sin because of the deeds of our ancestors Adam and Eve correct? For this reason we are all cursed with Sin and have to either over come it through belief in Christ(the Christian way) or through submission to Allah's will(the Islamic way) correct? So if you believe this, can you agree that Christ wasn't of Sin since he was not of Adam? And how can Christ not be the Son Of God if he had no earthly father? Who's son was he then? I don't understand the Islamic teachings, what are they trying to say? Wouldn't it be more logical to just accept that Christ was the Son Of God then to assume that he just didn't have a father? If you believe that the Holy Spirit fertilized Mary's seed, wouldn't that make God his literal father? It would of made more sense if Muslims simply denied Jesus' immaculate birth, then you might have a flawless religion on your hands. But in this aspect everything falls apart because this is the basis of Islam that sets it apart from Christianity.
You need to step outside of that box you're in. There was no immaculate conception and no virgin birth. Christianity and Islamic teachings are no different in that they are BOTH based on the perceptions of other men and not some divine inspiration.
JML, I'll respond to you in one second.. @ Merovigian, how the hell am I stuck in a box? Are you serious or was this the wittiest line that you could come up with? If anything I'm trying to expand my perception of Islam by asking questions, what type of idiot are you for that statement? So I guess the 1.6 Billion Christians world wide are stuck in a box also? And mind you, I'm not a Christian! You look like an asshole when you assume..
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This is just something interesting I noticed:
(Genesis 17:3) "And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him saying..."
(Joshua 5:14) "...And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship..."
(1 Samuel 20:41) "...(David fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times..."
(Numbers 14:5) "...Moses and Aaron fell on their faces..."
(1 Kings 18:39) "...they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God"
(Matthew 26:39) "And he(Jesus) went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed..."
All praying and worshipping God in the same way Muslims have been instructed to.
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Ok, from my understanding Muslim people don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.. They continuously deny his crucifixion and claim that he was of the flesh, a mere mortal and nothing more than a prophet.. Yet, at the same time Muslims do admit that Christ was born of immaculate conception and came str8 from the father. It took me a while to find a contradiction in Islam but I did with out even having to pick up a Koran! It is so blatant and obvious. This is my question to all Muslims and those who have some knowledge of the Koranic and Biblical scripture.
Man was born into Sin because of the deeds of our ancestors Adam and Eve correct? For this reason we are all cursed with Sin and have to either over come it through belief in Christ(the Christian way) or through submission to Allah's will(the Islamic way) correct? So if you believe this, can you agree that Christ wasn't of Sin since he was not of Adam? And how can Christ not be the Son Of God if he had no earthly father? Who's son was he then? I don't understand the Islamic teachings, what are they trying to say? Wouldn't it be more logical to just accept that Christ was the Son Of God then to assume that he just didn't have a father? If you believe that the Holy Spirit fertilized Mary's seed, wouldn't that make God his literal father? It would of made more sense if Muslims simply denied Jesus' immaculate birth, then you might have a flawless religion on your hands. But in this aspect everything falls apart because this is the basis of Islam that sets it apart from Christianity.
You need to step outside of that box you're in. There was no immaculate conception and no virgin birth. Christianity and Islamic teachings are no different in that they are BOTH based on the perceptions of other men and not some divine inspiration.
JML, I'll respond to you in one second.. @ Merovigian, how the hell am I stuck in a box? Are you serious or was this the wittiest line that you could come up with? If anything I'm trying to expand my perception of Islam by asking questions, what type of idiot are you for that statement? So I guess the 1.6 million Christians world wide are stuck in a box also? And mind you, I'm not a Christian! You look like an asshole when you assume..
Dont mind our good friend, Meningitis... he's not telling you to step outside of a box because you're asking questions about Islam... but rather because he thinks people are dumb for following any of these religions... that's his opinion, which is fine.
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1. A prophet spreading God's word.
2. You said it yourself... the trinity is hard to explain logically... it's illogical and contradicting.
3. That was exactly what I was trying to point out... that the Bible contradicts itself. You ask why Islam is "selective"... think about it, this is common sense... if you admit that the Bible contradicts itself (and I'm going to stick to the idea of the trinity when we're speaking here and nothing else), and all the other prophets delivered the message of "ONE GOD", why would Islam focus and accept those quotes saying Jesus is God (which contradict other quotes to begin with)? You have to look at several things here. Most importantly, the holy scriptures are full of metaphors, and things are often lost in translation. In addition, historically we can see the manipulation of the bible. You quoted the Book of John there, the church doesn't even know who this was written by... so what's divine about it? The Qur'an simply reaffirms the same message that been brought to the people before by all the other prophets.... worshipping none other than God. Basically, if you already agree that the Bible is contradicting, there really is no point in taking this any further... the idea of God contradicting himself is ridiculous.
Even in the Bible we read that Jews have transformed the true message of God:
(Jeremiah 8:8) "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" - NIV Bible
The same quote from The Revised Standard Version (since there are so many different versions of this "divine" book) "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie."
