West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Suga Foot on February 01, 2004, 10:54:30 PM
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Not Communism; but Communists, how do you view the individuals? Just wunderin.
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i'm not sure really... i think there are varying degrees...
i think i have kinda socialist views from a 'state' point of view, but not from other angles.
it boils down to this for me..
people should be allowed to live their lives however they wish BUT only as long as they dont impose their will on others :)
i also dont think i know enough about communism..
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to me, comunism is not a good idea, i like tio know that if i am smart or clever enough, i can be as rich as i want, equality is good, but on some levels, like laws, not on the money and belongings issue, comunists, i dunno, never met one, but they must be a little different cause they support a sstem based on all out conformity and equality, why anyone would want this bewilders me
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Misguided and ignorant.
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that the thing... but certain aspects i believe in.. which i think are more socialist then communist... like the right to free education, housing and healthcare.
but you dont have a right to a platinum diamond chain, and a benz on spinners.. unless you earn it ;)
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Some are good, some are bad. If Communism ran occordingly to the actual theory it would be the greatest thing in the world but unfortunately people are too greedy.
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Greed isn't a bad thing.
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at the expense of your fellow man it isnt.
there are people in the world keeping others down.. that aint right by me.
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Greed isn't a bad thing.
I guess it depends on your view of things. I'm a charity-giving kinda guy. I always spend money on my friends & family. I don't like having too much money, just enough saved up for College.
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Only Communists I know are the ones at school dressed like bums and handing out copies of The Workers Vanguard. Like Engle said, ignorant and misguided.
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They're gods people just like everybody else, I dont' feel one way or the other about them.
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Some are good, some are bad. If Communism ran occordingly to the actual theory it would be the greatest thing in the world but unfortunately people are too greedy.
True Very true it was totalitarian rulers such as Hitler stalin that took Communism and molded it to their own views and used it too impose their rule on their people. Marx saw it as a way to end social class structers that divided people and government. if we could find someone who could enforce communism without a totalitarian eye but with the way it was meant to be we would lose social institution such as gangs and the rich and no one person would be better than any other. The plus side to that would be no more poverty, but the down side everyone sees is theres no room for advancement. PEople do not understand howmuch Communism actually has influenced our economy and most government programs we lived in a mixed society now.
Communism is also known as the poormans gov't.
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Communism won't work because it places the "Group" needs above the individuals needs. That's inherently wrong and a VERY misguided view about how people work.
"It is said when Pol Pot was a college student in Paris, he swore to bring "pure" communism to Cambodia, and not the bloody, dictatorial, "perverted"-type communism that was put into place in the Soviet Union and elsewhere. Unfortunately, by the time he took over in Cambodia, he found that it was "necessary" to become the most murderous (per capita) dictator in history as people still seemed to want to take care of their families before they took care of his vision for them, and a bloodbath and reign of terror was the only way to squeeze out even a show of cooperation. This step-by-step progression from altruist idealism to butchery and unimaginable horror has been repeated time and time again in country after country."
"The Nazis are well remembered for murdering 10 million people in the implementation of their slogan, 'The public good before the private good,' and the Communist Chinese for murdering 65 million people in the implementation of theirs, 'Serve the people.' Anyone who defends either of these, or any variation of them, on the grounds of their 'good intentions' is an immoral (NOT 'amoral') enabler of the ACTUAL (not just the proverbial) road to hell." -- Rick Gaber
Be sure to check out this book:
The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674076087/qid=1075829268//ref=pd_ka_1/103-5045172-4719862?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
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Communism won't work because it places the "Group" needs above the individuals needs. That's inherently wrong and a VERY misguided view about how people work.
Very true. If people could work that way society would be perfect, but it will never happen.
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Some are good, some are bad. If Communism ran occordingly to the actual theory it would be the greatest thing in the world but unfortunately people are too greedy.
Yeah. And people who consider capatilism a success aren't looking at it from other people's perspective. If you are poor, or your business has just been closed down because Wal-Mart moved in next to you... or if your country has just been invaded by another country who wants to privatize your natural resources; then capatalism isn't so great. I think everyone should have a food and shelter. Capatalism can't gaurantee that. Capatalism forces expensive items to be nessecities that weren't ever nessecities before; because the technology is controlling us... Rather than us controlling the technology.
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Some are good, some are bad. If Communism ran occordingly to the actual theory it would be the greatest thing in the world but unfortunately people are too greedy.
Yeah. And people who consider capatilism a success aren't looking at it from other people's perspective. If you are poor, or your business has just been closed down because Wal-Mart moved in next to you... or if your country has just been invaded by another country who wants to privatize your natural resources; then capatalism isn't so great. I think everyone should have a food and shelter. Capatalism can't gaurantee that. Capatalism forces expensive items to be nessecities that weren't ever nessecities before; because the technology is controlling us... Rather than us controlling the technology.
