West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: 7even on August 03, 2004, 08:57:54 AM
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all you believers, tell me. I dont get it.
I of course know why religion and stuff exists and why some ppl believe in it, but I want to hear your version.
I opened this topic in order to stop the offtopic-ness in several other topics in which we went off-topic starting to debate this ^topic.
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This is my first and only reply to this thread because I don't like t discuss about religion.
I'm an athiest. I don't see how anyone can even believe in God (or Allah or whatever there is to believe in LOL). Well, if you get raised with religion I kind of understand... but seriously, if you just think soberly and down to earth... how the fuck can you believe in (a) God? Really, I don't get it. When I was in America many Mormons tried to convert me (I believe that's part of their religion :P), but nobody will ever be able to get me to believe.
I'm not trying to offend anyone, it are just my 5 cents.
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I'm not Religious, but I'm not Atheist. To me, being Atheist is the same as being Religious. Both spend time thinking and acting about god(s); whether positively or negatively. It's all the same to me. I choose not to even think about it. I don't feel I need that in my life. But at the same time, it's easy for me to see why people feel the way they do.
I don't think Religious people are weak minded. They are religious because they like it. It makes them feel good to believe in what they do. If it didn't, they wouldn't do it. Simple as that. That's how I see it anyway.
You can't prove that God exsists, just like you can't prove he doesn't. Nobody knows how everything got here. But does it really matter?
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For many years in my life, I questioned wither God existed or not. The questioned wrestled in my head, because one I am raised Catholic so according to that the question should never be brought up, and two there is no way a reasonable person can prove God exist. I tried reading the Bible, but all I got was a huge confusing story about Jews and kings and stuff like that, and a God that we can't prove existed. Over the course of my life, many things have happened that can't be explained. My mother was sick from many years of drug use, and was getting worst. The doctors could do nothing. Like any person that was desprate, I prayed like I never prayed before. When all my prayers where out, and I was ready to give up, my mom was better. Since then I have prayed over many things, things that there is no way it can be done, and God has answered my prayers. In the Bible, it says seek and you shall find, as Jesus said that himself. It is historical fact Jesus was a real person. Now if he was truly who he said he was, or a old school hippy with some identity problems is up for your debate. But when you feel God's presents, and he is there for you, it is hard to not believe in him. A interesting fact, if you go to third world nations, or poor communities, the people who have every right in the world to hate God, or Allah, of whoever, they are the most religious people. Those that have been blessed by a religious person judgement, they are the least religious. Food for thought.
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Word
I believ in him too
Im not really being raised catholic, But I know he exsist, He helps me when I pray
I just feel it in my hart, yall know im sayin
I dont care if u or anyone else believs in god, I can be down wit ya.
But dont disrespect, then I cant be down wit ya
pz
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there is no god
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God exists alright. I used to be an athiest. I'd say shit like "Fuck God". Then after I graduated from the 6th grade, my life really started to suck. It took me a while, but after i put two and two together, I realized God was doing these things to me to punish me for badmouthing him. I don't really beleive in religion. How the fuck are we supposed to know what God wants? Only thing religion does is divide us.
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religion can exist without god ;)
look at it like this... even a christian who doesn't believe in "god" can still believe in the message taught
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We will all find out in the end.
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The reason why the worst countries to live in are generally the most religious is because religion gives hopes and makes promises of things getting better in the future.
Sure, weak-mindedness is neither a requirement nor a characteristic of religious people as a whole. But in general, such people are more likely to be(come) religious as they have more need for an external hope and drive then stronger-willed people. I feel it's the hope provided that makes people religious. You'll have more succes trying to convert an addict trying his very hardest to become clean again then converting someone who's unreligious and very happy in life.
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My only comment will be that one of the most ironic things I've ever noticed about religion, is that those who don't believe in it, or God, usually have a pretty negative or condescending view of those who do; all the while thinking that the religious one is the overzealous bigot.
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I feel it's the hope provided that makes people rt trying his very hardest to become clean again then converting someone who's unreligious and very happy in life.
A greater man than you once said it more eloquently:
(Matthew 19:23-25.)
23 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
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Mdogg, Z, Trauma..
.. to me, the whole reason for the fact that happy ppl most frequently give a fuck about praying and ppl with a fucked up life or many problems most frequently pray every day, is simple.
you know the saying "Opium for the People" -- religion is like a drug for the poor. When you have nothing in life, you pray to god cause an imaginary figure is all you can rely on in life, sad as it may sound. That's the only thing you can catch hope from. When your mother is ill and no doctor can do shit, all you can do is talk to an imaginary figure. And so on. Works for everything.
and on the other hand, when you have everything you want in a happy life, and dont want to change anything that you couldnt easily do by yourself, why the hell would you talk to an imaginary figure? you dont even need hope or something. there's simply no need. so you dont give a crap about praying, dont go to church, dont live religious, dont believe in god. why the hell should you? you dont need "Him". you can deal with the fact that he does not exist, cause you dont need Him.
of course the persons who do need God wont accept the fact that he doesnt really exist that easy. that's what it's all about.
p.s.: dont get me wrong Im not saying that Atheists are always happy and strong believers always arent. nono.
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Mdogg, Z, Trauma..
.. to me, the whole reason for the fact that happy ppl most frequently give a fuck about praying and ppl with a fucked up life or many problems most frequently pray every day, is simple.
you know the saying "Opium for the People" -- religion is like a drug for the poor. When you have nothing in life, you pray to god cause an imaginary figure is all you can rely on in life, sad as it may sound.
what about people that are well to do that believe in god. what about people that are not poor, not well to do but still believe. Man your whole idea is fucked upl.
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Poor people arent the only group of people that believe in God.
Gods sole purpose isnt a crutch for people who have horrible lives.
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All denominations and religions aside, I believe in a divine creator based on common logic.
Someone/something had to create this world, this universe we live in. You look around in today's society, buildings have to be built, they do not just develop over hundreds of millions of years. Factories to not run on their own, people have to keep it running and maintain it. Cars and airplanes do not just come together over long periods of time, to believe that would be simply illogical.
So with that, I just cannot believe that this world was developed over hundreds of millions of years by shear luck. Even if the world came together by chance, why does it run like a well oiled machine? I think it takes more faith to believe that than all of the religions combined.
I don't know how anyone can go outside, look around at his environment, and believe that it all came together by chance.
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All denominations and religions aside, I believe in a divine creator based on common logic.
Someone/something had to create this world, this universe we live in. You look around in today's society, buildings have to be built, they do not just develop over hundreds of millions of years. Factories to not run on their own, people have to keep it running and maintain it. Cars and airplanes do not just come together over long periods of time, to believe that would be simply illogical.
So with that, I just cannot believe that this world was developed over hundreds of millions of years by shear luck. Even if the world came together by chance, why does it run like a well oiled machine? I think it takes more faith to believe that than all of the religions combined.
I don't know how anyone can go outside, look around at his environment, and believe that it all came together by chance.
When I was in doubt, that argument was the only reason I even gave God a second thought.
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I don't know how anyone can go outside, look around at his environment, and believe that it all came together by chance.
Yeah, I think of that pretty much daily. I'm a hippie, though.
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yeah like sikotik said, even if the world came together by chance how does and DID it get so complex and work so well.
also on another tip, i've noticed
many people who really believe in and follow god really live happier lives than those who don't
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All denominations and religions aside, I believe in a divine creator based on common logic.
Someone/something had to create this world, this universe we live in. You look around in today's society, buildings have to be built, they do not just develop over hundreds of millions of years. Factories to not run on their own, people have to keep it running and maintain it. Cars and airplanes do not just come together over long periods of time, to believe that would be simply illogical.
So with that, I just cannot believe that this world was developed over hundreds of millions of years by shear luck. Even if the world came together by chance, why does it run like a well oiled machine? I think it takes more faith to believe that than all of the religions combined.
I don't know how anyone can go outside, look around at his environment, and believe that it all came together by chance.
Mdogg, Z, Trauma..
.. to me, the whole reason for the fact that happy ppl most frequently give a fuck about praying and ppl with a fucked up life or many problems most frequently pray every day, is simple.
you know the saying "Opium for the People" -- religion is like a drug for the poor. When you have nothing in life, you pray to god cause an imaginary figure is all you can rely on in life, sad as it may sound.
what about people that are well to do that believe in god. what about people that are not poor, not well to do but still believe. Man your whole idea is fucked upl.
yeah like sikotik said, even if the world came together by chance how does and DID it get so complex and work so well.
also on another tip, i've noticed
many people who really believe in and follow god really live happier lives than those who don't
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The main argument of our believers is that they can not understand how everything could have come to be by chance. The observant reader will notice that this argument is one based on negative grounds. It basically says that because they are not able to comprehend it, it can't have been the case. Their argument is thus based on the limitations of their imagination.