4. Muhammad was a prophet and messenger just like all the others before him... a mortal man just like they were. Your next question is really an irrational one. Why would you ask ME why God waited 600 years? It's not like God had delivered the wrong message to all the prophets before Muhammad, the message was simply distorted, manipulated, which is evident in the Bible's contradictions and falsehoods.
(The Qur'an 5:60) "Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from God? those who incurred the curse of God and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"
- if you read the whole verse/chapter, this is in reference to the people's defiance during Moses' time.
Now compare it to this in the Bible (also referring to the punishment of those during Moses' time):
(Numbers 14:10-12) "But the whole assembly talked about stoning them. Then the glory of the LORD appeared at the Tent of Meeting to all the Israelites. The LORD said to Moses, "How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the miraculous signs I have performed among them? I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they."
(Numbers 14:22-24) "not one of the men who saw my glory and the miraculous signs I performed in Egypt and in the desert but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times- not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their forefathers. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it."
(Numbers 16:29-30) "If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually happens to men, then the LORD has not sent me. But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt."
--since we know that the Bible has been misinterpreted, and the fact that both scriptures contain many metaphorical representation... it can be concluded that both are referring to pretty much the same thing, and the difference in wording can be ascribed to many different things... for example, what if God really did turn them into apes and swines... since they were no longer to be seen, people assumed that they simply disappeared...even today we use the phrase "did the earth open up and swallow them?" when we talk about someone we haven't seen in a long time.
As for the hadiths... they're accounts by different people, some true, some false (kinda like the Bible)...and don't supercede the Qur'an. I can easily pull numerous quotes from the Bible that can be considered racist, even showing Jesus as being racist (which is another thing Muslims consider to be falsehood in the Bible), etc... I don't know what it is that you're specifically asking at the end there... so if you have any further questions just let me know... and I'm not trying to have you convert ,nor am I trying to bash Christianity... I admire the true, core beliefs and ideals of the faith, but simply believe, or know rather, that the scripture has been corrupted.
Nice! Bruh, I commend you and I have to admit that I've been struggling with religion period for a while now, going back and fourth on if I should be Christian or Muslim, so I went around challenging each scripture, and every Muslim I ask basically has a flawless answer. Even debates I've watched from Ahmed Deedat and Dr. Zakir Naik.. Honestly I was trying my hardest to pick holes through Islam because I'm scared of not accepting Christ, everyone (Christians) swears that this is the only means by which to attain salvation.. I was so confused that I denied Christ and accepted him again all in the same night the other day simply out of fear.. But my mind is getting clearer and I thank you for your help(though you may not of known you were helping me)... I will also consult someone at the Mosque but as of now I think that I'm leaning toward Islam..
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Ok, from my understanding Muslim people don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.. They continuously deny his crucifixion and claim that he was of the flesh, a mere mortal and nothing more than a prophet.. Yet, at the same time Muslims do admit that Christ was born of immaculate conception and came str8 from the father. It took me a while to find a contradiction in Islam but I did with out even having to pick up a Koran! It is so blatant and obvious. This is my question to all Muslims and those who have some knowledge of the Koranic and Biblical scripture.
Man was born into Sin because of the deeds of our ancestors Adam and Eve correct? For this reason we are all cursed with Sin and have to either over come it through belief in Christ(the Christian way) or through submission to Allah's will(the Islamic way) correct? So if you believe this, can you agree that Christ wasn't of Sin since he was not of Adam? And how can Christ not be the Son Of God if he had no earthly father? Who's son was he then? I don't understand the Islamic teachings, what are they trying to say? Wouldn't it be more logical to just accept that Christ was the Son Of God then to assume that he just didn't have a father? If you believe that the Holy Spirit fertilized Mary's seed, wouldn't that make God his literal father? It would of made more sense if Muslims simply denied Jesus' immaculate birth, then you might have a flawless religion on your hands. But in this aspect everything falls apart because this is the basis of Islam that sets it apart from Christianity.
You need to step outside of that box you're in. There was no immaculate conception and no virgin birth. Christianity and Islamic teachings are no different in that they are BOTH based on the perceptions of other men and not some divine inspiration.
JML, I'll respond to you in one second.. @ Merovigian, how the hell am I stuck in a box? Are you serious or was this the wittiest line that you could come up with? If anything I'm trying to expand my perception of Islam by asking questions, what type of idiot are you for that statement? So I guess the 1.6 million Christians world wide are stuck in a box also? And mind you, I'm not a Christian! You look like an asshole when you assume..
Dont mind our good friend, Meningitis... he's not telling you to step outside of a box because you're asking questions about Islam... but rather because he thinks people are dumb for following any of these religions... that's his opinion, which is fine.
Not dumb...but closed-minded. You will never find salvation in a book. What can a book tell you that your own consciousness cannot? The sooner people realize that, the better off this world will be.
