West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Shallow on April 17, 2004, 07:56:27 PM
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I haven't been on this section of the forum too often so forgive me if this has been brought up one too many times already. But I have a questionm to ask to all those that abandoned Christianity for Islam (or Judaism):
What was so wrong with with what Jesus said and stood for that you would choose to denounce him?
It's very evident that nothing in the Quran advances the morals of the Gospel. (not to say that Jesus was the first to think the way he did, his purpose was to teach it to the masses)
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In case you don't know, since a lot of people don't, Muslims believe in Jesus. :)
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Nothing is wrong with Jesus (PBUH). He is a Prophet in Islam, and by Islamic definition was a Muslim.
Now, I have read the entire New Testament, when I was 15. Realistically, the concept of Son of God never made sense to me. My feeling was always, why would God have a child? Why, being the wisest, would He throw off the balance of the world? It doesn't make sense to me. Not that I don't respect Christians, they're often well-meaning people. I respect who respects me.
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Okay I know they believe in Jesus as a prophet. What I was trying to enquire was whats so wrong with following Jesus, and what does Muhamed say that that Jesus does not say as good or better?
As for the son of God thing. Who are we to question God? Let's say that God wasn't pleased with the way prophets before Jesus twisted his words and used their connection with God as power to vcontrol the people politically, so God decided that he needed his words to come straight from him. And since God is to powerful for Earth to contain him, he needed a shell, Jesus. But maybe God new in advance that his prophets would abuse their gift and, aas told by Jesus, created his son before he created the universe. Son could be metaphorical. Just a thought.
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If you are an athiest or born Muslim this thread is not for you. No offense its just that my arguments would be pointless.
I am a christian and believe in Jesus. BUT I do not believe that if you don't believe in him you don't acheive eternal life. I believe that many of Jesus's preachings were metaphorical, and that he represented the greater good metaphorically. Thats not to say that the only greater good is him. He said himself that he was here to cure the sinners, not the righteious. This proves that there were good people before him who would be granted eternal life, and that it is possible to be good without him, in the literal sense.
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Or, maybe nothing of this exists. Just a thought.
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You could be right, After all religion is based on faith and faith is not based on fact. I don't think I could ever be an athiest, because if all I believe in is whats right in front of me, and when I die thats it, then whats the point of life. Humans need hope, and I feel bad for those thet have none, not to say that you have no hope, or that you are a bad person. But your thoughts ae better fit for another thread. I just want to know why christians turn to Islam, and I want a better reason than because God doesn't need a son, thats all.
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If that's not a good enough reason then I'm sorry. That's the primary reason I looked for religion other than Christianity. As I posted in another thread, I was given a school project on Islam and became interested. Then an Anglican Minister encouraged me to find God, which he and I discussed and he told me that there was nothing wrong with non-Christian religions. Then I was inspired by people like Malcolm X.
Now, I think that it is wrong to compare Mohammed (PBUH) and Jesus (PBUH). They were sent in 2 different times, to 2 different people. Jesus (PBUH) was sent to help bring the Jews of that time to their former greatness, for they were great rebels. Mohammed (PBUH) was sent to Nomadic Arabs, and therefore they wouldn't understand some random preaching. Therefore, Mohammed (PBUH) had to use techniques of war in order to unite the Arab people, which worked because for many years they were far above European Nations of the time.
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1. John (3:17) says that you "MIGHT be saved."
There is no guarantee of salvation. In Islam there is.
2. The Bible has been interpreted, hence revised, over and over as time went on. In fact, there are many versions of the Bible. In the Qu'ran not 1 word has been changed, and there isn't more than 1 version.
THERE ARE ALSO REFERENCES TO ISLAM/MUHAMMED IN THE BIBLE.
3. In Deuteronomy 33:2, we see Moses peace be upon him predicting that GOD Almighty will execute His Holy Judgement in the city of Paran by 10,000 of Believers:
"And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (From the King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"
We also read about the same prophecy by Prophet Enoch peace be upon him:
"And Enoch [Idris in Arabic] also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"
Now, according to the Islamic history, the city of Mecca (Paran) was liberated by Prophet Muhammad's 10,000-men army.