This is not to say that is stupid or bad..I find it incredible too. But I find the idea of an allmighty power creating, yes making, every single thing by itself while it being immortal and without origin itself much more unbelievable then life being the result of a extraordinary chemical reaction. Where would this allmighty power itself have come from? I see people writing ' How could life itself have been without an external origin?' The same works for God. And in that case we aren't dealing with anything simple and undeveloped as the first living cell would of course have been but with something that is supposed to be the greatest thing ever to have existed. Completely improbable.
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also on another tip, i've noticed
many people who really believe in and follow god really live happier lives than those who don't
Another reason why the phrase 'Religion is opium for the people' is so on point.
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im an atheist. i see no need to have God (or a similar holy figure) in my life. I guide my own ethics and morals with no guide from a book and I have no need to thinks humans as more then just a biological creature. i find life as amazing as it is, no need to add some sort of holy level to it.
But I understand why people do follow religions and believe in God. They need to be comforted by something, they need an uncorrupted hero to admire and look for guidance from since that doesn't exist within humanity. I havent been through that much trauma through my life but some people have had it fucked. they need to feel there is a superior being there for them. it keeps people going so I respect it. I don't think its stupidity or being naive - just satsifying certain needs.
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good god why have I to explain everything >:(
my response, that isnt "fucked up" at all, was referring to this:
A interesting fact, if you go to third world nations, or poor communities, the people who have every right in the world to hate God, or Allah, of whoever, they are the most religious people. Those that have been blessed by a religious person judgement, they are the least religious. Food for thought.
A greater man than you once said it more eloquently:
(Matthew 19:23-25.)
23 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
The reason why the worst countries to live in are generally the most religious is because religion gives hopes and makes promises of things getting better in the future.
I also said p.s.: dont get me wrong Im not saying that Atheists are always happy and strong believers always arent. nono.
'nuff bout this...
The main argument of our believers is that they can not understand how everything could have come to be by chance. The observant reader will notice that this argument is one based on negative grounds. It basically says that because they are not able to comprehend it, it can't have been the case. Their argument is thus based on the limitations of their imagination.
Damn right. Ppl cant understand something, so they create something bigger. Same thing with UFOs :D, ppl dont know what it is, so it must be something greater.
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I'm not Religious, but I'm not Atheist. To me, being Atheist is the same as being Religious. Both spend time thinking and acting about god(s); whether positively or negatively. It's all the same to me. I choose not to even think about it. I don't feel I need that in my life. But at the same time, it's easy for me to see why people feel the way they do.
I don't think Religious people are weak minded. They are religious because they like it. It makes them feel good to believe in what they do. If it didn't, they wouldn't do it. Simple as that. That's how I see it anyway.
You can't prove that God exsists, just like you can't prove he doesn't. Nobody knows how everything got here. But does it really matter?
those are pretty much my views on the subject...
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I do not believe in God. I believe in the scientific theory of how the world started...why?...because it makes sense to me. Alot of people's arguments about God are "someone/something must have created to world and universe." Well...says who? How do people know God created the universe? How do people know he didn't?
The answer is that noone knows. No athiest, christian, jew, muslim, or scientist knows exactly how the universe was created. Religous people say God...scientists say the Big Bang or some other theory. But honestly people, and hear me when I say this: does it really matter? Honestly...its not like "I wondered how the universe started" is a thought on our minds at all times. I believe the universe came to be from the big bang, but other than that, I really don't care.
Listen people...at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how the world or universe was created, or why it was created. The world is here...and so is the universe. I say stop pondering/wondering/questioning how everything came to be...and just be glad everything is where its at now. I know I am a human being that will die someday, so these thoughts/questions really don't bother me. I live my life the way I do, and others live theirs the way that they do. What happens to me when I die doesn't keep me up at night either. I don't know what will happen...just as noone knows what will happen.
Once again, I say stop concerning yourselves with how everything began, and just concern yourselves with whats going on now.
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religion does not promise a better life. It says if you live a good life an follow your goin to heaven. But it dont say that if you follow the religion your life will be better on earth.
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My only comment will be that one of the most ironic things I've ever noticed about religion, is that those who don't believe in it, or God, usually have a pretty negative or condescending view of those who do; all the while thinking that the religious one is the overzealous bigot.
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Once again, I say stop concerning yourselves with how everything began, and just concern yourselves with whats going on now.
It would make things easier, but that's what human beings do best, investigate because we're curious.
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My only comment will be that one of the most ironic things I've ever noticed about religion, is that those who don't believe in it, or God, usually have a pretty negative or condescending view of those who do; all the while thinking that the religious one is the overzealous bigot.
why did you quote yourself and not reply ???
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because I think it was well written, and applies to the comments written after I wrote it. Peace~
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religion does not promise a better life. It says if you live a good life an follow your goin to heaven. But it dont say that if you follow the religion your life will be better on earth.
mine does and so does a lot of others
my mom always quote this bible quote that says "he who delights himself in the lord will be blessed with the desires of your heart" or something like that
also, to the darweenies, i don't just believe in god just because of the begining of the earth theory i (we) have, there's a lot of things that's happened in my life where you go hey that's got to be god. In my opinion god is like love...if you havn't felt it , it's no wonder you won't believe in it.
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all you believers, tell me. I dont get it.
I of course know why religion and stuff exists and why some ppl believe in it, but I want to hear your version.
I opened this topic in order to stop the offtopic-ness in several other topics in which we went off-topic starting to debate this ^topic.
From what I've read of you, you sound like an atheist, you don't want any b.s., you just want what's real.
I used to be an atheist. My family is all Christian, but it all sounded fake and made up, and unrealistic, so at age 12 I became an atheist. Then, 6 years later at age 18, I converted to Islam. Why the change? Let me explain how it happened.
My girlfriend moved away when I was 14 years old. She was the only girl I'd ever loved. She was my whole life. I was heartbroken, sad, and depressed. I still remember the day after she left, when an overwhelming pain took over my chest and stomach, I thought it was temporary but it never went away. I had to struggle to get over the pain of her being gone, so I began to search long and hard for knoweldge on self-improvement and discipline. After 4 years of unsuccesful experimenting and trial and error, I finally came across The Holy Qu'ran. I had no plans of being a Muslim, or anything of the sort. I just went and quickly scribbled down a verse of the Qu'ran to see if it would help keep me focused at work, give me something else to think about besides my boring, monotonous work. The verse went like this...
"How can ye reject
The faith in Allah?--Seeing that ye were without life,
And he gave you life;
Then will He cause you to die,
And will again bring you to life;
And again to Him will ye return."
Next thing I knew, that same night, I decided to submit to the will of the Creator (Allah) and become Muslim.
I was the most undisciplined and disbelieving person you would have ever met. Yet, as the months began to pass by, and as my five daily prayers began to sink deep into my consciousness, and as the fasting, the reading, the worshipping, the giving, the sacrificing, the practice of Islam began to take hold in my life, I found myself irrevocably changed and liberated from whatever demons had been suppressing my inner spirit for so many years. Your really biulding yourself with Islam. Every year you advance much further ahead. You advance in stages and achieve things far beyond your imagination. You treat yourself and other people differently, and your whole daily life is put into perfect order.
Now, why was I able to accept the Qu'ran, back when I was an atheist? Read it and you will quickly find out. It is not some religion people believe in blindly. Faith in Islam, comes through knowledge and conviction. The Qu'ran is a very critical and questioning book itself. The Noble Qu'ran doesn't teach belief in any men as being supernatural, it only teaches us how to worship and pray to the Creator (Allah), and live in accordance to his will.
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To me, being Atheist is the same as being Religious. Both spend time thinking and acting about god(s); whether positively or negatively. It's all the same to me.
Good point. There was one guy who requested to be burried in Harley Davidson logo's! That's how his body is going to lay for eternity! People set up money, women, and other hobbies, as God's. They live for them, and that is their religion. Your "religion" is your "way of life". Money could be someone's religion. If your life revolves around money, if you love money, if you live for money, if you would do anything to aquire an excess amount of it, then "money" is your "religion".
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Doesnt Islam beileve in Jesus?
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Hi Ibrahim I Love Allah And Myself and Adon, I have a comment:
An athiest is someone who doesn't believe in God or any other higher being that has control over us or whatsoever. You know what I mean by that. Why is an athiest being religious? I know lots of athiests. They just don't believe. How is that religious? I'm sure every athiest thinks about religion from time to time and has an opinion about it, but whether an athiest thinks about it or not, that person is not religious because he thinks it's bullshit.
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Once again, I say stop concerning yourselves with how everything began, and just concern yourselves with whats going on now.
It would make things easier, but that's what human beings do best, investigate because we're curious.