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Ok, from my understanding Muslim people don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.. They continuously deny his crucifixion and claim that he was of the flesh, a mere mortal and nothing more than a prophet.. Yet, at the same time Muslims do admit that Christ was born of immaculate conception and came str8 from the father. It took me a while to find a contradiction in Islam but I did with out even having to pick up a Koran! It is so blatant and obvious. This is my question to all Muslims and those who have some knowledge of the Koranic and Biblical scripture.
Man was born into Sin because of the deeds of our ancestors Adam and Eve correct? For this reason we are all cursed with Sin and have to either over come it through belief in Christ(the Christian way) or through submission to Allah's will(the Islamic way) correct? So if you believe this, can you agree that Christ wasn't of Sin since he was not of Adam? And how can Christ not be the Son Of God if he had no earthly father? Who's son was he then? I don't understand the Islamic teachings, what are they trying to say? Wouldn't it be more logical to just accept that Christ was the Son Of God then to assume that he just didn't have a father? If you believe that the Holy Spirit fertilized Mary's seed, wouldn't that make God his literal father? It would of made more sense if Muslims simply denied Jesus' immaculate birth, then you might have a flawless religion on your hands. But in this aspect everything falls apart because this is the basis of Islam that sets it apart from Christianity.
You need to step outside of that box you're in. There was no immaculate conception and no virgin birth. Christianity and Islamic teachings are no different in that they are BOTH based on the perceptions of other men and not some divine inspiration.
JML, I'll respond to you in one second.. @ Merovigian, how the hell am I stuck in a box? Are you serious or was this the wittiest line that you could come up with? If anything I'm trying to expand my perception of Islam by asking questions, what type of idiot are you for that statement? So I guess the 1.6 million Christians world wide are stuck in a box also? And mind you, I'm not a Christian! You look like an asshole when you assume..
That goes far beyond your comprehension my friend.
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Ok, from my understanding Muslim people don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.. They continuously deny his crucifixion and claim that he was of the flesh, a mere mortal and nothing more than a prophet.. Yet, at the same time Muslims do admit that Christ was born of immaculate conception and came str8 from the father. It took me a while to find a contradiction in Islam but I did with out even having to pick up a Koran! It is so blatant and obvious. This is my question to all Muslims and those who have some knowledge of the Koranic and Biblical scripture.
Man was born into Sin because of the deeds of our ancestors Adam and Eve correct? For this reason we are all cursed with Sin and have to either over come it through belief in Christ(the Christian way) or through submission to Allah's will(the Islamic way) correct? So if you believe this, can you agree that Christ wasn't of Sin since he was not of Adam? And how can Christ not be the Son Of God if he had no earthly father? Who's son was he then? I don't understand the Islamic teachings, what are they trying to say? Wouldn't it be more logical to just accept that Christ was the Son Of God then to assume that he just didn't have a father? If you believe that the Holy Spirit fertilized Mary's seed, wouldn't that make God his literal father? It would of made more sense if Muslims simply denied Jesus' immaculate birth, then you might have a flawless religion on your hands. But in this aspect everything falls apart because this is the basis of Islam that sets it apart from Christianity.
You need to step outside of that box you're in. There was no immaculate conception and no virgin birth. Christianity and Islamic teachings are no different in that they are BOTH based on the perceptions of other men and not some divine inspiration.
JML, I'll respond to you in one second.. @ Merovigian, how the hell am I stuck in a box? Are you serious or was this the wittiest line that you could come up with? If anything I'm trying to expand my perception of Islam by asking questions, what type of idiot are you for that statement? So I guess the 1.6 million Christians world wide are stuck in a box also? And mind you, I'm not a Christian! You look like an asshole when you assume..
That goes far beyond your comprehension my friend.
Pretty ironic coming from some dweeb who can't comprehend the existence of a God. You probably live your life according to current events and science, what a shallow life you must live young one, I feel sorry for you.. I would pray for you but I don't feel like it.
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Ok, from my understanding Muslim people don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.. They continuously deny his crucifixion and claim that he was of the flesh, a mere mortal and nothing more than a prophet.. Yet, at the same time Muslims do admit that Christ was born of immaculate conception and came str8 from the father. It took me a while to find a contradiction in Islam but I did with out even having to pick up a Koran! It is so blatant and obvious. This is my question to all Muslims and those who have some knowledge of the Koranic and Biblical scripture.
Man was born into Sin because of the deeds of our ancestors Adam and Eve correct? For this reason we are all cursed with Sin and have to either over come it through belief in Christ(the Christian way) or through submission to Allah's will(the Islamic way) correct? So if you believe this, can you agree that Christ wasn't of Sin since he was not of Adam? And how can Christ not be the Son Of God if he had no earthly father? Who's son was he then? I don't understand the Islamic teachings, what are they trying to say? Wouldn't it be more logical to just accept that Christ was the Son Of God then to assume that he just didn't have a father? If you believe that the Holy Spirit fertilized Mary's seed, wouldn't that make God his literal father? It would of made more sense if Muslims simply denied Jesus' immaculate birth, then you might have a flawless religion on your hands. But in this aspect everything falls apart because this is the basis of Islam that sets it apart from Christianity.
