West Coast Connection Forum
DUBCC - Tha Connection => Outbound Connection => Topic started by: Tanjential on April 29, 2007, 01:13:22 AM
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40 million people would not have bought a whack album....10 million may buy a whack album yeah....but the last 30 million that bought Thriller wouldn't have bought that shit unless the FIRST 10 million told them that that shit was the fucking shit. Have been bumping PYT(my choice for best track on the record) non stop lately.
-T
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Jackson really hit the jackpot with this
my favs are Beat it, Wanna be Startin Somethin' and Billie Jean of course.
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damn,i havent thought of this album/mj for a minute.....wanna be startin somthin was my jam as a youngster,last time i tried to listen to mj i just wasnt into it...think ill give it another shot
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Shit, i was just bumping this album earlier today 8) This is a classic no doubt. I luv all the songs on here but if i had to go with 1, it would be 'Billie Jean'.
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i cant go with one.
Thriller
Beat it
Billie Jean
P.Y.T.
are def. my top 4, these songs make my soul feel warmer after listening
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that fucking motown 25 performance of billie jean is positively inhuman.
-T
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i listen to this and off the wall all the time on my ipod
i voted for baby be mine,
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This is one of the greatest albums ever. 8)
Way too hard to pick just one track, they all is on some serious shit. All above average.
I'm going to have to go with 'Human Nature'. NOBODY can write a song like that. He sounds amazing singin' it of course and when he perfroms it, HOLY shit.
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This is one of the greatest albums ever. 8)
Way too hard to pick just one track, they all is on some serious shit. All above average.
I'm going to have to go with 'Human Nature'. NOBODY can write a song like that. He sounds amazing singin' it of course and when he perfroms it, HOLY shit.
i love that track
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baby be mine
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And yes, I know, Michael Jackson did not write Human Nature, still NOBODY can write a track like that. ;)
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that fucking motown 25 performance of billie jean is positively inhuman.
-T
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my fav is wanna be starting something
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Damn thats a Hard one!!! I'll Go with Baby Be Mine and Wanna be startin
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40 million people would not have bought a whack album....10 million may buy a whack album yeah....but the last 30 million that bought Thriller wouldn't have bought that shit unless the FIRST 10 million told them that that shit was the fucking shit. Have been bumping PYT(my choice for best track on the record) non stop lately.
-T
Well to be fair, it wasn't 40 million people. A lot of people bought the album at least twice, many three times. This was the Reagan years so the US and US affiliates had extreme amounts of disposable income. The audio cassette, walkman, and cassette deck in cars were getting very popular and the CD was just around the corner. So while the number 1 format was still the LP most people still wanted the album for portable use. Throw in the fact that the LP only cost like 3 or 4 dollars and you have a hit. I mean look at all the other albums from that era. Everyone was going diamond or eventually went diamond. Reagan's 80s was a big time for music sales.
The only difference between Thriller and ...Baby One More Time or Backstreet's Back is that MJ wrote some of the songs himself. It was a corperate album that took sounds that were being innovated by acts like Queen and Rick James and glossed those sounds up a bit while adding big bugdets for videos. Is it a terrible album? No, but Phantom Menace isn't a terrible movie either, yet the just shy of a billion dollars in revenue doesn't make it a great film.
I picked Beat It. I like the riff, and love the VH solo.
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40 million people would not have bought a whack album....10 million may buy a whack album yeah....but the last 30 million that bought Thriller wouldn't have bought that shit unless the FIRST 10 million told them that that shit was the fucking shit. Have been bumping PYT(my choice for best track on the record) non stop lately.
-T
Well to be fair, it wasn't 40 million people. A lot of people bought the album at least twice, many three times. This was the Reagan years so the US and US affiliates had extreme amounts of disposable income. The audio cassette, walkman, and cassette deck in cars were getting very popular and the CD was just around the corner. So while the number 1 format was still the LP most people still wanted the album for portable use. Throw in the fact that the LP only cost like 3 or 4 dollars and you have a hit. I mean look at all the other albums from that era. Everyone was going diamond or eventually went diamond. Reagan's 80s was a big time for music sales.
The only difference between Thriller and ...Baby One More Time or Backstreet's Back is that MJ wrote some of the songs himself. It was a corperate album that took sounds that were being innovated by acts like Queen and Rick James and glossed those sounds up a bit while adding big bugdets for videos. Is it a terrible album? No, but Phantom Menace isn't a terrible movie either, yet the just shy of a billion dollars in revenue doesn't make it a great film.
I picked Beat It. I like the riff, and love the VH solo.
Well, I've taken the point into consideration, howvwer the difference between this album and the Backstrret boys or whoever, is that this music is timeless.
Glossy? Hell Yeah!
Radio friendly? Ofcourse!
Listening to it 20+ years after it's released, and it's still as fresh as when I was was 4 and copped the record for the 1st time. I don't think many can say that about NSync or Backstreet.
I doubt any Backstreet album would be in the "classic" catagory.
Back to the topic... my 2 faves are PYT, Billie Jean, and on the re-issue, they put a new song on Carousel, propduced by Temperton, BEAUTIFUL song, download it you can, I'll try to uploadit. It was a 1982 - 1983 master that wasn't released until the reissue.
Thriller is my nu,mber one 1 record, follwed very closley by Off The Wall
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Classic album, I love all the tracks on here, but Ive gone 4 Billie Jean cos the track still makes me go :o when I hear it!!!
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I'm going with Billie Jean. It never gets old & the video is crazy. Also the live performance from Motown 25 was wow.
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i think the production on it is dope as hell, compared to backsteets back and one more time
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I can't see how somebody would compare him to fuckin' Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears.
Their Albums are considered: Pop
Mike's Albums could be considered: R&B, Pop, Rock & every thang in between those
Their production ain't nuthin' compared to Quincy.
