West Coast Connection Forum

Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: M Dogg™ on August 28, 2013, 08:21:36 AM

Title: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: M Dogg™ on August 28, 2013, 08:21:36 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/USVA4g095AA?hl=en_US&version=3&rel=0

Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Sami on August 28, 2013, 12:10:47 PM
That it has. Markets are amoral and care only about profit.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Russell Bell on September 02, 2013, 07:16:48 PM
govt is amoral, as it pretends to know who should get what and when.

whereas freedom is neither moral or immoral.  cornell and mdogg dont realize that.

and mfrogg if youre taking cornell west seriously, then youve got problems son.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: M Dogg™ on September 02, 2013, 07:36:52 PM
govt is amoral, as it pretends to know who should get what and when.

whereas freedom is neither moral or immoral.  cornell and mdogg dont realize that.

and mfrogg if youre taking cornell west seriously, then youve got problems son.

A dead clock is right 2 times a day. And in this case this clock is right on in this area. Plus, I'm not saying government is the solution either. The solution is the community, it's people. It's local government who represent their neighbors and know their neighbors. I'd argue that the federal government is to big to be effective, but there needs to be some sort of localized government in which people come together, talk police and law, talk education and schools, talk local fire. This is at the heart of society. Markets are a-moral and they don't look at what's best for communities. They look out for what's best for money, and money does not care about people.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Hack Wilson - real on September 02, 2013, 07:38:33 PM
^ not a dead digital clock
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: M Dogg™ on September 02, 2013, 07:50:41 PM
^ not a dead digital clock

Cornell West is too old to be a digital clock... LOL
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Aladin on September 02, 2013, 10:57:13 PM
I disagree.

The problem is not the market driven economy.
I don't believe in fixed prices, a market should be a place where demand an supply should meet.
The problem is that it is not a free market for everyone.
Although they claim it is.

 A FREE market would give everyone an equal  chance 2 earn their living.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Russell Bell on September 02, 2013, 11:23:07 PM
govt is amoral, as it pretends to know who should get what and when.

whereas freedom is neither moral or immoral.  cornell and mdogg dont realize that.

and mfrogg if youre taking cornell west seriously, then youve got problems son.

A dead clock is right 2 times a day. And in this case this clock is right on in this area. Plus, I'm not saying government is the solution either. The solution is the community, it's people. It's local government who represent their neighbors and know their neighbors. I'd argue that the federal government is to big to be effective, but there needs to be some sort of localized government in which people come together, talk police and law, talk education and schools, talk local fire. This is at the heart of society. Markets are a-moral and they don't look at what's best for communities. They look out for what's best for money, and money does not care about people.

either this is a new revelation for you, or you dont believe this.  you voted for obama and hes not about having local decisions hes about decisions at the federal level 100%.  im not an anarchist, im a libertarian and i think that most decisions should be made at the very very local level.  IE why should politicians from san fran and LA be making the decisions that rule my life.  and thats not even counting the ones in DC, they shouldnt be touching education etc etc.  theyre actually ruining education one law/regulation/oversight at a time, but thats just one example. 
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: M Dogg™ on September 03, 2013, 04:36:44 AM
govt is amoral, as it pretends to know who should get what and when.

whereas freedom is neither moral or immoral.  cornell and mdogg dont realize that.

and mfrogg if youre taking cornell west seriously, then youve got problems son.

A dead clock is right 2 times a day. And in this case this clock is right on in this area. Plus, I'm not saying government is the solution either. The solution is the community, it's people. It's local government who represent their neighbors and know their neighbors. I'd argue that the federal government is to big to be effective, but there needs to be some sort of localized government in which people come together, talk police and law, talk education and schools, talk local fire. This is at the heart of society. Markets are a-moral and they don't look at what's best for communities. They look out for what's best for money, and money does not care about people.

either this is a new revelation for you, or you dont believe this.  you voted for obama and hes not about having local decisions hes about decisions at the federal level 100%.  im not an anarchist, im a libertarian and i think that most decisions should be made at the very very local level.  IE why should politicians from san fran and LA be making the decisions that rule my life.  and thats not even counting the ones in DC, they shouldnt be touching education etc etc.  theyre actually ruining education one law/regulation/oversight at a time, but thats just one example. 