At least one person aknowledged what I said.
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I am kind of mixed on the subject. I was born into a really christian family, so i was born into christianity. I followed it for some time but then my thought process sort of changed. i guess to me it just doesnt seem realistic. That God created the universe. I guess in my mind, i just cant fathm the thought of someone creating a world, because it just puts more questions into my mind, which i could never answer.
Where did God come from? There has to be a beginning to everything. Its hurts my mind to try and think of these sorts of things, because i could never prove them. Then on the other hand like other people mentioned "something happened in my life and i knew it had to be God" i also understand that because i have had some really horrible things happen in my life.
Thats why im mixed on this subject, i dont know what to believe anymore.
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i like being athiast. i just cant belive in a god, its not for me, its too fairy tale, plus i like science, i like theorys, and evolution and big bang, make more sense to me than a mystical magical all powerfull guy who created US and then put his son on the earth..... blah blah blah, to me, its just rediculous,
it seems like religion is outdated, when it was created it was something magical, and was easy to learn, and it gave you hope, now people just follow it, casue of tradition and because they cant handle dieng and not going to heaven, (dont get me started on heaven and hell)..........
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Thanks for your elaborate and real reply Infinite. But, if I may be honest with you, to me you are the type of dude that fits the sentence "Religion - Opium for the People". Religion made your life better, that's why you respect and practice it. Im not denying that that is a wonderful thing, but it's nothing that proves that God/Allah/Buddha exists.
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good story infinite, but... i still dont know how u went from an athiast, to a muslim in just that night. truthfully, u sound just like me, im 18, ive got my own problems (DUI, under age drinkin, parents, etc) but for me to pick up a quaran and sudenly believe, and go crazy over it, fuck that, id piss on a quaran before i waste my time readinging (no offence, thats just my all honest opinion)
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fuck that, id piss on a quaran before i waste my time readinging (no offence, thats just my all honest opinion)
Sikotic, anyone?
lol.
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fuck that, id piss on a quaran before i waste my time readinging (no offence, thats just my all honest opinion)
Sikotic, anyone?
lol.
lol, thats exactly what i was thinking when i typed that
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fuck that, id piss on a quaran before i waste my time readinging (no offence, thats just my all honest opinion)
Sikotic, anyone?
lol.
lmao. Went right over my head probably because I'm not Muslim and it wasn't directed towards me.
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i like being athiast. i just cant belive in a god, its not for me, its too fairy tale, plus i like science, i like theorys, and evolution and big bang, make more sense to me than a mystical magical all powerfull guy who created US and then put his son on the earth..... blah blah blah, to me, its just rediculous,
How did the big bang get their?
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How did God come to existance?
im not being a smartass, this question goes to anyone who can answer it. im curious.
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How did God come to existance?
im not being a smartass, this question goes to anyone who can answer it. im curious.
The bible states that the human mind is to "weak" comprehend God or creation.
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Why would anyone NOT think God exsists?
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i like being athiast. i just cant belive in a god, its not for me, its too fairy tale, plus i like science, i like theorys, and evolution and big bang, make more sense to me than a mystical magical all powerfull guy who created US and then put his son on the earth..... blah blah blah, to me, its just rediculous,
How did the big bang get their?
If you would read my reply at the top of the page...
The Big Bang didn't get "there" at all...its a theory...just as God is a theory IMO. In truth, noone and no-thing can prove or disprove if God exists...and to me the Bible is a fucking novel, no more, so don't bring that up. Honestly...does anyone have actual physical tangible evidence that God or some other divine being created the world and the universe? No they don't...just as they have no physical tangible evidence of the Big Bang.
This is a pointless discussion. Believe what you want people, as everyone else does the same. To me, the ONLY event/thing that could ever possibly make me religous is if God himself came down from "heaven", into my house, and we had a nice long conversation.
Hey Machiavelli...answer this then, holy man. If the human mind is too weak to comprehend God, then how was it possible Abraham or Moses talked to God? Were the super humans? No...they were normal people...which explains that they could not have spoken to God...and which makes them mentally unstable IMO.
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I have no doubts in God. I don't feel like typing up a whole essay on why...PeACe
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It's interesting that a person's motive for believing in God could be used to negate his(God's) exitance, like saying " If someone's life is shitty he's gonna believe in god for the sake of hope, to endure the hard times, meaning that God is actually an illusion, Opium for the people if you will, a Psychological protection mechanism, distortion of reallity"----->How would u explain rich and sucsessfull people who believe in God than?!---> easilly, the more you have to loose the more apprehensive you are as for loosing it, a stressfull situation, a frustration equivalent to that of a poor person, and again the person is searching for a refuge, and finds GOD."
A discussion concerning the psychological motives that bring a person to believe in some fictional saviour is off-throwing and is a playground for speculation since it's about the person's subjective preception of GOD. The questions you need to ask in order to try and comprehand GOD are diffrend, What triggered the begining( Not what was in the begning), What started it? How do you define GOD?
Is GOD a parallel for love or hope in your mind? - If so, you're getting into your subjective reallity conditioned viewes again. Can something emerge out of nothing? phisiclly NO, than how do you explain the start of every metter in the universe? What is perfect emptyness? what was there before there was anything? In a Random combination of possible consequenses how come a creature that can ask itself these questions was produced?
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It's interesting that a person's motive for believing in God could be used to negate his(God's) exitance, like saying " If someone's life is shitty he's gonna believe in god for the sake of hope, to endure the hard times, meaning that God is actually an illusion, Opium for the people if you will, a Psychological protection mechanism, distortion of reallity"----->How would u explain rich and sucsessfull people who believe in God than?!---> easilly, the more you have to loose the more apprehensive you are as for loosing it, a stressfull situation, a frustration equivalent to that of a poor person, and again the person is searching for a refuge, and finds GOD."
A discussion concerning the psychological motives that bring a person to believe in some fictional saviour is off-throwing and is a playground for speculation since it's about the person's subjective preception of GOD. The questions you need to ask in order to try and comprehand GOD are diffrend, What triggered the begining( Not what was in the begning), What started it? How do you define GOD?
Is GOD a parallel for love or hope in your mind? - If so, you're getting into your subjective reallity conditioned viewes again. Can something emerge out of nothing? phisiclly NO, than how do you explain the start of every metter in the universe? What is perfect emptyness? what was there before there was anything? In a Random combination of possible consequenses how come a creature that can ask itself these questions was produced?
1. if nothing can emerge out of nothing, how can there be a God in the first place?
2. from your last lines, I regard that you think humans are way too great to just be there without being created by a higher being. I have to say youre dead wrong. Human arent all that. Definitely not. We were just blessed by evolution, so that we became the smartest folks on earth, but that is where it stops.
3. so if God created everything, and humans have a soul and shit, how do you define humans? let's say humans are evolutionized apes. so, during the process from apes to human, when was it actually homo sapiens and when was it still a dumb creature? when did the soul fly into the being!? also, how come so much time elapsed until these cool humans emerged. I mean, Dinosaurs were here WAY longer than we, and we will destroy ourselves WAY faster than the Dinosaurs were wiped out. Hm, OR, Do Dinosaurs have had souls too? Are Dinosaurs in heaven too?
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It's interesting that a person's motive for believing in God could be used to negate his(God's) exitance, like saying " If someone's life is shitty he's gonna believe in god for the sake of hope, to endure the hard times, meaning that God is actually an illusion, Opium for the people if you will, a Psychological protection mechanism, distortion of reallity"----->How would u explain rich and sucsessfull people who believe in God than?!---> easilly, the more you have to loose the more apprehensive you are as for loosing it, a stressfull situation, a frustration equivalent to that of a poor person, and again the person is searching for a refuge, and finds GOD."
A discussion concerning the psychological motives that bring a person to believe in some fictional saviour is off-throwing and is a playground for speculation since it's about the person's subjective preception of GOD. The questions you need to ask in order to try and comprehand GOD are diffrend, What triggered the begining( Not what was in the begning), What started it? How do you define GOD?
Is GOD a parallel for love or hope in your mind? - If so, you're getting into your subjective reallity conditioned viewes again. Can something emerge out of nothing? phisiclly NO, than how do you explain the start of every metter in the universe? What is perfect emptyness? what was there before there was anything? In a Random combination of possible consequenses how come a creature that can ask itself these questions was produced?
1. if nothing can emerge out of nothing, how can there be a God in the first place?
2. from your last lines, I regard that you think humans are way too great to just be there without being created by a higher being. I have to say youre dead wrong. Human arent all that. Definitely not. We were just blessed by evolution, so that we became the smartest folks on earth, but that is where it stops.