Record sales ain't even close.
Michael's shit is timeless, I highly doubt ya'll can say that about 'Oops I did it again'.
Talent wise...ya'll be trippin'. ;)
They CAN'T even put a FINGER TIP to Michael's ability on stage! The greatest entertainer that ever lived? Hellz yes!!
Come on, dude's one of the biggests selling artist of all time.
Word??? >:(
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and apart from it being timeless it appealed to a mass audience...from 5-50 years old even my grandmother loved watchin MJ and she doesn't even know english....funny thing is an usher video was on tv a couple months ago and my grandma was like...hey that guys tyrin to be like Michael Jackson..and thas coming from an immigrant who doesn't watch any english programming lollll
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lol^^^^
I can't see how somebody would compare him to fuckin' Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears.
Their Albums are considered: Pop
Mike's Albums could be considered: R&B, Pop, Rock & every thang in between those
Their production ain't nuthin' compared to Quincy.
Record sales ain't even close.
Michael's shit is timeless, I highly doubt ya'll can say that about 'Oops I did it again'.
Talent wise...ya'll be trippin'. ;)
They CAN'T even put a FINGER TIP to Michael's ability on stage! The greatest entertainer that ever lived? Hellz yes!!
Come on, dude's one of the biggests selling artist of all time.
Word??? >:(
exactly +1
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This is an amazing album. The arrangements on Wanna Be Startin Somethin are incredible.
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40 million people would not have bought a whack album....10 million may buy a whack album yeah....but the last 30 million that bought Thriller wouldn't have bought that shit unless the FIRST 10 million told them that that shit was the fucking shit. Have been bumping PYT(my choice for best track on the record) non stop lately.
-T
Well to be fair, it wasn't 40 million people. A lot of people bought the album at least twice, many three times. This was the Reagan years so the US and US affiliates had extreme amounts of disposable income. The audio cassette, walkman, and cassette deck in cars were getting very popular and the CD was just around the corner. So while the number 1 format was still the LP most people still wanted the album for portable use. Throw in the fact that the LP only cost like 3 or 4 dollars and you have a hit. I mean look at all the other albums from that era. Everyone was going diamond or eventually went diamond. Reagan's 80s was a big time for music sales.
The only difference between Thriller and ...Baby One More Time or Backstreet's Back is that MJ wrote some of the songs himself. It was a corperate album that took sounds that were being innovated by acts like Queen and Rick James and glossed those sounds up a bit while adding big bugdets for videos. Is it a terrible album? No, but Phantom Menace isn't a terrible movie either, yet the just shy of a billion dollars in revenue doesn't make it a great film.
I picked Beat It. I like the riff, and love the VH solo.
Well, I've taken the point into consideration, howvwer the difference between this album and the Backstrret boys or whoever, is that this music is timeless.
Glossy? Hell Yeah!
Radio friendly? Ofcourse!
Listening to it 20+ years after it's released, and it's still as fresh as when I was was 4 and copped the record for the 1st time. I don't think many can say that about NSync or Backstreet.
I doubt any Backstreet album would be in the "classic" catagory.
Back to the topic... my 2 faves are PYT, Billie Jean, and on the re-issue, they put a new song on Carousel, propduced by Temperton, BEAUTIFUL song, download it you can, I'll try to uploadit. It was a 1982 - 1983 master that wasn't released until the reissue.
Thriller is my nu,mber one 1 record, follwed very closley by Off The Wall
To you it's still as fresh as when you first heard it. To me it's still as goofy as when I first heard it. Do I think Britney or N 'Synch or whoever will be as remembered as MJ? No, those acts will be as remembered as the Monkees, who were also huge once upon a time and had great tunes written for them. They'll be as remembered as Men at Work who were number for like 15 weeks on the album charts before Thriller or the Footloose soundtrack which dominated the weeks after Thriller.
My point isn't that they are just as remembered or considered as legendary. My point is that the quality of work isn't that far off. In my eyes Who Can It Be Now is no worse than Thriller the song and Footloose the song is no worse than Beat It. Add to that list "I Want it That Way", "As Long As You Love Me", and "All I Have to Give" by the Backstreet Boys. I don't consider any of the above songs high art as far as music goes. I don't put them anywhere near songs like Communication Breakdown, Like a Rolling Stone, Eleanor Rigby, Thunder Road, or Purple Haze.
I don't like the songs that much. I don't like the over the top production, I don't like the gloss. I don't like the lyrics, and I only like a couple of the melodees but they wear thin after a few listens. That's just my taste.
I'll always see it as Saturday Night Fever recorded after Queen and Van Halen's influences.
Now if Thriller invented the sound I'd give it some credit but it didn't.
It's remembered like Elvis is remembered. There were plenty of singers just as good as Presley in the mid to late 50s but we rarely ever hear about those acts. Jerry Lee Lewis is on limited rotation. Chuck Berry gets a mention here and there. Jackie Wilson and Eddie Cochran are forgotten completely. Little Richard was as good or better than Elvis on every level, and he had the songs and influence on future music, Buddy Holly gets no where near the regard he deserves. You'll hear Heartbreak Hotel, and Hound Dog a thousand more times than you'll ever hear High School Confidential, Rollover Beethoven, Lonely Teardrops, Summertime Blues, Bama Lama Loo or Oh Boy!. MJ like Elvis has a lobby of business men who choose to promote certain acts and forget about the others, and they had those same lobbyists while they were active. RCA and Sony respectively chose to push Elvis and MJ more than all the other acts.
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^ i always thought jackie wilson, whos great btw, sounds verry similar to elvis.
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^ i always thought jackie wilson, whos great btw, sounds verry similar to elvis.