You need to step outside of that box you're in. There was no immaculate conception and no virgin birth. Christianity and Islamic teachings are no different in that they are BOTH based on the perceptions of other men and not some divine inspiration.
JML, I'll respond to you in one second.. @ Merovigian, how the hell am I stuck in a box? Are you serious or was this the wittiest line that you could come up with? If anything I'm trying to expand my perception of Islam by asking questions, what type of idiot are you for that statement? So I guess the 1.6 million Christians world wide are stuck in a box also? And mind you, I'm not a Christian! You look like an asshole when you assume..
That goes far beyond your comprehension my friend.
Pretty ironic coming from some dweeb who can't comprehend the existence of a God. You probably live your life according to current events and science, what a shallow life you must live young one, I feel sorry for you.. I would pray for you but I don't feel like it.
I don't normally resort to insults, but you left me no choice. That's what an enslaved mind would say. Your nothing but a mindless sheep, a puppet if you will. Do you even know the origins of Christianty or Islam? Are you even aware of the biblical revisions that took place in Europe? My guess is no. It is you who can't comprehend. What you fail to realize is that God is just a title for the source of all things created. And contrary to your belief, I do acknowledge this source. After all, I am this source. That sounds very blasphemous and anti-everything to the typical Christian or Muslim mind. Thing is, I don't submit to the Christian's or Muslim's version of this source that they call God. Nor do I accept the entire bible. I'm spiritually based and don't accept anything concerning my soul/spirit without question. I may as well put my life in the hands of man by doing so.
If all it took was God to reveal itself to us, then we would ALL have the same vision of God. Therefore, the revelation of being revealed is soley based on what we percieve the revelation to be. We create the illusion that presents itself neither right nor wrong, but rather a personal experience. We can only create, percieve, and visualize what has already been programmed inside us. You are only subject to your perception. It is man who creates the conditions to support his perception (heaven, hell ect.,)
The inner divine is not in a book. It has no rules, no conditions. It just is and it works through every man. People read the bible, take it literally, and start looking for God outside themselves and that's where they fail because they start to look for a heaven (happiness) when they die rather than while they are living.
I feel for you because I know how it felt when I began a journey/path to knowledge of self....consciousness if you will. Anyone that thinks Jesus is the one and only way, Buddah is the one and only way, Allah is the one and only way....and so forth have no clue as to how the divine operates. I will admit that I don't know everything...not even close. By the same token, it was revealed to me years ago that this omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient force that brings all life can't be confined to one sect of people and their teachings. You have to overstand that at the end of the day, when you lay your head on your pillow to drift and experience the "dream" world, you calling yourself a Christian, Muslim or whatever does not matter. The very essence of who you are is what matters.
You are energy....you are love....you are life...you are a drop from the ocean....you are a part of this eternal being. You were and are all of these things before Jesus, Christianity, any other religion or savior ever came to be.
A word of advice...peep the message and not the person bringing the message. This is why I as a free-spirited person can learn from anyone. Christians are so caught up in "Jesus" and miss most of his teachings. Anyone is capable of coming into Christ consciousness. And he said so in so many words in your bible. Your bible is not perfect and holy, but yet a useful tool. You can believe what you want...just know that it becomes a problem when it is claimed to be absolute truth.
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Yea your initial assumptions are from christian teachings....There is no such thing as we're sinned forever cuz of adam&eve and how can christ be born without a father. Its ridiculous to believe such a thing, thats why christianity is not a logical religion
This is where you lose my friend, because this is not an assumption and I know for a fact that Muslims believe this and not Christians. Muslims believe that Christ was born with out a father, Christians believe God was the father.. And The Old Testament is flawless, this is where the Adam and Eve story comes from. Most Muslims have a problem with the New Testament, I've watched many debates where they've stated this. And for all I know Mohammed was a false prophet, how we know he just didn't copy shit from the Bible and made all that other shit up?
Ok obviously you didn't read my post all the way. Mohammad was illeterate and couldn't have narrated the best ever written book. HOw is that possible?
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Yea your initial assumptions are from christian teachings....There is no such thing as we're sinned forever cuz of adam&eve and how can christ be born without a father. Its ridiculous to believe such a thing, thats why christianity is not a logical religion
This is where you lose my friend, because this is not an assumption and I know for a fact that Muslims believe this and not Christians. Muslims believe that Christ was born with out a father, Christians believe God was the father.. And The Old Testament is flawless, this is where the Adam and Eve story comes from. Most Muslims have a problem with the New Testament, I've watched many debates where they've stated this. And for all I know Mohammed was a false prophet, how we know he just didn't copy shit from the Bible and made all that other shit up?