This is exactly why we live in a mixed economy, programs like WIC, Welfare, Medicare, and Medicaid. are the basis of communism, government controlling peoples lives to elimante class structure using various programs like these and these are in place for the poor, the people u describe there. When your ric your a republican, when your poor youra communist.
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Yeah. And people who consider capatilism a success aren't looking at it from other people's perspective. If you are poor, or your business has just been closed down because Wal-Mart moved in next to you... or if your country has just been invaded by another country who wants to privatize your natural resources; then capatalism isn't so great. I think everyone should have a food and shelter. Capatalism can't gaurantee that. Capatalism forces expensive items to be nessecities that weren't ever nessecities before; because the technology is controlling us... Rather than us controlling the technology.
Wrong...
Wealth does not create poverty.
"Evidence abounds that the fundamental cause of Third World poverty is not First World greed... it is the economic, political and social obstacles that developing nations themselves raise to progress by their aspiring poor." -Katherine Kersten
"Capitalism is not just a system for producing wealth. It is, above all else, a system based on the noblest moral principle: the protection of the individual's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Free markets are founded on the individual's right to pursue a career, trade the products of his effort, and enjoy the wealth he has earned without having to seek permission from others or pay ransom for the privilege of living." - Robert W. Tracinski
I'd like to see you try and explain how the world is a worse place because of capitalism.
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Communism won't work because it places the "Group" needs above the individuals needs. That's inherently wrong and a VERY misguided view about how people work.
Very true. If people could work that way society would be perfect, but it will never happen.
The way I look at it is this: If you say that the "group needs" are more important than an "individuals needs", dosen't that mean that some people's rights are more imporant than others? That's a fucked up way of thinking. It amazes me that people will preach all day about equal rights, and then go on to tell people about how great communism is.
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Communism won't work because it places the "Group" needs above the individuals needs. That's inherently wrong and a VERY misguided view about how people work.
Very true. If people could work that way society would be perfect, but it will never happen.
The way I look at it is this: If you say that the "group needs" are more important than an "individuals needs", dosen't that mean that some people's rights are more imporant than others? That's a fucked up way of thinking. It amazes me that people will preach all day about equal rights, and then go on to tell people about how great communism is.
Perhaps, that's not the way I look at it though. To me, the way I see it is that the everyone is the "group" and everyone is equal. Actually, I believe that's the basis of the actual Communist theory. Of course as we've seen with History, Communism has never worked except in Cuba, where the situation DID improve, although it's still not perfect there.
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Some people would like to think that it's the poor peoples fault that they are poor. If this is the case, then why have certain groups, races, countries, tribes, communities; always been at the bottom? Why should the Native American community always live in the poorest conditions? The Native Americans have for centuries been the doormats of Western Civilization. Is this because they are inferior? Tell me why they are continually at the bottom? Why do black people make up 13% of the population but 50% of the prison population in America? Why are blacks, Native Americans, and Mexican communitites performing all the hard labor in this country and earning pennies.
Capatilism is a system that allows the rich to stay rich and the poor to stay poor. Rich people run our government. They perpetuate the system. Special interest groups write the rules in this country.
There has however; been some good in capatalism as well. America is the most efficient country in the world in my opinion. I have travelled to several countries. In America, if you go to an institution, and they tell you something will be done in 3-5 days, you can count on it. In alot of other countries things get done whenever people get around to it.
So there is good and bad in capatalism.
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^^ Also I'd like to add...
In the Islamic system of economics the poor has rights over the wealthy.
Many Americans like to say about the poor; "I don't owe them anything. I worked hard for my money, I don't owe them anything." This is not the Islamic system.
It's not just a "good" or "nice" thing in Islam to give charity. In the Islamic economic system you have to pay the poor due or you will face harsh penelties. You DO owe them something. Also, charging interest is forbidden in Islam; and you are not aloud to pile up or hoard wealth.
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This topic has gone a bit off track but at least people are talking rationally about it. Here's my take, please give it a read it took a while to type...
I believe communism is not a bad idea, but a flawed one, and one which will never work on its own.
I believe capitalism is not a bad idea, a flawed one which again can't work on its own.
I believe that each of these systems has an awful lot to offer and they should be the basis for a successful society. Imagine we had a blank canvas from which to construct a societal system. This is how I feel it would work the best...