I always thought they looked alike. Elvis had that country drawl about him unique toi white singers (except Charlie Pride). They both had that voice that sounds like it's coming from the neck and they both could swith to the throat and that's when they began to differ. It's almost impossible that Elvis would have heard Jackie before he started recording, and just as unlikely that Jackie heard Elvis he started in the clubs. Elvis did borrrow some moves from Wilson later on in his career though.
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LOL, Off The Wall was much more Saturday Night Fever than Thriller.
And you're trivializing the 40 million in sales. Sure, people bought it 2 or 3 times. If the album was just average they would have bought it once (or not at all) and been satisfied there. People buying it multiple times is a testament to how great of an album it was. Now please don't get me wrong, I'm not a record sales type of guy, but saying he sold 40 million because of Reaganomics is beyond a stretch.
And BTW, Guiness Book of World Records shows that Thriller has sold over 104 million albums worldwide.
Michael Jackson was a true child prodigy, and emerged as one of the most gifted and talented singer/dancer/entertainers ever. Quincy Jones is regarded by some as the greatest record producer ever. Rod Temperton is also regarded as one of the greatest songwriters ever.
I do agree with part of what you're saying (I think). There are times that it's just a little over the top production wise, and sure some of the lyrics can be a bit cheesy (particularly "The Girl is Mine"). But compared to the immensity of this album those are minor flaws.
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Shallow, I'm twice the fan of Zeppelin, Hendrix and Dylan that I am of Michael but to me, P.Y.T and Billie Jean is on the level of Purple Haze, Communication Breakdown, and Like A Rolling Stone easily.
-T
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Why the fuck do you have 11 tracks to choose from in the poll, Thriller only had 9 tracks.
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I never even heard "Lady in my life" like that til two months ago, and that's easily one of my favorite songs ever......
But damn, that Billie Jean bassline has to be the sickest in history.
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Why the fuck do you have 11 tracks to choose from in the poll, Thriller only had 9 tracks.
the reissue has those two tracks in their entirety after the first 9 tracks. bad, thriller, and off the wall all have extra songs on the reissues. it's awesome. the "Bad" extra tracks are better than most of the regular tracks on "Bad" imo.
-T
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Shallow, I'm twice the fan of Zeppelin, Hendrix and Dylan that I am of Michael but to me, P.Y.T and Billie Jean is on the level of Purple Haze, Communication Breakdown, and Like A Rolling Stone easily.
-T
i agree with the first part, but billy jean is on the level of like a rolling stone, or purple haze? or communication breakdown? i think plant sings the pants off michael.
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Lady In My Life was smapled By Cool J for "Her Lover" of some shit.
lol and am I the only one who voted Carousel? Me and my wife LOVE that song, it should have been on the 1st pressing of the LP
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i always enjoyed off the wall more than thriller
P.Y.T and Billie Jean is on the level of Purple Haze,
the cam'ron one ;)
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LOL, Off The Wall was much more Saturday Night Fever than Thriller.
And you're trivializing the 40 million in sales. Sure, people bought it 2 or 3 times. If the album was just average they would have bought it once (or not at all) and been satisfied there. People buying it multiple times is a testament to how great of an album it was. Now please don't get me wrong, I'm not a record sales type of guy, but saying he sold 40 million because of Reaganomics is beyond a stretch.
And BTW, Guiness Book of World Records shows that Thriller has sold over 104 million albums worldwide.
Michael Jackson was a true child prodigy, and emerged as one of the most gifted and talented singer/dancer/entertainers ever. Quincy Jones is regarded by some as the greatest record producer ever. Rod Temperton is also regarded as one of the greatest songwriters ever.
I do agree with part of what you're saying (I think). There are times that it's just a little over the top production wise, and sure some of the lyrics can be a bit cheesy (particularly "The Girl is Mine"). But compared to the immensity of this album those are minor flaws.
Yeah Off The Wall was but if Quincy had Queen and Van Halen to borrow from and he produced SNF then it would have sounded like Thriller. That's what I meant.
Worldwide sales are usually unreliable because they are often juiced or just sold and bought back by the company just to sell it agaim and create another sale. At other times it's just lies. The RIAA isn't perfect but it's way better at measuring record sales than the other types around the world.
Regardless of that here are the facts; the Yuppies bought up shit like no other generation. Look at the diamond plus albums of the 80s. 2 Def Leppard albums, 2 AC DC albums, Prince, 2 Springsteen albums (one was a 5 lp box set which only sold about 5 million but sold at a very high price, Pink Floyd. Boston sold it's most records in the 80s. Billy Joel had a few. GnR. Bon Jovi. Kenny Rogers. Eagles. The list keeps going. There were more record sales in that time period than any other time in history. It wasn't just MJ benefitting. The Yuppies had cash and they bought multiple copies of a lot of the se albums, like the Eagles greatest Hits, which is still ahead of Thriller in the US.
As for the hundred million by Guiness; In 2006 they stated it sold 51 million. I doubt it sold double what it sold since '82 in the last year and a half. And I still claim that Back in Black will eventually top it.
And Tanj; You have every right to think of the those songs as on the same level. I'll just disagree till I die. Some people think Titanic is as good as Godfather. That's their right. I find it it silly to compare the two. One is a highly produced gimmick infested addition to pop culture while other is a gritty piece of masterful art that changed the artform by challenging all the other artists to try and top it. You can apply that statement to the songs and the films in question.
Comparing this;
Where did you come from lady
And ooh won't you take me there
Right away won't you baby
Tenderoni you've got to be
Spark my nature
Sugar fly with me
with all it's glossiness
to this:
You've gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it
You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?
with it's gritty explosion
Just doesn't make any sense to me, but to each his own.
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Wanna be Startin Somethin' ! when i hear that song in the clubs ( yeah it still get spins in the club) i go nuts!