Ok obviously you didn't read my post all the way. Mohammad was illeterate and couldn't have narrated the best ever written book. HOw is that possible?
Ok fool, why are you still trying to argue? You obviously didn't read the posts leading up to yours, JM answered all of my questions, I said that I couldn't find any flaws in Islam, what more do you want me to say?
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I've been reading this forum and it sort of changed a bit from the original question to how does Christianity contradict itself? to merovingian the atheist without a clue. but i want to give a Christian answer, I'm gonna have to defend my faith because i know that the rest of you would if i said something bad about Islam.
(1 Timothy 3:14-16:) (14)Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, (15) if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. (16) Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[a] appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.
(John 8:57-58 it says:) (57)"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
(58)"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
this means that Jesus was god because only God said he was "I am" to Moses at the burning bush
(Exodus 3:13-14): (13) Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"
(14) God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
and Jesus wasn't the first time that God came to earth in the flesh because he has done it before
(Genesis 18:1-2) (1)The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. (2) Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
(genesis 18:20-22) (20) Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous (21) that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
(22) The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD.
you have to understand that Jesus was part human and part spirit. he had a human side which got depressed, sad and felt pain (thats why he cried out to God).he also had a spiritual side (which was God, thats why he performed miracles and remained sinless). Jesus needed the fear of good because he had a human side (or half human)
Jesus always spoke in the spirit
to the guy who wrote "was the gospel of john written by john" made me laugh because what he didn't realise was that there were two Johns: John the disciple the man who wrote the book and John the Baptist (who was a powerful man who had disciples himself) the one who baptised Jesus. from john 1-19 up to John 4:2 John the disciple was writing about John the baptist
Jesus was crucified on a cross. crosses are wood.wood comes form trees. they used to cut down the trees and make crosses out of them.
(Luke 23:23) (23) But with loud shouts they insistently demanded that he be crucified, and their shouts prevailed.
the word crucify means nailed to a cross (look up the definition) it doesn't mean anything else. You cant be crucified to a tree. They used the word tree because the cross was cut from a tree, it is a piece of tree
to "sonofis". You have to listen to both sides of the story not just a Muslim talking about the flaws in Christianity or a Christian talking about the flaws in Islam. you have to do much more research in order to decide. just because u might find something wrong or some one says something wrong about Christianity doesn't means that it is. keep searchin my brother
ill leave you with the words of 2 peter 2:1-3
(1)But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. (2)Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. (3)In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
I'm not trying to start an argument but i have to defend my religion and what i believe
and to merovingian I really pray that you see the light someday (and thats real talk).
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and to merovingian I really pray that you see the light someday (and thats real talk).
yeah we can only hope for merovingian that one day he becomes as enlightend as you are
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I've been reading this forum and it sort of changed a bit from the original question to how does Christianity contradict itself? to merovingian the atheist without a clue. but i want to give a Christian answer, I'm gonna have to defend my faith because i know that the rest of you would if i said something bad about Islam.
(1 Timothy 3:14-16:) (14)Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, (15) if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. (16) Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[a] appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.
(John 8:57-58 it says:) (57)"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
(58)"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
this means that Jesus was god because only God said he was "I am" to Moses at the burning bush
(Exodus 3:13-14): (13) Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"
(14) God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
and Jesus wasn't the first time that God came to earth in the flesh because he has done it before
(Genesis 18:1-2) (1)The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. (2) Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
(genesis 18:20-22) (20) Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous (21) that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
(22) The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD.
you have to understand that Jesus was part human and part spirit. he had a human side which got depressed, sad and felt pain (thats why he cried out to God).he also had a spiritual side (which was God, thats why he performed miracles and remained sinless). Jesus needed the fear of good because he had a human side (or half human)
Jesus always spoke in the spirit
to the guy who wrote "was the gospel of john written by john" made me laugh because what he didn't realise was that there were two Johns: John the disciple the man who wrote the book and John the Baptist (who was a powerful man who had disciples himself) the one who baptised Jesus. from john 1-19 up to John 4:2 John the disciple was writing about John the baptist
Jesus was crucified on a cross. crosses are wood.wood comes form trees. they used to cut down the trees and make crosses out of them.
(Luke 23:23) (23) But with loud shouts they insistently demanded that he be crucified, and their shouts prevailed.
the word crucify means nailed to a cross (look up the definition) it doesn't mean anything else. You cant be crucified to a tree. They used the word tree because the cross was cut from a tree, it is a piece of tree
to "sonofis". You have to listen to both sides of the story not just a Muslim talking about the flaws in Christianity or a Christian talking about the flaws in Islam. you have to do much more research in order to decide. just because u might find something wrong or some one says something wrong about Christianity doesn't means that it is. keep searchin my brother
ill leave you with the words of 2 peter 2:1-3
(1)But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. (2)Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. (3)In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
I'm not trying to start an argument but i have to defend my religion and what i believe
and to merovingian I really pray that you see the light someday (and thats real talk).