3. so if God created everything, and humans have a soul and shit, how do you define humans? let's say humans are evolutionized apes. so, during the process from apes to human, when was it actually homo sapiens and when was it still a dumb creature? when did the soul fly into the being!? also, how come so much time elapsed until these cool humans emerged. I mean, Dinosaurs were here WAY longer than we, and we will destroy ourselves WAY faster than the Dinosaurs were wiped out. Hm, OR, Do Dinosaurs have had souls too? Are Dinosaurs in heaven too?
1.Here's the thing, nothing can emerge out of emptyness, that's what physics preaches, it's true as far as every possible metter in the universe goes, if you take GOD as metter or as a physical object than your question is adequate, However I don't, I have no idea how to define it in earthly\human terminology, I don't think anyone can, may be you can, that's why acording to you God couldn't have just existed--> something needed to create him too as far as human logic goes, right?---Well, before there was anything, before there was even "time" do you think such definitions as "before" and "after" existed?!....in an emptyness, with no time, no metter, no space as well, complete un-comprehandable nothingness....
2.Oh no, I don't see humans as so Great that they just had to be created by a higher being but only as a creature which could be self concious enough to question it's own creation and evolvement, questions through which it could come to a conclusion it can't comprehand the creation to it's fullest and still be aware of it, it's a paradox if you haven't realised by now---Knowing all the basic rules up on which the universe opperates and to be unable to explain it's start, since it's start defies it's own rules, all we know is this, mathmaticlly as far as probabillity goes, The conditions on planet earth are among the most unlikely and coincidencial in the universe and than billions of years later by that same coincidence a creature evolves to a point it could question it's own existance....doesn't it seem like some kind of a pattern?
3.Here you go talking about souls and stuff, If you've noticed I haven't said a word about souls, I haven't said a thing about the bible's interpretation of history, mainly because it's very perplexing and complex.
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oh one more thing as for" being blessed by evolution" as you noted, did you know that Darwin before his death admited his theory to be incorect?
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How did God come to existance?
im not being a smartass, this question goes to anyone who can answer it. im curious.
The bible states that the human mind is to "weak" comprehend God or creation.
....ok.
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Why would anyone NOT think God exsists?
In my opinion, many times (not all) it comes down to two things.
1. They've had lonely depressing horrible childhoods
2. Their parents didn't believe and taught them it was 'intelligent' not to believe in stories a.k.a. religion
2. They don't want to believe that they're not in control of things
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this thread is like trying to convince someone why my favorite color is blue....or that america gives the most on foreign aid ;D
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Inspired by I Geezy's intelligent discussion on the topic, I thought I'd say one more thing.
In my opinion, there's 3 things humans cannot understand even enough to make intelligent conversation about,
1. God
2. Time
3. Space
We don't understand any of the three, because all three are impossible to our understanding of the world. So ultimately, you can't MAKE someone believe what you believe, or think what you think about any of the three, because any understanding of them is unexpressionable. You may, if you're lucky, one day just 'feel' or be enlightened to a better understanding of any of the three, but you often won't be able to discuss it or express it.
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OH, and just to further complicate the discussion, the next two things on the list are
4. Love
5. Music
Which are a LITTLE BIT more understandable, but still very much a mystery to most of us.
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Why would anyone NOT think God exsists?
In my opinion, many times (not all) it comes down to two things.
1. They've had lonely depressing horrible childhoods
2. Their parents didn't believe and taught them it was 'intelligent' not to believe in stories a.k.a. religion
2. They don't want to believe that they're not in control of things
disgusting.
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It's interesting that a person's motive for believing in God could be used to negate his(God's) exitance, like saying " If someone's life is shitty he's gonna believe in god for the sake of hope, to endure the hard times, meaning that God is actually an illusion, Opium for the people if you will, a Psychological protection mechanism, distortion of reallity"----->How would u explain rich and sucsessfull people who believe in God than?!---> easilly, the more you have to loose the more apprehensive you are as for loosing it, a stressfull situation, a frustration equivalent to that of a poor person, and again the person is searching for a refuge, and finds GOD."
A discussion concerning the psychological motives that bring a person to believe in some fictional saviour is off-throwing and is a playground for speculation since it's about the person's subjective preception of GOD. The questions you need to ask in order to try and comprehand GOD are diffrend, What triggered the begining( Not what was in the begning), What started it? How do you define GOD?
Is GOD a parallel for love or hope in your mind? - If so, you're getting into your subjective reallity conditioned viewes again. Can something emerge out of nothing? phisiclly NO, than how do you explain the start of every metter in the universe? What is perfect emptyness? what was there before there was anything? In a Random combination of possible consequenses how come a creature that can ask itself these questions was produced?
1. if nothing can emerge out of nothing, how can there be a God in the first place?
2. from your last lines, I regard that you think humans are way too great to just be there without being created by a higher being. I have to say youre dead wrong. Human arent all that. Definitely not. We were just blessed by evolution, so that we became the smartest folks on earth, but that is where it stops.
3. so if God created everything, and humans have a soul and shit, how do you define humans? let's say humans are evolutionized apes. so, during the process from apes to human, when was it actually homo sapiens and when was it still a dumb creature? when did the soul fly into the being!? also, how come so much time elapsed until these cool humans emerged. I mean, Dinosaurs were here WAY longer than we, and we will destroy ourselves WAY faster than the Dinosaurs were wiped out. Hm, OR, Do Dinosaurs have had souls too? Are Dinosaurs in heaven too?
1.Here's the thing, nothing can emerge out of emptyness, that's what physics preaches, it's true as far as every possible metter in the universe goes, if you take GOD as metter or as a physical object than your question is adequate, However I don't, I have no idea how to define it in earthly\human terminology, I don't think anyone can, may be you can, that's why acording to you God couldn't have just existed--> something needed to create him too as far as human logic goes, right?---Well, before there was anything, before there was even "time" do you think such definitions as "before" and "after" existed?!....in an emptyness, with no time, no metter, no space as well, complete un-comprehandable nothingness....
2.Oh no, I don't see humans as so Great that they just had to be created by a higher being but only as a creature which could be self concious enough to question it's own creation and evolvement, questions through which it could come to a conclusion it can't comprehand the creation to it's fullest and still be aware of it, it's a paradox if you haven't realised by now---Knowing all the basic rules up on which the universe opperates and to be unable to explain it's start, since it's start defies it's own rules, all we know is this, mathmaticlly as far as probabillity goes, The conditions on planet earth are among the most unlikely and coincidencial in the universe and than billions of years later by that same coincidence a creature evolves to a point it could question it's own existance....doesn't it seem like some kind of a pattern?
3.Here you go talking about souls and stuff, If you've noticed I haven't said a word about souls, I haven't said a thing about the bible's interpretation of history, mainly because it's very perplexing and complex.
Your theories remind me of the ones of Thomas Aquin from ~1500 ... and I thought that was out-dated. It's nothing shorter of a coincidence than your birth. I mean, your father has millions of sperm-thingys and the exact one did it make trough at the exact time, and this before when your parents were born, and before when their parents were born. No imagine that - and most amazing, it happens a million times a day!
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Why would anyone NOT think God exsists?
In my opinion, many times (not all) it comes down to two things.
1. They've had lonely depressing horrible childhoods
2. Their parents didn't believe and taught them it was 'intelligent' not to believe in stories a.k.a. religion
2. They don't want to believe that they're not in control of things
disgusting.
Yeah, it's disgusting for me to say that, but alright for you to say people are idots for believing in God. LOL Realize your hypocricy.
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Why would anyone NOT think God exsists?
In my opinion, many times (not all) it comes down to two things.
1. They've had lonely depressing horrible childhoods
2. Their parents didn't believe and taught them it was 'intelligent' not to believe in stories a.k.a. religion
2. They don't want to believe that they're not in control of things
actually thats really true. Especially 1
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Why would anyone NOT think God exsists?
In my opinion, many times (not all) it comes down to two things.
1. They've had lonely depressing horrible childhoods
2. Their parents didn't believe and taught them it was 'intelligent' not to believe in stories a.k.a. religion
2. They don't want to believe that they're not in control of things
i consider myself fully athiast
1. nope, not depressing at all
2. my parents were not really religious, but not athiast, they did not preach to me, did not force religion on me, gave me freedom
3. i feel im in control of everything, i mean, id love for there to be a god, and me have a happy jolly life, but the truth is, people who are good, and havbe done nothing, die miserbly, so for sojmeone to say, god is watching over us, is bullshit.
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Why would anyone NOT think God exsists?
That's easy to answer.
If one is not raised with religion, (in most cases) this person doesn't believe. It's that simple.
I'm not raised with religion, so I look at religion more down to earth than anyone who actually is raised with religion.
If you are raised by Musims you are very likely to become (be) a Muslim and if you are raised by Christians you are very likely to become (be) Christian. In other words: it's all indoctrination ;)
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Why would anyone NOT think God exsists?