4. Prophet Isaiah peace be upon him prophesied that two leaders whom he called "Chariot" would come -- one riding a donkey, and another riding a camel:
"And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed: (From the King James Version Bible, Isaiah 21:7)"
Jesus came on the ass(donkey)
Muhammed came on the camel
5. CHAPTER 220 of the "Gospel of Barnabus (Joseph)"
Jesus answered: 'Believe me, Barnabas, that every sin, however small it be, God punishes with great punishment, seeing that God is offended at sin. Wherefore, since my mother and my faithful disciples that were with me loved me a little with earthly love, the righteous God has willed to punish this love with the present grief, in order that it may not be punished in the flames of hell. And though I have been innocent in the world, since men have called me "God," and "Son of God," God, in order that I be not mocked of the demons on the day of judgment, has willed that I be mocked of men in this world by the death of Judas;, making all men to believe that I died upon the cross. And this mocking shall continue until the advent of Muhammad;, the Messenger ;of God, who, when he shall come, shall reveal this deception to those who believe in God's Law. Having thus spoken, Jesus said: 'You are just, O Lord our God, because to you only belongs honour and glory without end.'
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If that's not a good enough reason then I'm sorry. That's the primary reason I looked for religion other than Christianity. As I posted in another thread, I was given a school project on Islam and became interested. Then an Anglican Minister encouraged me to find God, which he and I discussed and he told me that there was nothing wrong with non-Christian religions. Then I was inspired by people like Malcolm X.
Now, I think that it is wrong to compare Mohammed (PBUH) and Jesus (PBUH). They were sent in 2 different times, to 2 different people. Jesus (PBUH) was sent to help bring the Jews of that time to their former greatness, for they were great rebels. Mohammed (PBUH) was sent to Nomadic Arabs, and therefore they wouldn't understand some random preaching. Therefore, Mohammed (PBUH) had to use techniques of war in order to unite the Arab people, which worked because for many years they were far above European Nations of the time.
You didn't really answer "why". Okay you became interseted in Islam but what's wrong with Jesus?
For the record it is very apparent that Jesus did not come just for the Jews. He even told them that when he cured the centurians slave. Now you mention the techniques of war used by Muhamed. This is what kept me from even considering Islam as a choice of religion for me. How can you preach peace and condone war. If he was the most favoured prophet of God why couldn't he use the almighty's assistance to make his points through miracles like the other major ones did, Moses, Jesus. To me Muhamed wasn't too different than Caesar. He saw injustice and wanted to correct it, and used a connection with God to create an illusion of superiorty. He was a significant revolutionary, but I fail to see the perfection in him.
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1. John (3:17) says that you "MIGHT be saved."
There is no guarantee of salvation. In Islam there is.
2. The Bible has been interpreted, hence revised, over and over as time went on. In fact, there are many versions of the Bible. In the Qu'ran not 1 word has been changed, and there isn't more than 1 version.
THERE ARE ALSO REFERENCES TO ISLAM/MUHAMMED IN THE BIBLE.
3. In Deuteronomy 33:2, we see Moses peace be upon him predicting that GOD Almighty will execute His Holy Judgement in the city of Paran by 10,000 of Believers:
"And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (From the King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"
We also read about the same prophecy by Prophet Enoch peace be upon him:
"And Enoch [Idris in Arabic] also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"
Now, according to the Islamic history, the city of Mecca (Paran) was liberated by Prophet Muhammad's 10,000-men army.
4. Prophet Isaiah peace be upon him prophesied that two leaders whom he called "Chariot" would come -- one riding a donkey, and another riding a camel:
"And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed: (From the King James Version Bible, Isaiah 21:7)"
Jesus came on the ass(donkey)
Muhammed came on the camel
5. CHAPTER 220 of the "Gospel of Barnabus (Joseph)"
Jesus answered: 'Believe me, Barnabas, that every sin, however small it be, God punishes with great punishment, seeing that God is offended at sin. Wherefore, since my mother and my faithful disciples that were with me loved me a little with earthly love, the righteous God has willed to punish this love with the present grief, in order that it may not be punished in the flames of hell. And though I have been innocent in the world, since men have called me "God," and "Son of God," God, in order that I be not mocked of the demons on the day of judgment, has willed that I be mocked of men in this world by the death of Judas;, making all men to believe that I died upon the cross. And this mocking shall continue until the advent of Muhammad;, the Messenger ;of God, who, when he shall come, shall reveal this deception to those who believe in God's Law. Having thus spoken, Jesus said: 'You are just, O Lord our God, because to you only belongs honour and glory without end.'
Where have you read the gospel of Barnabas?