You are only one of many that are not ready to step out of the little box that you have put your God and Jesus inside of. Oh how upset you're gonna be when you find out that Jesus is not coming to save you. This salvation and kingdom of God that you speak of is all in your mind and that's where it will remain. Evolution of the mind, body, and soul is what's up......please, KNOW this.
You can remain in your ignorance and the truth of life will still unfold....while your fairytales go bye-bye...slowly but surely these false teachings are coming to an end....thus, the new beginning. Now, that's real.
You regurgitating bible verses tells me that you are incapable of thinking for yourself.
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Yea your initial assumptions are from christian teachings....There is no such thing as we're sinned forever cuz of adam&eve and how can christ be born without a father. Its ridiculous to believe such a thing, thats why christianity is not a logical religion
This is where you lose my friend, because this is not an assumption and I know for a fact that Muslims believe this and not Christians. Muslims believe that Christ was born with out a father, Christians believe God was the father.. And The Old Testament is flawless, this is where the Adam and Eve story comes from. Most Muslims have a problem with the New Testament, I've watched many debates where they've stated this. And for all I know Mohammed was a false prophet, how we know he just didn't copy shit from the Bible and made all that other shit up?
Ok obviously you didn't read my post all the way. Mohammad was illeterate and couldn't have narrated the best ever written book. HOw is that possible?
Ok fool, why are you still trying to argue? You obviously didn't read the posts leading up to yours, JM answered all of my questions, I said that I couldn't find any flaws in Islam, what more do you want me to say?
I dont need to read all those long ass posts cuz i know most of it and i know the answer.
What IM Arguing against is you saying mohammad is a fake and he made it all up and I proved to you how it's NOT.....
Oh nevermind ::)
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Jesus was god
he cried out to God
Thanks for that.
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^ lol
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to "sonofis". You have to listen to both sides of the story not just a Muslim talking about the flaws in Christianity or a Christian talking about the flaws in Islam. you have to do much more research in order to decide. just because u might find something wrong or some one says something wrong about Christianity doesn't means that it is. keep searchin my brother
I understand that bruh.. I was just saying, I couldn't really poke any major holes in Islam(believe me, I've been trying for weeks now), but there is a lot about Christianity that sticks out as questionable from the jump. As a matter of fact, I'm downloading a documentary about the lost gospels right now from mvgroup.org...
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Man was born into Sin because of the deeds of our ancestors Adam and Eve correct?
Not correct. Islam, means submission to the Creator. None of us asked to be sent to this world. It is the Creator who sent us here. We were sent in submission to his will, every one is born in innocence. No soul shall bear the sins of another.
And actually this brings up a point of confusion in the Bible, because in one place in the Bible it mentions that no man should carry the burdens (sins) of someone from before. Then later, ofcourse we have the origional sin theory. I'll look up the verses later.
Wouldn't it be more logical to just accept that Christ was the Son Of God then to assume that he just didn't have a father? If you believe that the Holy Spirit fertilized Mary's seed, wouldn't that make God his literal father? It would of made more sense if Muslims simply denied Jesus' immaculate birth, then you might have a flawless religion on your hands. But in this aspect everything falls apart because this is the basis of Islam that sets it apart from Christianity.
At one time there was no water on this Earth and Allah created water. At one time there were no people on this Earth and Allah created people. At one time, there was no food on this Earth and Allah created food for us. At one time there were no cars or planes, and man had concern to have a car and plane, and Allah created the means for him to produce it.
Allah is the creator. He could create Adam without a mother or father. So the possibility that Jesus was created without a father is not a suprising phenomenon.
Also, Islam is how you suggested it to be, a flawless religion. Because the Qu'ran in fact does mention that some of the stories in the Qu'ran that are from previous texts, are not to be taken literally, but rather the stories from previous times are allegorical.
Qur'an verse 3:7
"He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed."
...The foundational belief of Islam is that Allah is one, and that he has no partner. Therefore, the main point that is repeated consistently regarding the life of Jesus is that he was not God, nor was he a partner to God, but rather he was a merely a submitter to God, and a messenger. This is the essence of the story in the Qu'ran, the rest is just husk.
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Jesus was of flesh, Mohammed was of flesh. Guess what..........YHWH/Allah was of flesh also. If you look at all the physical charactoristics he is being described as in the Bible. The reason Islam claims Jesus was flesh is because when YHWH came to Mohammed he learned of these truths. Islam was supposed to succeed Christianity for people at that time. This is the reason Islam forbids the Bible to be read. YHWH wanted us to progress and let go of the primitive beliefs. Sorry to put all the mysticism to rest for peopel that are not ready for that. But god is of flesh and comes from another place in the universe.
Heres a cute little metaphorical statement for you reguarding humanities growth.
