West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Ant on October 17, 2004, 11:00:52 PM
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To anyone leaning towards Kerry/Edwards or still on the fence... some brief thoughts.
At times over the past four years it seems as if the news just doesn't care to do its job. Information I feel is important constantly gets buried in the press, but with a little research it becomes clear just how important it is to get out and vote for Kerry on Nov. 2. Consider the following:
1. Every single living American Nobel Laureate economist has endorsed Kerry citing Bush's misguided and disasterous economic policies. On this front, while Bush receives some support, he receives virtually unamimous opposition from the economic community. It is widely believed that Kerry would be better on economic issues, but it is not understood the extent to which Bush is mismanaging the economy. Without getting into a lot of specifics at this point it simply needs to be said and understood that the 'voices of wisdom' stand with Kerry on this issue. See.... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818277/
2. Over 5000 American Scientists including 48 Nobel Laureates, 62 national medal of science recipients, and 127 members of the National Academy of Science have signed a statment saying the Bush Administration is manipulating science for political gain and in doing so is putting the welfare of the public at risk. See.. http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release.cfm?newsID=405
3. Harvard Business School has become so fet up with the Bush Administration that the VERY school the president earned his MBA from recently drafted a letter explaining why they feel Bush is bad for the country. 95% of HBS professors signed the letter and they then passed the letter onto MIT and Wharton where it was signed by 90% of their business and economic departments. http://www.openlettertothepresident.org/
4. 750 'foreign policy specialists' drafted and signed a letter accusing the Bush Administration's foreign policy of being severly misguided.
http://www.sensibleforeignpolicy.net/
5. Our support in the world is at an ALL TIME LOW.. Of 60 countries surveyed last month only 3 want Bush re-elected: Russia, Nigeria, and Poland. A new poll of 10 countries this month confirmed that result. Of the ten countries polled only 2 wanted Bush re-elected: Russia, and Poland. Only 28% of Great Britian wants to see Bush re-elected and these numberes continue to trend downward. If Bush wins the whitehouse again he will be the least liked American President EVER.
If you don't think its important to Vote this year your wrong!... if you're not sure which side you should stand on, think hard.. which side offers the more persuading arguement? Bill Clinton said recently "information is our ally, deception is theirs" look over the recent campaign, and that statement sadly rings true. Rather than debate the facts, Bush has ran a marketing campaign based on name calling (liberal, flip-flopper), lies, and deception.
PS Feel free to use the links above and spread the word. A lot of this stuff just doesn't make headlines on its own.
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of course poland wants bush
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i'm writing in a candidate.......................
magic Johnson bitches, no better way to bring up the economy and bring in more jobs than to set up a jillion chains of Magic johnson theaters across america and another jillion magic johnson starbucks!
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i'm writing in a candidate.......................
magic Johnson bitches, no better way to bring up the economy and bring in more jobs than to set up a jillion chains of Magic johnson theaters across america and another jillion magic johnson starbucks!
doesn't he own TGI Friday's too?
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Ant, wouldn't you prefer that people get out and vote whom they want to, instead of for a candidate they may not know much about?
I would prefer that everyone get out, do the research, and vote for whom they think best represents their ideals and morals, whom you would like to see in office. I'll leave it up to you to choose who that is... but don't vote if you're ignorant about the issues and what each candidate believes, you'd be foolish to vote in someone you don't know anything about. Research the issues.
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Fire Bush!!!!!!!!!!!!!
out-source his ass
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Fire Bush!!!!!!!!!!!!!
out-source his ass
couldn't have said it better!
Props to Ant for posting this... and very good for actually having references.
Vote KERRY/EDWARDS on Nov. 2nd.
Peace 8)
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You know i was going to vote bush until i read your sweet ass thread.
"Havard business school wrote a letter saying bush is a horrible president"
OMG! HARDVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL? Well in that case im changing my vote, Kerry all the way.
