West Coast Connection Forum

Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Don Rizzle on October 14, 2005, 10:19:35 AM

Title: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on October 14, 2005, 10:19:35 AM
Arafat death probe 'inconclusive'
A Palestinian ministerial inquiry into the death of former leader Yasser Arafat has proved inconclusive, said Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei.
Mr Qurei said that the inquiry found that French and Palestinian doctors could not identify the disease that killed Mr Arafat.

The former Palestinian leader's death was not caused by germs, cancer, poisoning or Aids, said Mr Qurei.

Yasser Arafat died on 11 November 2004 at a French military hospital.

But Mr Qurei added that file on Yasser Arafat's death would not be closed as "there could be medical developments in the future that could determine the cause of his death."

Conflicting reports

Speculation on the cause of Mr Arafat's death has continued in the media with many Palestinians believing that he was poisoned by Israel.

The Israeli government has repeatedly denied any involvement in his death.

The Palestinian leader's wife, Suha, refused to allow an autopsy.

A report published by the New York Times newspaper last month said that Mr Arafat's medical records showed that he died from stroke that stemmed from an unknown condition.

But a book by two Israeli journalists claimed that Mr Arafat's death could have been the result of an infection, Aids or poisoning.







Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/middle_east/4335408.stm

i still reckon Israel was behind his death....
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: 7even on October 14, 2005, 10:28:49 AM
It is fucking obvious that Sharon poisoned him. He even said he was gonna assassinate Arafat shortly before he became sick. You gotta be a moron to not investigate into this shit. It's not even a question for me.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: makaveli11 on October 14, 2005, 12:17:39 PM
It is fucking obvious that Sharon poisoned him. He even said he was gonna assassinate Arafat shortly before he became sick. You gotta be a moron to not investigate into this shit. It's not even a question for me.
^yea I agree. I have very little doubts that arafat was assasinated.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on October 14, 2005, 02:25:09 PM
israel do some fucked up things man. has anyone seen the 'death in gazaa' documentary? basically it was shot a couple of years ago and these british journalists they were following around some children who lived in gazaa, unfortunatly it was cut short when the crew were leaving the a house of one of the children to go somewhere safer, there was an israeli APV outside but not there had been no activity all night (ie aggression on either side) they decided the best approach was to annonce they were leaving so the had a torch and pointed at a white flag they were waving and started to approach the vehicle stating they were british journalists and they were going to leave, a shot was fired they stood still thinking it was a warning shot, then like 13 seconds later another shot was fired which hit the cameraman james miller in the neck killing him instantly and all this was all caught on film by a local palestinian cameraman. israel has done fuck all about it, at first they denied it, then they said he was caught up in the cross fire with the palestinians (there wasn't any), the guilty soldeir was an israeli arab who admited to doing it but had changed his story 3 times! the israeli army has said he was operating in difficult conditions and acted appropriately and he has not even been disciplined!!!! how fucked up is that? if they let their soldiers kill a white flag waving british journalist with repercussion when the british governemnt is pressuring them for action, just think about how they act with ordinary palestinians who don't have the same political clout as we do.

one good thing did come of it one of the boys in the film who was 11 was working for the militants and wanted to be a matyr, but james miller had touch him so much he has changed his mind and stopped working for the militants and wants to be a cameraman now...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: africas seed on October 14, 2005, 11:33:22 PM
Sharon is a terrorist and a murderer
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: ARYC on October 15, 2005, 08:42:24 AM
" You gotta be a moron to not investigate into this shit. It's not even a question for me."

there was no serious investigation cause no1 gave a shit about the fossil at the time he died and they want to keep it that way no point in making him a martyr.
Plus if an investigation comes out saying "the Israelis did it" Israel and Palestine turn into a pool of blood ,and quite honestly the old bastard ain't worth it .

any1 heard the rumor that he was gay?
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 17, 2005, 01:25:51 AM
It is fucking obvious that Sharon poisoned him. He even said he was gonna assassinate Arafat shortly before he became sick. You gotta be a moron to not investigate into this shit. It's not even a question for me.


Arafat should've actually been dead long before if he hadn't been as sneaky as he was...You have to realise that his main purpose throughout the numerous peace treaties he'd been through( without any actual results ) was to legalize his terroristic agenda. Wether it was Oslo, Camp David or any other allegedly peace seeking advance he'd ostensibly make, all had a number of common denominators: There was an on going terroristic activity courtesy of numerous groups in the autonomy throughout each and every agreement, all agreements scored international justification and rationalization of terrorism(most of you people are byproducts of this) for the Palestinian authority, every agreement resulted in yet another vast shift of international funding under the flag of renovation of infrastructures(in reality none of the money had been used for this purpose), Arafat bailed out of every one of these agreements blaiming Israel in violation of the bargain terms with on going terroristic activity preceding his disclamation.

Hell, I would've been proud if it was true I suppose, the way all Jews around the world had been when Nazi war criminals were executed.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 17, 2005, 01:46:46 AM
Arafat was a fucktard, I'll give you that... but...

A supporter of the Israeli government has no room to talk about terrorism.... that's like Hitler supporters calling others anti-Semitic.

Israel >>> al-Qaeda
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 17, 2005, 03:22:02 AM
Arafat was a fucktard, I'll give you that... but...

A supporter of the Israeli government has no room to talk about terrorism.... that's like Hitler supporters calling others anti-Semitic.

Israel >>> al-Qaeda

Im not a supporter Im an Israeli citizen...Buses have exploded near my home and Kassam missiles had been launched on my former school and you tell me I shouldn't talk about terrorism? ...You're just going around spreading ungrounded slogans with nothing but speculations and quotes from anti Israeli propoganda articles to back them up...I'm gonna come up with a slogan now:

If you don't support Israel> You support Terrorism.....*and unlike yours this one had been tested*
 
and here is one more(and this one also contains correlation to the first one):

Funding the Palestinian authority=subsidizing terrorism.

One day the world will know the truth but it's gonna be too late, if spetember 11th wasn't a wake up call for you people I doubt anything will help you realize the threat our world is facing, it's not Israel's problem alone- it's global...Look at Al Qaeda,Look at Jihad and Hamas, look at Chechnia, look at Iraq, look at Iran, examine Syria...You people like to apply your double standard way too often for your own good, these are not separate problems, these are elements of the same problem. Certain power structures realized that there is a very efficient way to impose their ways on the world and you people play into their hands with your ignorance.What can I say- GOOD LUCK, hope it works out for ya.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on October 17, 2005, 03:27:27 AM
ok let me ask u this if gazaa was peaceful would israel have ever retreated?? would they have left lebonen?? israel has committed many atricities in the last 60 years until they make room for a viable palestinians state i shall sympathise with their cause.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 17, 2005, 04:25:53 AM
ok let me ask u this if gazaa was peaceful would israel have ever retreated?? would they have left lebonen?? israel has committed many atricities in the last 60 years until they make room for a viable palestinians state i shall sympathise with their cause.

Your question only showes how subdued you are to the Palestinian Propoganda.You claim that if Gaza had  been peacefull Israel would never pullout...Do you watch the news man?- Do you know that it's been some time now since Israel pulled out of Gaza and Gaza is far from peacefull(without having anything to do with Israel's absence or presence) and  may I remind you that prior to the pullout Abu Mazen sent the Fatah to enforce the truce on "certain" groups that weren't in agreement with the Palestinian government to prevent any obstruction of the agreement with Israel.
The settlers had lived there for many years under heavy fire and as you know they didn't want to leave, the pullout was part of Sharon's plan to conduct a permanent peace treaty but Hamas would have you believe that the pullout became possible only thanks to the so called resistance...How conveniet especially when the elections in the autonomy aren't distant. If it wasn't for  Sharon's disengagement plan settlers would still be living there, regardless of the threatning condtions.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on October 17, 2005, 06:58:32 AM
Quote
"We cannot hold onto Gaza forever. More than a million Palestinians live there and they double their number with each generation," he said.

"They live in uniquely crowded conditions in refugee camps, in poverty and despair, in hotbeds of rising hatred with no hope on the horizon."
-ariel sharon

ok so the povety, refugees etc. are a direct result of israeli actions, they demolished homes and  farms took the best land and just left palestinians to their fait and their continuing anger was was the reason for withdrawal, if they just though fuck it thats ok then israelis would still be there today.

the west bank is bigger and has way more settlers (and is expanding these settlements!), if sharon really wanted peace he'd give up the west bank and east jureselum and move seperation barrier within israeli territory until that happens your give live next to some very angry palestinians.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 17, 2005, 10:26:01 AM
Arafat was a fucktard, I'll give you that... but...

A supporter of the Israeli government has no room to talk about terrorism.... that's like Hitler supporters calling others anti-Semitic.

Israel >>> al-Qaeda

Im not a supporter Im an Israeli citizen...Buses have exploded near my home and Kassam missiles had been launched on my former school and you tell me I shouldn't talk about terrorism? ...You're just going around spreading ungrounded slogans with nothing but speculations and quotes from anti Israeli propoganda articles to back them up...I'm gonna come up with a slogan now:

If you don't support Israel> You support Terrorism.....*and unlike yours this one had been tested*
 
and here is one more(and this one also contains correlation to the first one):

Funding the Palestinian authority=subsidizing terrorism.

One day the world will know the truth but it's gonna be too late, if spetember 11th wasn't a wake up call for you people I doubt anything will help you realize the threat our world is facing, it's not Israel's problem alone- it's global...Look at Al Qaeda,Look at Jihad and Hamas, look at Chechnia, look at Iraq, look at Iran, examine Syria...You people like to apply your double standard way too often for your own good, these are not separate problems, these are elements of the same problem. Certain power structures realized that there is a very efficient way to impose their ways on the world and you people play into their hands with your ignorance.What can I say- GOOD LUCK, hope it works out for ya.

Propaganda? Our double standards? LOL you crack me up

Anyways... your country was founded on terrorism...

yeah Palestinians are blowing shit up, no denying that... but just because you guys are quick to consider that terrorism and your attacks counter-terrorism, doesn't mean it's true... they're not occupying your land, you're occupying theirs

Yeah look at al-Qaeda, Hamas, Iraq, Iran, etc... and look at what they're products of... (U.S., illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine, U.S., U.S.)

Let's just compare a few situations and since you find it difficult to grasp simple concepts, I'll go nice and slow for you...
- Soviets occupy Afghanistan... Soviets are the aggressors. (Mujahideen did the exact same shit as the "insurgents"/"terrorists")
- U.S. occupies Iraq... Iraqis are insurgents.
- Israel occupies Palestine... Palestinians are terrorists.

The people who decide to call a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence, are talking about propaganda... LOLLLL.. seriously it's funny listening to you people


Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 17, 2005, 10:31:19 AM
How many illegal settlements have Palestinians built on "your" land? How many of your homes have they bulldozed?

Let me guess... those things are just part of Palestinian propaganda, right?
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on October 17, 2005, 10:33:14 AM
another thing look at south africa, nelson mandela was a terrorist there now hes seen as hero the world over......
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: King Tech Quadafi on October 17, 2005, 10:33:50 AM
ha haha... palestinian propoganda lol
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 17, 2005, 12:22:59 PM
Arafat was a fucktard, I'll give you that... but...

A supporter of the Israeli government has no room to talk about terrorism.... that's like Hitler supporters calling others anti-Semitic.

