West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Woodrow on October 27, 2003, 09:49:15 PM
-
I've been doing some research trying to find out that more about Islam. What I've found is in essence, there are two Islams in the world. One a religion of peace, and one a religion of hatred and violence. I'm annoyed that I had to spend so much time digging to find this out - everything actually makes SENSE (sort of) once it's in context. (note: This is just what I've gathered reading English-language sites on the subject and having read parts of the Quran as I get a chance. Any Muslims, please correct me if I'm off.)
Okay, according to the Quran, back in the 700s, Mohammed went up a mountain and stayed there for 40 days. God spoke to him and said, in essence, "You guys have been fucking everything up for too long. So instead of sending you a human, I'm going to tell EXACTLY what I expect of you and have Mohammed here write it down for me. Now shut up and listen."
So, as the story goes, the Quran was directly dictated by God. Mohammed didn't write it himself, he was just the Messenger. (this is an important distinction. Even Mohammed himself was forbidden from interpreting the Quran for others, or adding rules to it. The one time he tried, he was punished by God.) And the Quran, along with a whole lot of legalistic commands similar to the Torah, also contained a whole lot of good advice on getting along with others. Among other things, Muslims are absolutely forbidden to be aggressors in any situation, and may only go to war in self-defense. (punishment for murder is another thing you can get 187'd over)
It further specifies that Jews, Christians, Muslims, and any offshoot branches (anyone who's monotheistic, believes in the End Days, and is sincere in their worship of God) are ALL Children of God, and should not fight at all. There are also commandments saying that any person who has not declared or shown himself personally to be an enemy of Islam is to be considered a friend, they are commanded to take in ANY refugees as guests regardless of faith or allegiance, and even in times of war, cannot be cruel in any way.
The OTHER thing the Quran said was that it was the last hadith (book) from God. It did, however, include guidelines for how to tell a true book from God from a human-produced fake. But the general attitude is, the Quran is the last Word, period.
This would all be well and good. However, somewhere around 150-200 years after Mohammed's death, a bunch of "new" Hadith started showing up which were claimed to be other writings of Mohammed's. Most Islamic scholars consider them to not be legitimate at all, as they don't live up to the guidelines set forth in the Quran. Unfortunately, these new books were a whole lot less forgiving than the Quran and were very nice for corrupt leaders to use to justify their actions.
It's in these books were you get the stuff and forcibly converting non-believers, launching attacks on enemies, forcing women to wear veils, etc etc. Oh, and all the stuff about martyrs getting however many virgins in Paradise. (if you really want to peruse them, a number of English translations are at the Sacred Texts Archive, but most of them are exceedingly nasty.) The big problem being that in any area where the leadership has adopted one of these books, the citizenry is brought up to absolutely believe whatever extra Hadith is also God's word, and the majority of them don't have the time, education, or inclination to start debunking them.
So there is a second war, of sorts, going on within Islam between those who follow these extra Hadith, and those who believe the Quran is the only book that should be followed. The problem, of course, is the people who follow the extra hadith are the ones going out and blowing up red cross buildings and giving the entire religion a bad name. The Quranists have facts, logic, and history on their side, but they lack the media outlets to get the message out to those who've grown up believing in the other Hadith.
So, that's where the whole "religion of peace" thing comes from. Anyone who says that is almost certainly referring to the Quran alone, and they speak the truth. Anyone who goes and blows up pizza stands is following one of the other books and has been brainwashed to believe this is acceptible.
Tell me if this I'm way off or what. I'd like to understand this religon more and see some of the motives behind all the killing, so keep your replies serious.
-
What you have to understand is that the Qu'ran was written during a time of war. Mohammed spoke of jihad, which literally means "struggle". Struggle within yourself, and with others. The hadith explains this in further details. It doesn't state that it's ok to kill someone, unless they are the AGGRESSOR. In fact, if you kill someone with no reason, you go straight to hell, no matter what good you've don throughout your life. We believ that it's wrong to take the life of another one of God's children. When Mohammed wrote about "fighting" he was referring to the war going on at the time, in which him and his people were not the AGGRESSOR. If you read the hadith in its entirety you will see and understand that it's only in reference to the war that was going on at the time. Islam however does state that it's ok to FIGHT BACK. There is a big dfifference between that and the things that and the things some people have takes out of context. You can take anything out of context and make an entire different meaning out of it. You know the Qu'ran mentions the word "kill" about 30 times, while the Bible mentions it over 400 times. That doesnt mean that Christians are taught to kill, but if I were to take those lines out of context I could make it seem that way. You know what I mean?
I hope I was able to help you out a little bit.
-
Unless one is referring to the 2 sects of Islam (Sunni and Shia), there aren't 2 "islams".