That's easy to answer.
If one is not raised with religion, (in most cases) this person doesn't believe. It's that simple.
I'm not raised with religion, so I look at religion more down to earth than anyone who actually is raised with religion.
If you are raised by Musims you are very likely to become (be) a Muslim and if you are raised by Christians you are very likely to become (be) Christian. In other words: it's all indoctrination ;)
Many man people who were not raised with religion have become religious. There are also many people who were raised religious and once they get out on their own, do their own thing.
Another thing, anyone who says they are in complete control of things is an egotistical fool. An earthquake can come and demolish all of your belonging and kill off all of your loved ones and there isn't a single thing you can do about it. You can, however, think about it two ways: the earthquake is an phenomenon set up by God (whether or not he actually caused the earthquake to happen at that time and location is dependant on whether you think God is still active in the world or not) or that it was a force of mother nature -- a geological phenomenon.
The fact of the matter is that everything goes back to creation vs. evolution, during the period of creation which no one was alive to prove whether God does or does not exsist. So, no one can disprove God's exsistence. Either belief takes faith
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You need to have more faith in the case of creation because it's main point is, as said, unprovable...God himself. While evolution is mostly based on observable,provable facts.
Also, the massive occurence of convergism in nature is big proof of evolution.
Take birds,bats and insects. Each one of them can usually fly ( at least,that's the ancestral case). Though they can all fly, their wings are extremely different.
In insects, the wings consist of altered 'scales' from the back.
In birds, forelimbs with fused fingers and feathers attached to them build up the wing.
In bats, the hands have extremely elongated fingers with leathery skin stretched inbetween those fingers,the arms,the sides of the body, the legs and the tail.
Now all three of them can fly efficiently yet they have completely different designs. If all flying creatures would have been created by God...why not give them all the same equipment? That's illogical, but them evolving from different origins and thus being different ( a la cars and trains) is a good reason for them differing so much in structure while they do the same thing.
(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/bat-wing.gif)
Look at this pic and check the difference between the bird and the bat, and the similairity of the bat to the human, indicating they're much more closely related to each other and have descended and thus,evolved from a common ancestor.
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If all flying creatures would have been created by God...why not give them all the same equipment?
Helicopters and Airplanes fly differently, and they were CREATED by human.
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why would anyone create this terrible bullshit in the first place? LOL. musta be a bored dude.
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This Debate could go on for Century's. Well it are ready has.
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It's interesting that a person's motive for believing in God could be used to negate his(God's) exitance, like saying " If someone's life is shitty he's gonna believe in god for the sake of hope, to endure the hard times, meaning that God is actually an illusion, Opium for the people if you will, a Psychological protection mechanism, distortion of reallity"----->How would u explain rich and sucsessfull people who believe in God than?!---> easilly, the more you have to loose the more apprehensive you are as for loosing it, a stressfull situation, a frustration equivalent to that of a poor person, and again the person is searching for a refuge, and finds GOD."
A discussion concerning the psychological motives that bring a person to believe in some fictional saviour is off-throwing and is a playground for speculation since it's about the person's subjective preception of GOD. The questions you need to ask in order to try and comprehand GOD are diffrend, What triggered the begining( Not what was in the begning), What started it? How do you define GOD?
Is GOD a parallel for love or hope in your mind? - If so, you're getting into your subjective reallity conditioned viewes again. Can something emerge out of nothing? phisiclly NO, than how do you explain the start of every metter in the universe? What is perfect emptyness? what was there before there was anything? In a Random combination of possible consequenses how come a creature that can ask itself these questions was produced?
1. if nothing can emerge out of nothing, how can there be a God in the first place?
2. from your last lines, I regard that you think humans are way too great to just be there without being created by a higher being. I have to say youre dead wrong. Human arent all that. Definitely not. We were just blessed by evolution, so that we became the smartest folks on earth, but that is where it stops.
3. so if God created everything, and humans have a soul and shit, how do you define humans? let's say humans are evolutionized apes. so, during the process from apes to human, when was it actually homo sapiens and when was it still a dumb creature? when did the soul fly into the being!? also, how come so much time elapsed until these cool humans emerged. I mean, Dinosaurs were here WAY longer than we, and we will destroy ourselves WAY faster than the Dinosaurs were wiped out. Hm, OR, Do Dinosaurs have had souls too? Are Dinosaurs in heaven too?
1.Here's the thing, nothing can emerge out of emptyness, that's what physics preaches, it's true as far as every possible metter in the universe goes, if you take GOD as metter or as a physical object than your question is adequate, However I don't, I have no idea how to define it in earthly\human terminology, I don't think anyone can, may be you can, that's why acording to you God couldn't have just existed--> something needed to create him too as far as human logic goes, right?---Well, before there was anything, before there was even "time" do you think such definitions as "before" and "after" existed?!....in an emptyness, with no time, no metter, no space as well, complete un-comprehandable nothingness....
2.Oh no, I don't see humans as so Great that they just had to be created by a higher being but only as a creature which could be self concious enough to question it's own creation and evolvement, questions through which it could come to a conclusion it can't comprehand the creation to it's fullest and still be aware of it, it's a paradox if you haven't realised by now---Knowing all the basic rules up on which the universe opperates and to be unable to explain it's start, since it's start defies it's own rules, all we know is this, mathmaticlly as far as probabillity goes, The conditions on planet earth are among the most unlikely and coincidencial in the universe and than billions of years later by that same coincidence a creature evolves to a point it could question it's own existance....doesn't it seem like some kind of a pattern?
3.Here you go talking about souls and stuff, If you've noticed I haven't said a word about souls, I haven't said a thing about the bible's interpretation of history, mainly because it's very perplexing and complex.
Your theories remind me of the ones of Thomas Aquin from ~1500 ... and I thought that was out-dated. It's nothing shorter of a coincidence than your birth. I mean, your father has millions of sperm-thingys and the exact one did it make trough at the exact time, and this before when your parents were born, and before when their parents were born. No imagine that - and most amazing, it happens a million times a day!
Let's assume The Creation of the universe and the evolvement of it into it's current state is by Coincidence, Let's assume that the creation of Earth was merely by Coincidence as well, Let's also assume Earth's perfect equilibrium within it's environment in space is also by Coincidence, it's distance from the Sun is too, as far as we're concerned. The fact water is in it's most unlikely condition in the universe here on earth is by Coincidence, because you know that universally the most common condition for water is "frozen", and all these Coincidences lead to the creation of life on earth which also makes the creation of life to be by Coincidence,every evolvement and every birth of every human being is of course also by Coincidence and so is every thing ever created, any existing metter reflect's Coincidence through it, in fact Im starting to wonder what is not by Coincidence acording to you, can we render a person deciding to undergo plastic surgery as a coincidence too?- No?! because there's that whole thing with decision, with "Choice", when you decide to do something and then do it, it's no longer rendered as "by coincidence", right?.....but wait, The creation of this person was by Coincidence meaning that whatever he does is by Coincidence too right?....How is it possible that in a never ending sequence of coincidences suddenly comes a moment when it's no longer by Coincidence?--- The Key to answering this question is "choice"....And was there choice before there were humans?!....
p.s
"God gave us choice."
oh one more thing, In this post When you see the term "Coincidence" you should just replace it with "God" or "creator"....Believing in coincidence can also be defined as a religion, it's just like believing in GOD, This way you just don't need to explore The Creator's essence, it's very convenient because you will be able to sleep at night.
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Helicoptors and planes indeed have different designs,but they fly in different ways don't they? This means they aren't doing the same thing and is a reason for their change in structure.
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Helicoptors and planes indeed have different designs,but they fly in different ways don't they? This means they aren't doing the same thing and is a reason for their change in structure.
Bats and birds fly in different ways...Have you ever seen a bat fly?
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This quote is for the religious people over here...
"What is it, is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's?" -Friedrich Nietzsche
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It's interesting that a person's motive for believing in God could be used to negate his(God's) exitance, like saying " If someone's life is shitty he's gonna believe in god for the sake of hope, to endure the hard times, meaning that God is actually an illusion, Opium for the people if you will, a Psychological protection mechanism, distortion of reallity"----->How would u explain rich and sucsessfull people who believe in God than?!---> easilly, the more you have to loose the more apprehensive you are as for loosing it, a stressfull situation, a frustration equivalent to that of a poor person, and again the person is searching for a refuge, and finds GOD."
A discussion concerning the psychological motives that bring a person to believe in some fictional saviour is off-throwing and is a playground for speculation since it's about the person's subjective preception of GOD. The questions you need to ask in order to try and comprehand GOD are diffrend, What triggered the begining( Not what was in the begning), What started it? How do you define GOD?