Israel >>> al-Qaeda

Im not a supporter Im an Israeli citizen...Buses have exploded near my home and Kassam missiles had been launched on my former school and you tell me I shouldn't talk about terrorism? ...You're just going around spreading ungrounded slogans with nothing but speculations and quotes from anti Israeli propoganda articles to back them up...I'm gonna come up with a slogan now:

If you don't support Israel> You support Terrorism.....*and unlike yours this one had been tested*
 
and here is one more(and this one also contains correlation to the first one):

Funding the Palestinian authority=subsidizing terrorism.

One day the world will know the truth but it's gonna be too late, if spetember 11th wasn't a wake up call for you people I doubt anything will help you realize the threat our world is facing, it's not Israel's problem alone- it's global...Look at Al Qaeda,Look at Jihad and Hamas, look at Chechnia, look at Iraq, look at Iran, examine Syria...You people like to apply your double standard way too often for your own good, these are not separate problems, these are elements of the same problem. Certain power structures realized that there is a very efficient way to impose their ways on the world and you people play into their hands with your ignorance.What can I say- GOOD LUCK, hope it works out for ya.

Propaganda? Our double standards? LOL you crack me up

Anyways... your country was founded on terrorism...

yeah Palestinians are blowing shit up, no denying that... but just because you guys are quick to consider that terrorism and your attacks counter-terrorism, doesn't mean it's true... they're not occupying your land, you're occupying theirs

Yeah look at al-Qaeda, Hamas, Iraq, Iran, etc... and look at what they're products of... (U.S., illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine, U.S., U.S.)

Let's just compare a few situations and since you find it difficult to grasp simple concepts, I'll go nice and slow for you...
- Soviets occupy Afghanistan... Soviets are the aggressors. (Mujahideen did the exact same shit as the "insurgents"/"terrorists")
- U.S. occupies Iraq... Iraqis are insurgents.
- Israel occupies Palestine... Palestinians are terrorists.

The people who decide to call a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence, are talking about propaganda... LOLLLL.. seriously it's funny listening to you people




First of all terrorism is not something you can justefy based on a technicality....This is not about the definition of terrorism, I hope we all know how to define terrorism, the arguement is not about what classifies as terrorism or as counter terrorism- the debate is about right and wrong.

Unjustefiable Killing( Killing for anything other than instantaneous self protection or assassination of openly and knowingly active war criminals)=wrong

Anyone who had encouraged this^^ represents all that is wrong.

Now I might sound a little too incisive for some of you but the reallity is that Israel as a state and as an establishment had never-ever commited this crime,to say there were no accidents I simply can not, to say there wasn't occasional malpractice I also can not-for cases like these inquiries were conducted and people had been punished but one thing for sure: Israel had never formally called for the genocide of The Palestinian people....Now I ask you this- Can the other side say the same?

And that's all there is to it, the occupation claims are no longer valid gentlemen, They lost all credibility as soon as your former most eminent right winger Ariel Sharon decided to pullout of gaza in complete contradiction to his infamous ideologies.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on October 17, 2005, 12:59:55 PM
right like they can make a state out of gaza?? its only 40km by 5km its fucking tiny, its barely even a pullout

israel may not call for the genocide of palestinians but have killed way more civillians than any 'terrorists' have
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 17, 2005, 01:50:15 PM
And to think that about 50 years ago they thought Israel was too small to become a state....It's not about the size mate.
and as for those figures you're basing your srguement upon, can I have a link?
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on October 17, 2005, 02:18:19 PM
yea and look how it grew.....

Intifada toll Sept 2000 - Sept 2005 
The five years of the Palestinian intifada have cost more than 4,000 lives. Btselem, an Israeli human rights group, has been tracking casualty figures on both sides.
Most of the statistics cover the period from 29 September 2000 to 15 September 2005.

PALESTINIANS KILLED BY ISRAELIS*
3,218 killed by Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza including 657 aged under 18, 187 killed in extrajudicial executions and 296 (including at least 29 aged under 18) killed in the course of assassination operations.

56 killed by security forces in Israel
including one aged under 18

41 killed by Israeli citizens in the West Bank and Gaza
including at least three aged under 18

*There are no figures to show the proportion of Palestinians who were combatants and those who were civilians.


ISRAELIS KILLED BY PALESTINIANS

444 civilians killed in Israel
including 80 aged under 18

223 civilians killed in the West Bank and Gaza Strip
including 37 aged under 18

221 Israeli security forces killed in West Bank and Gaza

84 Israeli security forces killed in Israel

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4294502.stm
-----
Israeli soldiers reveal official “shoot to kill” policy towards Palestinian civilians
By Rick Kelly
15 September 2005
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/sep2005/isra-s15.shtml

A number of Israeli soldiers have provided statements to the Guardian newspaper in Britain confirming the existence of a military policy of inflicting indiscriminate murders and reprisals against the Palestinian people.

The testimonies, published September 6, provide a damning insight into the brutal realities of the Israeli occupation, and again highlight the criminal character of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s government.

The troops contacted the newspaper through a support group for former soldiers, Shovrim Shtika (Breaking the Silence), and asked to be identified only by their first names due to fear of prosecution and persecution. Despite the significance of the Guardian’s report, the international media has largely ignored the story.

One soldier named Assaf entered the Gaza town of Dir al Balah with his armoured unit in the summer of 2002 and was ordered to “fire at anything that moved”. He told the Guardian that the orders were, “‘Every person you see on the street, kill him.’ And we would just do it.” Assaf described how he shot dead a young unarmed Palestinian man who was attempting to get away from an Israeli tank.

“The reason why I am telling you this is that I want the army to think about what they are asking us to do, shooting unarmed people,” he explained. “I don’t think it’s legal.”

Another soldier, Moshe, told how he was ordered to set up ambushes in Jenin, a West Bank refugee camp, in May 2003. There was “pressure to get kills,” he related. The troops were also ordered to wait for any children or teenagers to climb onto Israeli military vehicles before killing them. In one incident Moshe witnessed, a boy he thought to be aged between 8 and 12 was killed by an Israeli sniper.

The soldier explained how there was a general culture of impunity within his unit, including with regard to the killing of Palestinian children. The attitude was, “so kids get killed,” he said. “For a soldier it means nothing. An officer can get a 100 or 200 shekel [$US22 or $US44] fine for such a thing.”

A number of troops described how the orders they received were issued with the explicit intent of inflicting collective punishment on the Palestinian people. In May 2004, Israeli forces launched an operation in southern Gaza that resulted in the expulsion of thousands of Palestinians from their homes, and the deaths of 50 Palestinians, up to half of whom were civilians (see: “Israel escalates war of terror in Gaza”).

Rafi, an officer in an elite unit connected to the air force, told how the entire mission was about revenge. “The commanders said kill as many people as possible,” he said.

Orders were also given to kill anyone seen on the rooftops of homes, irrespective of what they were doing or whether they were armed. Among the casualties were Asma Moghayyer, aged 16, and her brother Ahmed, 13, who were shot as they were collecting clothes from their rooftop washing line. Rafi described how his impression of the operation was “chaos” and the “indiscriminate use of force”. “Gaza was considered a playground for sharpshooters,” he said.

In other incidents, senior commanders covered up evidence of murder. Avi, a staff sergeant in the paratroopers, was serving in Hebron in October 2000, when one of his men shot Mansur Taha Ahmed, a 21-year-old unarmed Palestinian, in the back. Ahmed was married and had three children.

“We knew the man was crazy ... out of his mind,” Avi said, referring to the Israeli soldier who committed the shooting. Despite an Israeli video recording of the crime, the soldier was never prosecuted. “We keep our dirty laundry inside, so the company commander decided to silence the event,” Avi told the Guardian. “He made the [video] cassette vanish and the soldier had to do 35 days of chores ... after which he came back to the company.”


Further testimony

Other ex-soldiers spoke with Australian Broadcasting Corporation radio on September 5. Former platoon commander Yehuda Shaul described how he was ordered to fire grenades into the Palestinian Abu Sneineh residential neighbourhood in Hebron. “It’s not a game, it’s a grenade machine gun,” he said. “I did it every night for three... almost three months. Every night around 50 grenades inside a neighbourhood. That was my first experience in Hebron.”

Aharon Blemker served during Israel’s “Operation Defensive Shield” invasion of the West Bank three years ago. As well as explaining how snipers murdered unarmed civilians, the former staff sergeant told how soldiers engaged in petty theft. “After a while people start stealing things,” he said. “In the beginning it’s just souvenirs, it goes onto stealing cigarettes and then to stealing money. We never stopped to think about it. We never talked about is it wrong or not, we just did it, and people started after a while beating people up just for fun.”

The Israeli military has opened 17 separate investigations in response to the testimonies publicised by Breaking the Silence. Colonel Liron Libman, the chief military prosecutor, nevertheless sought to cast doubt on the evidence, claiming that initial enquiries found that some of the soldier’s statements were exaggerated and others reliant on hearsay. This assertion is contradicted by the fact that the incidents described by the dissenting troops have been corroborated by casualties recorded by human rights groups and the international media.

“Because of the nature of the situation, which we describe as armed conflict short of war,” Libman continued, “it is not possible to investigate the death of every Palestinian civilian.”

This callous statement is again indicative of the culture of impunity and lawlessness that has been promoted within the Israeli military, and more broadly within the Zionist state, towards the Palestinian people. While some of the military investigations may result in the prosecution of individual soldiers, such action will inevitably be aimed at scapegoating lower ranking troops, and obscuring the more far-reaching conclusions that must be drawn.

More than 3,200 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces since the beginning of the second intifada in September 2000; over half of these were civilians, and according to the Israeli peace group B’Tselem, 654 were minors. Any serious investigation into who bears responsibility for this terrible death toll would have to begin not with the Israeli soldiers involved, but with the Likud-Labour coalition government led by Sharon.

Sharon came to power promising a tough crackdown on the Palestinian people, following the eruption of the intifada sparked by his provocative visit to the Al Aqsa mosque. The Likud leader has based his entire political career on provocations and military repression in the territories under Israeli occupation, and his term in office has been marked by an unrelenting assault against the Palestinian people.

The abuses and crimes committed by Israeli troops on the ground are a direct consequence of the Sharon government’s policies of house demolitions, property seizures, assassination campaigns, mass arrests, repressive checkpoints and road closures, and settlement expansion in the Occupied Territories.

And while the Bush administration and Israel’s other international allies have celebrated the evacuation of the Zionist settlers from Gaza as representing a major step towards peace, Sharon’s “unilateral disengagement” manoeuvre has not in any way affected the bloody realities of Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory.

On August 24, an undercover Israeli unit entered the West Bank town of Tulkarm and killed five Palestinians, including three teenage boys. Military spokesman later insisted that all five were “terrorists” who had resisted arrest. On September 7, Haaretz published the results of a joint investigation it conducted with B’Tselem. The newspaper found that the three teenagers were not members of any militant organisation, nor was one of the older men. The other man killed had been active in Islamic Jihad, but had reportedly left the organisation, and even turned himself in to the Palestinian Authority and slept at police stations for protection.

A number of witnesses contradicted Israeli claims that other militants in the area opened fire and threw Molotov cocktails. The five men had been sitting around an outdoor table in a largely enclosed courtyard. Witnesses reported seeing the Israeli troops open fire on the men before giving them a chance to surrender, and that several victims were subsequently shot at close range by soldiers “confirming” their kill. The military has denied these claims, but announced that an investigation into the incident will be held.

Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 17, 2005, 08:10:20 PM
Arafat was a fucktard, I'll give you that... but...

A supporter of the Israeli government has no room to talk about terrorism.... that's like Hitler supporters calling others anti-Semitic.