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My point with the Harvard Business School letter was the fact that Bush graduated from HBS. His own college is endorsing his opponent. I should point out that I am not a fan of HBS nor am I an fan of MBA's. Bush is our first MBA president. After watching his performance I'd like to hope he is our last for awhile.
And Twang... Yes I believe everyone should be educated on the issues, and I believe an informed voter will choose KERRY/EDWARDS. The fact of the matter is, I pointed out some information on the topic for people to think about. The people I cited are some of the most 'informed' people in the country and it is clear where they stand on the issues. Remember my previous quote, "information is our ally, deception is theirs." Its true. If someone really wants to debate the topic, or wants more information on Kerry/Edwards feel free to say so. But my point was simply, credible minds want Kerry. That might not be enough for some people, but it was enough for me, and if by chance it isn't enough for you, well there is plenty more information to supplement what i've already shared.
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Ant, don't ever fall in to the trap of thinking that YOUR thinking is the only thinking that matters. I hope that makes sense.
IT IS POSSIBLE (and I know this may be hard on you) that people could BE informed, and STILL disagree with you. For instance; I'm informed. How could I not be? I hear all the negative shit Bush does because yall pound it down anybody's throat who will listen, but yet I still choose to support Bush and I will vote for George Bush on November 2nd. That's not because I'm ignorant, that's not because I'm not informed, and it's not because anyone is any more intelligent or informed than I am... it's because I look @ all the info, and choose to support George Bush.
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I really was not arguing my opinions. I was simply pointing out that a large number of credible minds want Bush out. Yes, it is my belief that an informed voter wants Bush out. But that is not always the case. Some people are simply unshakable and regardless of the evidence they aren't going to change their mind. I believe you are probably one of those people, but other people on this forum are willing to listen to resonable evidence.
Basically, a lot of people vote their ideology. But I agree with you. Just because its your ideology does not make it the correct ideology. That doesn't take away from the fact that there is enormous evidence opposing a Bush presidency. I'll put one more reason not to vote GWB forward. His lack of moral character. In fact his greatest strength is even questionable. Why? Just look at the campaign. He is trying to win based on exageration, deception, and at times outright lies. That thoroughly disturbs me.
Example 1: "We need to fight the terrorists over there so we don't have to fight them here." This statement is simply absurd. Its an attempt to scare, and deceive the public into voting Bush. Does anyone really think its possible to kill all the terrorists? And does anyone really think they can't make it over here. Thousands cross our borders every day. My friend uses an expired passport every time he boards a plane just to see if he will ever get caught. He hasn't.
Example 2: "John Kerry says we need to pass a Global Test before we go to war. He will let other countries veto our decisions to defend ourselves." This is just an outright deception. Bush failed in the first debate and then needed to cling to something so he took the 'global test' line completely out of context. It shows the extent to which he will go to manipulate the public. What Kerry really said was "If i'm president I'll take this country to war in such a way that when we look back on our actions we pass the test, we pass the global test, where we retain our integrity in own eyes, and in the eyes of the rest of the world." He was simply saying... he won't take us into a war we will be embarassed about. He won't lead us into another Vietnam... but Bush mischaracterized.
Example 3: Cheney saying to Edwards "I never met you in person until today" Except he was caught on video with Edwards.
Example 4: The nuisance line. Again Bush jumped on an opportunity to mischaracterize Kerry's words. I'm not going to get into it. Go read the full quote from Kerry and then read how bush tried to reframe the quote to mean something else.
Example 5: The all out charge to brand Kerry as the biggest liberal ever. Why are we trying to brand our opponents with labels instead of ACTUALLY DEBATING THEM..... name calling is just entirely inappropriate and if you do some research this label isn't even true.
Example 6: The all out charge the brand Kerry as huge flip-flopper. Kerry said this the day he cast his vote to give GW the authority to go to war... its the same thing he is still saying today.
Kerry (Oct. 9, 2002) Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him (Saddam) by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances.