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I haven't been on this section of the forum too often so forgive me if this has been brought up one too many times already. But I have a questionm to ask to all those that abandoned Christianity for Islam (or Judaism):
What was so wrong with with what Jesus said and stood for that you would choose to denounce him?
It's very evident that nothing in the Quran advances the morals of the Gospel. (not to say that Jesus was the first to think the way he did, his purpose was to teach it to the masses)
You raised some intriquing questions and I applaud you for debating and discussing in a polite and friendly manner. The Qu'ran teaches us that of the Christians there are many who pray throughout the night and ask for forgiveness from God (Allah). Those that do good deeds and do not fight and persecute against the Muslims, Allah demands we treat them with great respect and genorosity.
I was raised Christian. My mother's family was Catholic and my father's family southern baptist. I could not stand for all the hypocrisy in the Church and never could identify with man being God, so at age 14 I became an atheist. Then at age 18 I went through yet another transformation when I finally came to know about Islam. The primary reason I accepted Islam is because Islam can put your whole life and daily affairs in perfect order; Beggining with Allah being the One and Only, the Supreme Being, and the only deity worthy of worship. Next, the teachings of the Holy Qu'ran and the practice of Islam begin to take hold of you and discipline your mind and body into submission to Allah, through intense praying, fasting, traveling (Hajj), supplicating to Allah, the brotherhood and comrodery amongst Muslims, the knowledge and psychology of the Holy Qu'ran... Soon one's life becomes a temple of worship.
To answer your first question, nothing is wrong with Jesus (peace be unto him). He was a a devinely inspired prophet of God, and we believe in much of the gospels, although some of it has been lost in translation and altered for political reasons.
To answer your second question let me explain how the Qu'ran advanced the morals of the gospel, and previously revealed messages of Allah. Being that Islam was to be the culmination of all messages, Islam was to offer the believers giudance in every sphere and aspect of life. Allah has decreed in the Qu'ran "And verily, on this day I have completed the religion of (submission to the will of God)". So in doing so, the Holy Qu'ran gave the believers giudance in all aspects from how to pray, how to orchestrate a society and government, how to fight against oppression and subjugation, economics, judiciary, dietary, marriage, divorce; a Muslim is never without giudance.
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Now you mention the techniques of war used by Muhamed. This is what kept me from even considering Islam as a choice of religion for me. How can you preach peace and condone war. If he was the most favoured prophet of God why couldn't he use the almighty's assistance to make his points through miracles like the other major ones did, Moses, Jesus. To me Muhamed wasn't too different than Caesar. He saw injustice and wanted to correct it, and used a connection with God to create an illusion of superiorty. He was a significant revolutionary, but I fail to see the perfection in him.
great point....I've been tellin this 2 some of my fellow muslims for years now, but ofcourse they always have an answer 2 everything, they start preaching with the help of what they have read, which doesn't really answer anything....u kno wat I mean?
it's funny how infinite talks about the hypocrisy that goes on christianity (which I do not diagree with 1 bit), but fact is there is just as much or even greater hypocrisy with muslims....
sayin a muslim is never without guidance is a general statement that could be made about any religion, but it's a foolish one nontheless....both religions preach positivity and set standards for our way of living in this world....both provide guidance....but the hypocrisy over shadows it all....
it is great to have faith, if U don't believe that there is a god, then U have issues, U have problems, call me closed-minded all U want....but when faith creates segregation, that is when it becomes a tool to be evil, even if it is deep inside and can't be seen....
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If that's not a good enough reason then I'm sorry. That's the primary reason I looked for religion other than Christianity. As I posted in another thread, I was given a school project on Islam and became interested. Then an Anglican Minister encouraged me to find God, which he and I discussed and he told me that there was nothing wrong with non-Christian religions. Then I was inspired by people like Malcolm X.
Now, I think that it is wrong to compare Mohammed (PBUH) and Jesus (PBUH). They were sent in 2 different times, to 2 different people. Jesus (PBUH) was sent to help bring the Jews of that time to their former greatness, for they were great rebels. Mohammed (PBUH) was sent to Nomadic Arabs, and therefore they wouldn't understand some random preaching. Therefore, Mohammed (PBUH) had to use techniques of war in order to unite the Arab people, which worked because for many years they were far above European Nations of the time.
You didn't really answer "why". Okay you became interseted in Islam but what's wrong with Jesus?