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"Billie Jean" was my favorite as a kid. Now I listen to "Baby Be Mine" the most. Damn, if only I could've me MJ when I was a kid :-\
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Damn, if only I could've me MJ when I was a kid :-\
???
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"Billie Jean" was my favorite as a kid. Now I listen to "Baby Be Mine" the most. Damn, if only I could've me MJ when I was a kid :-\
You could have ended up on the winning end of a hefty settlement.
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This shallow character is an idiot. Elvis Presley is far and above anything that ever walked the face of the earth, Jackie Wilson doesn't deserve to sing back up on an Elvis record. Of course Shallow can't see because he picked the right username for a music message board.
Simply put: You could believe some idiot like this motherfucker who thinks it's o.k. to compare records by fucking a.c.d.c. to Elvis Presley, or you could just believe the millions and millions and millions and millions of people who are of the opinion that Michael Jackson AND Elvis Presley are the coolest most talented motherfuckers to ever walk the earth. What is there to explain? Here, wait a minute, I got a picture that will sum it all up.
(http://www.lp-cd.de/4/C3957_01.jpg)
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Shallow just doesn't like things that are too popular. If Thriller was a flop, he'd call it the most underrated classic, and say Michael Jackson was the greatest artist since the Beatles, and Prince is a freak.
And of course Quincy borrowed to produce, hasn't that been the theme of music since radio, borrow from the past, and make it your own. Thriller sounds nothing like a Van Halen or Queen album, you can tell the simularities, but Quincy just made that album amazing. But I digress. This is a cat that would put Canibus as a better rapper than Biggie just to try and prove a point.
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Carousel is mad short, like 1:40, but it's dope
PYT & Baby Be Mine are slept on cuts...shoot, every song on that album is single material. It woulda been dope if it was Prince was on The Girl Is Mine rather than McCartney. Seriously, was Paul any type of comp for Mike when it came to hoes in '82-83'?
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Shallow just doesn't like things that are too popular. If Thriller was a flop, he'd call it the most underrated classic, and say Michael Jackson was the greatest artist since the Beatles, and Prince is a freak.
And of course Quincy borrowed to produce, hasn't that been the theme of music since radio, borrow from the past, and make it your own. Thriller sounds nothing like a Van Halen or Queen album, you can tell the simularities, but Quincy just made that album amazing. But I digress. This is a cat that would put Canibus as a better rapper than Biggie just to try and prove a point.
Once again you are assuming I just go against the grain for the sake of it. You simply don't know my musical tastes well enough. If everyone bashed on Thriller I wouldn't join in because there'd be no point and I may point out some of it's good qualities but I wouldn't like it any better because I don't like it to begin with. I'm not a fan of that album in that regard. I don't take it serious. As a fun pop album it's great, but so is Backsteet's Back in my opnion.
For the record Thriller sounds a lot like Queen's Another One Bites the Dust in parts and I was referring to Beat It with the Van Halen comment. The template for the slightly rocked out pop song with the intense tapping solo in the bridge was created with Beat It and it would not have existed with out Eddy.
And Trauma can say all he wants. He only likes shit that's spoon fed to him. We're talking about a guy that still thinks Iraq has WMDs. For the record I love Elvis and always have, and I didn't compare him to AC DC (but back in black does have like 46 million sold worlwide. 4 million more and 50 Million won't be wrong again). I just realistically believe that if Elvis was black and Chuck Berry was white we'd all be listening to Maybelline instead of That's Alright or if Elvis married his cousin while Jerry Lee did not it'd be Killermania running wild. And his Jackie Wilson comment further proves his spoon fed stupidity. Elvis himself was a huge fan and to say what he said would imply that everyone who sang back up on Presley records is better than Wilson. Trauma is the epitome of what Richard Nixon thought of the American people; dimwit drones who need to shut up and learn something.
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shallow, you're cool but trauma is an OG who has been speaking from a diverse standpoint since the late 90s.
I feel you are misjudging Thriller but that's cool. Zeppelin had the worst lyrics of all the great classic rock bands, even the lyrics of their deepest songs sound contrived in an attempt to sound as deep as Floyd or even the Beatles. They were dope as shit, but to say Zeppelin were great lyricists is a stretch. They're a sonic band, bands like Floyd, beatles, doors, and especially Dylan, could be poetry.
furthermore, being a sonic artist is a perfectly valid thing to be. look at jazz, lot of it has no words, still has a musical depth. songs like Billie jean and PYT, as well as the songs off the wall and i can't help it from off the wall are well crafted songs, very very effective melodically and musically. homey, I SAW Bob Dylan, I love that man and his art, but I won't front on michael J just cause he's glossily produced. so is 'modern times' but that shit still bangs. sometimes it's good to have shit well produced. preferring poor production reminds me of cats who buy torn up jeans, but hey that's just me.
i agree all the other bands you mentioned are dope as shit, but ACDC? to me, there's nothing they offer me that zeppelin can't give me. they can rock like zeppelin, but they couldn't make 'going to california' or 'that's the way'.
-T
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shallow, you're cool but trauma is an OG who has been speaking from a diverse standpoint since the late 90s.
I feel you are misjudging Thriller but that's cool. Zeppelin had the worst lyrics of all the great classic rock bands, even the lyrics of their deepest songs sound contrived in an attempt to sound as deep as Floyd or even the Beatles. They were dope as shit, but to say Zeppelin were great lyricists is a stretch. They're a sonic band, bands like Floyd, beatles, doors, and especially Dylan, could be poetry.
furthermore, being a sonic artist is a perfectly valid thing to be. look at jazz, lot of it has no words, still has a musical depth. songs like Billie jean and PYT, as well as the songs off the wall and i can't help it from off the wall are well crafted songs, very very effective melodically and musically. homey, I SAW Bob Dylan, I love that man and his art, but I won't front on michael J just cause he's glossily produced. so is 'modern times' but that shit still bangs. sometimes it's good to have shit well produced. preferring poor production reminds me of cats who buy torn up jeans, but hey that's just me.
i agree all the other bands you mentioned are dope as shit, but ACDC? to me, there's nothing they offer me that zeppelin can't give me. they can rock like zeppelin, but they couldn't make 'going to california' or 'that's the way'.