Example 7: His entirely anti-conservative decision to protect the pharmaseutical market. The pharma companies gave big money to GW and the RNC and GW gave them protection from international competition. Nevermind that convervatives for years have been opposed to economic protectionism.
There are plenty of others, but i'm sure you don't want to read this post all nite. Simply put... instead of debating the issues, Bush runs a campaign based on fear, deception, and name-calling.
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That's a perfect example. You see Bush running a campaign based on fear and deception, but I've watched the same ads, the same debates, heard Bush saying the same things, and I believe what he says is pretty reasonable and accurate. So, you see it one way, I see it another way. You are not the arbitrator of truth for me, and I cannot arbitrate what is the truth for you. We both see it, and we both make up our minds, and perhaps we both feel totally different about it. That doesn't make either one of us less intelligent, or uninformed; we've both seen the same info, we've both thought about it, and we've both came to two totally different conclusions. There IS no right or wrong answer in this, because it's not objective. It's subjective. We're all evaluating and making our own decisions.
So I think you're wrong when you assume that people who vote Bush are ignorant of information, or that they don't want to change their opinion. Some people just disagree with you. If nobody disagreed, all you'd have to do is make people listen, and nobody would have any choice save abandoning their beliefs, because we'd all believe the same.
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You don't defeat facts by calling them opinions.. That fact that you don't see exagerations and deceptions doesn't mean they don't exist. Only a person willing to consider both sides will see the truth. You're not one of those poeple. You can argue all day, "i'm entitled to my opinion too.\," but that proves very little. The bottom line is, Bush support can't stand up to criticism. Time and time again I've seen Bush supporters run from the arguments, or try to reframe the debate. You have yet to dispute one claim I've made against your candidate. Your only argument is "I'm allowed to have opinions too! and if my opinions can be wrong so can yours." Then you'll do what your candidate does himself. When faced with an argument you just can't win, pick off one line that you can counter and attack that while ignoring the stronger points. I've put forward plenty of strong points. I gave links to even stronger arguements. Where is your support? Where are logical arguments supporting Bush. I have yet to hear one from anybody, and I would like to. If only so I can rest at nite and say to myself, well maybe he isn't all that bad, maybe all the evidence that shows that he is degrading our national security, destroying the economy, and getting bought off by lobbyists is wrong.
You may never change your opinion. But it is clear to other poeple reading this post, and to the informed minds of the country your wrong.
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You don't defeat facts by calling them opinions.. That fact that you don't see exagerations and deceptions doesn't mean they don't exist. Only a person willing to consider both sides will see the truth. You're not one of those poeple. You can argue all day, "i'm entitled to my opinion too.\," but that proves very little. The bottom line is, Bush support can't stand up to criticism. Time and time again I've seen Bush supporters run from the arguments, or try to reframe the debate. You have yet to dispute one claim I've made against your candidate. Your only argument is "I'm allowed to have opinions too! and if my opinions can be wrong so can yours." Then you'll do what your candidate does himself. When faced with an argument you just can't win, pick off one line that you can counter and attack that while ignoring the stronger points. I've put forward plenty of strong points. I gave links to even stronger arguements. Where is your support? Where are logical arguments supporting Bush. I have yet to hear one from anybody, and I would like to. If only so I can rest at nite and say to myself, well maybe he isn't all that bad, maybe all the evidence that shows that he is degrading our national security, destroying the economy, and getting bought off by lobbyists is wrong.
You may never change your opinion. But it is clear to other poeple reading this post, and to the informed minds of the country your wrong.
Truth is being delivered here! :cheers:
On November 2nd, VOTE FOR KERRY!
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Whatever you say, man. Just don't feel too upset if Kerry loses, you seem to have a lot invested in 'the truth'.
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Whatever you say, man. Just don't feel too upset if Kerry loses, you seem to have a lot invested in 'the truth'.
Same to you man... We'll see what happens. :cheers:
VOTE FOR KERRY!