Is GOD a parallel for love or hope in your mind? - If so, you're getting into your subjective reallity conditioned viewes again. Can something emerge out of nothing? phisiclly NO, than how do you explain the start of every metter in the universe? What is perfect emptyness? what was there before there was anything? In a Random combination of possible consequenses how come a creature that can ask itself these questions was produced?
1. if nothing can emerge out of nothing, how can there be a God in the first place?
2. from your last lines, I regard that you think humans are way too great to just be there without being created by a higher being. I have to say youre dead wrong. Human arent all that. Definitely not. We were just blessed by evolution, so that we became the smartest folks on earth, but that is where it stops.
3. so if God created everything, and humans have a soul and shit, how do you define humans? let's say humans are evolutionized apes. so, during the process from apes to human, when was it actually homo sapiens and when was it still a dumb creature? when did the soul fly into the being!? also, how come so much time elapsed until these cool humans emerged. I mean, Dinosaurs were here WAY longer than we, and we will destroy ourselves WAY faster than the Dinosaurs were wiped out. Hm, OR, Do Dinosaurs have had souls too? Are Dinosaurs in heaven too?
1.Here's the thing, nothing can emerge out of emptyness, that's what physics preaches, it's true as far as every possible metter in the universe goes, if you take GOD as metter or as a physical object than your question is adequate, However I don't, I have no idea how to define it in earthly\human terminology, I don't think anyone can, may be you can, that's why acording to you God couldn't have just existed--> something needed to create him too as far as human logic goes, right?---Well, before there was anything, before there was even "time" do you think such definitions as "before" and "after" existed?!....in an emptyness, with no time, no metter, no space as well, complete un-comprehandable nothingness....
2.Oh no, I don't see humans as so Great that they just had to be created by a higher being but only as a creature which could be self concious enough to question it's own creation and evolvement, questions through which it could come to a conclusion it can't comprehand the creation to it's fullest and still be aware of it, it's a paradox if you haven't realised by now---Knowing all the basic rules up on which the universe opperates and to be unable to explain it's start, since it's start defies it's own rules, all we know is this, mathmaticlly as far as probabillity goes, The conditions on planet earth are among the most unlikely and coincidencial in the universe and than billions of years later by that same coincidence a creature evolves to a point it could question it's own existance....doesn't it seem like some kind of a pattern?
3.Here you go talking about souls and stuff, If you've noticed I haven't said a word about souls, I haven't said a thing about the bible's interpretation of history, mainly because it's very perplexing and complex.
Your theories remind me of the ones of Thomas Aquin from ~1500 ... and I thought that was out-dated. It's nothing shorter of a coincidence than your birth. I mean, your father has millions of sperm-thingys and the exact one did it make trough at the exact time, and this before when your parents were born, and before when their parents were born. No imagine that - and most amazing, it happens a million times a day!
Let's assume The Creation of the universe and the evolvement of it into it's current state is by Coincidence, Let's assume that the creation of Earth was merely by Coincidence as well, Let's also assume Earth's perfect equilibrium within it's environment in space is also by Coincidence, it's distance from the Sun is too, as far as we're concerned. The fact water is in it's most unlikely condition in the universe here on earth is by Coincidence, because you know that universally the most common condition for water is "frozen", and all these Coincidences lead to the creation of life on earth which also makes the creation of life to be by Coincidence,every evolvement and every birth of every human being is of course also by Coincidence and so is every thing ever created, any existing metter reflect's Coincidence through it, in fact Im starting to wonder what is not by Coincidence acording to you, can we render a person deciding to undergo plastic surgery as a coincidence too?- No?! because there's that whole thing with decision, with "Choice", when you decide to do something and then do it, it's no longer rendered as "by coincidence", right?.....but wait, The creation of this person was by Coincidence meaning that whatever he does is by Coincidence too right?....How is it possible that in a never ending sequence of coincidences suddenly comes a moment when it's no longer by Coincidence?--- The Key to answering this question is "choice"....And was there choice before there were humans?!....
p.s
"God gave us choice."
oh one more thing, In this post When you see the term "Coincidence" you should just replace it with "God" or "creator"....Believing in coincidence can also be defined as a religion, it's just like believing in GOD, This way you just don't need to explore The Creator's essence, it's very convenient because you will be able to sleep at night.
lmao... that's ridicolous. the way the earth is, makes it the kind of planet on which creatures like human can live. on other planets, such creatures simply dont emerge. it's that simple. you are megalomaniac if you think this whole circumstances with perfect equilibrium, water, sun is created just so that fools like you and me can live here lmao. it was what it was, and creatures who were able to live under those conditions emerged on the planet. if the sun was way nearer or way farer, other creatures wouldve emerged or maybe also no creatures at all, whatever, doesnt matter.
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yea, so it's all a Coincidence right?!....just like I said ;)....
I rest my case and you can have your faith.
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yea, so it's all a Coincidence right?!
Yup.
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You need to have more faith in the case of creation because it's main point is, as said, unprovable...God himself. While evolution is mostly based on observable,provable facts.
Also, the massive occurence of convergism in nature is big proof of evolution.
Take birds,bats and insects. Each one of them can usually fly ( at least,that's the ancestral case). Though they can all fly, their wings are extremely different.
In insects, the wings consist of altered 'scales' from the back.
In birds, forelimbs with fused fingers and feathers attached to them build up the wing.
In bats, the hands have extremely elongated fingers with leathery skin stretched inbetween those fingers,the arms,the sides of the body, the legs and the tail.
Now all three of them can fly efficiently yet they have completely different designs. If all flying creatures would have been created by God...why not give them all the same equipment? That's illogical, but them evolving from different origins and thus being different ( a la cars and trains) is a good reason for them differing so much in structure while they do the same thing.
(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/bat-wing.gif)
Look at this pic and check the difference between the bird and the bat, and the similairity of the bat to the human, indicating they're much more closely related to each other and have descended and thus,evolved from a common ancestor.
that's not good reasoning....there's thousands of diffrent cars, different bikes, different plates...i can go on and on....and these were created by man, and man was created in God's image
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You need to have more faith in the case of creation because it's main point is, as said, unprovable...God himself. While evolution is mostly based on observable,provable facts.
Also, the massive occurence of convergism in nature is big proof of evolution.
Take birds,bats and insects. Each one of them can usually fly ( at least,that's the ancestral case). Though they can all fly, their wings are extremely different.
In insects, the wings consist of altered 'scales' from the back.
In birds, forelimbs with fused fingers and feathers attached to them build up the wing.
In bats, the hands have extremely elongated fingers with leathery skin stretched inbetween those fingers,the arms,the sides of the body, the legs and the tail.
Now all three of them can fly efficiently yet they have completely different designs. If all flying creatures would have been created by God...why not give them all the same equipment? That's illogical, but them evolving from different origins and thus being different ( a la cars and trains) is a good reason for them differing so much in structure while they do the same thing.
(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/bat-wing.gif)
Look at this pic and check the difference between the bird and the bat, and the similairity of the bat to the human, indicating they're much more closely related to each other and have descended and thus,evolved from a common ancestor.
that's not good reasoning....there's thousands of diffrent cars, different bikes, different plates...i can go on and on....and these were created by man, and man was created in God's image
Exactamundo
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you people that don't believe in god.... you really believe that the hundreds of thousands of different species of insect, fish, bacteria, birds, reptiles, fish....all came from the same one celled organism?
i find that hard to believe, because as a human...and lets say that there were only humans on the earth...i know my kids, my kid's kids, my kid's kid's kids.....and their kids for hundreds of generations will be human.... they're not going to sprout wings, gills, claws, scales or any other thing that will classify them as a new species ever.
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no, but your children may never get wisdom teeth
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no, but your children may never get wisdom teeth
That has to do with heredity, not evolution. It's similar to whether you get a widow's peak, or whether or not your ear lobe is elongated.
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How come the monkeys and Apes of this era have not evelved into humans?
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there have been several organisms. nothing wrong with that. if god created us humans why would he wait so long to do that. and why would he create us in a way that makes us destroying ourselves in a heartbeat. if you see the earth from the beginning of existence till now as 24 hours, we just live for a couple of secondes. and we also die in a couple of seconds. how can that be his big creation.
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How come the monkeys and Apes of this era have not evelved into humans?
that's plain stupid. humans arent even long enought here to watch another mammal going through such a big evolution, not to go further into the schemes of evolution.
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there is no god
i know theres no god but there is a GOD :D U always spell his name with capital LETTERS his bigger just give him a chance give your self a chance when you need him i will help u but always remenber always thank him ... God gave me a chance and iam gonna take it show me Bacon iam gonna take it .... Life is a test dogg but if God Test u it means the your ready for the test i will past if you pray dogg. Oh just do good they always rewards
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there is no god
i know theres no god but there is a GOD :D U always spell his name with capital LETTERS his bigger just give him a chance give your self a chance when you need him i will help u but always remenber always thank him ... God gave me a chance and iam gonna take it show me Bacon iam gonna take it .... Life is a test dogg but if God Test u it means the your ready for the test i will past if you pray dogg. Oh just do good they always rewards
talking about god as the instrument of repression created by the higher society to prevent revolution.