Israel >>> al-Qaeda

Im not a supporter Im an Israeli citizen...Buses have exploded near my home and Kassam missiles had been launched on my former school and you tell me I shouldn't talk about terrorism? ...You're just going around spreading ungrounded slogans with nothing but speculations and quotes from anti Israeli propoganda articles to back them up...I'm gonna come up with a slogan now:

If you don't support Israel> You support Terrorism.....*and unlike yours this one had been tested*
 
and here is one more(and this one also contains correlation to the first one):

Funding the Palestinian authority=subsidizing terrorism.

One day the world will know the truth but it's gonna be too late, if spetember 11th wasn't a wake up call for you people I doubt anything will help you realize the threat our world is facing, it's not Israel's problem alone- it's global...Look at Al Qaeda,Look at Jihad and Hamas, look at Chechnia, look at Iraq, look at Iran, examine Syria...You people like to apply your double standard way too often for your own good, these are not separate problems, these are elements of the same problem. Certain power structures realized that there is a very efficient way to impose their ways on the world and you people play into their hands with your ignorance.What can I say- GOOD LUCK, hope it works out for ya.

Propaganda? Our double standards? LOL you crack me up

Anyways... your country was founded on terrorism...

yeah Palestinians are blowing shit up, no denying that... but just because you guys are quick to consider that terrorism and your attacks counter-terrorism, doesn't mean it's true... they're not occupying your land, you're occupying theirs

Yeah look at al-Qaeda, Hamas, Iraq, Iran, etc... and look at what they're products of... (U.S., illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine, U.S., U.S.)

Let's just compare a few situations and since you find it difficult to grasp simple concepts, I'll go nice and slow for you...
- Soviets occupy Afghanistan... Soviets are the aggressors. (Mujahideen did the exact same shit as the "insurgents"/"terrorists")
- U.S. occupies Iraq... Iraqis are insurgents.
- Israel occupies Palestine... Palestinians are terrorists.

The people who decide to call a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence, are talking about propaganda... LOLLLL.. seriously it's funny listening to you people




First of all terrorism is not something you can justefy based on a technicality....This is not about the definition of terrorism, I hope we all know how to define terrorism, the arguement is not about what classifies as terrorism or as counter terrorism- the debate is about right and wrong.

Even better... fuck definitions... just look at right and wrong... there is still an ILLEGAL occupation with ILLEGAL settlements in the West Bank, and the Palestinians have every right to drive out the occupation... self-determination. We won't even talk about how the state of Israel itself was established... what's taken is taken, but don't come with that right and wrong crap when you support a government that has over 60 UN resolutions against it...

Unjustefiable Killing( Killing for anything other than instantaneous self protection or assassination of openly and knowingly active war criminals)=wrong

Oh, you mean like bulldozing over peace activists.

Anyone who had encouraged this^^ represents all that is wrong.

Yeah bulldozing people is wrong, I agree... I wonder how you look at this... "she was in the way, it was an accident, etc"... all I can say is you're a fucking tool

Now I might sound a little too incisive for some of you but the reallity is that Israel as a state and as an establishment had never-ever commited this crime,to say there were no accidents I simply can not, to say there wasn't occasional malpractice I also can not-for cases like these inquiries were conducted and people had been punished but one thing for sure: Israel had never formally called for the genocide of The Palestinian people....Now I ask you this- Can the other side say the same?
Incisive? No. Full of shit? Yes.
Israel never committed this crime? LOL. You mean that the Israel government never bombed towns killing innocent women and children...? Collateral damage, right? And here you are talking about right and wrong.
Israel never formally called for the genocide... LOLLL NO SHIT! Are you that fucking retarded? Seriously, I don't even know what the fuck to say to this.... I feel like I'm talking to some retarded fruitcake with the -Stein suffix in his last name who thinks that just because he's living somewhere and has some Zionist broadcast feeding him his info, his word means more when the entire world knows what the fuck is going on.


And that's all there is to it, the occupation claims are no longer valid gentlemen, They lost all credibility as soon as your former most eminent right winger Ariel Sharon decided to pullout of gaza in complete contradiction to his infamous ideologies.
Occupation "claims"? LOLL ignoring the fact that these "claims" are still valid.... why the fuck do you call them "claims" when you know for damn well it's a fact.. ? What about the West Bank? Oh he contradicted his "kill all the Palestinians" ideology... wow you Israelis must be so mad. LOL
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 18, 2005, 02:22:23 AM
Arafat was a fucktard, I'll give you that... but...

A supporter of the Israeli government has no room to talk about terrorism.... that's like Hitler supporters calling others anti-Semitic.

Israel >>> al-Qaeda

Im not a supporter Im an Israeli citizen...Buses have exploded near my home and Kassam missiles had been launched on my former school and you tell me I shouldn't talk about terrorism? ...You're just going around spreading ungrounded slogans with nothing but speculations and quotes from anti Israeli propoganda articles to back them up...I'm gonna come up with a slogan now:

If you don't support Israel> You support Terrorism.....*and unlike yours this one had been tested*
 
and here is one more(and this one also contains correlation to the first one):

Funding the Palestinian authority=subsidizing terrorism.

One day the world will know the truth but it's gonna be too late, if spetember 11th wasn't a wake up call for you people I doubt anything will help you realize the threat our world is facing, it's not Israel's problem alone- it's global...Look at Al Qaeda,Look at Jihad and Hamas, look at Chechnia, look at Iraq, look at Iran, examine Syria...You people like to apply your double standard way too often for your own good, these are not separate problems, these are elements of the same problem. Certain power structures realized that there is a very efficient way to impose their ways on the world and you people play into their hands with your ignorance.What can I say- GOOD LUCK, hope it works out for ya.

Propaganda? Our double standards? LOL you crack me up

Anyways... your country was founded on terrorism...

yeah Palestinians are blowing shit up, no denying that... but just because you guys are quick to consider that terrorism and your attacks counter-terrorism, doesn't mean it's true... they're not occupying your land, you're occupying theirs

Yeah look at al-Qaeda, Hamas, Iraq, Iran, etc... and look at what they're products of... (U.S., illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine, U.S., U.S.)

Let's just compare a few situations and since you find it difficult to grasp simple concepts, I'll go nice and slow for you...
- Soviets occupy Afghanistan... Soviets are the aggressors. (Mujahideen did the exact same shit as the "insurgents"/"terrorists")
- U.S. occupies Iraq... Iraqis are insurgents.
- Israel occupies Palestine... Palestinians are terrorists.

The people who decide to call a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence, are talking about propaganda... LOLLLL.. seriously it's funny listening to you people




First of all terrorism is not something you can justefy based on a technicality....This is not about the definition of terrorism, I hope we all know how to define terrorism, the arguement is not about what classifies as terrorism or as counter terrorism- the debate is about right and wrong.

Even better... fuck definitions... just look at right and wrong... there is still an ILLEGAL occupation with ILLEGAL settlements in the West Bank, and the Palestinians have every right to drive out the occupation... self-determination. We won't even talk about how the state of Israel itself was established... what's taken is taken, but don't come with that right and wrong crap when you support a government that has over 60 UN resolutions against it...

Unjustefiable Killing( Killing for anything other than instantaneous self protection or assassination of openly and knowingly active war criminals)=wrong

Oh, you mean like bulldozing over peace activists.

Anyone who had encouraged this^^ represents all that is wrong.

Yeah bulldozing people is wrong, I agree... I wonder how you look at this... "she was in the way, it was an accident, etc"... all I can say is you're a fucking tool

Now I might sound a little too incisive for some of you but the reallity is that Israel as a state and as an establishment had never-ever commited this crime,to say there were no accidents I simply can not, to say there wasn't occasional malpractice I also can not-for cases like these inquiries were conducted and people had been punished but one thing for sure: Israel had never formally called for the genocide of The Palestinian people....Now I ask you this- Can the other side say the same?
Incisive? No. Full of shit? Yes.
Israel never committed this crime? LOL. You mean that the Israel government never bombed towns killing innocent women and children...? Collateral damage, right? And here you are talking about right and wrong.
Israel never formally called for the genocide... LOLLL NO SHIT! Are you that fucking retarded? Seriously, I don't even know what the fuck to say to this.... I feel like I'm talking to some retarded fruitcake with the -Stein suffix in his last name who thinks that just because he's living somewhere and has some Zionist broadcast feeding him his info, his word means more when the entire world knows what the fuck is going on.


And that's all there is to it, the occupation claims are no longer valid gentlemen, They lost all credibility as soon as your former most eminent right winger Ariel Sharon decided to pullout of gaza in complete contradiction to his infamous ideologies.
Occupation "claims"? LOLL ignoring the fact that these "claims" are still valid.... why the fuck do you call them "claims" when you know for damn well it's a fact.. ? What about the West Bank? Oh he contradicted his "kill all the Palestinians" ideology... wow you Israelis must be so mad. LOL

You keep spinning around your own tail man!Your statement is a complete tautology!It's as if you said nothing at all! I never said innocent people weren't killed, never denied this, what's the point of stating it again??
What I did say however was that Israel never commited such acts INTENTIONALLY-accidents may have occured and people may have died but sometimes to CATCH THE SNAKE you need to CUT THROUGH THE GRASS- A war is a war and those terrorists know exactly where to hide so even if they do get killed they take the entire building with them. If the Palestinian Authority was to disable these murderers within itself Israel would never have to do it but it seems like the Palestinian government gains something from these accidents and something very valuable at that for those who don't know- that is BETTER PRESS.The Palestinian Leadership knowes very well that Israel can't localize it's foiling operations to the extent innocents won't get hurt . They sacrifice the lives of their citizens intentionally for better P.R to contribute more to the demonization of Israel and to switch the public opinion in the world to their side for faster promotion of their interests and it seems to us like their succeeding.In the meantime missiles are being launched and terrorists are blowing up buses- here you have something malicious.
One more thing kid, what does a Stein suffix have to do anything with the issue?- You're starting to sound like some Nazi...When there's nothing more valid to say you resort to rasial remarks?-I'm disapointed.

Land that was conquered by Israel(after atacks that weren't initiated by Israel) and had been returned throughout the years didn't teach you anything yet?? Israel gave up Sinai once to found peace with Egypt,Israel started Oslo hoping for peace  , Israel withdrew from Lebanon for nothing in return- except for a better hope for peace- Edhud Barak was planing even further reaching steps untill Arafat decided to bail out of the Camp David agreement, Israel withdrew from Gaza>Israel has no territorial ambition whatsoever except for the basic condition of it's existence not being put in question. The so called occupation
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on October 18, 2005, 11:10:44 AM
the guilty soldeir was an israeli arab



Explains everything...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on October 18, 2005, 02:51:02 PM
doesn't explain why he was never disciplined for his unprovoked attack against a white flag waving british journalist, israeli army is fucked up man. why do u think they were so ancious to stop the jenin investigation after both the pm and his deputry had approved it...israeli army don't comply with international law
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 18, 2005, 03:51:56 PM
doesn't explain why he was never disciplined for his unprovoked attack against a white flag waving british journalist, israeli army is fucked up man. why do u think they were so ancious to stop the jenin investigation after both the pm and his deputry had approved it...israeli army don't comply with international law

Man, have u been a part of that army? How come you know so well what the IDF complies to?-I've served in the IDF for 3 years and I know what it stands for, it's rules and it's moral code and believe me when I tell you that your claim is preposterous . What you're saying is argumentative-you didn't witness the occurrence in first person, you don't know what the exact circumstances were, not even if there were fragments cought on tape. There's a great deal of coercion in the battle field, at times the presence of civilians in the battle field can be a great obstruction to the active forces, many times members of the press do not comply to basic safety regulations while chasing a story or a scoop, do you know why similar accidents are relatively rare with the Israeli press?- Because they are more experienced in field coverage, they know where it's safe to be at a given time, same goes for most of the reporters from the Arab world, somehow most of these accidents happen to Europeans.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 18, 2005, 05:24:00 PM
Arafat was a fucktard, I'll give you that... but...