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Example 3: Cheney saying to Edwards "I never met you in person until today" Except he was caught on video with Edwards.
If they met before how come Edwards didn't call him out on it? He had the chance to respond and all he did with just name things Cheney voted for or against (Meals On Wheels for seniors, etc.).
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^also they met at a prayer breakfast.. i dont even klnow wat that is.. but the truth is.. edwards is almost never present at the senate
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^^ no actually the truth is Edwards was almost never present during the senate during the past year while he was campaigning. The same is true of Kerry. The reason being. Most times Senate votes are not crucial. For example. Sometimes you know a bill is going to win by a huge margin and your vote won't really effect the outcome. Kerry/Edwards missed a lot of votes this year because they were campaigning, and because a lot of votes just didn't matter. Again Bush manipulates the info to make them look like uncaring assholes. Kerry/Edwards showed up to vote on a few important, closely contested issues, and cast their votes.
Just like in NYS for the avg. joe u already know Kerry is going to win NYS. So your vote really doesn't matter, and no one claims your a bad person if you don't show up on Nov. 2.
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Example 3: Cheney saying to Edwards "I never met you in person until today" Except he was caught on video with Edwards.
If they met before how come Edwards didn't call him out on it? He had the chance to respond and all he did with just name things Cheney voted for or against (Meals On Wheels for seniors, etc.).
Edwards answered that question a at later date. His response was a long the lines of. "Cheney wanted the debate to get sidetracked on issues that just weren't important. I was surpised when he said it, but I had my mind on debating other issues" You can watch the video of Cheney and Edwards together. If you don't bleieve me let me know and I'll post it.
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^^ no actually the truth is Edwards was almost never present during the senate during the past year while he was campaigning. The same is true of Kerry. The reason being. Most times Senate votes are not crucial. For example. Sometimes you know a bill is going to win by a huge margin and your vote won't really effect the outcome. Kerry/Edwards missed a lot of votes this year because they were campaigning, and because a lot of votes just didn't matter. Again Bush manipulates the info to make them look like uncaring assholes. Kerry/Edwards showed up to vote on a few important, closely contested issues, and cast their votes.
Just like in NYS for the avg. joe u already know Kerry is going to win NYS. So your vote really doesn't matter, and no one claims your a bad person if you don't show up on Nov. 2.
Good analogy... reasonable explanation. Bush and Cheney will do anything to avoid debating the truth and real issues.
Bush & Cheney need to "go fuck themselves!" :banana_dss: <----- Cheney rippin' Bush a new one
VOTE FOR KERRY/EDWARDS!
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^^ no actually the truth is Edwards was almost never present during the senate during the past year while he was campaigning. The same is true of Kerry. The reason being. Most times Senate votes are not crucial. For example. Sometimes you know a bill is going to win by a huge margin and your vote won't really effect the outcome. Kerry/Edwards missed a lot of votes this year because they were campaigning, and because a lot of votes just didn't matter. Again Bush manipulates the info to make them look like uncaring assholes. Kerry/Edwards showed up to vote on a few important, closely contested issues, and cast their votes.
Just like in NYS for the avg. joe u already know Kerry is going to win NYS. So your vote really doesn't matter, and no one claims your a bad person if you don't show up on Nov. 2.
I don't know, I guess I just have this crazy idea that senators should VOTE IN THE SENATE. You're making an excuse for them not doing their jobs.
Actually the idea of "well my vote won't matter anyways so why vote?" is great! Everyone should think like that.
Edwards answered that question a at later date. His response was a long the lines of. "Cheney wanted the debate to get sidetracked on issues that just weren't important. I was surpised when he said it, but I had my mind on debating other issues" You can watch the video of Cheney and Edwards together. If you don't bleieve me let me know and I'll post it.
Answered at a later date? He probably saw the video after and saw that he did meet Cheney. He forgot just like Cheney I guess.
