West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Don Rizzle on July 29, 2005, 11:20:19 AM
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how would they like it if china started supporting the independence movement in hawaii? america has occupied the hawaii kingdom for over a hundred years isn't it time they gave it up?
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how would they like it if china started supporting the independence movement in hawaii? america has occupied the hawaii kingdom for over a hundred years isn't it time they gave it up?
My god you're a fucking moron...
Did you really just compare Taiwan to Hawaii?!
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
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excuse me, like 7even said, this is a train of thought forum, not train of nonsense. you should voice your dumb ass little side comments in the free post I created. Leave this forum for valid arguments and philosophies.
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Hawaiian Independence?
Hawaiian Independence? How many states are there in the American Union? It is 50 of course. But some will try to claim there are only 49!
How? They misread history by claiming Hawaii is not really an American state. The root of this confusion has to do with how Hawaii was legally acquired by the USA. In 1898, the Republic of Hawaii gave sovereignty of the islands to the United States. As the internationally recognized government of the islands, it was entitled to do this. At that moment, Hawaii became an American possession under international law.
Was this legal? The Hawaiian Revolution of 1893 overthrew the monarchy of Hawaii. Was this legal under prior Hawaiian Law? Of course not. All revolts are illegal under the laws of the nations who have to deal with them. The Cuban Revolution was illegal according to Fulgencio Batista. The Russian Revolution of 1917 was illegal according to the Czar of Russia as well. However, do we recognize the legal rights of the current Cuban government? Do we acknowledge that the Russian revolutionaries had the right to vote away the sovereignty of the Russian state and give it to the Soviet Union? We all do. This is the same as the legal status of Hawaii. The rebels of 1893 in Hawaii won and their actions as a government are just as legal under international law as the actions of those of the current Cuban regime.
Deny this fact and your denying any current legal internationally recognized state that has it origins in any revolution or coup! This includes the USA, France, the United Kingdom, etc. The fact that a single American gunboat assisted in the Hawaiian Revolution of 1893 does not change this. The Soviets aided Castro and the French helped the Americans at Yorktown in the American Revolution as well. The resulting governments are still internationally recognized.
Further, Hawaiian citizens voted to join the USA as a state. And the United Nations recognized the vote! The vote was overwhelming as it was 8-1 in favor of statehood.
Hawaiian separatists deny this vote based on two points. One, the vote allowed American military personnel stationed in Hawaii to vote. If the vote had been close, this would be a valid point. However, if you take away the votes of the military, the result would have been the same. Hawaiians voted overwhelmingly in favor of statehood. The military vote does not change the final result.
The second point is that the vote is illegal under UN rules as there was no choice for independence on the ballot. However, the UN certified this vote by removing Hawaii from the list of non self-governing territories. As this was a requirement of the UN, the UN had the legal right to interpret the vote. Hawaii was deemed to be a part of the USA by the international community by this action of the UN.
You might think a referee is wrong in a football game, but despite a bad call, the results of the game are still upheld later. This is the case of Hawaii and the UN. Maybe it was the wrong decision (and the size of the Hawaiian vote indicates it was not), but the results are still binding. Hawaii = USA and the world agreed.
All the rest of the stuff that comes from these Hawaiian Independence sites is based on the flawed logic that Hawaii is currently undergoing occupation by the USA and that the Kingdom of Hawaii still legally exists! This logic then leads these sites to argue that Hawaii should be allowed to secede from the USA (or in their words restored) without a vote of the people of Hawaii. Further, any one without the correct DNA (the majority of Hawaiians!) would be denied a vote as only Hawaiians with ancestors who were citizens under the Hawaiian Kingdom would be allowed to vote in the new government. That is a cause that is assured to go nowhere. Can you really see world opinion swinging in favor of the disenfranchisement of the majority of Hawaiian citizens? Grandfather clauses are so post-Civil War American South...