A supporter of the Israeli government has no room to talk about terrorism.... that's like Hitler supporters calling others anti-Semitic.

Israel >>> al-Qaeda

Im not a supporter Im an Israeli citizen...Buses have exploded near my home and Kassam missiles had been launched on my former school and you tell me I shouldn't talk about terrorism? ...You're just going around spreading ungrounded slogans with nothing but speculations and quotes from anti Israeli propoganda articles to back them up...I'm gonna come up with a slogan now:

If you don't support Israel> You support Terrorism.....*and unlike yours this one had been tested*
 
and here is one more(and this one also contains correlation to the first one):

Funding the Palestinian authority=subsidizing terrorism.

One day the world will know the truth but it's gonna be too late, if spetember 11th wasn't a wake up call for you people I doubt anything will help you realize the threat our world is facing, it's not Israel's problem alone- it's global...Look at Al Qaeda,Look at Jihad and Hamas, look at Chechnia, look at Iraq, look at Iran, examine Syria...You people like to apply your double standard way too often for your own good, these are not separate problems, these are elements of the same problem. Certain power structures realized that there is a very efficient way to impose their ways on the world and you people play into their hands with your ignorance.What can I say- GOOD LUCK, hope it works out for ya.

Propaganda? Our double standards? LOL you crack me up

Anyways... your country was founded on terrorism...

yeah Palestinians are blowing shit up, no denying that... but just because you guys are quick to consider that terrorism and your attacks counter-terrorism, doesn't mean it's true... they're not occupying your land, you're occupying theirs

Yeah look at al-Qaeda, Hamas, Iraq, Iran, etc... and look at what they're products of... (U.S., illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine, U.S., U.S.)

Let's just compare a few situations and since you find it difficult to grasp simple concepts, I'll go nice and slow for you...
- Soviets occupy Afghanistan... Soviets are the aggressors. (Mujahideen did the exact same shit as the "insurgents"/"terrorists")
- U.S. occupies Iraq... Iraqis are insurgents.
- Israel occupies Palestine... Palestinians are terrorists.

The people who decide to call a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence, are talking about propaganda... LOLLLL.. seriously it's funny listening to you people




First of all terrorism is not something you can justefy based on a technicality....This is not about the definition of terrorism, I hope we all know how to define terrorism, the arguement is not about what classifies as terrorism or as counter terrorism- the debate is about right and wrong.

Even better... fuck definitions... just look at right and wrong... there is still an ILLEGAL occupation with ILLEGAL settlements in the West Bank, and the Palestinians have every right to drive out the occupation... self-determination. We won't even talk about how the state of Israel itself was established... what's taken is taken, but don't come with that right and wrong crap when you support a government that has over 60 UN resolutions against it...

Unjustefiable Killing( Killing for anything other than instantaneous self protection or assassination of openly and knowingly active war criminals)=wrong

Oh, you mean like bulldozing over peace activists.

Anyone who had encouraged this^^ represents all that is wrong.

Yeah bulldozing people is wrong, I agree... I wonder how you look at this... "she was in the way, it was an accident, etc"... all I can say is you're a fucking tool

Now I might sound a little too incisive for some of you but the reallity is that Israel as a state and as an establishment had never-ever commited this crime,to say there were no accidents I simply can not, to say there wasn't occasional malpractice I also can not-for cases like these inquiries were conducted and people had been punished but one thing for sure: Israel had never formally called for the genocide of The Palestinian people....Now I ask you this- Can the other side say the same?
Incisive? No. Full of shit? Yes.
Israel never committed this crime? LOL. You mean that the Israel government never bombed towns killing innocent women and children...? Collateral damage, right? And here you are talking about right and wrong.
Israel never formally called for the genocide... LOLLL NO SHIT! Are you that fucking retarded? Seriously, I don't even know what the fuck to say to this.... I feel like I'm talking to some retarded fruitcake with the -Stein suffix in his last name who thinks that just because he's living somewhere and has some Zionist broadcast feeding him his info, his word means more when the entire world knows what the fuck is going on.


And that's all there is to it, the occupation claims are no longer valid gentlemen, They lost all credibility as soon as your former most eminent right winger Ariel Sharon decided to pullout of gaza in complete contradiction to his infamous ideologies.
Occupation "claims"? LOLL ignoring the fact that these "claims" are still valid.... why the fuck do you call them "claims" when you know for damn well it's a fact.. ? What about the West Bank? Oh he contradicted his "kill all the Palestinians" ideology... wow you Israelis must be so mad. LOL

You keep spinning around your own tail man!Your statement is a complete tautology!It's as if you said nothing at all! I never said innocent people weren't killed, never denied this, what's the point of stating it again??
What I did say however was that Israel never commited such acts INTENTIONALLY-accidents may have occured and people may have died but sometimes to CATCH THE SNAKE you need to CUT THROUGH THE GRASS- A war is a war and those terrorists know exactly where to hide so even if they do get killed they take the entire building with them. If the Palestinian Authority was to disable these murderers within itself Israel would never have to do it but it seems like the Palestinian government gains something from these accidents and something very valuable at that for those who don't know- that is BETTER PRESS.The Palestinian Leadership knowes very well that Israel can't localize it's foiling operations to the extent innocents won't get hurt . They sacrifice the lives of their citizens intentionally for better P.R to contribute more to the demonization of Israel and to switch the public opinion in the world to their side for faster promotion of their interests and it seems to us like their succeeding.In the meantime missiles are being launched and terrorists are blowing up buses- here you have something malicious.
One more thing kid, what does a Stein suffix have to do anything with the issue?- You're starting to sound like some Nazi...When there's nothing more valid to say you resort to rasial remarks?-I'm disapointed.

Land that was conquered by Israel(after atacks that weren't initiated by Israel) and had been returned throughout the years didn't teach you anything yet?? Israel gave up Sinai once to found peace with Egypt,Israel started Oslo hoping for peace  , Israel withdrew from Lebanon for nothing in return- except for a better hope for peace- Edhud Barak was planing even further reaching steps untill Arafat decided to bail out of the Camp David agreement, Israel withdrew from Gaza>Israel has no territorial ambition whatsoever except for the basic condition of it's existence not being put in question. The so called occupation

Do you do the talking for Israeli leaders, and tell me what you think they believe? How the fuck are you going to tell me that the Israeli government never committed these acts intentionally when the leaders themselves admitted that they did? LOLLL

Israel has no territorial ambition? Again, are you telling me what you perceive... or are we gonna go by what the Israeli leaders themselves have said regarding this?

"So called occupation"...? LOLLL please tell me that you don't actually believe the West Bank is NOT being occupied by Israel?

I think you need to realize that history can't be erased, and that no matter what bullshit spin you try putting on these things... you can "think" what you want... but don't try to pass it off as reality when it's just your opinion... you can't refute facts with your opinions... "they didn't do it on purpose, they have no territorial ambitions, if this then that, if this then that"....

The problem isn't even Sharon or any of these other fucktards... it's the nature of Zionist ideology
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 19, 2005, 02:27:39 AM
Arafat was a fucktard, I'll give you that... but...

A supporter of the Israeli government has no room to talk about terrorism.... that's like Hitler supporters calling others anti-Semitic.

Israel >>> al-Qaeda

Im not a supporter Im an Israeli citizen...Buses have exploded near my home and Kassam missiles had been launched on my former school and you tell me I shouldn't talk about terrorism? ...You're just going around spreading ungrounded slogans with nothing but speculations and quotes from anti Israeli propoganda articles to back them up...I'm gonna come up with a slogan now:

If you don't support Israel> You support Terrorism.....*and unlike yours this one had been tested*
 
and here is one more(and this one also contains correlation to the first one):

Funding the Palestinian authority=subsidizing terrorism.

One day the world will know the truth but it's gonna be too late, if spetember 11th wasn't a wake up call for you people I doubt anything will help you realize the threat our world is facing, it's not Israel's problem alone- it's global...Look at Al Qaeda,Look at Jihad and Hamas, look at Chechnia, look at Iraq, look at Iran, examine Syria...You people like to apply your double standard way too often for your own good, these are not separate problems, these are elements of the same problem. Certain power structures realized that there is a very efficient way to impose their ways on the world and you people play into their hands with your ignorance.What can I say- GOOD LUCK, hope it works out for ya.

Propaganda? Our double standards? LOL you crack me up

Anyways... your country was founded on terrorism...

yeah Palestinians are blowing shit up, no denying that... but just because you guys are quick to consider that terrorism and your attacks counter-terrorism, doesn't mean it's true... they're not occupying your land, you're occupying theirs

Yeah look at al-Qaeda, Hamas, Iraq, Iran, etc... and look at what they're products of... (U.S., illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine, U.S., U.S.)

Let's just compare a few situations and since you find it difficult to grasp simple concepts, I'll go nice and slow for you...
- Soviets occupy Afghanistan... Soviets are the aggressors. (Mujahideen did the exact same shit as the "insurgents"/"terrorists")
- U.S. occupies Iraq... Iraqis are insurgents.
- Israel occupies Palestine... Palestinians are terrorists.

The people who decide to call a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence, are talking about propaganda... LOLLLL.. seriously it's funny listening to you people




First of all terrorism is not something you can justefy based on a technicality....This is not about the definition of terrorism, I hope we all know how to define terrorism, the arguement is not about what classifies as terrorism or as counter terrorism- the debate is about right and wrong.

Even better... fuck definitions... just look at right and wrong... there is still an ILLEGAL occupation with ILLEGAL settlements in the West Bank, and the Palestinians have every right to drive out the occupation... self-determination. We won't even talk about how the state of Israel itself was established... what's taken is taken, but don't come with that right and wrong crap when you support a government that has over 60 UN resolutions against it...

Unjustefiable Killing( Killing for anything other than instantaneous self protection or assassination of openly and knowingly active war criminals)=wrong

Oh, you mean like bulldozing over peace activists.

Anyone who had encouraged this^^ represents all that is wrong.

Yeah bulldozing people is wrong, I agree... I wonder how you look at this... "she was in the way, it was an accident, etc"... all I can say is you're a fucking tool

Now I might sound a little too incisive for some of you but the reallity is that Israel as a state and as an establishment had never-ever commited this crime,to say there were no accidents I simply can not, to say there wasn't occasional malpractice I also can not-for cases like these inquiries were conducted and people had been punished but one thing for sure: Israel had never formally called for the genocide of The Palestinian people....Now I ask you this- Can the other side say the same?
Incisive? No. Full of shit? Yes.
Israel never committed this crime? LOL. You mean that the Israel government never bombed towns killing innocent women and children...? Collateral damage, right? And here you are talking about right and wrong.
Israel never formally called for the genocide... LOLLL NO SHIT! Are you that fucking retarded? Seriously, I don't even know what the fuck to say to this.... I feel like I'm talking to some retarded fruitcake with the -Stein suffix in his last name who thinks that just because he's living somewhere and has some Zionist broadcast feeding him his info, his word means more when the entire world knows what the fuck is going on.