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It is not unreasonble considering every senator republican or democrat miss the majority of their votes the year they run for President. They all understand that the system depends on them showing up to vote, but they all also understand that the system is not going to break down because one senator is going to be extra busy for one year.
If they weren't allowed to be absent from the Senate they wouldn't be able to run. How can you campaign if you can't leave washington? How many priorities is Bush putting off while he was campaigning? To be honest I don't criticize him for that because it is silly. The race for the whitehouse is important to both parties. Bush obviously is not 'running the country' while he is on the campaign trail, and I believe we did elect him to run the country, not to campaign. But our system requires Bush to campaign. Its not held against him nor should it be. By the same token, republicans should be fair and consistent when they apply their arguments to their opponents.
I believe I said earlier, Bush supporters use the same tactics Bush used himself. When presented with overwhemling evidence countering their opinions they find an inconsequential issue to attack in an attempt to reframe the debate. This post WAS NOT about Edward's Senate record. It was about the arguements I brought up in my initial post. Those arguements are yet to be countered and I don't believe they ever will be. But it doesn't matter if stubborn Bush supporters don't change their mind. The people who can think, see evidence, and change their opinions. Meanwhile bush continues to try to change the evidence so he can keep his opinions in tact.
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props to you Ant.. you give out well written, well structured, caring elaborate arguments without insulting all the time, that's something that hardly happens anywhere.
good to have you here to make it happen here.
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^^ no actually the truth is Edwards was almost never present during the senate during the past year while he was campaigning. The same is true of Kerry. The reason being. Most times Senate votes are not crucial. For example. Sometimes you know a bill is going to win by a huge margin and your vote won't really effect the outcome. Kerry/Edwards missed a lot of votes this year because they were campaigning, and because a lot of votes just didn't matter. Again Bush manipulates the info to make them look like uncaring assholes. Kerry/Edwards showed up to vote on a few important, closely contested issues, and cast their votes.
Just like in NYS for the avg. joe u already know Kerry is going to win NYS. So your vote really doesn't matter, and no one claims your a bad person if you don't show up on Nov. 2.
Man, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm from North Carolina, Edwards is one of my senators. He's frequently been absent since the beginning of his term, and he's never, ever caught dead in North Carolina. He doesn't even live here in the 'off' season. Nice try, but you're wrong. The man never showed up for our state.
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props to you Ant.. you give out well written, well structured, caring elaborate arguments without insulting all the time, that's something that hardly happens anywhere.
good to have you here to make it happen here.
This is well said and I agree. Props Ant. Keep doin' it! :)
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^^ no actually the truth is Edwards was almost never present during the senate during the past year while he was campaigning. The same is true of Kerry. The reason being. Most times Senate votes are not crucial. For example. Sometimes you know a bill is going to win by a huge margin and your vote won't really effect the outcome. Kerry/Edwards missed a lot of votes this year because they were campaigning, and because a lot of votes just didn't matter. Again Bush manipulates the info to make them look like uncaring assholes. Kerry/Edwards showed up to vote on a few important, closely contested issues, and cast their votes.
Just like in NYS for the avg. joe u already know Kerry is going to win NYS. So your vote really doesn't matter, and no one claims your a bad person if you don't show up on Nov. 2.
Man, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm from North Carolina, Edwards is one of my senators. He's frequently been absent since the beginning of his term, and he's never, ever caught dead in North Carolina. He doesn't even live here in the 'off' season. Nice try, but you're wrong. The man never showed up for our state.
Like I've already said, and I'll say it again. This post was not about Edwards senate record. I honestly am not all that informed on that topic so I'm not going to debate about it. But I clearly predicted what you would do about four posts ago, and you did it anyways. I said you'd find a weak inconsequential arguement and try and reframe the debate. Bottomline is my initial post has never been refuted.
Want another reason not to vote Bush. Add this one to the list.
http://video.buzzflash.com/04/10/Bushs_Big_Joke.wmv
Click the link for a short video.