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How come the monkeys and Apes of this era have not evelved into humans?
that's plain stupid. humans arent even long enought here to watch another mammal going through such a big evolution, not to go further into the schemes of evolution.
If we were not here long enough to witness a big evolution, then how do you know for sure? See, you BELIEVE it has happened in the past. I could make a thread similar to this one and bash evolutionists for believing in a big bang because they just want to make up a shitty and simple explanation for the origin of a world so beautifully designed and complex.
It can go both ways, therefore, there's no point in arguing. The presence of God in today's world, however, is something that can still be debated.
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The presence of God in today's world, however, is something that can still be debated.
I dont see anything here to which I would refer the presence of god. the world is a mess. War between the religions, with each of them using god's name in vain. not to talk about the everyday things that are fucked up. In 50 years the world wont be very beautiful anyways, when all the rainforest are destroyed etc.
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Believe me I fear the same. Out here in the San Fernando Valley/Southern California area, the sky isn't even blue anymore because of pollution. Only when it rains do we get to see the beautiful blue sky in it's glory.
Though I believe God created the world, more than ever I've been doubting whether he really is omnipresent like it says in the Bible.
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there have been several organisms. nothing wrong with that. if god created us humans why would he wait so long to do that. and why would he create us in a way that makes us destroying ourselves in a heartbeat. if you see the earth from the beginning of existence till now as 24 hours, we just live for a couple of secondes. and we also die in a couple of seconds. how can that be his big creation.
cars don't even last 20 years in constant use and thats one of our big creations
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The presence of God in today's world, however, is something that can still be debated.
I dont see anything here to which I would refer the presence of god. the world is a mess. War between the religions, with each of them using god's name in vain. not to talk about the everyday things that are fucked up. In 50 years the world wont be very beautiful anyways, when all the rainforest are destroyed etc.
it says in the bible that he gave us a choice....God's not wrecking the world....Bush is
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The presence of God in today's world, however, is something that can still be debated.
I dont see anything here to which I would refer the presence of god. the world is a mess. War between the religions, with each of them using god's name in vain. not to talk about the everyday things that are fucked up. In 50 years the world wont be very beautiful anyways, when all the rainforest are destroyed etc.
it says in the bible that he gave us a choice....God's not wrecking the world....Bush is
In your believes, didn't God create Bush??
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there have been several organisms. nothing wrong with that. if god created us humans why would he wait so long to do that. and why would he create us in a way that makes us destroying ourselves in a heartbeat. if you see the earth from the beginning of existence till now as 24 hours, we just live for a couple of secondes. and we also die in a couple of seconds. how can that be his big creation.
cars don't even last 20 years in constant use and thats one of our big creations
with we die I meant that he human race will probably die out in a few thousand years if not earlier. the equivalent to this would be that in like 5 minutes after the first car was created noone ever drives a car ever again. llol
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you know the problem with this is that you all look stupid, and you'll never agree.
once you understand that everyone thinks they're right you'll be fine.
you HAVE to respect the fact that someone either believes or doesn't you won't change their mind!
here is why i 'dont believe'
as a child i was forced to go to sunday school.. (church of england btw.. ) even at a young age i would ask the awkward questions.. but i was also very very aware of the weird techniques they were using on us.
one i remember is being given a lil cup with salt water in and being told it was christs tears.. the other kids blindly did what they were told, and accepted it as being what she said it was.. whereas i saw her put the salt in the water and hand it out.
now as a 4 year old kid.. what you think that did to my opinion of the faith?
smoke and mirrors..
for example. if you know anything about the truth and history of the bible you'd understand that its STORIES. they even have proof that earlier versions of the stories exist, and even worse that they were poached from other religions.
later on christianity's tactic was to absorb pagan traditions to make the transfer easy for people..
it was a bending of the faith to suit its masters needs.
islam and chistianity were both INVENTIONS... both have been created in our history.. we even know when and who.
how can something man-made be the truth?
what about the religions that failed? do you know offshoots of christianity were oppressed as heresy by the catholics? you should look up the cathars
evolution is FACT, its been proved thanks to micro evolution.
to the person that said about why wouldn't his decendants evolve..the answer is they would.
BUT
that would only happen if you put them on different continents for 100,000s of years without contact and cross-breeding...
depending upon the environment they're placed in the more suited ones would survive, or become more masterful in that environment.
answer me this why in every corner ofthe world where man kind has existed did they all invent and follow DIFFERENT religions.. ?
why did they practice things that others through were vile?
because they were things made up by mankind to try and do one of hte following 2 things..
1) to control people
2) to try and control and explain the world around themselves.
an example of 2 is like how in some religions sacrifices "to the gods" were made when crops were bad.
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The pro-religion arguments here are getting increasingly stupid and ignorant.
How come the monkeys and Apes of this era have not evelved into humans?
Now that's an easy one. It's a simple biological and also economical principle that two organisms or businesses can't do the same thing at the same time at the same place due to competition. Either one will go extinct (or bancrupt) or one will only be able to have a marginal existence.
Because the human niche (that is, an ecological space and no we are not 'above' that) is allready occupied by us and because that is the case no ape or whatever other creature would evolve into a humanoid form because they would start out at a disadvantage in being still evolving towards that state while we are allready at our state of development. What happens is, is that no such creature would be able to compete while we are still there and thus, it would go extinct. Also, organisms only evolve to fill a different niche when this niche is open.
My example of flyers might not have been the most convincing but check out burrowing mammals. We have these fossorial (highly specialised in subterraneous borrowing) mammal groups.
The marsupial mole, a marsupial.
http://namamisozui.hp.infoseek.co.jp/y2/y2-kami/17.jpg
Golden moles, afrotheres ( along with aardvarks,tenrecs,seacows,dassies and elephants)
http://bali.co.kr/zoo/image5/%B5%CE%B4%F5%C1%E305goldenMole.jpg
Typical moles, insectivores (like hedgehogs and shrews and for those who it says anything,solenodons)
http://www.hdra.org.uk/assets/mole.jpg
mole rats and blind mice, rodents.
http://www.nbi.ac.za/haroldporter/haroldporterimages/capemolerat2.jpg
http://www.terrambiente.org/fauna/Mammiferi/rodentia/images/spalax.jpg
Anyone will notice these animals are VERY much alike,yet they are completely unrelated. Even the blind mice and mole rats are not closely related within rodents.
The reason they are so different is because each one of them has fully devoted itself to the same sort of lifestyle wich made their much different ancestors develop the same specialisations independent from each other. Each of them aquired burrowing claws, a cilindric body and lost their external ears and degenerated their eyes,in many cases becoming blind and having their eyes covered in skin. The reason they could evolve into occupying the same niche is that they were all isolated from each other in time and place. Since humans are eveywhere, there is no place any creature could evolve into occupying the same niche as we do.
Took a lot of space and letters to explain but the principle is easy.
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you know the problem with this is that you all look stupid, and you'll never agree.
once you understand that everyone thinks they're right you'll be fine.
you HAVE to respect the fact that someone either believes or doesn't you won't change their mind!
here is why i 'dont believe'
as a child i was forced to go to sunday school.. (church of england btw.. ) even at a young age i would ask the awkward questions.. but i was also very very aware of the weird techniques they were using on us.
one i remember is being given a lil cup with salt water in and being told it was christs tears.. the other kids blindly did what they were told, and accepted it as being what she said it was.. whereas i saw her put the salt in the water and hand it out.
now as a 4 year old kid.. what you think that did to my opinion of the faith?
smoke and mirrors..
for example. if you know anything about the truth and history of the bible you'd understand that its STORIES. they even have proof that earlier versions of the stories exist, and even worse that they were poached from other religions.
later on christianity's tactic was to absorb pagan traditions to make the transfer easy for people..
it was a bending of the faith to suit its masters needs.
islam and chistianity were both INVENTIONS... both have been created in our history.. we even know when and who.
how can something man-made be the truth?
what about the religions that failed? do you know offshoots of christianity were oppressed as heresy by the catholics? you should look up the cathars
evolution is FACT, its been proved thanks to micro evolution.
to the person that said about why wouldn't his decendants evolve..the answer is they would.
BUT
that would only happen if you put them on different continents for 100,000s of years without contact and cross-breeding...
depending upon the environment they're placed in the more suited ones would survive, or become more masterful in that environment.
answer me this why in every corner ofthe world where man kind has existed did they all invent and follow DIFFERENT religions.. ?
why did they practice things that others through were vile?
because they were things made up by mankind to try and do one of hte following 2 things..
