West Coast Connection Forum

Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Westcoastin' on November 28, 2007, 12:44:47 AM

Title: is a State a State if no other nation recognizes it as one?
Post by: Westcoastin' on November 28, 2007, 12:44:47 AM
any of yall any good with international law?  I need to figure out if Somaliland should be considered an actual state

On May 18, 1991, the people of Somaliland declared independence from Somalia. However, it has not been recognized by any other country or international organization. It is completely within the borders of Somalia... but has its own government and constitution.

Im leaning towards no.. but dont particularily have a good reason

any thoughts are appreciated and will be propped
Title: Re: is a State a State if no other nation recognizes it as one?
Post by: Good Morning on November 28, 2007, 12:47:37 AM
no. in spirit maybe but democracy and structure pretty much cover the globes population and you cant operate your own society without having to adhere to its concepts.
Title: Re: is a State a State if no other nation recognizes it as one?
Post by: boycriedwolf619 on November 28, 2007, 08:06:56 AM
no. in spirit maybe but democracy and structure pretty much cover the globes population and you cant operate your own society without having to adhere to its concepts.
yea pretty much
Title: Re: is a State a State if no other nation recognizes it as one?
Post by: King Tech Quadafi on November 28, 2007, 08:18:40 AM
any of yall any good with international law?  I need to figure out if Somaliland should be considered an actual state

On May 18, 1991, the people of Somaliland declared independence from Somalia. However, it has not been recognized by any other country or international organization. It is completely within the borders of Somalia... but has its own government and constitution.

Im leaning towards no.. but dont particularily have a good reason

any thoughts are appreciated and will be propped

This is an interesting subject and rather tricky.

Technically, unless there is widespread recognition (international bodies, major western countries), a country would not be technically considered a state. However, that does not change the facts on the ground. And in politics, the facts on the ground determine all.

For example, in the mid to late 90s the Taliban controlled the capital and the majority of Afghanistan. However they were only recognized by three countries. So internationally, their regime was not recognized as the legitimate ruling body. The opposition Northern Alliance was. So it was the NA that chaired Afghanistans seat at the UN, etc.

However, when it come to dealing with Afghanistan, no one went through the NA because while recognized, they were not a factor on the ground. Aid agencies, the US, EU all dealt with the Taliban when it came to human rights, poppy growth, aid etc etc

Thats a case of recognition of government.

The same principle applies to de facto states like Somaliland, or the way Chechnya used to be (before Russian forcibly re-incorporated it) and how Kosovo very well will be like in the future. Whiile not recognized, they have all the trappings of a state. They are, de facto and essentially, a state. Not recognized, but in a way every country recognizes they are independent. If they have to deal with them, they will go them to talk, regardless of recognition or not

As for Somaliland, they are a state, recognition or not. In fact, its a crime that the international world has turned its back on Somaliland. While the  rest of Somalia descends into anarchy and chaos, Somaliland has created a viable democratic system and disarmened its population, while boosting its economy without any international assistance.
Title: Re: is a State a State if no other nation recognizes it as one?
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 28, 2007, 10:31:26 AM
Look at the Palestinians. Most of the world (minus like 5-6 states) recognizes their national rights in the territories conquered by Israel in 1967 and yet such a state doesn't exist cause the world's leading superpower and its proxy are opposed.
Title: Re: is a State a State if no other nation recognizes it as one?
Post by: Westcoastin' on November 28, 2007, 10:45:06 AM


Technically, unless there is widespread recognition (international bodies, major western countries), a country would not be technically considered a state. However, that does not change the facts on the ground. And in politics, the facts on the ground determine all.

For example, in the mid to late 90s the Taliban controlled the capital and the majority of Afghanistan. However they were only recognized by three countries. So internationally, their regime was not recognized as the legitimate ruling body. The opposition Northern Alliance was. So it was the NA that chaired Afghanistans seat at the UN, etc.

However, when it come to dealing with Afghanistan, no one went through the NA because while recognized, they were not a factor on the ground. Aid agencies, the US, EU all dealt with the Taliban when it came to human rights, poppy growth, aid etc etc

Thats a case of recognition of government.