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^^ no actually the truth is Edwards was almost never present during the senate during the past year while he was campaigning. The same is true of Kerry. The reason being. Most times Senate votes are not crucial. For example. Sometimes you know a bill is going to win by a huge margin and your vote won't really effect the outcome. Kerry/Edwards missed a lot of votes this year because they were campaigning, and because a lot of votes just didn't matter. Again Bush manipulates the info to make them look like uncaring assholes. Kerry/Edwards showed up to vote on a few important, closely contested issues, and cast their votes.
Just like in NYS for the avg. joe u already know Kerry is going to win NYS. So your vote really doesn't matter, and no one claims your a bad person if you don't show up on Nov. 2.
Man, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm from North Carolina, Edwards is one of my senators. He's frequently been absent since the beginning of his term, and he's never, ever caught dead in North Carolina. He doesn't even live here in the 'off' season. Nice try, but you're wrong. The man never showed up for our state.
Here is an article by the Associated Press, written in 2003 and featured in a journal from your state of North Carolina, that talks about Edwards attendance record. Explains how prior to becoming a candidate, his attendance record was at 95%! Also explains that even though he is allowed to miss Senate meetings while campaigning, he still makes it back to vote in items that are important for his state.
http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ%2FMGArticle%2FWSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031770817111
Cheney is the senate prez. Here you will find who acted as senate prez during the last 4 years (current up to two weeks ago, 10.5.04) when Cheney's ass wasn't there: http://www.mydd.com/story/2004/10/6/132551/259
... and before you knock the site as being biased, check the source... The Congressional Record! (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/crecord/index.html)
Mr. Cheney can go fuck himself with his bullshit lies!
VOTE FOR KERRY/EDWARDS ON NOVEMBER 2ND!
(http://www.johnkerry.com/feeds/media/88x31.gif)
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^^ no actually the truth is Edwards was almost never present during the senate during the past year while he was campaigning. The same is true of Kerry. The reason being. Most times Senate votes are not crucial. For example. Sometimes you know a bill is going to win by a huge margin and your vote won't really effect the outcome. Kerry/Edwards missed a lot of votes this year because they were campaigning, and because a lot of votes just didn't matter. Again Bush manipulates the info to make them look like uncaring assholes. Kerry/Edwards showed up to vote on a few important, closely contested issues, and cast their votes.
Just like in NYS for the avg. joe u already know Kerry is going to win NYS. So your vote really doesn't matter, and no one claims your a bad person if you don't show up on Nov. 2.
Man, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm from North Carolina, Edwards is one of my senators. He's frequently been absent since the beginning of his term, and he's never, ever caught dead in North Carolina. He doesn't even live here in the 'off' season. Nice try, but you're wrong. The man never showed up for our state.
Here is an article by the Associated Press, written in 2003 and featured in a journal from your state of North Carolina, that talks about Edwards attendance record. Explains how prior to becoming a candidate, his attendance record was at 95%! Also explains that even though he is allowed to miss Senate meetings while campaigning, he still makes it back to vote in items that are important for his state.
http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ%2FMGArticle%2FWSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031770817111
Cheney is the senate prez. Here you will find who acted as senate prez during the last 4 years (current up to two weeks ago, 10.5.04) when Cheney's ass wasn't there: http://www.mydd.com/story/2004/10/6/132551/259
... and before you knock the site as being biased, check the source... The Congressional Record! (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/crecord/index.html)
Mr. Cheney can go fuck himself with his bullshit lies!
VOTE FOR KERRY/EDWARDS ON NOVEMBER 2ND!
(http://www.johnkerry.com/feeds/media/88x31.gif)
Thanks for doing the fact finding for me. I didn't have the desire to go research this one.
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my buddy (who lives here in canada)...got a voting thing from america asking to send in his vote..becuase he was born in america (same as his parents)...he's voting for Bush and i asked why?..he said "its my way of saying 'fuck the world and america!'"
lol