The US Congress apologized for any past injustice in Hawaii in 1993. This was a political move to shore up support amongst Democratic voters. It may have helped in Hawaii but the Democrats lost control of both houses of Congress in the 1994 election anyway. This resolution has no legal force of law and is merely a PR act equivalent to the state of New Jersey declaring April 4th State Cherry Pie Day. Yet, the separatists always point to it as some great proof that Hawaii is not American...
The final argument is this. If the USA does not legally own Hawaii, why haven't the majority of people heard of this before? If the Hawaiian vote of 1959 was interpreted illegally by the UN, why didn't the Soviet Union veto it? They were pretty good at doing their best at making the USA look bad. Why haven't current American antagonists made an issue of this? China hasn't even when they are critiqued about Tibet. Cuba, Iran, North Korea are silent on this point. If Hawaii is not American and there was any legal case internationally to be made of this, don't you think the UN, the World Court, and the international media would be all over this? The deafening silence you hear tells you exactly what the world community believes about Hawaii and the USA.
This issue will probably go away in another century or so. Nature being what it is most Hawaiians will eventually have DNA from both the original Hawaiians and the "occupiers" by then. (You don't hear claims now from Saxons complaining about the injustice inflected on them by the Normans in 1066 do you?) It would be pretty dead now if it were not for the Internet and the ability of every fringe group to have their message heard on the Web. As it is, it will probably provide another generation or two of radicals the opportunity to confuse the public and be paid speakers on the university anti-American circuit.
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^^^
I think that pretty much summed it up.
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further more, the vote the people of hawaii want to withdraw from the US would be like gathering all the native americans in new york and have them vote to see if new york should with draw from the US... it's absurd
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What.... the..... fuck....
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my point is you got these islands like peuto rico too, if another country started meddleing with them america would make sure they gave them hell.
china is just doing the same if you start fucking with their territory you will feel their wrath
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The difference is that China is a repressive and oppressive government that gives its citizens no freedoms and liberties. In contrast, the US is an open and free democracy.
The people in Tawain just want freedom and democracy, which is why the US supports them.
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The difference is that China is a repressive and oppressive government that gives its citizens no freedoms and liberties. In contrast, the US is an open and free democracy.
The people in Tawain just want freedom and democracy, which is why the US supports them.
LOLLLLL... you never disappoint us
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my point is you got these islands like peuto rico too, if another country started meddleing with them america would make sure they gave them hell.
china is just doing the same if you start fucking with their territory you will feel their wrath
islands like puerto rica and guam, while not totally their own countries, do govern themselves
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No European male has the right to scoff at imperialistic nature like it's not part of him. Who the fuck are you to make a non sensical metaphor about some bullshit like hawaii being compared to china. If youre gonna be a skeptical asshole, make sure you know what you're talking about so you don't embarass yourself.
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why inh the fucki would hawaii do that
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^^^in 2001 they made a complaint to the UN security concil about the occupation
you've all missed the point i just tried to make you see it from chinas point of view which is legitimate, just like we would never give up northern ireland
we gave back hong kong in 1997 to china where they went from a democracy to communism its not been to bad for them really
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if you look at this out of the point of view from china, and for example hawaiii wants independence and USA forbids them and treatends them with militairy actions, and china would interfear, USA would be pissed 2.
I think that's what u mean right?
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so you don't think america wouldn't use its army to reassert itself if hawaii formally declared independence?
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I think they will. Because they will loose income from Hawaii then. And if china then would say "if USA invades Hawaii we will interfear" USA would react just like china is doing now.
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Let me get this straight.
If hawaii wanted independece, you think the us government would invade hawaii with our military to keep them a state?
actually forget it, im going to pretend this thread doesnt exist.
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how would they like it if china started supporting the independence movement in hawaii? america has occupied the hawaii kingdom for over a hundred years isn't it time they gave it up?
c0-sign
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how would they like it if china started supporting the independence movement in hawaii? america has occupied the hawaii kingdom for over a hundred years isn't it time they gave it up?
c0-sign
did you read the rest of the thread? if not that question was already answered