Yeah, well I voted for Obama and Obama wants to go into Syria and I disagree with that too. I'm not married to the man.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Russell Bell on September 03, 2013, 06:16:53 AM
govt is amoral, as it pretends to know who should get what and when.

whereas freedom is neither moral or immoral.  cornell and mdogg dont realize that.

and mfrogg if youre taking cornell west seriously, then youve got problems son.

A dead clock is right 2 times a day. And in this case this clock is right on in this area. Plus, I'm not saying government is the solution either. The solution is the community, it's people. It's local government who represent their neighbors and know their neighbors. I'd argue that the federal government is to big to be effective, but there needs to be some sort of localized government in which people come together, talk police and law, talk education and schools, talk local fire. This is at the heart of society. Markets are a-moral and they don't look at what's best for communities. They look out for what's best for money, and money does not care about people.

either this is a new revelation for you, or you dont believe this.  you voted for obama and hes not about having local decisions hes about decisions at the federal level 100%.  im not an anarchist, im a libertarian and i think that most decisions should be made at the very very local level.  IE why should politicians from san fran and LA be making the decisions that rule my life.  and thats not even counting the ones in DC, they shouldnt be touching education etc etc.  theyre actually ruining education one law/regulation/oversight at a time, but thats just one example. 

Yeah, well I voted for Obama and Obama wants to go into Syria and I disagree with that too. I'm not married to the man.

but my point is, and this is my issue with your politics really, that obamas whole philosophy is govt driven solutions.  he says it, and thats what hes been about.  so again, either you just found this philosophy or you dont really believe it. 
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: M Dogg™ on September 03, 2013, 07:11:40 AM
govt is amoral, as it pretends to know who should get what and when.

whereas freedom is neither moral or immoral.  cornell and mdogg dont realize that.

and mfrogg if youre taking cornell west seriously, then youve got problems son.

A dead clock is right 2 times a day. And in this case this clock is right on in this area. Plus, I'm not saying government is the solution either. The solution is the community, it's people. It's local government who represent their neighbors and know their neighbors. I'd argue that the federal government is to big to be effective, but there needs to be some sort of localized government in which people come together, talk police and law, talk education and schools, talk local fire. This is at the heart of society. Markets are a-moral and they don't look at what's best for communities. They look out for what's best for money, and money does not care about people.

either this is a new revelation for you, or you dont believe this.  you voted for obama and hes not about having local decisions hes about decisions at the federal level 100%.  im not an anarchist, im a libertarian and i think that most decisions should be made at the very very local level.  IE why should politicians from san fran and LA be making the decisions that rule my life.  and thats not even counting the ones in DC, they shouldnt be touching education etc etc.  theyre actually ruining education one law/regulation/oversight at a time, but thats just one example. 

Yeah, well I voted for Obama and Obama wants to go into Syria and I disagree with that too. I'm not married to the man.

but my point is, and this is my issue with your politics really, that obamas whole philosophy is govt driven solutions.  he says it, and thats what hes been about.  so again, either you just found this philosophy or you dont really believe it. 

Remember, I was heavy for Obama in 2007-08, and I said then I agree with 80% of what he is about. Not 100%. Over time, I have aged, gotten older and have grown wiser. I'd say I'm still about 55% in agreement with Obama. I like the IDEA of a national healthcare plan, but Obamacare is not the answer. I prefer a single payer system. I think that federal government is WAY too large to enforce things like drug laws, marriage laws, and ANYTHING to do with education. BUT there should be some national standard that the federal government has that gives local governments guidelines, like with education the government should say that by 3rd grade your kids should read, write a paragraph and be able to multiply. Or that well drugs are decriminalize, local government should be able to provide help for those who use drugs, and if local governments can't afford to do so, the federal government can set aside money for local government to use.

Being involved with my local Democratic Party for 4 years during Obama's first term, I saw government as different. Once it hits Washington, ideas become washed out and you get crap. Instead, the federal government should be able to support local governments, and most of the decisions should be done by local government. I said as much last spring when I said that Washington is were politicians go to get corrupted but local government is were the actual running of government happens. So we should break down Washington and make it so it really only functions to have a military, federal mail, set standards and guidelines for local governments to follow, and be able to support local governments, have a single payer health care system, and provide a safety net for people in case of unemployment and keep Social Security.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Infinite Trapped in 1996 on September 03, 2013, 09:17:28 AM
I watched the whole video, MDogg.  Thanks for posting, homie.  I agree with Dr. Cornell West on Somalia, drones, Malcolm and Martin's dream of attending the United Nations together, Al Sharpton.... but when it comes to economics this guy is a socialist, and socialism and entitlement programs have only lead to a further decay of the "black integrity" that he's talking about.