-T
(Sorry in advance for the long read you're going to go through)
I don't have a beef with you or your musical tastes. If you want to like Thriller that's great. You are however missing all my points;
1. I never gave any credit to the lyrics of Led Zeppelin. Not once did I even mention that aspects. I mentioned Communication Breakdown, but I wasn't referring to the words. It was the whole package that I was highlighting. The singing, the playing, the production, the music and most importantly the sound. Nothing on Thriller or anything by MJ comes close to that track for me. If I wanted to showcase lyrics I'd use something from Springsteen's Ghost of Tom Joad album. If Bruce is William Faulkner or John Steinbeck then MJ is Dan Brown.
2. Yeah MJ has well crafted tunes and so do the Backstreet Boys, and that's not an insult to MJ. MJ (and Temperton) knew how to craft with in the mold. Simple sometimes cheesy lyrics to a catchy melody and makes people want to sing a long. You could play those songs for just about anyone anywhere in the world and they'll have fun listening. Just like you could play Rocky 4 for just about anyone in the world and they'll have fun watching it. Then you take a film like The Shawshank Redemption; kids will think it's boring, jocks might think its stupid, girls may want more romance, frat brother want comedy. Rocky 4 made about 300 million while Shawshank made about 30. One has a lot more in it than the other. I used to have an English teacher who would read over any book you chose to do an essay on. He said a good essay needs to be on a book that is like a think stew, and any time we showed him a book that didn't have much to it he'd say "the broth is thin, find another book". As it pertains to an MJ song; the broth is thin.
3. Who ever said AC DC was all that good? I just said they had an album that sold well and I predicted it would out sell Thriller. I think so because while Thriller sounds very 80s, Back in Black doesn't sounded very dated and can appeal to harder sound fans as well as pop fans. I'm no huge AC DC fan. I have fun listening to their cuts, just like I do MJ's cuts.
4. Where did I mention that "good" production is bad? I didn't say Thriller's production was too good, I said it was too much. It was overproduced. It was too glossy. I'm going to use another film analogy because in my opinion all truly great songs are in fact short films that take place in your mind when you listen to them. Let's take a film like Spider-Man; not a bad film (I wasn't a huge fan but that was because I'm a comic book kid who think Hollywood ruins most of their adaptations) but not something that will have a profound affect on the art of filmmaking either. It looks great, because it has to. I don't mean the special affects, but the quality of the images on the screen. They are very hi-res easy on the eye shots that are meant to grab the attention of all those who look in the direction of the film. Now take a film like Memento or Unforgiven. They have a very grainy look to them; a rugged beauty if you will. Darker shots with less light and not much over dramatic shots that aren't so in your face. If you gave either of those films the high cost images that went into Spiderman it would ruin them because it wouldn't fit. It wouldn't make sense. It would take away from the story and it's meaning by adding too much to the film. If you took a song like Lennon's Working Class Hero and gave it to David Foster and he added synth drums, a tapping guitar solo for the bridge, a gospel choir on background vocals chorus, and a full out orchestra for the last verse and chorus; the song would no longer make sense. It would cease to be what Lennon wrote it as and become something else, something less in my opinion. It's not that I prefer bad production it's just that when you have too much its makes it worse. Imagine the Godfather directed by Tim Burton done in the style of Edward Scissorhands with all those bright colours and shots of the beautiful suburban scenery. It just wouldn't make sense. It works with Edward Scissorhands because it's that kind of film. Kind of like how Oops I did it Again is that kind of song. You could give that song to a Neil Young and he could try his hardest to make it seem brooding and rugged but no matter how hard he tries you can't sing those words and play that melody and be taken seriously. It would be seen as comedy, great comedy, but that's all it can be.
And me and Trauma go way back. I know what he's about and I know he knows his shit. I also know he can be a clown who has fun antagonizing people and that's what he's doing here. He's just trying to get under my skin. He may take his music very seriously but he doesn't take his character on this forum very seriously and that's what he's called it, a character. He has fun with it, and that's fine. What I put on this forum is all me and I mean what I say. I joke around sometimes but I don't use the character to ever say thing I don't really think in real. Shallow is just the screen name. There is no difference in thoughts or opinions of Shallow and Peter Kosmas. I'm simply stating what I think of Thriller and MJ's music in general. To be honest even if I thought the production was great I'd still not think too highly of the songs. That's just what I think. I have no desire to make you change your tastes. I'm just expressing mine.
(One day I'll learn to apply my less is more feelings on production to my posts)
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shallow, you're cool but trauma is an OG who has been speaking from a diverse standpoint since the late 90s.
I feel you are misjudging Thriller but that's cool. Zeppelin had the worst lyrics of all the great classic rock bands, even the lyrics of their deepest songs sound contrived in an attempt to sound as deep as Floyd or even the Beatles. They were dope as shit, but to say Zeppelin were great lyricists is a stretch. They're a sonic band, bands like Floyd, beatles, doors, and especially Dylan, could be poetry.
furthermore, being a sonic artist is a perfectly valid thing to be. look at jazz, lot of it has no words, still has a musical depth. songs like Billie jean and PYT, as well as the songs off the wall and i can't help it from off the wall are well crafted songs, very very effective melodically and musically. homey, I SAW Bob Dylan, I love that man and his art, but I won't front on michael J just cause he's glossily produced. so is 'modern times' but that shit still bangs. sometimes it's good to have shit well produced. preferring poor production reminds me of cats who buy torn up jeans, but hey that's just me.
i agree all the other bands you mentioned are dope as shit, but ACDC? to me, there's nothing they offer me that zeppelin can't give me. they can rock like zeppelin, but they couldn't make 'going to california' or 'that's the way'.