For the record it is very apparent that Jesus did not come just for the Jews. He even told them that when he cured the centurians slave. Now you mention the techniques of war used by Muhamed. This is what kept me from even considering Islam as a choice of religion for me. How can you preach peace and condone war. If he was the most favoured prophet of God why couldn't he use the almighty's assistance to make his points through miracles like the other major ones did, Moses, Jesus. To me Muhamed wasn't too different than Caesar. He saw injustice and wanted to correct it, and used a connection with God to create an illusion of superiorty. He was a significant revolutionary, but I fail to see the perfection in him.
Read this line:
Isaiah (024:023) "Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously."
The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon). And if they see a sign, they turn away, and say: "This is continuous magic." (Qur’an 54:1-3)
A prophecy predicted in the Old Testament was fulfilled by Muhammed and the splitting of the moon was the miracle he performed.
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You didn't really answer "why". Okay you became interseted in Islam but what's wrong with Jesus?
For the record it is very apparent that Jesus did not come just for the Jews. He even told them that when he cured the centurians slave. Now you mention the techniques of war used by Muhamed. This is what kept me from even considering Islam as a choice of religion for me. How can you preach peace and condone war. If he was the most favoured prophet of God why couldn't he use the almighty's assistance to make his points through miracles like the other major ones did, Moses, Jesus. To me Muhamed wasn't too different than Caesar. He saw injustice and wanted to correct it, and used a connection with God to create an illusion of superiorty. He was a significant revolutionary, but I fail to see the perfection in him.
Wouldn't your comments parallel the actions of Jesus in the lines here:
(From the different Gospels)
Mark:011:015 "And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves"
Luke: 019:045 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought
Luke: 019:027 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Matthew: 021:012 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
John: 002:013 And the Jews' Passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
002:014 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
002:015 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
002:019 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Bush might even consider Jesus a terrorist. ;D
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comparing throwing out merchants from a temple, is hardly the same as mass murder during war. Jesus had a great following and I'm sure he could have utilized them as an army, also his power that he showed during the gospel far surpassed anything shown from man before and after (even Muhamed). I'm talking about the miracles he performed.
The problem I have with Muhamed's fight against oppression is that I don't it is right to hurt anyone because they hurt you, and cetainly not kill. And besides if when we die we are taken to a better place then wouldn't the ultimate reward on earth be death, why commit evil deeds to keep yourself from acheiving what is better.
Personally I don't care much for the Church and feel it goes against the one it follows in so many ways. I just can't find anything wrong with what Jesus said or did. I can't say the same for Muhamed.
Once again, I'm not condemning anyone to hell or anything like that. But I do think its foolish to follow any organized religion if you are at peace with yourself. Some people lack self control and need discipline, that's fine. But all the answers are not in any book. You have to dig deep inside and feel whats right and wrong. The heart never lies, atleast it never has for me. Not to say I've never done anything wrong, but I know when I've done wrong. All the technicalities of how to do things like eat, pray, conduct economics and politics change with the times. I feel Jesus knew this and that is why he rarely touched on these issues, particularly the outer worldy ones. When he was asked for the answers of the universe he answered that humans cannot even figure out what's right in front of them, so how can they understand what they cannot see.
So every time someone says that the bible or the quran explains science, I say their full of shit, because science is full of shit. Sure it leads to easier living but science is always proven wrong by more advanced science. For thousands of years scietists believed that if you drop two objects the heavier one will fall faster, until someone tried it and realized thats not the case. So I will not be surprised one bit that science's outlook on outer space completely changes in a hundred or so years.
Sorry to get off topic. As for the God on earth thing with Jesus. The prophecy did say Immanuel ( God with us) would come. And besides there are far more absurd things in the scriptures than that.
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You could be right, After all religion is based on faith and faith is not based on fact. I don't think I could ever be an athiest, because if all I believe in is whats right in front of me, and when I die thats it, then whats the point of life. Humans need hope, and I feel bad for those thet have none, not to say that you have no hope, or that you are a bad person. But your thoughts ae better fit for another thread. I just want to know why christians turn to Islam, and I want a better reason than because God doesn't need a son, thats all.
-the point of life is to reproduce and keep your race alive. that's the reason why stuff like love and friendship exists. it's all in the brain. your brain gives you the impulse for certain persons we call "love". that's just because if parents would not love their children, they would die. if ppl wouldnt love a person, feel attracted to persons, they wouldnt fuck. moreover that is the reason why homosexuality is a fuckin disease. they cant reproduce.
aint no further point in life. thinkin you go to heaven or somethin is childish in my opinion. dont get how any adult person get to really believin this. I guess it's like you said, ppl need hope. so the losers and the ppl who have a fucked up life believe in god .. for hope. that's also why the less civilized areas have stronger believers. so I guess ima semi-quote Nietzsche: God is some imaginary thing for losers who cant get along in life.