The free market actually creates virtue.  Because a person has an economic incentive to produce, build a reputation, and if they fail in doing so then they will not live a profitable life.

When you have socialism and entitlement programs it encourages everybody to become a victim so that they can receive handouts from the government (by way of the taxpayers), the whole system and economy then becomes dragged down and loses efficiency.  As Libertarian mastermind Harry Browne says, "If you try to use government programs to aid 100 poor and sick people, then upon helping those 100 people, you will find that the following day you will have 1,000 such poor and sick people waiting in line for the same handouts".  

The problem is not the free market.  It's because of advancements in the free market that you were even able to post this youtube video on this forum.  It's actually the free market that ended slavery.  How did the free market end slavery?  Because it was the industrialization of the North that really challenged the impetus for slavery at it's root.

Thank God for the free market!
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: M Dogg™ on September 03, 2013, 09:30:14 AM
The free market is a tool and it has it's place. But society cannot be ran by the free market. The free market has to run in order to serve the people, and that's were THIS society has it wrong. We used the free market for years to help us, but now we have flipped and do what we need to prop up the free market and put the market above people. That's Fascism my friend.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Fraxxx on September 03, 2013, 09:54:28 AM
The free market is a tool and it has it's place. But society cannot be ran by the free market. The free market has to run in order to serve the people, and that's were THIS society has it wrong. We used the free market for years to help us, but now we have flipped and do what we need to prop up the free market and put the market above people. That's Fascism my friend.

I'm all for a little governmental regulation. Especially cuz I think that the free market has no conscious. But what's going on right now and for a long time before is a corrupted and perverted idea of a free market. It's corporatism and politicians bending over for money. It's as perverted as the socialism in so-called socialist countries which, as well, where corrupt through and through.

I find the free-market-perversion to be much more flexible. It works in making people at least believe that the system is good for them.

Finding sensible, sustainable solutions on a local/regional level, like Russel said, would be a good idea. But that's not gonna happen. How would folks get filthy rich then?
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Infinite Trapped in 1996 on September 03, 2013, 10:06:32 AM
The free market is a tool and it has it's place. But society cannot be ran by the free market. The free market has to run in order to serve the people, and that's were THIS society has it wrong. We used the free market for years to help us, but now we have flipped and do what we need to prop up the free market and put the market above people. That's Fascism my friend.

The free market always serves the people MDogg.  I would love to hear you explain to me exactly how the free market does not serve the people?  The free market by it's very essence has to serve the people, because it's very livelihood depends upon consumer purchaser.  The wants and needs of the consumer have to be served.  Profiting off consumers is the name of the game.

Please explain to me how the free market does not serve the people?  I have to hear this one.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Fraxxx on September 03, 2013, 10:12:13 AM
The free market is a tool and it has it's place. But society cannot be ran by the free market. The free market has to run in order to serve the people, and that's were THIS society has it wrong. We used the free market for years to help us, but now we have flipped and do what we need to prop up the free market and put the market above people. That's Fascism my friend.

The free market always serves the people MDogg.  I would love to hear you explain to me exactly how the free market does not serve the people?  The free market by it's very essence has to serve the people, because it's very livelihood depends upon consumer purchaser.  The wants and needs of the consumer have to be served.  Profiting off consumers is the name of the game.

Please explain to me how the free market does not serve the people?  I have to hear this one.

The constant feeding of bullshit to people through media aka advertising alone leaves people VERY confused about what they want or even need.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Infinite Trapped in 1996 on September 03, 2013, 10:26:56 AM


The constant feeding of bullshit to people through media aka advertising alone leaves people VERY confused about what they want or even need.

I am not arguing as to whether or not what they feed is bullshit.  It may very well be bullshit.  I am arguing that whether bullshit or not, they are indeed serving the people.  You can't make money without serving the people.  Consumers are the life-blood of any business in the free-market.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Fraxxx on September 03, 2013, 10:43:27 AM


The constant feeding of bullshit to people through media aka advertising alone leaves people VERY confused about what they want or even need.