I have a question for you. What makes you and others believe that the actions of those people are driven by religion? That is a widely held misconception. Call me ignorant because FOX news tells you otherwise, but religion plays a very limited role if any in their suicide bombings. Suicide actually is condemned in Islam, and according to the Qu'ran you go straight to hell. There are personal struggles these people face and experience everyday of their lives. They feel like they have nothing else to live for. Their actions are WRONG, but you have to see their side and understand why they're carrying them out. Put yourself in a 16 year old Palestinian boy's position whose family has been killed, has no home, no money,etc. What's the last thing you'd do? In my case I'd avenge my mother's death. I know it sounds horrible, but we don't live in their shoes, we don't know their sufferings. That's all I'm tryng to say; we don't know what they go through. I don't blame Israel either. What can they do? Say "here's your land, we'll go somewhere else"? No. They do what they need to protect their people, but is it necessary to shoot people who are fighting you with sticks and stones? One thing's for sure, a resolution to this chaos has to be found soon. Plus, the U.S. is not making things any better.In fact, there are many Israelis who sympathize with the Palestinians. It's the others (SOME Israeli government officials and the FUCKING US government who will do anything for money)
-
You seem to understand the essence, Englewood, however I find fault with your terminology. While there is this problem of "2 Islams", I dont think the 2nd category can be properly labelled "Hadiths". You have to understand, that the Hadith, especially among Sunni Muslims, is adhered, respected, and followed. The Quran remains the #1 source of law and religion for Muslims, but the Hadith is right under. Its a collection of the Prophets teachings and orders.
The problem is Interpretations in general. The problem is not the Hadith, the Hadith has been and will be followed till the end of time.
The problem is interpretation of said Hadith. Also, following the Prophets passing, there were political disputes that ended in religious splits.
This is why the Muslim world is plagued by cancers such as Wahabism.
-
The problem is Interpretations in general. The problem is not the Hadith, the Hadith has been and will be followed till the end of time.
The problem is interpretation of said Hadith. Also, following the Prophets passing, there were political disputes that ended in religious splits.
This is why the Muslim world is plagued by cancers such as Wahabism.
True...all open to interpretation can lead to struggle & war that is unnecessary...
...unless he is speaking of the %'s ...NOI and Islam ...but i dont think so
-
WOW are you guys actually having a respectful conversation here? god damn
-
wow.....amazin.....
I swear if 1 muthafuca comes and fucks this discussion up.....it's over.....kill U & yur family......
-
lol@this thread
Then there are two versions of Christians in the world the peaceful Christians and then the KKK. ;) ;D There are extremist in every religion :)
-
lol@this thread
Then there are two versions of Christians in the world the peaceful Christians and then the KKK. ;) ;D There are extremist in every religion :)
word
-
The fights are just an extension of the Medieval Crusades..
-
The fights are just an extension of the Medieval Crusades..
Yup, Bush said so himself.
-
lol@this thread
Then there are two versions of Christians in the world the peaceful Christians and then the KKK. ;) ;D There are extremist in every religion :)
Hey Shit-head. Did you read anything I wrote? Go fuck yourself. I'm gonna kill you and your whole famliy. 8)
-
The fights are just an extension of the Medieval Crusades..
Yup, Bush said so himself.
Show me.
-
http://www.mayanastro.freeservers.com/01crusade.HTM (http://www.mayanastro.freeservers.com/01crusade.HTM)
There you go
-
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html (http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html)
Here's another one
-
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html (http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html)
Here's another one
good fast work Sandyboy.. they both were *Eye-Openers*
-
Ok, Can you show me what happend after he said that?
-
Good to see a proper discussion (the first half at least)
Id have to agree that while religion may be an ingredient in these crimes, I think circumstances are more important.
For instance in N.Ireland, it is often said it is Catholics vs Protestants, but in reality the war has nothing to do with the religion itself, just the actions and evil deeds done to the people by "members" oif that religion. Like if a catholic killed a protestant, that protestants family may grow up to hate catholics, but it has nothing to do with their beliefs as such, more to do with what a certain catholic did to them. Of course, some will interpret, or misinterpret things to help there cause and i think that is what engelwood was getting at when talking of the Hadith. Good to see youir educating yourself on the subject, good example to us all.
-
lol@this thread
Then there are two versions of Christians in the world the peaceful Christians and then the KKK. ;) ;D There are extremist in every religion :)
Hey Shit-head. Did you read anything I wrote? Go fuck yourself. I'm gonna kill you and your whole famliy. 8)
Knock down my karma and then shoot yourself.
There are two Islams ;D stop posting stupid shit.
-
Ok, Can you show me what happend after he said that?
Bush realized his mistake and how dumb he is, so he took back what he said.
-
Okay, according to the Quran, back in the 700s, Mohammed went up a mountain and stayed there for 40 days.
I actually believe this was in 610 AD. I believe Mohammed lived from 570-632.
It further specifies that Jews, Christians, Muslims, and any offshoot branches (anyone who's monotheistic, believes in the End Days, and is sincere in their worship of God) are ALL Children of God, and should not fight at all.
Too bad Christians aren't really monotheistic, they preach it but practice polytheism.