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I admitted that I don't know the answers of the universe, and also that no one really does. Men older and wiser than you have questioned the meaning of life for centuries and have found no answer. And I think its stupid of you to come up with a definate answer and present it as a fact. Just as stupid as Nietzsche was, (and Immortal Technique is).
And how you say that no adult should dumb enough to believe in God. First off stupider things have happened. Second I ask you a question, two actually. Let's say you lived in the time of Jesus and you're mother was brutally raped and killed, and you mention this to him, and with the flick of a wrist he ressurects her and then tells you it is by the will of God you have you're mother back. Would you still doubt his existence? SecondIf the point of life is to reproduce and keep the race alive, then what would it matter if were dead and gone anyway. The first question was hypothetical since you don't belive in God.
Also were you raised athiest or did you choose it? And if so Why?
just curious.
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I dont doubt Jesus' existence. He was a special guy and I respect him. But that's about it.
Further I think yall believers got the meaning of Jesus as God's Son wrong. It is said we are all god's sons. According to that, of fuckin course Jesus was God's Son! Got it? He was human like you and me. A charismatic guy who had mad struggles in life. But that's about it.
And about the mother-thingy-dont take the bible literally. It's not even supposed to be taken literally.
Second: It would not matter. It's just another race died out. Could be worse, our race wipes out other races all the time. (Remark for dickheads: talking about race, I refer to the human race.) We are just the currently predominant race of our time. If there was a God, what's the difference between a Dinosaur and a Human? WHAT? It's gotta be all the same to God, our race didnt start wit Adam and Eva and an apple, now aint that a bitch.
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I still haven't heard to many replies to the original question I asked, or aren't there as many Christians turned Muslims on this forum as I thought.
And harbinger you didn't really answer the first or third questions I asked you.
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I havent said it's dumb to believe in God, that would be ignorant. It's dumb to believe in the most childish ways (like heaven and hell, etc) tho in my opinion.
Plus Im not raised as an atheist, neither am I raised as a christian. Literally we are christians, my brother is even a believer, but Im an atheist since a few years. And im not like I dont care or Im cooler that way, I have my reasons, some of them I already stated here.
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Second: It would not matter. It's just another race died out. Could be worse, our race wipes out other races all the time. (Remark for dickheads: talking about race, I refer to the human race.) We are just the currently predominant race of our time. If there was a God, what's the difference between a Dinosaur and a Human? WHAT? It's gotta be all the same to God, our race didnt start wit Adam and Eva and an apple, now aint that a bitch.
Plus homie, if Im supposed to answer your questions, I take it for granted you do the same.
I condone this mis-behaviour of you this time, since you couldve taken my question as a rhetorical question, which it wasnt.
This also goes out to any believer here.. no matter if Christ, Muslim, Jew or whatever.
If there was a God, what's the difference between a Dinosaur and a Human? WHAT? It's gotta be all the same to God, our race didnt start wit Adam and Eva and an apple, now aint that a bitch. What makes you dare to think the Human race is so fuckin special? I dont get it. And to get back to the stone age..
since fuckin when is a person considered human and not an animal anymore? one hair less and it's considered a homo sapiens sapiens with a soul god cares about who gets to heaven and not a fuckin stone-age sucker pre-neandertaler semi-ape anymore, or what? now fuck with that.
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I still haven't heard to many replies to the original question I asked, or aren't there as many Christians turned Muslims on this forum as I thought.
You never responded to my reply to your origional question: Here it is again in short:
I was raised Christian. My mother's family was Catholic and my father's family southern baptist. I could not stand for all the hypocrisy in the Church and never could identify with man being God, so at age 14 I became an atheist. Then at age 18 I went through yet another transformation when I finally came to know about Islam. The primary reason I accepted Islam is because Islam can put your whole life and daily affairs in perfect order; Beggining with Allah being the One and Only, the Supreme Being, and the only deity worthy of worship. Next, the teachings of the Holy Qu'ran and the practice of Islam begin to take hold of you and discipline your mind and body into submission to Allah, through intense praying, fasting, traveling (Hajj), supplicating to Allah, the brotherhood and comrodery amongst Muslims, the knowledge and psychology of the Holy Qu'ran... Soon one's life becomes a temple of worship.