And that's all there is to it, the occupation claims are no longer valid gentlemen, They lost all credibility as soon as your former most eminent right winger Ariel Sharon decided to pullout of gaza in complete contradiction to his infamous ideologies.
Occupation "claims"? LOLL ignoring the fact that these "claims" are still valid.... why the fuck do you call them "claims" when you know for damn well it's a fact.. ? What about the West Bank? Oh he contradicted his "kill all the Palestinians" ideology... wow you Israelis must be so mad. LOL

You keep spinning around your own tail man!Your statement is a complete tautology!It's as if you said nothing at all! I never said innocent people weren't killed, never denied this, what's the point of stating it again??
What I did say however was that Israel never commited such acts INTENTIONALLY-accidents may have occured and people may have died but sometimes to CATCH THE SNAKE you need to CUT THROUGH THE GRASS- A war is a war and those terrorists know exactly where to hide so even if they do get killed they take the entire building with them. If the Palestinian Authority was to disable these murderers within itself Israel would never have to do it but it seems like the Palestinian government gains something from these accidents and something very valuable at that for those who don't know- that is BETTER PRESS.The Palestinian Leadership knowes very well that Israel can't localize it's foiling operations to the extent innocents won't get hurt . They sacrifice the lives of their citizens intentionally for better P.R to contribute more to the demonization of Israel and to switch the public opinion in the world to their side for faster promotion of their interests and it seems to us like their succeeding.In the meantime missiles are being launched and terrorists are blowing up buses- here you have something malicious.
One more thing kid, what does a Stein suffix have to do anything with the issue?- You're starting to sound like some Nazi...When there's nothing more valid to say you resort to rasial remarks?-I'm disapointed.

Land that was conquered by Israel(after atacks that weren't initiated by Israel) and had been returned throughout the years didn't teach you anything yet?? Israel gave up Sinai once to found peace with Egypt,Israel started Oslo hoping for peace  , Israel withdrew from Lebanon for nothing in return- except for a better hope for peace- Edhud Barak was planing even further reaching steps untill Arafat decided to bail out of the Camp David agreement, Israel withdrew from Gaza>Israel has no territorial ambition whatsoever except for the basic condition of it's existence not being put in question. The so called occupation

Do you do the talking for Israeli leaders, and tell me what you think they believe? How the fuck are you going to tell me that the Israeli government never committed these acts intentionally when the leaders themselves admitted that they did? LOLLL

Israel has no territorial ambition? Again, are you telling me what you perceive... or are we gonna go by what the Israeli leaders themselves have said regarding this?

"So called occupation"...? LOLLL please tell me that you don't actually believe the West Bank is NOT being occupied by Israel?

I think you need to realize that history can't be erased, and that no matter what bullshit spin you try putting on these things... you can "think" what you want... but don't try to pass it off as reality when it's just your opinion... you can't refute facts with your opinions... "they didn't do it on purpose, they have no territorial ambitions, if this then that, if this then that"....

The problem isn't even Sharon or any of these other fucktards... it's the nature of Zionist ideology


Zionism- Jewish  movement that has had as it's goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in (what was known as) Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew:"Eretz Yisrael"-The Land Of Israel).

^^^This is the nature of the Zionist ideology. If this is your or anyone's problem with Israel or with Jews there is nothing to argue about, you're simply against the existence of Israel.

*I wrote a few lines in response about you dubbing Israeli leaders with concepts they have never expressed and about leaders in democracies reflecting a consensus of the people-something that would mean you suggested that Israelis as a whole strive to annihilate Palestinian civilians- which is complete bullshit but then I noticed your closing argument and it suddenly hit me, people like you simply want Israel off the world's map.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on October 19, 2005, 03:59:27 AM
the problem with the ideoligy is that it blinds your concepts of right and wrong, you've already got a state with internationally recognised borders even the arab league said they would all recognise israel if you retreated to those borders arafrat said this too....
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 19, 2005, 05:41:00 AM
you've already got a state with internationally recognised borders even the arab league said they would all recognise israel if you retreated to those borders arafrat said this too....

Tell this to the Hamas and the Jihad leaders and while you're at it tell it to Nasralah and the Hizballah as well- More than once have they stated that their ultimate goal was to remove Israel from the map and frankly I believe them, after all they've done so much to prove their determination...We're not the ones blinded with hatred. About the Arab league now, YOU SAID IT, this is exactly why they are so supportive of actions against Israel. The Arab league, may I remind you, consists among others of those nations that at the time initiated the attacks against Israel, the infamous occupation you so very much like to mention is primarily their fault and is a direct result of their hostility toward Israel, their not so hidden agenda here is to regain what they have tried to conquer at the time and failed . Have you ever wondered how would the middle east look like if Israel were to loose some of the wars we've historically won?- How would it work out for the Palestinian people?....think about it, you think their in a bad situation now?-Have you heared about Black September?- Do you know how much their Muslim Brothers love them?. So yeah, we're living in a new age of political correctness where leaders gain international support in return for something as simple as proclamation of long term agendas, if the Arab league cared so much about the Palestinians' right for Self Determination why did they atempt to take over their territory?-lol please tell me they wanted to conquer the land to grant the Palestinians with a state!
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 19, 2005, 12:20:20 PM
Now you're making assumptions about what I think. The problem is Zionist ideology because in the definition you chose to post, it even states "the ANCIENT Jewish homeland".

Then YOU say that I want Israel off the world's map.... which is complete bullshit, but then again, that's expected from someone who blindly supports the Israeli regime and really has no argument except false accusations about what the other person believes.... if you want to know what I really think is that Israel should've never been created in the first place... especially not in the way that it was.

Ben Gurion himself has stated that: "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal: we have TAKEN THEIR COUNTRY. It is true God promised it to us, but how would that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

You also have to understand that people don't just let others come and take their land without resistance... the Zionists knew what they were getting into... so everytime you see a bus blow up, to them that's just a few people lost for a greater cause.

Next time don't assume to know what I believe... if you have no argument because you support a government that's killing thousands and thousands of innocent people, then just say so...

Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 19, 2005, 01:01:23 PM
if you want to know what I really think is that Israel should've never been created in the first place... especially not in the way that it was.

I believe my assumption wasn't as farfetched after all, especially when it wasn't an assumption but merely a conclusion of your words- a simplification. So thank you Jamal, for reinforcing my point.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J Bananas on October 19, 2005, 02:27:26 PM
you said probe.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on October 19, 2005, 05:25:06 PM
if you want to know what I really think is that Israel should've never been created in the first place... especially not in the way that it was.

I believe my assumption wasn't as farfetched after all, especially when it wasn't an assumption but merely a conclusion of your words- a simplification. So thank you Jamal, for reinforcing my point.
its my belief israel should have never been given palestine, they should have been given a part of germany but whats done is done and they should retreat to the recognised borders and end the occupation.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 19, 2005, 11:07:26 PM
if you want to know what I really think is that Israel should've never been created in the first place... especially not in the way that it was.

I believe my assumption wasn't as farfetched after all, especially when it wasn't an assumption but merely a conclusion of your words- a simplification. So thank you Jamal, for reinforcing my point.

LOL... you're pathetic. You made a conclusion based on what you perceived my words to mean... which is an assumption... which is fine, but AFTER I tell you exactly what I mean and what I believe... you still hold onto that because you know I'm right... LOL how did I reinforce your point, when I just told you that your assumption about me was wrong.... basically what this has come down to is you telling me that you know better than I do what I think or believe... LOLLLL just drop it chump... you're a lost cause... my work is done here... you're beneath my level... go argue with the Jomes and Rampants...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 20, 2005, 03:10:17 AM
if you want to know what I really think is that Israel should've never been created in the first place... especially not in the way that it was.

I believe my assumption wasn't as farfetched after all, especially when it wasn't an assumption but merely a conclusion of your words- a simplification. So thank you Jamal, for reinforcing my point.

LOL... you're pathetic. You made a conclusion based on what you perceived my words to mean... which is an assumption... which is fine, but AFTER I tell you exactly what I mean and what I believe... you still hold onto that because you know I'm right... LOL how did I reinforce your point, when I just told you that your assumption about me was wrong.... basically what this has come down to is you telling me that you know better than I do what I think or believe... LOLLLL just drop it chump... you're a lost cause... my work is done here... you're beneath my level... go argue with the Jomes and Rampants...

Well I guess this is the closest you get to admitting you're wrong, you know, by leading the debate off topic, ok I get that, although it seems like you can't even do that right- so you go and stumble on your own words-  being against Israel's existence to begin with=thinking it would be better if Israel didn't exist at all, so yea,just like the Arab league you adapt to the default option like a first class working girl, oh well, Israel exist's so you have to camouflage your agenda under a politicaly correct flag which is -"The Self Determination Right Of The Palestinians" (see my reply to Don Rizzle) although you don't qualify in anyway to be a spokesperson for the Arab world and the Palestinians in particular, trust me they've got the big guns there, rest your immature mind-those people could convince you that Israel is negotiating with UFOs,I guess you should know. Since you're just a byproduct of their propoganda-  I'll give you one thing- You would very much like for the Palestinian side to be the righteous one,right, so technically there is no comouflaging of agenda on your part since you're transparent.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on October 20, 2005, 10:12:53 AM
I think I Geezy speaks a lot better english than anyone I saw during my 1 month stay in Israel this summer...You're a very intelligent man, I'm glad we have at least one intelligent person putting in some work for our peeps in the "Train of Thought". I know I'm way too uninspired to even type up more than a sentence regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I mean, I used to, but that shit is nothin' but circles...PeACe
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on October 20, 2005, 10:13:30 AM
PS...That's gangsta how you've kept your sig the same for all these years...LOL@REL producing for your album.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 20, 2005, 02:27:11 PM
if you want to know what I really think is that Israel should've never been created in the first place... especially not in the way that it was.

I believe my assumption wasn't as farfetched after all, especially when it wasn't an assumption but merely a conclusion of your words- a simplification. So thank you Jamal, for reinforcing my point.

LOL... you're pathetic. You made a conclusion based on what you perceived my words to mean... which is an assumption... which is fine, but AFTER I tell you exactly what I mean and what I believe... you still hold onto that because you know I'm right... LOL how did I reinforce your point, when I just told you that your assumption about me was wrong.... basically what this has come down to is you telling me that you know better than I do what I think or believe... LOLLLL just drop it chump... you're a lost cause... my work is done here... you're beneath my level... go argue with the Jomes and Rampants...

Well I guess this is the closest you get to admitting you're wrong, you know, by leading the debate off topic, ok I get that, although it seems like you can't even do that right- so you go and stumble on your own words-  being against Israel's existence to begin with=thinking it would be better if Israel didn't exist at all, so yea,just like the Arab league you adapt to the default option like a first class working girl, oh well, Israel exist's so you have to camouflage your agenda under a politicaly correct flag which is -"The Self Determination Right Of The Palestinians" (see my reply to Don Rizzle) although you don't qualify in anyway to be a spokesperson for the Arab world and the Palestinians in particular, trust me they've got the big guns there, rest your immature mind-those people could convince you that Israel is negotiating with UFOs,I guess you should know. Since you're just a byproduct of their propoganda-  I'll give you one thing- You would very much like for the Palestinian side to be the righteous one,right, so technically there is no comouflaging of agenda on your part since you're transparent.

How did I lead the debate off topic when you're the one that ignored my entire post and simply stated that you still believe that your assumptions about me were correct... and all I did was respond to that.... LOLL so you go off topic, and I respond... and that means that I'm the one that went off topic... great logic you got.