1) to control people
2) to try and control and explain the world around themselves.
an example of 2 is like how in some religions sacrifices "to the gods" were made when crops were bad.
Big props to the Overseer
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you know the problem with this is that you all look stupid, and you'll never agree.
once you understand that everyone thinks they're right you'll be fine.
you HAVE to respect the fact that someone either believes or doesn't you won't change their mind!
I dont intend to make everyone believe like I do, I just like to debate about issues like this one, I dont see anything wrong with that. I respect it when ppl like Infinite came to a better life through religion, but things like this just prove my thoughts about religion - and dont make the assumption of God existing / Religion being the real deal accurate in any way.
the stuff Z said about the niches is damn right. I recall learning something like this at school. not with humans, but with birds, and of course it's also the case with humans. we are not more than animals. special animals of course, cause evolution blessed/screwed (however you see it) us, but still mammals, like many other animals.
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The presence of God in today's world, however, is something that can still be debated.
I dont see anything here to which I would refer the presence of god. the world is a mess. War between the religions, with each of them using god's name in vain. not to talk about the everyday things that are fucked up. In 50 years the world wont be very beautiful anyways, when all the rainforest are destroyed etc.
it says in the bible that he gave us a choice....God's not wrecking the world....Bush is
In your believes, didn't God create Bush??
no bush is a cyborg remember?
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People, your mistake is that you are not discusing GOD (The Creator....), you are discusing Religion.... Religion is also a subjective view, you need to go deeper, think, try picturing the begining, think how can something emerge out of nothing, how can we even talk about science and physics the way we know them today, It's a whole diffrend liege, All of the basic rules we think the universe work's upon were defied in it's own begining, or haven't even existed back then, you guys can't close yourselves to The Paradox Of The Begining....I never realised this untill a certain age, ever since I was enlightened(through a kind of guiding) I haven't been the same.
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I never realised this untill a certain age, ever since I was enlightened(through a kind of guiding) I haven't been the same.
my homie from scientology tells me the same 8)
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on other planets, such creatures simply dont emerge. it's that simple. you are megalomaniac if you think this whole circumstances with perfect equilibrium, water, sun is created just so that fools like you and me can live here lmao. it was what it was, and creatures who were able to live under those conditions emerged on the planet. if the sun was way nearer or way farer, other creatures wouldve emerged or maybe also no creatures at all, whatever, doesnt matter.
perfectly said, i used to somewhat believe in a god, but it was scketchy, i though, how could everything be so perfect without a god, and a smart person told me, if everything wasn't so perfect we wouldnt be here....
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It's not even a question of faith or belief for me, it's more like some kind of awareness.
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on other planets, such creatures simply dont emerge. it's that simple. you are megalomaniac if you think this whole circumstances with perfect equilibrium, water, sun is created just so that fools like you and me can live here lmao. it was what it was, and creatures who were able to live under those conditions emerged on the planet. if the sun was way nearer or way farer, other creatures wouldve emerged or maybe also no creatures at all, whatever, doesnt matter.
perfectly said, i used to somewhat believe in a god, but it was scketchy, i though, how could everything be so perfect without a god, and a smart person told me, if everything wasn't so perfect we wouldnt be here....
thank you, I lack positive recognition and so Im happy of every appreciation I can get :D
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evolution is FACT, its been proved thanks to micro evolution.
Evolution is not a fact. No science is a fact. It's all theory. Hume made sure of that. I am not claiming evolution is a false theory, but it is not a fact. If it were then there wouldn't be ongoing arguments about it. Our whole idea of science could change drastically in 100 years. Just like it's changed so many times before.
I am religious and I believe in Jesus. The reasons for this are simple: 1) I agree fully with everything he taught. 2) I don't want to die. Very simple, and maybe a little selfish. I don't want to live an average of only 80 years and then that's it. I want to live forever. Of course Christianity is not the only religion that promises this, but it is the one that suits me. It doesn't suit other people, and that's fine. They find other ways to follow the greater good. Ultimately it is the greater good that I believe in. I believe that every one knows when they're doing something wrong and not doing it or repenting is listening to Jesus, metaphorically speaking.
I don't waste my time thinking about things that are irrelevent. I don't care who or how the world was created, or what lies in the far depths of the universe. It doesn't in any way do anything for me or anyone else. I try my best to live my life as best as I can without hurting other people. That's it. Too many preoccupy themselves with the unknown. My advice to those people is get on with your day and do something productive. We'll never understand it so why bother trying.
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Microevolution is not evolution, It's adaptation. All organisms can adapt to their climate and surroundings, if not we would all be dead by now. Land animals that are surrounded by water do not grow fins and vice versa.
I mean I seriously don't get how you guys can believe in evolution. The scientific laws defy it. For example, according to evolution, organisms evolve and improve and become better until the point of perfection somewhere in the distant future. The laws of Thermodynamics say that everything on the earth is breaking down slowly. WHICH ONE IS IT? Thermodynamics is PROVEN and makes since when you look at the Ozone layer, extinction, etc.
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There is NO difference between micro- and macro-evolution. It's all the same. The terms have been invented by creationists and anti-evolutionists to make up a non-argument. See, big groups of entirely new organisms don't just evolve from one year to another from a totally different group,as those using the term macro-evolution like to imply evolutionists mean. It's just an adding sum of one small change after another over a very long time. In the end, the creatures will be very different.This is 'micro-evolution' in it's extended,and unevitable, sense.
The macro-/ micro-evolution is non-argument.
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Scientists are 99% sure evolution happens. Why in the world would you believe in that 1%??
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'm not saying I don't believe in evolution. I'm just saying it is wrong to call it a fact. A fact is non disputable. Evolution is disputable, by scientists not just by religious fanatics. As for the 99% thing. A couple of thousand years ago Greek scientists used logic to state that if you drop two objects the heavier will build up more force and hit the ground first. This was accepted in science circles everywhere. Then 1500 yeas later some one did the unthinkable, and actually tried it. It became apparant that two objects different in size and mass drop at hte same time and speed. WhaT I mean by this, is don't discount that one percent, because you never know for sure.
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Someone could have replaced your mothers kid for another kid when you were still a baby. So it's wrong for you to call your mom your mom.
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Someone could have replaced your mothers kid for another kid when you were still a baby. So it's wrong for you to call your mom your mom.
Oh my god you're right!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe I haven't seen this before. Thank You! Now I can go search for my real family.
This is such a stupid rebuttle. All I said was in has been proven time and time again that science is all theory and can never be 100% proven. Some things are more obvious than others but evolution is not. The greatest scientists in the world debate this daily and you want me to take your word for it. I've heard arguments that DNA cannot be changed and therefore evolution cannot exist. I'm not sure what the whole explanation was but it was on some special on Evolution I saw on A&E or Discovery. Science is not LAW. Einstein has not been proven wrong about his theory of relativity, but to say it cannot be proven wrong is ridiculous. This why it is the THEORY of relativity, and not the law of relativity. Even Newton's laws are now theories, because a philosopher in the 1800s said we cannot predict the future and it is wrong to say something will always happen.
As for me being sweitched at birth. How do you know I wasn't born at home and kept there? Shit, even if I was switched at birth. The woman that raised me, loved me, and took care is still the one I'll always call mom. No DNA test can ever change that. That's the problem with science, it can never take into account the power of love and emotion. The intangibles if you will.
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Explain to me why they teach about evolution in schools.
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Explain to me why they teach about evolution in schools.
They also teach the big bang and that has never been proven. No school I have ever been in has stated that Evolution is a 100% fact. It is a very strong theory and should be taught. Just like Enstein's theories should be taught.
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Explain to me why they teach about evolution in schools.
they teach a lot of theory in school, ex. Phsycology
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lol, thinking that Evolution doesnt exist takes it a little too far for me.
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I never said it doesn't exist. I just said there is no absolute proof of it, therefore we cannot say that it definately exists. Personally I don't care either way.
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And there is no proof for God at all, so quit the bullshit. Lock this thread please.
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Of course there isn't any proof of God. That is the point of having faith. If it were definate then we wouldn't have much a debate about anything or need to realize what was right and wrong, and it wouldn't be faith. If there was a heavenly voice that spoke to everyone simulateously every day and told us how to live there would be very little free will to choose the right path.
I never once said that I knew for a fact that God existed, I only claim to belive there is a God. Big difference. That's what separates a spiritual man (or woman) from a scientific one. The true spiritual man is open to everything and admits he KNOWS nothing, while the scientific man always needs proof and believes in the facts of science, at least until some other scientist comes alomg with a new method that disproves the previous one. I like science, I just realize through reading science history that no science can be claimed as definate, because we never know what will happen in the future.