To answer your first question, nothing is wrong with Jesus (peace be unto him). He was a a devinely inspired prophet of God, and we believe in much of the gospels, although some of it has been lost in translation and altered for political reasons.
To answer your second question let me explain how the Qu'ran advanced the morals of the gospel, and previously revealed messages of Allah. Being that Muhammad (pbuh) was the last prophet and the culmination of all messages, the Qu'ran was to offer the believers giudance in every sphere and aspect of life. Allah has decreed in the Qu'ran "And verily, on this day I have completed the religion of (submission to the will of God)". So in doing so, the Holy Qu'ran gave the believers giudance in all aspects from how to pray, how to orchestrate a society and government, how to fight against oppression and subjugation, economics, judiciary, dietary, marriage, divorce; a Muslim is never without giudance.
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^ you missed out the phase where you were writing the gospel of 2pac and hailing him as the messiah... :D
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Second: It would not matter. It's just another race died out. Could be worse, our race wipes out other races all the time. (Remark for dickheads: talking about race, I refer to the human race.) We are just the currently predominant race of our time. If there was a God, what's the difference between a Dinosaur and a Human? WHAT? It's gotta be all the same to God, our race didnt start wit Adam and Eva and an apple, now aint that a bitch.
Plus homie, if Im supposed to answer your questions, I take it for granted you do the same.
I condone this mis-behaviour of you this time, since you couldve taken my question as a rhetorical question, which it wasnt.
This also goes out to any believer here.. no matter if Christ, Muslim, Jew or whatever.
If there was a God, what's the difference between a Dinosaur and a Human? WHAT? It's gotta be all the same to God, our race didnt start wit Adam and Eva and an apple, now aint that a bitch. What makes you dare to think the Human race is so fuckin special? I dont get it. And to get back to the stone age..
since fuckin when is a person considered human and not an animal anymore? one hair less and it's considered a homo sapiens sapiens with a soul god cares about who gets to heaven and not a fuckin stone-age sucker pre-neandertaler semi-ape anymore, or what? now fuck with that.
When did I ever say that we are more important than any other race? All I said was I did not know the answers to the universe. And don't compare that old testament mythological bull shit with the gospel. Jesus was very simple and based his entire philosophies on how we "should" treat each other. He very rarely escaped that realm, and told his followers not to woory about the unknown because thay could not grasp it. Moses made a lot of rules, probably made a lot of them up himself, to appease the people. Jesus did no such thing, all he said was be a good person and you will be granted eternal life. I don't know about you but I don't particularly want to die.
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I still haven't heard to many replies to the original question I asked, or aren't there as many Christians turned Muslims on this forum as I thought.
You never responded to my reply to your origional question: Here it is again in short:
I was raised Christian. My mother's family was Catholic and my father's family southern baptist. I could not stand for all the hypocrisy in the Church and never could identify with man being God, so at age 14 I became an atheist. Then at age 18 I went through yet another transformation when I finally came to know about Islam. The primary reason I accepted Islam is because Islam can put your whole life and daily affairs in perfect order; Beggining with Allah being the One and Only, the Supreme Being, and the only deity worthy of worship. Next, the teachings of the Holy Qu'ran and the practice of Islam begin to take hold of you and discipline your mind and body into submission to Allah, through intense praying, fasting, traveling (Hajj), supplicating to Allah, the brotherhood and comrodery amongst Muslims, the knowledge and psychology of the Holy Qu'ran... Soon one's life becomes a temple of worship.
To answer your first question, nothing is wrong with Jesus (peace be unto him). He was a a devinely inspired prophet of God, and we believe in much of the gospels, although some of it has been lost in translation and altered for political reasons.
To answer your second question let me explain how the Qu'ran advanced the morals of the gospel, and previously revealed messages of Allah. Being that Muhammad (pbuh) was the last prophet and the culmination of all messages, the Qu'ran was to offer the believers giudance in every sphere and aspect of life. Allah has decreed in the Qu'ran "And verily, on this day I have completed the religion of (submission to the will of God)". So in doing so, the Holy Qu'ran gave the believers giudance in all aspects from how to pray, how to orchestrate a society and government, how to fight against oppression and subjugation, economics, judiciary, dietary, marriage, divorce; a Muslim is never without giudance.