I'm not putting anything under a politically correct flag... I've said it before and I'll say it again... Israel exists now, and there's nothing anybody can do about that... but do I think that the Zionists had the right to just come and take the land? No.... but the Jews living there today aren't at fault... they had nothing to do with what happened... they have homes and lives there now, and shouldn't be pushed off the land like the Palestinians were/are...

LOLL and when the fuck did I claim to be a spokesperson for the Arab world? You love pulling shit out of your ass... as a matter of fact, it was you speaking on behalf of the Israeli leaders telling me why YOU THINK they did what they did... I'm a byproduct of propaganda? I haven't even stated anything remotely close to being propaganda... I guess the barrier that's 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall really is a fence then... and only dumbasses who fall victim to propaganda would be stupid enough to actually believe it was a wall. LOLLL you're flip floppin like a schizophrenic John Kerry...  first you tell me that you don't think Israeli leaders did anything on purpose (you speaking on behalf of them), then you tell me what my views and beliefs are, then when I respond to that and inform you what it is I really believe, then you say I went off topic and tell me that I'm no spokesperson for the Arab world when it was you speaking on behalf of Zionist murderers and their motives...

Let me ask you 1 simple question... there is nothing subjective about this... If Israel wants to build a fence (since I'm a victim of propaganda I'd like to call it a wall since it's 30 times larger than the Berlin WALL)... but if Israel wants to build one for its protection, which it has the right to do.... why doesn't it build it on the Green Line...and instead decides to cut into Palestinian territory (bulldozing more homes, cutting down more of their trees knowing they depend on agriculture, etc)... why steal even more land? And is that justified? The International Court doesn't seem to think so, but then again... who the hell are they... I mean we got I Geezy saying it's okay... LOLL you guys are all the same


And NIK is right, this does just go in circles... the reason for that is that you can't or aren't willing to notice the flaws on the side you support... so being in denial you jump all over the place like a dog in the dark trying to find a way out...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 20, 2005, 03:42:58 PM
if you want to know what I really think is that Israel should've never been created in the first place... especially not in the way that it was.

I believe my assumption wasn't as farfetched after all, especially when it wasn't an assumption but merely a conclusion of your words- a simplification. So thank you Jamal, for reinforcing my point.

LOL... you're pathetic. You made a conclusion based on what you perceived my words to mean... which is an assumption... which is fine, but AFTER I tell you exactly what I mean and what I believe... you still hold onto that because you know I'm right... LOL how did I reinforce your point, when I just told you that your assumption about me was wrong.... basically what this has come down to is you telling me that you know better than I do what I think or believe... LOLLLL just drop it chump... you're a lost cause... my work is done here... you're beneath my level... go argue with the Jomes and Rampants...

Well I guess this is the closest you get to admitting you're wrong, you know, by leading the debate off topic, ok I get that, although it seems like you can't even do that right- so you go and stumble on your own words-  being against Israel's existence to begin with=thinking it would be better if Israel didn't exist at all, so yea,just like the Arab league you adapt to the default option like a first class working girl, oh well, Israel exist's so you have to camouflage your agenda under a politicaly correct flag which is -"The Self Determination Right Of The Palestinians" (see my reply to Don Rizzle) although you don't qualify in anyway to be a spokesperson for the Arab world and the Palestinians in particular, trust me they've got the big guns there, rest your immature mind-those people could convince you that Israel is negotiating with UFOs,I guess you should know. Since you're just a byproduct of their propoganda-  I'll give you one thing- You would very much like for the Palestinian side to be the righteous one,right, so technically there is no comouflaging of agenda on your part since you're transparent.

How did I lead the debate off topic when you're the one that ignored my entire post and simply stated that you still believe that your assumptions about me were correct... and all I did was respond to that.... LOLL so you go off topic, and I respond... and that means that I'm the one that went off topic... great logic you got.

I'm not putting anything under a politically correct flag... I've said it before and I'll say it again... Israel exists now, and there's nothing anybody can do about that... but do I think that the Zionists had the right to just come and take the land? No.... but the Jews living there today aren't at fault... they had nothing to do with what happened... they have homes and lives there now, and shouldn't be pushed off the land like the Palestinians were/are...

LOLL and when the fuck did I claim to be a spokesperson for the Arab world? You love pulling shit out of your ass... as a matter of fact, it was you speaking on behalf of the Israeli leaders telling me why YOU THINK they did what they did... I'm a byproduct of propaganda? I haven't even stated anything remotely close to being propaganda... I guess the barrier that's 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall really is a fence then... and only dumbasses who fall victim to propaganda would be stupid enough to actually believe it was a wall. LOLLL you're flip floppin like a schizophrenic John Kerry...  first you tell me that you don't think Israeli leaders did anything on purpose (you speaking on behalf of them), then you tell me what my views and beliefs are, then when I respond to that and inform you what it is I really believe, then you say I went off topic and tell me that I'm no spokesperson for the Arab world when it was you speaking on behalf of Zionist murderers and their motives...

Let me ask you 1 simple question... there is nothing subjective about this... If Israel wants to build a fence (since I'm a victim of propaganda I'd like to call it a wall since it's 30 times larger than the Berlin WALL)... but if Israel wants to build one for its protection, which it has the right to do.... why doesn't it build it on the Green Line...and instead decides to cut into Palestinian territory (bulldozing more homes, cutting down more of their trees knowing they depend on agriculture, etc)... why steal even more land? And is that justified? The International Court doesn't seem to think so, but then again... who the hell are they... I mean we got I Geezy saying it's okay... LOLL you guys are all the same


And NIK is right, this does just go in circles... the reason for that is that you can't or aren't willing to notice the flaws on the side you support... so being in denial you jump all over the place like a dog in the dark trying to find a way out...

Thanks for returning to the topic, good to know my last post didn't go unnoticed- I'll even overlook your sorry response to my last post ;). Let me answer your question now- I personaly am against the mere concept of this so called separation fence in the form in which it was presented to the public just like I was against the disengagement in the form in which it was presented, I don't think it will  be helpfull to either one of the sides....Understand one thing, my frustration with the conduct of the Palestinian side,while primary and prominent, is always accompanied with criticism toward Israel as well, I think Israel's, my, government should've come up with a number of better moves on it's way to a peace treaty, on it's part,everything from the timing to the execution is not quite to my liking, Israel has an enormous internal public debate, we're a democracy, as I have said already our leadership reflects the middle ground of this public debate, a consensus. We still have an unresolved problem with the population known as "Israeli Arabs" who are Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, who live within Israel's borders and who entirely support the Palestinian side (When I say entirely, I mean that a large percentage of the population is also in support of terrorist acts against Israel) with many incidents of cooperation and complicity with terrorists as well as initiation, moreover, this potentially explosive population layer is fairly represented in the Israeli Parliament( The Kneset) as it is customary to a democratic regime. You've mentioned that the fence shouldn't be cuting through Palestinian territory and I say- what's the purpose of it when we still have Potential terrorists within our own territory ready to kill as many civilians as Hamas and Jihad leaders will order them to, build it on neutral territory?- I DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD BUILD IT ANYWHERE.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 20, 2005, 04:02:57 PM
"Thanks for returning to the topic, good to know my last post didn't go unnoticed- I'll even overlook your sorry response to my last post"

Yeah, you went off-topic and I returned to it.... and you're right, your post didn't go unnoticed, only mine do  :)

Anyways, you've answered my question, and I agree that the wall should not be built.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 20, 2005, 04:14:30 PM
Yeah, you went off-topic and I returned to it....

lol...This seems to trouble you but to me "going off topic" was when you switched it from debating on the issue to my alleged misinterpretation of your anti-zionist statement...FYI
Zionism implies the creation of a Jewish state on the land on which Israel is today.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 20, 2005, 04:36:37 PM
Zionism implies the creation of a Jewish state on the land on which Israel is today.

We both know it's far more complex than that.... but let's say that this is all there was to it... what gives any group of people the right to go and kick people off a land to make it their own? My point is that things went wrong right from the start... shit has just been chaos since...

Anyways, I went to a lecture here at UCLA last night... it was by an organization called One Voice.. it's Palestinians and Israelis uniting to find a path towards peace... Jason Alexander (George on Seinfeld) was one of the members speaking... they have gone out to the streets of Israeli and Palestinian villages/towns/cities and a majority of the people they have talked to on both sides want peace ASAP... the problem is that the extremists on both sides have more control, and sadly are focused on more by our media... basically the moderates are kinda pushed out of the picture even though they are the majority.... the average citizen wants a solution but the extremists have their agendas to push and often times they're not really risking anything except lives other than their own...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 21, 2005, 03:14:21 AM
Zionism implies the creation of a Jewish state on the land on which Israel is today.

We both know it's far more complex than that.... but let's say that this is all there was to it... what gives any group of people the right to go and kick people off a land to make it their own? My point is that things went wrong right from the start... shit has just been chaos since...

Anyways, I went to a lecture here at UCLA last night... it was by an organization called One Voice.. it's Palestinians and Israelis uniting to find a path towards peace... Jason Alexander (George on Seinfeld) was one of the members speaking... they have gone out to the streets of Israeli and Palestinian villages/towns/cities and a majority of the people they have talked to on both sides want peace ASAP... the problem is that the extremists on both sides have more control, and sadly are focused on more by our media... basically the moderates are kinda pushed out of the picture even though they are the majority.... the average citizen wants a solution but the extremists have their agendas to push and often times they're not really risking anything except lives other than their own...

Often when the situation prior to the declaration of Israel is discussed people are often mislead. When Jews first started arriving to this land from Europe they've encountered the Turks, Jews that would come years later would encounter the Brits. It was always a mandate along with a percentage of seemingly native population that greeted the Jewish pioneers, which for the most part consisted of Arabs and a small percentage of native Jews. The native Arab population consisted for the most part of agriculturists and farmers. Those farmers whose assets were larger owned lands,plantations and meadows(owning land at the time of the mandate involved taxing and sometimes the land had been bought from the authorities themselves), those whose assets were smaller either worked for the Sheiks or stuck to the Beduin custom of wondering from place to place, at times they would wonder outside of Palestine meanwhile others would wonder into Palestine. These people never had a self determination agenda, they never intended to found their own national home, since they did not consider themselves a nation,it was a multi layered tribal community, furthermore, some of the tribes where utterly hostile toward one another- blood vengeance and pirating went back to the dawn of Islam, and they weren't strangers to these customs. When the first Jews arrived they came with one mission and one mission only- to found a Jewish National Home-Zionism, they have begun buying lands from Sheiks(who were eager to get rid of putrid, swampy land for relatively big prices) and to cultivate the land, many low asset farmers where employed by Jews during those times and since Jews had long term plans more of these farmers settled down-they had a permanent work place, big portions of the land that was bought were covered with swamps, malaria was harvesting the population, many died in agony, they started planting Eucalyptuses that were known to suck in swamps, after years of work the land blossomed.
The ones who opposed the founding of a Jewish state in Palestine the most throughout history weren't the Palestinians- Those were Syria and Egypt....their leaders dreamt to unite in a single state, bridging through Palestine. Israel's war of independence in 48 right after it's declaration was a common effort of the Arab nations to remove Israel but the seed of self determination was planted into the natives' collective conscience by the same Sheiks or their heirs (who once had assets in Palestine and sold them, who now wanted to regain their rejuvenated and improved land without having to pay.*see under "The right of return"* ) prior to the declaration of the Jewish state and there's even been an offer to create a binational state but the Sheiks who had  their puppet freedom fighters within Palestine maneuvered them to decline. The rest is history.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 21, 2005, 03:39:22 AM
That's a nice rosy story... you've got the broad picture down... but you're missing a lot of things. Once you can be honest with yourself... you'll realize that you have nothing to lose by telling the whole truth on what you know... instead of posting about historic facts and events which include Jewish terrorism and slaughter of Palestinians, I'm just going to stick to the point and show you that there's more to Zionism than just the establishment of a Jewish home... because that's the goal, yes, but the ideology entails more, and the means to justify that end isn't as rosy as you'd like to believe.... so instead of talking out of my ass, like you do, I'm just going to let the guys who were a part of this movement, and quite frankly, who know a lot more about it than you or I, do the talking....