I am not arguing as to whether or not what they feed is bullshit.  It may very well be bullshit.  I am arguing that whether bullshit or not, they are indeed serving the people.  You can't make money without serving the people.  Consumers are the life-blood of any business in the free-market.

But when it's all about making money, the system is bullshit in the first place. I strongly believe that making money shouldn't be the incentive to do what you're doing.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Teddy Roosevelt on September 03, 2013, 11:18:23 AM
The free market is a tool and it has it's place. But society cannot be ran by the free market. The free market has to run in order to serve the people, and that's were THIS society has it wrong. We used the free market for years to help us, but now we have flipped and do what we need to prop up the free market and put the market above people. That's Fascism my friend.

The free market always serves the people MDogg.  I would love to hear you explain to me exactly how the free market does not serve the people?  The free market by it's very essence has to serve the people, because it's very livelihood depends upon consumer purchaser.  The wants and needs of the consumer have to be served.  Profiting off consumers is the name of the game.

Please explain to me how the free market does not serve the people?  I have to hear this one.

The constant feeding of bullshit to people through media aka advertising alone leaves people VERY confused about what they want or even need.
What's the solution to that? There really isn't one. There is no consensus on what is needed so who decides? The only option is to have a governing body regulate advertising and come up with a standard for what people need and/or want. However that would just be a bunch of elitists deciding what's best for everyone. We already have that in a federal government that has ridiculous drug laws, Draconian criminal sentencing, are intrusive in marriages and have stupid standards for public schools. On top of that, they've continue to push the USA to the verge of bankruptcy.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Teddy Roosevelt on September 03, 2013, 11:21:13 AM


The constant feeding of bullshit to people through media aka advertising alone leaves people VERY confused about what they want or even need.

I am not arguing as to whether or not what they feed is bullshit.  It may very well be bullshit.  I am arguing that whether bullshit or not, they are indeed serving the people.  You can't make money without serving the people.  Consumers are the life-blood of any business in the free-market.

But when it's all about making money, the system is bullshit in the first place. I strongly believe that making money shouldn't be the incentive to do what you're doing.
Why does anyone have a job? Sure they ideally work in a feild they like, but most people wouldn't have a job if making money was taken out of the equation.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Fraxxx on September 03, 2013, 11:28:38 AM
The free market is a tool and it has it's place. But society cannot be ran by the free market. The free market has to run in order to serve the people, and that's were THIS society has it wrong. We used the free market for years to help us, but now we have flipped and do what we need to prop up the free market and put the market above people. That's Fascism my friend.

The free market always serves the people MDogg.  I would love to hear you explain to me exactly how the free market does not serve the people?  The free market by it's very essence has to serve the people, because it's very livelihood depends upon consumer purchaser.  The wants and needs of the consumer have to be served.  Profiting off consumers is the name of the game.

Please explain to me how the free market does not serve the people?  I have to hear this one.

The constant feeding of bullshit to people through media aka advertising alone leaves people VERY confused about what they want or even need.
What's the solution to that? There really isn't one. There is no consensus on what is needed so who decides? The only option is to have a governing body regulate advertising and come up with a standard for what people need and/or want. However that would just be a bunch of elitists deciding what's best for everyone. We already have that in a federal government that has ridiculous drug laws, Draconian criminal sentencing, are intrusive in marriages and have stupid standards for public schools. On top of that, they've continue to push the USA to the verge of bankruptcy.

Unfortunately very true. But I think that we are constantly driven towards mistaking superficialities for real values. And that's one big nail in the coffin of our society.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Fraxxx on September 03, 2013, 11:37:32 AM


The constant feeding of bullshit to people through media aka advertising alone leaves people VERY confused about what they want or even need.

I am not arguing as to whether or not what they feed is bullshit.  It may very well be bullshit.  I am arguing that whether bullshit or not, they are indeed serving the people.  You can't make money without serving the people.  Consumers are the life-blood of any business in the free-market.


But when it's all about making money, the system is bullshit in the first place. I strongly believe that making money shouldn't be the incentive to do what you're doing.
Why does anyone have a job? Sure they ideally work in a feild they like, but most people wouldn't have a job if making money was taken out of the equation.