Actually my 7th post was a pesponse to your reply. But let me get more thorough. First off I'm beginning to think you think I think it was wrong of you to join Islam. Allow me to clarify, I don't think its wrong, not a bit, whatever makes you a better person is great with me. But I do think its feels wrong for me, that's all. I also don't think its evil to be gay, but I know that it feels wrong if a homosexual were to make advances on me. Just because I don't do something a certain way does not mean I don't think it should be done that way at all.
You mention how Muhamed advanced the morals of Christ. I beg to differ, I think he brought them down a few pegs. There is no way any one could ever argue that Muhamed was more peacful than Jesus or even as peaceful. He justified murder and slavery so long as it is not committed against fellow Muslim brothers. That's bull shit. And all the customs and shit that came out of the Quran like how to pray and eat are just sigs of the times. Correct me if I'm wrong but someone told me that the pig cannot be eaten because of its greed and sloppiness. If thats the case then I'd have to disagree, because pigs are actually one of the cleanest animals.
But anyway. I'm going to tell you what I think Muhammed was. I think he was a very well read intelligent man who was sick and tired of the position he and his people were in, and wanted revolution, justice. So he decided to create an army to fight for freedom. But it is very difficult to motivate the oppressed. So what did he do? What a lot of people do in this situation , make the people think the mission is divine.
Now I'm sorry if I've offended any Muslims, and keep in mind that this is only an opinion that cannot be proven, or is intended to be proven. Nor is it intended to be persuasive. But keep in mind the previous massive revolution in the middle east was led by Moses. (If there were any between 1500 BC- 600 AD, i'm sorry i don't mention them) And Moses was chosen by God, s as the story goes God granted Moses unimaginable powers to revolt against oppressors, hell he split an entire ocean for him (Harbinger I realize you probably don't think this happened, but Muslims do, so let it be). Now if Muhammed was chosen ahead of all the other prophets and is seen as the truest one then why did he and his people have to fight all alone in this fight? Why didn't God win it for them? Imaen even if one believes that all the stories of the prophets and their miracles are propaganda made to trick people, then why aren't here even any stories of Muhammed utilizing God's powers to fend off oppressors?
And don't tell me something stupid like God gave them strength in battle and that is why they, as underdogs, overthrew the larger oppressor. Because no one claimed divine intervention when 300 Spartans defeated a Persian army that consisted of thousands.
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But anyway. I'm going to tell you what I think Muhammed was. I think he was a very well read intelligent man who was sick and tired of the position he and his people were in, and wanted revolution, justice. So he decided to create an army to fight for freedom. But it is very difficult to motivate the oppressed. So what did he do? What a lot of people do in this situation , make the people think the mission is divine.
Wrong, Mohammed (PBUH) was illerate and had no education, religious nor otherwise besides speaking to a Christian Monk once when he was 5 or so, who could tell something was special about the child.
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Its not hard to lie about how much education you. Saying that he was illiterate just makes "seem" more likely that it was God all along.
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Its not hard to lie about how much education you have. Saying that he was illiterate just makes "seem" more likely that it was God all along.
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1. John (3:17) says that you "MIGHT be saved."
There is no guarantee of salvation. In Islam there is.
2. The Bible has been interpreted, hence revised, over and over as time went on. In fact, there are many versions of the Bible. In the Qu'ran not 1 word has been changed, and there isn't more than 1 version.
THERE ARE ALSO REFERENCES TO ISLAM/MUHAMMED IN THE BIBLE.
3. In Deuteronomy 33:2, we see Moses peace be upon him predicting that GOD Almighty will execute His Holy Judgement in the city of Paran by 10,000 of Believers:
"And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (From the King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"
We also read about the same prophecy by Prophet Enoch peace be upon him:
"And Enoch [Idris in Arabic] also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"
Now, according to the Islamic history, the city of Mecca (Paran) was liberated by Prophet Muhammad's 10,000-men army.
4. Prophet Isaiah peace be upon him prophesied that two leaders whom he called "Chariot" would come -- one riding a donkey, and another riding a camel:
"And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed: (From the King James Version Bible, Isaiah 21:7)"
Jesus came on the ass(donkey)
Muhammed came on the camel
5. CHAPTER 220 of the "Gospel of Barnabus (Joseph)"
Jesus answered: 'Believe me, Barnabas, that every sin, however small it be, God punishes with great punishment, seeing that God is offended at sin. Wherefore, since my mother and my faithful disciples that were with me loved me a little with earthly love, the righteous God has willed to punish this love with the present grief, in order that it may not be punished in the flames of hell. And though I have been innocent in the world, since men have called me "God," and "Son of God," God, in order that I be not mocked of the demons on the day of judgment, has willed that I be mocked of men in this world by the death of Judas;, making all men to believe that I died upon the cross. And this mocking shall continue until the advent of Muhammad;, the Messenger ;of God, who, when he shall come, shall reveal this deception to those who believe in God's Law. Having thus spoken, Jesus said: 'You are just, O Lord our God, because to you only belongs honour and glory without end.'