Aspects of communism must be adopted. I think we all would like to feel that if we put in a hard days work, are good people, then we wont nevertheless end up in poverty due to uncontrollable circumstances. This is why I think we should have structures in place to provide free quality health care to those who need it, grant aid for those born into disadvantage, social welfare for single parents, unemployed (especially long term unemployed) and dont forget the OAP, who in many cases work for 50 years and are left surviving on meagre pensions. One common misconception is the rich work harder than the poor, and I dont think that is true, the rich simply have more opportunities and the skills to take advantage of them. The less well off shouldnt suffer for this.
All that is well and good. But you cant keep everyone locked down, they must be able to advance themselves, including financially. Entrepreneurs and business's should be encouraged to grow and generate wealth for themselves and the country, as long as they are not harming others. People should be free to make themselves rich, but not by exploiting others, after all it is the working class who do all the hard work and without them the economy would have no basis. Capitalism is needed to drive the economy, and not least to provide the revenue for the government to look after the sick, old and poor.
Corporate Responsibily should be a condition of the capitalism. Exploiting a countries population and resources for profits is wrong, and so the basis for the society should be People before Profits.
To end I don't think communism is any more "misguided" than capitalism, they both are to an extent. A combination of both is needed to obtain a fair and equitable society.
ITW
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Communism won't work because it places the "Group" needs above the individuals needs. That's inherently wrong and a VERY misguided view about how people work.
Not to mention it's unnatural. It supresses the human drive, every human has a spirit in them that makes them strive for bigger and better things, and when properly channelled makes people extremely successful. It's not greedy to want to be the best at everything in every possible way. Humans just naturally want to be more than what they are. Taking away their individulism with communism or socialism is an unnatural thing, and the human spirit soon tires of it and longs for more :)
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Some are good, some are bad. If Communism ran occordingly to the actual theory it would be the greatest thing in the world but unfortunately people are too greedy.
Yeah. And people who consider capatilism a success aren't looking at it from other people's perspective. If you are poor, or your business has just been closed down because Wal-Mart moved in next to you... or if your country has just been invaded by another country who wants to privatize your natural resources; then capatalism isn't so great. I think everyone should have a food and shelter. Capatalism can't gaurantee that. Capatalism forces expensive items to be nessecities that weren't ever nessecities before; because the technology is controlling us... Rather than us controlling the technology.
Love. If you've just been dumped, you have a bad view of love. By your logic, Love is bad. You're married, you're in love, it's the same thing. Capitalism is bad to those who have been burnt by it, but it's the greatest thing in the world to those that have gained success through it. Love's the same way. It comes down to, is it worth the gamble? Humans by nature strive for betterment, so hell yes it's worth the gamble. Life is worth the gamble. You might have a good life, you might not. By your logic we should all kill ourselves right now, right, instead of chanceing the consequences?
Of course that's not what you believe, you only believe it about capitalism, because someone has told you to believe it about capitalism. That belief is in contrast with your natural feelings as a human being.
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^^^^^^
You could make the exact same argument about communism. If you have had a bad experience of it you will naturally think it is bad. If you have had a good experience of it you think it's great. Is it worth a chance? Of course, that everyone can be equal is a great thing.
Like you said about capitalism, it's all about how you were brought up to believe in it. If you were brought up hearing "fucking commies" or "damn capitalists" your going to hold onto some of that view.
I dont think either is more natural than the other. Communism is more idealist for everyone whereas capitalism is more idealist for the lucky few. All depends on what side of the fence your on. Like I said above, a successful society needs elements of both, Wouldnt you agree trauma?
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Like you said about capitalism, it's all about how you were brought up to believe in it. If you were brought up hearing "fucking commies" or "damn capitalists" your going to hold onto some of that view.
I was brought up hearing that capatalism was what the pursuit of happiness was all about. I don't identify with that way of thinking. Sometimes people aren't satisfied with the answers they have been given and they continue looking for more.
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I dont think either is more natural than the other.
You're wrong.
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization." - Mikhail Gorbachev, June 8, 1990
"Capitalism is not an "ism." It is closer to being the opposite of an "ism," because it is simply the freedom of ordinary people to make whatever economic transactions they can mutually agree to." - Dr. Thomas Sowell
"Socialism is an ideology. Capitalism is a natural phenomenon." - Michael Rothschild
"Bad and discredited ideas, it seems, never die. Neither do they fade away. Instead, they keep turning up, like bad pennies or Godzilla in the old Japanese movies." - Murray N. Rothbard
Fuck... How many people did communists kill in the past 100 years? It's ignorant for people to try to defend something that failed so horrbily.
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It's ignorant for people to try to defend something that failed so horrbily.
Talk about horrible. Look at that spelling.
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people should be allowed to live their lives however they wish BUT only as long as they dont impose their will on others :)