What did Theodore Herzl state in the "Complete Diaries" (1895)?
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

How about Joseph Weitz of the Jewish Agencys Colonization Department (1940) which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine?
"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both parties together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left."

By the way, if you want a better understanding of the complexity Zionism entails, I suggest you read "The Iron Wall" by Vladimir Jabotinsky who was the founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud).... here's a couple quotes that will show you what I mean when I say that Zionism is more than just "a Jewish homeland"... it's an ideology that entails a lot more than that....

"Zionist colonization must either be terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, be continued and make progress only under the protection of a power independent of the native population - an iron wall, which will be in position to resist the pressure to the native population. This is, in total, our policy towards the Arabs..."

"If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE! Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force....it is important to be able to shoot-or else I am through with playing at colonialization."

As you can see... in order for the Zionists to achieve their goal, they have to do a lot of not so nice things...



Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 21, 2005, 06:45:01 AM
That's a nice rosy story... you've got the broad picture down... but you're missing a lot of things. Once you can be honest with yourself... you'll realize that you have nothing to lose by telling the whole truth on what you know... instead of posting about historic facts and events which include Jewish terrorism and slaughter of Palestinians, I'm just going to stick to the point and show you that there's more to Zionism than just the establishment of a Jewish home... because that's the goal, yes, but the ideology entails more, and the means to justify that end isn't as rosy as you'd like to believe.... so instead of talking out of my ass, like you do, I'm just going to let the guys who were a part of this movement, and quite frankly, who know a lot more about it than you or I, do the talking....

What did Theodore Herzl state in the "Complete Diaries" (1895)?
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

How about Joseph Weitz of the Jewish Agencys Colonization Department (1940) which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine?
"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both parties together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left."

By the way, if you want a better understanding of the complexity Zionism entails, I suggest you read "The Iron Wall" by Vladimir Jabotinsky who was the founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud).... here's a couple quotes that will show you what I mean when I say that Zionism is more than just "a Jewish homeland"... it's an ideology that entails a lot more than that....

"Zionist colonization must either be terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, be continued and make progress only under the protection of a power independent of the native population - an iron wall, which will be in position to resist the pressure to the native population. This is, in total, our policy towards the Arabs..."

"If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE! Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force....it is important to be able to shoot-or else I am through with playing at colonialization."

As you can see... in order for the Zionists to achieve their goal, they have to do a lot of not so nice things...

Your quotes from Herzel belong to a stream within Zionism which went later to become the foundation of today's Left Wing- it's primary agenda was to generate a segregation between the 2 nations, these are the people who first came up with the transfer idealogy and whose heirs much later came up with Oslo. These were speculations and soliloquies, Theodore Herzel was the author of a number of utopian ideas, he also contributed some of his ideas to the early Zionists but not many of his ideas were executed...As you know he originally predicted the creation of a Jewish state in Uganda, the idea of transfering the native population also didn't come true. In addition I will say this, Jabotinski a right wing precursor did not believe in segregation of the 2 nations and before the Palestinian side declined he was among the supporters of a binational state (which I have already mentioned) only when the Palestinian side began to rely on hostility(something he had foreseen), means needed to be taken(-He even proclaimed to the native population that the Jewish pioneers intended to found a Jewish state, based on Jewish majority, where the natives,the Palestinians, would receive equal rights).
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 21, 2005, 11:11:00 AM
That's a nice rosy story... you've got the broad picture down... but you're missing a lot of things. Once you can be honest with yourself... you'll realize that you have nothing to lose by telling the whole truth on what you know... instead of posting about historic facts and events which include Jewish terrorism and slaughter of Palestinians, I'm just going to stick to the point and show you that there's more to Zionism than just the establishment of a Jewish home... because that's the goal, yes, but the ideology entails more, and the means to justify that end isn't as rosy as you'd like to believe.... so instead of talking out of my ass, like you do, I'm just going to let the guys who were a part of this movement, and quite frankly, who know a lot more about it than you or I, do the talking....

What did Theodore Herzl state in the "Complete Diaries" (1895)?
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

How about Joseph Weitz of the Jewish Agencys Colonization Department (1940) which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine?
"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both parties together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left."

By the way, if you want a better understanding of the complexity Zionism entails, I suggest you read "The Iron Wall" by Vladimir Jabotinsky who was the founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud).... here's a couple quotes that will show you what I mean when I say that Zionism is more than just "a Jewish homeland"... it's an ideology that entails a lot more than that....

"Zionist colonization must either be terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, be continued and make progress only under the protection of a power independent of the native population - an iron wall, which will be in position to resist the pressure to the native population. This is, in total, our policy towards the Arabs..."

"If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE! Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force....it is important to be able to shoot-or else I am through with playing at colonialization."

As you can see... in order for the Zionists to achieve their goal, they have to do a lot of not so nice things...

Your quotes from Herzel belong to a stream within Zionism which went later to become the foundation of today's Left Wing- it's primary agenda was to generate a segregation between the 2 nations, these are the people who first came up with the transfer idealogy and whose heirs much later came up with Oslo. These were speculations and soliloquies, Theodore Herzel was the author of a number of utopian ideas, he also contributed some of his ideas to the early Zionists but not many of his ideas were executed...As you know he originally predicted the creation of a Jewish state in Uganda, the idea of transfering the native population also didn't come true. In addition I will say this, Jabotinski a right wing precursor did not believe in segregation of the 2 nations and before the Palestinian side declined he was among the supporters of a binational state (which I have already mentioned) only when the Palestinian side began to rely on hostility(something he had foreseen), means needed to be taken(-He even proclaimed to the native population that the Jewish pioneers intended to found a Jewish state, based on Jewish majority, where the natives,the Palestinians, would receive equal rights).

LOL @ your choice of words... "only when the Palestinian side began to rely on hostility"....

These were the ZIONISTS at the time when ZIONISM was established and put into effect.... these are THEIR words telling what their plans are and what must be done... what the fuck does it matter what else they predicted? Since we're on the topic of precursors... let's see what the precursor to all the propaganda you've fallen victim to is.... honestly, this one is actually funny....
"A LAND WITHOUT PEOPLE FOR A PEOPLE WITHOUT LAND"  LOL... Zionism justified itself based on this when there were hundreds of thousands of people living there and you mean to tell me there's nothing wrong with Zionist ideology.... Zionism relies on killing and removing a population of its land... Zionism = Terrorism, Oppression, etc.

Just listen to Ben Gurion... take his advice....

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. ... Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice."
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 21, 2005, 12:55:37 PM
That's a nice rosy story... you've got the broad picture down... but you're missing a lot of things. Once you can be honest with yourself... you'll realize that you have nothing to lose by telling the whole truth on what you know... instead of posting about historic facts and events which include Jewish terrorism and slaughter of Palestinians, I'm just going to stick to the point and show you that there's more to Zionism than just the establishment of a Jewish home... because that's the goal, yes, but the ideology entails more, and the means to justify that end isn't as rosy as you'd like to believe.... so instead of talking out of my ass, like you do, I'm just going to let the guys who were a part of this movement, and quite frankly, who know a lot more about it than you or I, do the talking....

What did Theodore Herzl state in the "Complete Diaries" (1895)?
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

How about Joseph Weitz of the Jewish Agencys Colonization Department (1940) which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine?
"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both parties together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left."

By the way, if you want a better understanding of the complexity Zionism entails, I suggest you read "The Iron Wall" by Vladimir Jabotinsky who was the founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud).... here's a couple quotes that will show you what I mean when I say that Zionism is more than just "a Jewish homeland"... it's an ideology that entails a lot more than that....

"Zionist colonization must either be terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, be continued and make progress only under the protection of a power independent of the native population - an iron wall, which will be in position to resist the pressure to the native population. This is, in total, our policy towards the Arabs..."

"If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE! Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force....it is important to be able to shoot-or else I am through with playing at colonialization."

As you can see... in order for the Zionists to achieve their goal, they have to do a lot of not so nice things...

Your quotes from Herzel belong to a stream within Zionism which went later to become the foundation of today's Left Wing- it's primary agenda was to generate a segregation between the 2 nations, these are the people who first came up with the transfer idealogy and whose heirs much later came up with Oslo. These were speculations and soliloquies, Theodore Herzel was the author of a number of utopian ideas, he also contributed some of his ideas to the early Zionists but not many of his ideas were executed...As you know he originally predicted the creation of a Jewish state in Uganda, the idea of transfering the native population also didn't come true. In addition I will say this, Jabotinski a right wing precursor did not believe in segregation of the 2 nations and before the Palestinian side declined he was among the supporters of a binational state (which I have already mentioned) only when the Palestinian side began to rely on hostility(something he had foreseen), means needed to be taken(-He even proclaimed to the native population that the Jewish pioneers intended to found a Jewish state, based on Jewish majority, where the natives,the Palestinians, would receive equal rights).

LOL @ your choice of words... "only when the Palestinian side began to rely on hostility"....

These were the ZIONISTS at the time when ZIONISM was established and put into effect.... these are THEIR words telling what their plans are and what must be done... what the fuck does it matter what else they predicted? Since we're on the topic of precursors... let's see what the precursor to all the propaganda you've fallen victim to is.... honestly, this one is actually funny....
"A LAND WITHOUT PEOPLE FOR A PEOPLE WITHOUT LAND"  LOL... Zionism justified itself based on this when there were hundreds of thousands of people living there and you mean to tell me there's nothing wrong with Zionist ideology.... Zionism relies on killing and removing a population of its land... Zionism = Terrorism, Oppression, etc.

Just listen to Ben Gurion... take his advice....

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. ... Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice."


Your seem to have ignored my previous post entirely.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 21, 2005, 01:15:24 PM
Actually I addressed it with this:
"These were the ZIONISTS at the time when ZIONISM was established and put into effect.... these are THEIR words telling what their plans are and what must be done... what the fuck does it matter what else they predicted?"

You seem to have ignored my post though.  :)

Like I said... this was over a long time ago... you have nothing. It's like arguing with someone who supported Hitler and the Nazis... there's no way to defend it...  :)
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 21, 2005, 03:54:55 PM
Actually I addressed it with this:
"These were the ZIONISTS at the time when ZIONISM was established and put into effect.... these are THEIR words telling what their plans are and what must be done... what the fuck does it matter what else they predicted?"