-T
(Sorry in advance for the long read you're going to go through)
I don't have a beef with you or your musical tastes. If you want to like Thriller that's great. You are however missing all my points;
1. I never gave any credit to the lyrics of Led Zeppelin. Not once did I even mention that aspects. I mentioned Communication Breakdown, but I wasn't referring to the words. It was the whole package that I was highlighting. The singing, the playing, the production, the music and most importantly the sound. Nothing on Thriller or anything by MJ comes close to that track for me. If I wanted to showcase lyrics I'd use something from Springsteen's Ghost of Tom Joad album. If Bruce is William Faulkner or John Steinbeck then MJ is Dan Brown.
2. Yeah MJ has well crafted tunes and so do the Backstreet Boys, and that's not an insult to MJ. MJ (and Temperton) knew how to craft with in the mold. Simple sometimes cheesy lyrics to a catchy melody and makes people want to sing a long. You could play those songs for just about anyone anywhere in the world and they'll have fun listening. Just like you could play Rocky 4 for just about anyone in the world and they'll have fun watching it. Then you take a film like The Shawshank Redemption; kids will think it's boring, jocks might think its stupid, girls may want more romance, frat brother want comedy. Rocky 4 made about 300 million while Shawshank made about 30. One has a lot more in it than the other. I used to have an English teacher who would read over any book you chose to do an essay on. He said a good essay needs to be on a book that is like a think stew, and any time we showed him a book that didn't have much to it he'd say "the broth is thin, find another book". As it pertains to an MJ song; the broth is thin.
3. Who ever said AC DC was all that good? I just said they had an album that sold well and I predicted it would out sell Thriller. I think so because while Thriller sounds very 80s, Back in Black doesn't sounded very dated and can appeal to harder sound fans as well as pop fans. I'm no huge AC DC fan. I have fun listening to their cuts, just like I do MJ's cuts.
4. Where did I mention that "good" production is bad? I didn't say Thriller's production was too good, I said it was too much. It was overproduced. It was too glossy. I'm going to use another film analogy because in my opinion all truly great songs are in fact short films that take place in your mind when you listen to them. Let's take a film like Spider-Man; not a bad film (I wasn't a huge fan but that was because I'm a comic book kid who think Hollywood ruins most of their adaptations) but not something that will have a profound affect on the art of filmmaking either. It looks great, because it has to. I don't mean the special affects, but the quality of the images on the screen. They are very hi-res easy on the eye shots that are meant to grab the attention of all those who look in the direction of the film. Now take a film like Memento or Unforgiven. They have a very grainy look to them; a rugged beauty if you will. Darker shots with less light and not much over dramatic shots that aren't so in your face. If you gave either of those films the high cost images that went into Spiderman it would ruin them because it wouldn't fit. It wouldn't make sense. It would take away from the story and it's meaning by adding too much to the film. If you took a song like Lennon's Working Class Hero and gave it to David Foster and he added synth drums, a tapping guitar solo for the bridge, a gospel choir on background vocals chorus, and a full out orchestra for the last verse and chorus; the song would no longer make sense. It would cease to be what Lennon wrote it as and become something else, something less in my opinion. It's not that I prefer bad production it's just that when you have too much its makes it worse. Imagine the Godfather directed by Tim Burton done in the style of Edward Scissorhands with all those bright colours and shots of the beautiful suburban scenery. It just wouldn't make sense. It works with Edward Scissorhands because it's that kind of film. Kind of like how Oops I did it Again is that kind of song. You could give that song to a Neil Young and he could try his hardest to make it seem brooding and rugged but no matter how hard he tries you can't sing those words and play that melody and be taken seriously. It would be seen as comedy, great comedy, but that's all it can be.
And me and Trauma go way back. I know what he's about and I know he knows his shit. I also know he can be a clown who has fun antagonizing people and that's what he's doing here. He's just trying to get under my skin. He may take his music very seriously but he doesn't take his character on this forum very seriously and that's what he's called it, a character. He has fun with it, and that's fine. What I put on this forum is all me and I mean what I say. I joke around sometimes but I don't use the character to ever say thing I don't really think in real. Shallow is just the screen name. There is no difference in thoughts or opinions of Shallow and Peter Kosmas. I'm simply stating what I think of Thriller and MJ's music in general. To be honest even if I thought the production was great I'd still not think too highly of the songs. That's just what I think. I have no desire to make you change your tastes. I'm just expressing mine.
(One day I'll learn to apply my less is more feelings on production to my posts)
I see what you're saying, but I just really disagree with sayign MJ is like backstreet boys and that the broth of the songs is thin. alot of the music, especially on off the wall is just as textured and funky as Boz Scaggs, Chicago, Tower of Power, P funk, Quik, etc. other soulful funky people. I think because he is commercially succesful it's tempting to just pigeonhole him into pop, but the reality of the era that I'm talking about is that Michael Jackson's first two quincy jones albums are largely funk based and the same things I look for in g funk, i look for in his music which is popular in its crossover appeal and effectiveness but to say that makes the broth of the songs thin is rather biased. songs like PYT and OTW may not be deep in some somber way, but I'm just as impressed by songs that can melodically capture happiness and exuberance in a lighthearted way like much of MJ's work. the musicianship of most of his work is solid too, I feel saying it's just cheesy lyrics over a catchy tune is a supreme understatement. On a musical level what's so different about Off the wall from say, a 70's stevie wonder album you know? Given the actual merit of the work, I feel you are being dismissive of the work because of its extreme popularity while I do see(and never disagreed with) many of your points.
furthermore, I'd say more like if Bruce Springsteen is John Steinbeck, Michael Jackson is Oscar Wilde. MJ is not as candy/fad like as Dan Brown and that you said further leads me to believe you're understating dude by alot.