The same principle applies to de facto states like Somaliland, or the way Chechnya used to be (before Russian forcibly re-incorporated it) and how Kosovo very well will be like in the future. Whiile not recognized, they have all the trappings of a state. They are, de facto and essentially, a state. Not recognized, but in a way every country recognizes they are independent. If they have to deal with them, they will go them to talk, regardless of recognition or not

As for Somaliland, they are a state, recognition or not. In fact, its a crime that the international world has turned its back on Somaliland. While the  rest of Somalia descends into anarchy and chaos, Somaliland has created a viable democratic system and disarmened its population, while boosting its economy without any international assistance.

thats an interesting point,  recognition of government as opposed to recognition of state...    It's like milking a cow without officially telling other farmers you think its an animal

It is clear that official recognition from other bodies is not the only requirement to be a state..  I'm going to argue that Somaliland should be considered one because:

- It has a permanent population (not nomadic)
- It has a defined territory ( it's eastern borders are disputed, but so are the borders of many recognized states )
- It has its own constitution, government and judicial system
- It has its own military (roughly 20 000 active personnel)
- Tech's point.... it has the capacity to have relationships with other states, it has had some dealings with the EU and a few other countries, and will most likely be recognized by the African Union soon

+1 to everyone!
Title: Re: is a State a State if no other nation recognizes it as one?
Post by: M Dogg™ on November 30, 2007, 01:25:29 PM
Side note... it took years before we recognized the People's Republic of China, as we delt with Taiwan, or as they called themselves... the Republic of China. But everyone in actual China was living in the People's Republic, so we can recognize what we will, the details on the ground are the actual facts. Another side note, the Vatican didn't recognize for many years that the Protestian country of the United States ran the states that were once Mexico (a Catholic country), claiming that California, New Mexico, Texas, Arizona, Nevada, Colorado and Utah were still part of Mexico. This is obviously not true as I would be speaking Spanish if that's the case.
Title: Re: is a State a State if no other nation recognizes it as one?
Post by: Narrator on November 30, 2007, 01:38:37 PM
I doubt anybody is going to recognize the Pan-African Socialist Republic of America once it comes into existence via my revolution.

That doesn't change the fact that anyone who speaks out against it will lose their hands, or worse.
Title: Re: is a State a State if no other nation recognizes it as one?
Post by: M Dogg™ on November 30, 2007, 01:49:01 PM
I doubt anybody is going to recognize the Pan-African Socialist Republic of America once it comes into existence via my revolution.

That doesn't change the fact that anyone who speaks out against it will lose their hands, or worse.

not if my Latin States of America comes first.
Title: Re: is a State a State if no other nation recognizes it as one?
Post by: Narrator on December 02, 2007, 11:21:39 AM
not if my Latin States of America comes first.

Never gonna happen.  RUF is taking over shit.  Fuck with us and you lose your hands, bitch!
Title: Re: is a State a State if no other nation recognizes it as one?
Post by: virtuoso on December 02, 2007, 01:03:28 PM

The level of stupidity of that latin states of america comment is just mind blowing. The mexicans can not take Mexico, that is why they flee to the United States. The establishment knows that the hundreds of millions of mexicans who will come into the united states in the next few decades, will blow out the economy and many of them are full of the same nationalistic sentiment which will lead to a big race war. The establishment knows this and it allows it to continue because the plan is to balkanise America. You think you are sneak attacking them when they are the ones who are allowing you in. They hold the key to the gates and the dumbass racist mexicans are walking straight into a trap. The one chance of a semblance of freedom is the United States and yet many clueless dumb mexicans seem intent on tearing it all apart.
Title: Re: is a State a State if no other nation recognizes it as one?
Post by: Infinite Trapped in 1996 on December 08, 2007, 10:34:54 AM
any of yall any good with international law?  I need to figure out if Somaliland should be considered an actual state

On May 18, 1991, the people of Somaliland declared independence from Somalia. However, it has not been recognized by any other country or international organization. It is completely within the borders of Somalia... but has its own government and constitution.

Im leaning towards no.. but dont particularily have a good reason

any thoughts are appreciated and will be propped

A state is not a state unless the white man says it is.
Title: Re: is a State a State if no other nation recognizes it as one?
Post by: LooN3y on December 10, 2007, 08:27:55 PM
any of yall any good with international law?  I need to figure out if Somaliland should be considered an actual state

On May 18, 1991, the people of Somaliland declared independence from Somalia. However, it has not been recognized by any other country or international organization. It is completely within the borders of Somalia... but has its own government and constitution.

Im leaning towards no.. but dont particularily have a good reason

any thoughts are appreciated and will be propped

A state is not a state unless the white man says it is.
Title: Re: is a State a State if no other nation recognizes it as one?
Post by: REGIME MOB 510 on December 10, 2007, 09:31:07 PM
Nigga fuck all that shit, SELL ROCKS!!!  8)