"Which indeed is the least of all seeds but whe it is grown, it is the greastest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."Matthew 13:32
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Mergovinigan you wrote "You are only one of many that are not ready to step out of the little box" who are you, Morpheus from the Matrix?
you say its all in my mind and that it is ignorant to have any belief in God. thats the problem with smart people they they become arrogant and think that everyone else that doesn't agree with them is stupid. if you ask me you are the one stuck in the box. you really think that me and the millions of other Christians in the world (a lot of them much smarter than you) are all ignorant
maybe i believe in God because i have found something that you have yet to find (and i hope you do). I used to be an agnostic always questioning things never really had a belief in God, never read the bible, until march this year when i got saved, its not in your mind its something you can feel (which is hard to explain to someone like you). you have no idea what i was going through before and how God moved me from where i was at.
and what do you mean i cant think for myself, do you know me? just because I'm reading the bible and know some scriptures doesn't mean i cant think for myself. the bible is a great book full of wise sayings and helpful information. You might as well say that everyone who reads is ignorant, i mean "cant they think for themselves?" why do they need to read books to gain knowledge? we all must be stuck in a box, hey? when i posted that information, it wasn't for you, it was to defend Christianity and to help people get a better understanding of what the scriptures meant.
i can sit here and throw scriptures at you and it probably wont change your mind, i know that. its up to you to believe or not. you're sticking with that whole religion is fake, we don need it, "the inner divine" (which sound to me like some Buddhism teaching) "you don't know what went on in Europe "(even though there is no real proof of that) mind state, fine then believe that if you want. i just wish you would be more open minded like "sonofisis" is being by doing some research and trying to understand religion, but its your life. just think of it like this why are there so many Christians in the world? and why is our world getting worse the more Godless is gets?
and to "JML" what i meant was Jesus had God manifested inside of him (which made him god in the flesh) but he also had a human side which was of this world (since his mother is Mary) so his human side had to refer to god as father and his human side had to fear God and pray to him otherwise the spiritual side and human side would be fighting themselves/contradicting themselves
and to hajj yes no man should bear the sins of his ancestors, the bible says all of mankind were cursed by the sin of Adam and eve and that i why Jesus came and died for us, to cleanse/redeem us of this curse and for any other sins we have committed.
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Mergovinigan you wrote "You are only one of many that are not ready to step out of the little box" who are you, Morpheus from the Matrix?
you say its all in my mind and that it is ignorant to have any belief in God. thats the problem with smart people
Hahaha! What would make you think that this guy is smart?
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Mergovinigan you wrote "You are only one of many that are not ready to step out of the little box" who are you, Morpheus from the Matrix?
you say its all in my mind and that it is ignorant to have any belief in God. thats the problem with smart people they they become arrogant and think that everyone else that doesn't agree with them is stupid. if you ask me you are the one stuck in the box. you really think that me and the millions of other Christians in the world (a lot of them much smarter than you) are all ignorant
maybe i believe in God because i have found something that you have yet to find (and i hope you do). I used to be an agnostic always questioning things never really had a belief in God, never read the bible, until march this year when i got saved, its not in your mind its something you can feel (which is hard to explain to someone like you). you have no idea what i was going through before and how God moved me from where i was at.
and what do you mean i cant think for myself, do you know me? just because I'm reading the bible and know some scriptures doesn't mean i cant think for myself. the bible is a great book full of wise sayings and helpful information. You might as well say that everyone who reads is ignorant, i mean "cant they think for themselves?" why do they need to read books to gain knowledge? we all must be stuck in a box, hey? when i posted that information, it wasn't for you, it was to defend Christianity and to help people get a better understanding of what the scriptures meant.
i can sit here and throw scriptures at you and it probably wont change your mind, i know that. its up to you to believe or not. you're sticking with that whole religion is fake, we don need it, "the inner divine" (which sound to me like some Buddhism teaching) "you don't know what went on in Europe "(even though there is no real proof of that) mind state, fine then believe that if you want. i just wish you would be more open minded like "sonofisis" is being by doing some research and trying to understand religion, but its your life. just think of it like this why are there so many Christians in the world? and why is our world getting worse the more Godless is gets?
and to "JML" what i meant was Jesus had God manifested inside of him (which made him god in the flesh) but he also had a human side which was of this world (since his mother is Mary) so his human side had to refer to god as father and his human side had to fear God and pray to him otherwise the spiritual side and human side would be fighting themselves/contradicting themselves
and to hajj yes no man should bear the sins of his ancestors, the bible says all of mankind were cursed by the sin of Adam and eve and that i why Jesus came and died for us, to cleanse/redeem us of this curse and for any other sins we have committed.
Ignorant simply means lacking knowledge, not stupidity.
There is so much about your religion that you don't know my friend. The basis of much of your biblical belief comes directly from the stories of ancient cultures much older than the Bible. The Bible is simply a re-telling of pre-existing myths and legends. Egyptian (African) mythology has had perhaps, the greatest influence on the Bible. There are many similarities between the Egyptian Horus and Christian Jesus, whose story came thousand of years later.