-T
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shallow, you're cool but trauma is an OG who has been speaking from a diverse standpoint since the late 90s.
I feel you are misjudging Thriller but that's cool. Zeppelin had the worst lyrics of all the great classic rock bands, even the lyrics of their deepest songs sound contrived in an attempt to sound as deep as Floyd or even the Beatles. They were dope as shit, but to say Zeppelin were great lyricists is a stretch. They're a sonic band, bands like Floyd, beatles, doors, and especially Dylan, could be poetry.
furthermore, being a sonic artist is a perfectly valid thing to be. look at jazz, lot of it has no words, still has a musical depth. songs like Billie jean and PYT, as well as the songs off the wall and i can't help it from off the wall are well crafted songs, very very effective melodically and musically. homey, I SAW Bob Dylan, I love that man and his art, but I won't front on michael J just cause he's glossily produced. so is 'modern times' but that shit still bangs. sometimes it's good to have shit well produced. preferring poor production reminds me of cats who buy torn up jeans, but hey that's just me.
i agree all the other bands you mentioned are dope as shit, but ACDC? to me, there's nothing they offer me that zeppelin can't give me. they can rock like zeppelin, but they couldn't make 'going to california' or 'that's the way'.
-T
(Sorry in advance for the long read you're going to go through)
I don't have a beef with you or your musical tastes. If you want to like Thriller that's great. You are however missing all my points;
1. I never gave any credit to the lyrics of Led Zeppelin. Not once did I even mention that aspects. I mentioned Communication Breakdown, but I wasn't referring to the words. It was the whole package that I was highlighting. The singing, the playing, the production, the music and most importantly the sound. Nothing on Thriller or anything by MJ comes close to that track for me. If I wanted to showcase lyrics I'd use something from Springsteen's Ghost of Tom Joad album. If Bruce is William Faulkner or John Steinbeck then MJ is Dan Brown.
2. Yeah MJ has well crafted tunes and so do the Backstreet Boys, and that's not an insult to MJ. MJ (and Temperton) knew how to craft with in the mold. Simple sometimes cheesy lyrics to a catchy melody and makes people want to sing a long. You could play those songs for just about anyone anywhere in the world and they'll have fun listening. Just like you could play Rocky 4 for just about anyone in the world and they'll have fun watching it. Then you take a film like The Shawshank Redemption; kids will think it's boring, jocks might think its stupid, girls may want more romance, frat brother want comedy. Rocky 4 made about 300 million while Shawshank made about 30. One has a lot more in it than the other. I used to have an English teacher who would read over any book you chose to do an essay on. He said a good essay needs to be on a book that is like a think stew, and any time we showed him a book that didn't have much to it he'd say "the broth is thin, find another book". As it pertains to an MJ song; the broth is thin.
3. Who ever said AC DC was all that good? I just said they had an album that sold well and I predicted it would out sell Thriller. I think so because while Thriller sounds very 80s, Back in Black doesn't sounded very dated and can appeal to harder sound fans as well as pop fans. I'm no huge AC DC fan. I have fun listening to their cuts, just like I do MJ's cuts.
4. Where did I mention that "good" production is bad? I didn't say Thriller's production was too good, I said it was too much. It was overproduced. It was too glossy. I'm going to use another film analogy because in my opinion all truly great songs are in fact short films that take place in your mind when you listen to them. Let's take a film like Spider-Man; not a bad film (I wasn't a huge fan but that was because I'm a comic book kid who think Hollywood ruins most of their adaptations) but not something that will have a profound affect on the art of filmmaking either. It looks great, because it has to. I don't mean the special affects, but the quality of the images on the screen. They are very hi-res easy on the eye shots that are meant to grab the attention of all those who look in the direction of the film. Now take a film like Memento or Unforgiven. They have a very grainy look to them; a rugged beauty if you will. Darker shots with less light and not much over dramatic shots that aren't so in your face. If you gave either of those films the high cost images that went into Spiderman it would ruin them because it wouldn't fit. It wouldn't make sense. It would take away from the story and it's meaning by adding too much to the film. If you took a song like Lennon's Working Class Hero and gave it to David Foster and he added synth drums, a tapping guitar solo for the bridge, a gospel choir on background vocals chorus, and a full out orchestra for the last verse and chorus; the song would no longer make sense. It would cease to be what Lennon wrote it as and become something else, something less in my opinion. It's not that I prefer bad production it's just that when you have too much its makes it worse. Imagine the Godfather directed by Tim Burton done in the style of Edward Scissorhands with all those bright colours and shots of the beautiful suburban scenery. It just wouldn't make sense. It works with Edward Scissorhands because it's that kind of film. Kind of like how Oops I did it Again is that kind of song. You could give that song to a Neil Young and he could try his hardest to make it seem brooding and rugged but no matter how hard he tries you can't sing those words and play that melody and be taken seriously. It would be seen as comedy, great comedy, but that's all it can be.
And me and Trauma go way back. I know what he's about and I know he knows his shit. I also know he can be a clown who has fun antagonizing people and that's what he's doing here. He's just trying to get under my skin. He may take his music very seriously but he doesn't take his character on this forum very seriously and that's what he's called it, a character. He has fun with it, and that's fine. What I put on this forum is all me and I mean what I say. I joke around sometimes but I don't use the character to ever say thing I don't really think in real. Shallow is just the screen name. There is no difference in thoughts or opinions of Shallow and Peter Kosmas. I'm simply stating what I think of Thriller and MJ's music in general. To be honest even if I thought the production was great I'd still not think too highly of the songs. That's just what I think. I have no desire to make you change your tastes. I'm just expressing mine.