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muhammad doesnt exist they were all profits the devil is whats fuckin with those muslims they all stupid
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muhammad doesnt exist they were all profits the devil is whats fuckin with those muslims they all stupid
Muhammad lived just 1400 years ago. It was not difficult in that time to record information and facts about history, and there is undeniable proof that Muhammad (salla alayhi wa salaam) lived, no Christian, Jewish, or atheist historian can deny that.
You said "they were all prophets". Exactly. Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad, peace be upon all of them, they were all prophets of God.
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1. John (3:17) says that you "MIGHT be saved."
There is no guarantee of salvation. In Islam there is.
2. The Bible has been interpreted, hence revised, over and over as time went on. In fact, there are many versions of the Bible. In the Qu'ran not 1 word has been changed, and there isn't more than 1 version.
THERE ARE ALSO REFERENCES TO ISLAM/MUHAMMED IN THE BIBLE.
3. In Deuteronomy 33:2, we see Moses peace be upon him predicting that GOD Almighty will execute His Holy Judgement in the city of Paran by 10,000 of Believers:
"And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (From the King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"
We also read about the same prophecy by Prophet Enoch peace be upon him:
"And Enoch [Idris in Arabic] also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"
Now, according to the Islamic history, the city of Mecca (Paran) was liberated by Prophet Muhammad's 10,000-men army.
4. Prophet Isaiah peace be upon him prophesied that two leaders whom he called "Chariot" would come -- one riding a donkey, and another riding a camel:
"And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with much heed: (From the King James Version Bible, Isaiah 21:7)"
Jesus came on the ass(donkey)
Muhammed came on the camel
5. CHAPTER 220 of the "Gospel of Barnabus (Joseph)"
Jesus answered: 'Believe me, Barnabas, that every sin, however small it be, God punishes with great punishment, seeing that God is offended at sin. Wherefore, since my mother and my faithful disciples that were with me loved me a little with earthly love, the righteous God has willed to punish this love with the present grief, in order that it may not be punished in the flames of hell. And though I have been innocent in the world, since men have called me "God," and "Son of God," God, in order that I be not mocked of the demons on the day of judgment, has willed that I be mocked of men in this world by the death of Judas;, making all men to believe that I died upon the cross. And this mocking shall continue until the advent of Muhammad;, the Messenger ;of God, who, when he shall come, shall reveal this deception to those who believe in God's Law. Having thus spoken, Jesus said: 'You are just, O Lord our God, because to you only belongs honour and glory without end.'
I'm not so sure about all that prophecy stuff, but there were so many references to what the messaiah would be and how he would come, and they all point to Jesus. This is the reason why jewish turned christians convert, it's why Bob Dylan did, not to say that a lot of Jewish people do convert to christianity, but the ones that do use the resemblences of the prediction of the saviour and Jesus as a key piece in their conversion. Now I ask you, and the question is not a rhetorical one, what predictions of Muhammed are in the scriptures.
I still have not received too many reasons why Christians converted to Islam. I'm not judging I'm just curious. Even if the ones that already posted their reasons know people that converted, those persons stories would be appreciated.
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Sorry I forgot the ? in the question I asked you. Also where did you read the Gospel of Barnabus?
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One thing I should point out is that I wasn't really a Christian ever. My family has never attended Church or discussed religion. We've never prayed together, nor even owned a Bible. So undoubtebly that should help make sense of things.
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One more thing. John 3:17 states "might be saved" with regards to the world not the person that believes. And once again I see this whole section of John 3 as metaphorical, that the only begotten son of God does not only refer to Jesus but to good in general, and Jesus is the human embodiment of good, that's not to say that one cannot believe in good if they do not believe in Jesus. Just my opinion.
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One thing I should point out is that I wasn't really a Christian ever. My family has never attended Church or discussed religion. We've never prayed together, nor even owned a Bible. So undoubtebly that should help make sense of things.
Thank You for answering, it doesn't really help my inquiry, but your honesty is more than appreciated.