Why we (assuming that you're black), the oldest people on the planet, are studying a history cloaked in Jewish lineage? Denomination without investigation is foolish. You are afraid to venture outside of Biblical boundaries that may cause you to act upon your discoveries. You are afraid you will discover something historically plausible that may cause you to change your view. It is often easier to consider new information blasphemous or even bluntly reject it. You cannot be closed-minded and have a "The Bible said it, I believe it and that's all there is to it" approach to knowledge. Knowing can be more potent than believing.
Most will say, "you got have faith". Well, I say, If faith requires no proof, then imagination becomes a great thing. If you were told to have faith in an almighty polka dot monkey, how could anyone dispute such an idea, especially since we do not have to provide any evidence of the monkey's existence? One can have faith that the wheels on their car won't fall off when they are riding.
People give power to that which they focus their energy on. This is precisely the reason there are thousands of religious and belief systems in the world. Many of these beliefs are based on mythology, which is simply a timeless expression of the human imagination. People, places, and things are real if you believe them to be. If you think mythology does not play a significant role in nearly all religions, including Christianity, you are highly misinformed.
Another thing, to say that I'm athiest because I don't believe in your God is very shallow of you. I guess that applies to anyone who doesn't acknowledge your version of God including Muslims, Buddists, Hindu, ect. On the contrary, I believe in a higher power. I do not believe that higher power is accessed outside of me, but rather inside of me. I believe the love of ones self is what gives us a direct relation to that energy and through that energy, we can love others and have divine empathy for others and treat others with love. I worship my creator by loving and helping others as I do not believe that higher power judges us at all. I believe we judge ourselves therefore, we are subject to our actions and reactions (cause and effect). We learn what not to do by what we have done and gotten negative reactions from. Because of this belief, I take my Creator out of the box with conditions and restrictions and live a very enlightening life.
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I want talk as a muslim now who reads Kuran. first you have to know Jesus is the most credited prophet in Kuran, and we love him as the way we love Muhammed. Because both are prophets of God. Now I want to tell something exist in Kuran.
... When Jesus borned, people asked Mary : "Who is his father?" and started to blame her. At that time baby Jesus started to talk and said people : " I'm the prophet of God"...
The important point Jesus never claimed that he is son of God however he never knew and guessed people will see him as son of God soon. Every prophet got miracles and magics. This is a magic to. But some askin " who is his father so?". If they know that another miracle, Jesus made a bird by mud,breathed upon it then bird flyed,now i wonder will they ask "how could it fly?" This was a magic, a magic sent to Jesus by God, and we cant ask questions and wait answers for magics.
We believe same God brothers, but different regions.And we have a little chance to choose it. Because we born muslim or chrisitian. Regions bring cultures. You live with this cultures. Like we have to believe what we born with. We muslims believe İslam is the last magic to Human, God's latest words. This is just one reason to christians believe it too. But we muslims have to do self-criticism. People who got use islam for their bad aims or the people who never understand İslam right caused that islam seems old-fashioned region. But i tell you people if you read it urself with a right translation you can see the magic,power,justice in it. People see muslims as arabics. It is wrong. The other wrong thing is some muslims trying to be as arabics. İslam sent to all the people. And if muslim population growed in whole the world by the Turks(i mean Ottomans).
And yes i'm Turk :) a Turk believing God,Muhammed,Jesus and living modern living in world standarts with his region.
Peace brothers.
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I want talk as a muslim now who reads Kuran. first you have to know Jesus is the most credited prophet in Kuran, and we love him as the way we love Muhammed. Because both are prophets of God. Now I want to tell something exist in Kuran.
... When Jesus borned, people asked Mary : "Who is his father?" and started to blame her. At that time baby Jesus started to talk and said people : " I'm the prophet of God"...
The important point Jesus never claimed that he is son of God however he never knew and guessed people will see him as son of God soon. Every prophet got miracles and magics. This is a magic to. But some askin " who is his father so?". If they know that another miracle, Jesus made a bird by mud,breathed upon it then bird flyed,now i wonder will they ask "how could it fly?" This was a magic, a magic sent to Jesus by God, and we cant ask questions and wait answers for magics.
We believe same God brothers, but different regions.And we have a little chance to choose it. Because we born muslim or chrisitian. Regions bring cultures. You live with this cultures. Like we have to believe what we born with. We muslims believe İslam is the last magic to Human, God's latest words. This is just one reason to christians believe it too. But we muslims have to do self-criticism. People who got use islam for their bad aims or the people who never understand İslam right caused that islam seems old-fashioned region. But i tell you people if you read it urself with a right translation you can see the magic,power,justice in it. People see muslims as arabics. It is wrong. The other wrong thing is some muslims trying to be as arabics. İslam sent to all the people. And if muslim population growed in whole the world by the Turks(i mean Ottomans).
And yes i'm Turk :) a Turk believing God,Muhammed,Jesus and living modern living in world standarts with his region.
Peace brothers.
siktir git lan