(One day I'll learn to apply my less is more feelings on production to my posts)
I see what you're saying, but I just really disagree with sayign MJ is like backstreet boys and that the broth of the songs is thin. alot of the music, especially on off the wall is just as textured and funky as Boz Scaggs, Chicago, Tower of Power, P funk, Quik, etc. other soulful funky people. I think because he is commercially succesful it's tempting to just pigeonhole him into pop, but the reality of the era that I'm talking about is that Michael Jackson's first two quincy jones albums are largely funk based and the same things I look for in g funk, i look for in his music which is popular in its crossover appeal and effectiveness but to say that makes the broth of the songs thin is rather biased. songs like PYT and OTW may not be deep in some somber way, but I'm just as impressed by songs that can melodically capture happiness and exuberance in a lighthearted way like much of MJ's work. the musicianship of most of his work is solid too, I feel saying it's just cheesy lyrics over a catchy tune is a supreme understatement. On a musical level what's so different about Off the wall from say, a 70's stevie wonder album you know? Given the actual merit of the work, I feel you are being dismissive of the work because of its extreme popularity while I do see(and never disagreed with) many of your points.
furthermore, I'd say more like if Bruce Springsteen is John Steinbeck, Michael Jackson is Oscar Wilde. MJ is not as candy/fad like as Dan Brown and that you said further leads me to believe you're understating dude by alot.
-T
Boz Scaggs and Chicago fine, but how fo you factor Parliament into that equation? Clinton lead such a raw all over the place musical attack. Chicago and MJ are more known for their straight forward tight tracks. I like Chicago, like I like MJ, but I'd never confuse either for Parliament or Tower. (Does Quik create anything funky or does he just sample funk?). There's no jamming on any MJ record. It's about as funk KC and the Sunshine Band or Justin Timberlake. And saying MJ sounds like Stevie musically is like saying Pat Boone sounds like Little Richard vocally. Boone was a safe happy go lucky sound meant to appease. Richard was a wild out of this world, raw sound meant to offend. Stevie can't touch Richard in that department but in his early to mid 70s he was very raw with his compostions. Pastime Paradise sounds nothing like anything MJ could ever do. Part Time Lover maybe, but not stuff on Innervisions and albums like it. It depends on which Stevie we'te talking about.
I don't call it thin because it was popular. I call it thin because it was thin. Sgt Peppers was popular. I wouldn't call that thin. In the same era that Thriller was in Born in the USA and Dancing in the Dark by Springsteen were both extremely popular and had high powered production but they still had a level of depth about them I can't find in MJ tracks. Born in the USA represented Reagan's America with harsh reality hidden in gluttonous style and power. It was "yeah we're Born in the USA let's pump our fists" but when looked at carefully in lyric you saw the pain and struggle of the forgotten and pushed aside. Even the synthesizer had this hidden sadness to it that 99% of the Yuppies that bought the album wouldn't realize or accept. I could write an 90 page thesis on that song. Dancing in the Dark in essence is about frustration. Frustration of the character in the song looking for connection and about frustration of the songwriter looking for a hit to appeaase his band and manager who felt the album was missing something. It's not just about a guy looking for a girl or sex, it's about a singer not being able to come to terms with his integrity. "This gun's for hire" like a prostitute, even if it's just "Dancing in the Dark". Here's your fucking hit song he says now leave me alone. Incredible depth for two of the biggest hit songs of the flashiest decade.
When I called MJ Dan Brown I meant lyrically. Wilde was an amazing writer, and the difference between Steinbeck and Wilde in writing is nothing like the difference between Bruce and Michael in lyrics.
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lyric writing ability= song writing ability
I think your arguments rely heavily on the above premise^
-T
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michael jackson is a muhfuckin legend, true one of a kind talent, amazing artist, one of the all time greats of any genre, his music has reached and has more replay value than most people, not only has he sold hella records, his shit has been downloaded for joke too, his shit is still recognized by kids and adults, his shit still gets luv in clubs....
Michael is a great, nuttin else worth reading
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+1 lyrical g
shallow, talking with diverse cats like you is one of the things I like best about this board man. +1
-T
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the Girl Is Mine
Off The Wall >> Thriller
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I think off the wall is about as dope as thriller. but it's hard to say one's better than the other to me
-T
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lyric writing ability= song writing ability
I think your arguments rely heavily on the above premise^
-T
I don't quite get what you mean. Are you saying they are the same, or that they are equally important, or that I'm saying they are equally important?
For the record I wouldn'tconsider my points arguments. An argument would be trying to explain to you why I'm right. If you said welfare helps the poor in the long run the way it's set up in this society I would argue with you. Saying you love the Thriller album why I don't like it all that much isn't something I'd argue. I'm just giving my opinions on what I feel constitutes being good music.
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i'm saying that's what it seemed to be what you're saying.
i think it takes alot of craft to express things through musical nuances in tone and melody as well as the words. alot of people interpret the sound of tracks like billie jean and wanna be startin somethin as very paranoid outcries and that reflects cold war mentality etc. too but because the lyrics involve sex/hint at sex at times it's shallow or poorer songwriting than springsteen?
the only thing I'm arguing with, really, is you saying MJ is like Bacstreet boys when in musical reality he is much closer to a marvin gaye, stevie wonder than he is a justin timberlake or a backstreet boys you know?
let me elaborate just a bit, the chronic is a pop album but it doesn't make it any less hardcore gangsta rap.
michael jackson late 70's early 80's at least was primarily a r and b, funk, wonder/tower/scaggz/gaye type dude. just cause his shit BLEW the fuck up doesn't strip it of its musical nature and place it squarely into the 'catchy but unsubstantial and popular music' category you know?
i'm sure it's not what you intend, but it just comes across as knockin' it cause it's so popular.
-T