I'm about to finish up here, about to leave... I just think that the way Infinite thinks of the free market and its purpose is an end in itself an has no real purpose for the people. Later.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Infinite Trapped in 1996 on September 03, 2013, 11:53:45 AM

What's the solution to that? There really isn't one. There is no consensus on what is needed so who decides? The only option is to have a governing body regulate advertising and come up with a standard for what people need and/or want. However that would just be a bunch of elitists deciding what's best for everyone. We already have that in a federal government that has ridiculous drug laws, Draconian criminal sentencing, are intrusive in marriages and have stupid standards for public schools. On top of that, they've continue to push the USA to the verge of bankruptcy.

Exactly.  

And really no matter what it is you like the market is going to try to provide for you.  For example... Sure, a lot of ignorant people may be find with shoveling Big Macs from McDonalds into their system.  But, for the people with more refined tastes and consciousness you also have health food stores, whole foods markets, wild oats grocery store.  Feel me?  Don't underestimate the problem solving abilities of the free market!


Good work, Teddy Roosevelt... although, what you said was very much unlike Teddy Roosevelt.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Infinite Trapped in 1996 on September 03, 2013, 11:58:29 AM

But when it's all about making money, the system is bullshit in the first place. I strongly believe that making money shouldn't be the incentive to do what you're doing.


Money doesn't have to be an incentive to do what you are doing.  For example, I enjoy listening to 80's love songs.   There is no economic incentive for me to listen to 80's love songs.  Nobody is paying me to listen to them, but I do it anyway, because it's what I love to do. 

The problem occurs when I expect someone to pay me for listening to 80's love songs.  Why should they pay me?  What right do I have to demand that they pay me for listening to 80's love songs?   If I want them to give me of their precious resources, then it is up to me to provide them something that they deem worthy of payment.



Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: Teddy Roosevelt on September 03, 2013, 12:32:02 PM

What's the solution to that? There really isn't one. There is no consensus on what is needed so who decides? The only option is to have a governing body regulate advertising and come up with a standard for what people need and/or want. However that would just be a bunch of elitists deciding what's best for everyone. We already have that in a federal government that has ridiculous drug laws, Draconian criminal sentencing, are intrusive in marriages and have stupid standards for public schools. On top of that, they've continue to push the USA to the verge of bankruptcy.

Exactly. 

And really no matter what it is you like the market is going to try to provide for you.  For example... Sure, a lot of ignorant people may be find with shoveling Big Macs from McDonalds into their system.  But, for the people with more refined tastes and consciousness you also have health food stores, whole foods markets, wild oats grocery store.  Feel me?  Don't underestimate the problem solving abilities of the free market!


Good work, Teddy Roosevelt... although, what you said was very much unlike Teddy Roosevelt.
I have Roosevelt as my user name mainly because we have the same first name.
Title: Re: Market-driven culture has destroyed virtue
Post by: V2DHeart on September 04, 2013, 02:41:51 AM
Voting for anyone is permitting someone else to govern you rather than yourself. It's providing the consent required to be farmed like cattle by a selected farmer and you give up more than you think by voting, but then that's the whole aim of the political process. Even when they introduce rouge candidates (IE; Ron Paul) at a time when peoples confidence in politics is decreased, all they do is bring in a rouge candidate and return people to the political system as well as create a database of "potential troublemakers" to the structure of the system (ie; who is against them). We need direct democracy, but we don't even have democracy. Getting to select a leader from a short list of bought and paid for crooks and liars every 4 years is hardly democracy.

We need to educate our children on the basis of this modern slavery. We need to make sure they know that we have 2 laws - One is the universal law, common, which is the simplest and easiest one to understand --> No loss, harm or injury to anyone or their property and to not use fraud or mischief in your contracts

It is a law very easy and basic to understand. It is the ONLY true law. Today we have statutes and government legislation masquerading as the LAW but it isn't law. That's why you hear anyone who breaks a government RULE commits an "ILLEGAL" act, but not an UNLAWFUL act, because legal and lawful are different.

Schools are a waste of time. You are not taught to think for yourself, rather be rewarded on memorizing and repeating what you are told.

This entire thing is run on contractual law, and we give the government the consent to own our youth like cattle and profitable product the minute we transfer ownership of them through the registration process.

Unfortunately, trying to teach children is easier than adults, and it's difficult to get through with the truth when media and society continually spread lies and keep everyone in the dark