You seem to have ignored my post though.  :)

Like I said... this was over a long time ago... you have nothing. It's like arguing with someone who supported Hitler and the Nazis... there's no way to defend it...  :)

Ok this is going to feel like wasting a post but the situation is asking for it. Man, the statements that you quoted weren't the ones to establish Zionism, the people you quoted were influenced by the idea of Zionism, they didn't invent it. They had different takes on how to manifest the idea, Jabotinski once dramatically left the Zionist Congress claiming that the congress was anything but Zionist, when it opposed him and his followers. What Im saying is that Zionism is an ideal, it's an agenda- Just like "Self Determination", and as an ideal it is defined the way I've stated before. I've also mentioned that Herzel was first and foremost a thinker, a utopian novelist, he liked to speculate with concepts and ideas so I mentioned his prediction to show that he often assumed things that were far from becoming reallity. The key leading to the understanding of factors that were responsible for triggering this seemingly perpetual feud is within my posts already and if you choose to close your eyes then so be it.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 21, 2005, 04:37:43 PM
Ok this is going to feel like wasting a post but the situation is asking for it. Man, the statements that you quoted weren't the ones to establish Zionism, the people you quoted were influenced by the idea of Zionism, they didn't invent it. They had different takes on how to manifest the idea, Jabotinski once dramatically left the Zionist Congress claiming that the congress was anything but Zionist, when it opposed him and his followers. What Im saying is that Zionism is an ideal, it's an agenda- Just like "Self Determination", and as an ideal it is defined the way I've stated before. I've also mentioned that Herzel was first and foremost a thinker, a utopian novelist, he liked to speculate with concepts and ideas so I mentioned his prediction to show that he often assumed things that were far from becoming reallity. The key leading to the understanding of factors that were responsible for triggering this seemingly perpetual feud is within my posts already and if you choose to close your eyes then so be it.

Ok now you're sounding retarded.... nobody INVENTED Zionism... but if you don't think that Theodor Herzl was one of the first, if not the founder, to lead the movement, then you don't know your shit... he planned the first Zionist Congress... he wrote Der Judenstaat in 1896... the word Zionism was coined in 1890... so what the fuck are you talking about? Don't talk out of your ass.

Yeah Zionism is an agenda... and I've shown you what that agenda includes... killing and removing a population off its land. There's no way you can deny that when the people who have carried out this "idea or agenda" as you call it... and have admitted that this is the only way to do it.

It seems like you don't even know what you're arguing here... and all you're able to say is "I'm sure I've addressed that somewhere in my posts, but you didn't see it".... when the fact of the matter is that your bullshit paragraphs don't mean anything.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 21, 2005, 04:40:06 PM
Zionism = Terrorism
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 22, 2005, 02:19:27 AM
How come you find the Zionist agenda to be foul and terroristic yet you do not find the Palestinian self determination as terroristic? They've openly used terrorism, plus they weren't even a nation untill they felt like they had to obstruct the creation of a Jewish state, I can't believe you simply choose to ignore this,
I mean this is your double standard again, you make all these airy claims about Zionism claiming to know so much more than I do about it when in reality it was diverse as a movement. If annihilation of Palestinians was even an option how come the local population was offered equal rights in this Jewish state?. The fact Theodore Herzel contributed some of his ideas to the early Zionists does not mean he was "Zionism" and these quotes of his you mentioned were idealogical foundation to the guys that later became our left wing, the ones who focused on the so called "returning land in exchange for peace" which is majorly flawed in my opinion.


p.s Zionism may have been formally coined in 1896, since the first congress was held in Bazzel in 1897 by Herzel, you got that right, but the idea itself travels back to the start of the Jewish diaspora and had also surfaced in the 16th and 17th centuries, and there would be no congress if it hadn't been a wide spread idea among Jews by that time.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 22, 2005, 02:38:31 AM
And one more thing.....If you read the post where I answered your question about the fence you will find something interesting- Palestinians did receive equal rights in this country- at least some! Palestinians who are Israeli citizens! A population that is playing the role of a Trojan Horse, I mean, do you need me to connect the dots for you? Please show me minimal signs of intelligence, will you? I'm saying that the answer is in my posts already?...lol....it is, you're just too damn blinded to see it.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on October 22, 2005, 04:59:42 AM
are israeli arabs really treated as equals? i think not....
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 22, 2005, 09:13:01 AM
They do have citizenship and representation in the Israeli parliament, how's that for potential terrorists?
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 22, 2005, 11:37:24 AM
How come you find the Zionist agenda to be foul and terroristic yet you do not find the Palestinian self determination as terroristic? They've openly used terrorism, plus they weren't even a nation untill they felt like they had to obstruct the creation of a Jewish state, I can't believe you simply choose to ignore this,
I mean this is your double standard again, you make all these airy claims about Zionism claiming to know so much more than I do about it when in reality it was diverse as a movement. If annihilation of Palestinians was even an option how come the local population was offered equal rights in this Jewish state?. The fact Theodore Herzel contributed some of his ideas to the early Zionists does not mean he was "Zionism" and these quotes of his you mentioned were idealogical foundation to the guys that later became our left wing, the ones who focused on the so called "returning land in exchange for peace" which is majorly flawed in my opinion.


p.s Zionism may have been formally coined in 1896, since the first congress was held in Bazzel in 1897 by Herzel, you got that right, but the idea itself travels back to the start of the Jewish diaspora and had also surfaced in the 16th and 17th centuries, and there would be no congress if it hadn't been a wide spread idea among Jews by that time.

LMAO... you don't even know what self-determination is, do you? It's not a Palestinian thing... as a matter of fact, the Jews demanding a homeland in Palestine could be described as self-determination. It was one of the things outlined in Wilson's Fourteen Points after World War I. Palestinians have every right in the world to defend their land. Israel has no right to illegally occupy territories. Does that make sense to you, or no? The term Zionism was coined in 1890/1891 by an Austrian author. Zionism didn't actually become a movement until the late 19th century. Yes, the thought of returning to the homeland has been around for centuries before, but the actual Zionist movement of actually making it an organized movement began around the end of the 19th century. I never said Herzl = Zionism... but he was one of the leading figures, and he's also credited with making it an actual political movement. If you can't refute what I say, please refrain from making up shit on what I said, or what you assume me to believe.

Potential terrorists have representation in a Parliament among other potential and some former terrorists.  :)
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 22, 2005, 12:46:37 PM
How come you find the Zionist agenda to be foul and terroristic yet you do not find the Palestinian self determination as terroristic? They've openly used terrorism, plus they weren't even a nation untill they felt like they had to obstruct the creation of a Jewish state, I can't believe you simply choose to ignore this,
I mean this is your double standard again, you make all these airy claims about Zionism claiming to know so much more than I do about it when in reality it was diverse as a movement. If annihilation of Palestinians was even an option how come the local population was offered equal rights in this Jewish state?. The fact Theodore Herzel contributed some of his ideas to the early Zionists does not mean he was "Zionism" and these quotes of his you mentioned were idealogical foundation to the guys that later became our left wing, the ones who focused on the so called "returning land in exchange for peace" which is majorly flawed in my opinion.


p.s Zionism may have been formally coined in 1896, since the first congress was held in Bazzel in 1897 by Herzel, you got that right, but the idea itself travels back to the start of the Jewish diaspora and had also surfaced in the 16th and 17th centuries, and there would be no congress if it hadn't been a wide spread idea among Jews by that time.
LMAO... you don't even know what self-determination is, do you? It's not a Palestinian thing... as a matter of fact, the Jews demanding a homeland in Palestine could be described as self-determination.


And why in God's name do you think I chose to compare Self Determination to Zionism, Mr Genius?...lol...Funny guy you are mate. Connecting the dots for you officially seems now like the right thing to do. Any genetic predisposition to dyslexia?

p.s And as for my "potential terrorists" comment here is a little elaboration for you so that you won't be able to apply any more of your smart ass remarks  ;)- Potential Palestinian Terrorists that operate under the agenda of Hamas, Jihad, Hizballah or any other Arab terrorist group.
I just can't help but wondering how these terrorists justify and rationalize their actions because they can't obviously deny Israel's existence as a state since they have Israeli citizenship and they grew up in Israel.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 22, 2005, 10:29:37 PM
How come you find the Zionist agenda to be foul and terroristic yet you do not find the Palestinian self determination as terroristic? They've openly used terrorism, plus they weren't even a nation untill they felt like they had to obstruct the creation of a Jewish state, I can't believe you simply choose to ignore this,
I mean this is your double standard again, you make all these airy claims about Zionism claiming to know so much more than I do about it when in reality it was diverse as a movement. If annihilation of Palestinians was even an option how come the local population was offered equal rights in this Jewish state?. The fact Theodore Herzel contributed some of his ideas to the early Zionists does not mean he was "Zionism" and these quotes of his you mentioned were idealogical foundation to the guys that later became our left wing, the ones who focused on the so called "returning land in exchange for peace" which is majorly flawed in my opinion.


p.s Zionism may have been formally coined in 1896, since the first congress was held in Bazzel in 1897 by Herzel, you got that right, but the idea itself travels back to the start of the Jewish diaspora and had also surfaced in the 16th and 17th centuries, and there would be no congress if it hadn't been a wide spread idea among Jews by that time.
LMAO... you don't even know what self-determination is, do you? It's not a Palestinian thing... as a matter of fact, the Jews demanding a homeland in Palestine could be described as self-determination.


And why in God's name do you think I chose to compare Self Determination to Zionism, Mr Genius?...lol...Funny guy you are mate. Connecting the dots for you officially seems now like the right thing to do. Any genetic predisposition to dyslexia?

p.s And as for my "potential terrorists" comment here is a little elaboration for you so that you won't be able to apply any more of your smart ass remarks  ;)- Potential Palestinian Terrorists that operate under the agenda of Hamas, Jihad, Hizballah or any other Arab terrorist group.
I just can't help but wondering how these terrorists justify and rationalize their actions because they can't obviously deny Israel's existence as a state since they have Israeli citizenship and they grew up in Israel.

Your seem to have ignored my previous post entirely.

But anyways... we'll just stick to whatever you decide to pick out of my posts... since you're having trouble here.

Sherlock, I know you're dumb, but you honestly can't be this dumb. I know you compared self-determination to Zionism, and I said that Zionism could be compared to self-determination... BUT you're missing the main point and that is... (and you even agreed to this earlier)... that Israel hasn't implemented Zionism the way it was described in concept. What Israel did wasn't self-determination... killing off and/or removing a population isn't self-determination, no matter how much you're told that it is.

Thanks for acknowledging my smart comments, I'll take it as a compliment. How can Israelis deny Palestine's existence as a state since they live on Palestinian land and continue to settle it???  :) Same shit.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 23, 2005, 02:55:18 AM
How come you find the Zionist agenda to be foul and terroristic yet you do not find the Palestinian self determination as terroristic? They've openly used terrorism, plus they weren't even a nation untill they felt like they had to obstruct the creation of a Jewish state, I can't believe you simply choose to ignore this,
I mean this is your double standard again, you make all these airy claims about Zionism claiming to know so much more than I do about it when in reality it was diverse as a movement. If annihilation of Palestinians was even an option how come the local population was offered equal rights in this Jewish state?. The fact Theodore Herzel contributed some of his ideas to the early Zionists does not mean he was "Zionism" and these quotes of his you mentioned were idealogical foundation to the guys that later became our left wing, the ones who focused on the so called "returning land in exchange for peace" which is majorly flawed in my opinion.


p.s Zionism may have been formally coined in 1896, since the first congress was held in Bazzel in 1897 by Herzel, you got that right, but the idea itself travels back to the start of the Jewish diaspora and had also surfaced in the 16th and 17th centuries, and there would be no congress if it hadn't been a wide spread idea among Jews by that time.
LMAO... you don't even know what self-determination is, do you? It's not a Palestinian thing... as a matter of fact, the Jews demanding a homeland in Palestine could be described as self-determination.


And why in God's name do you think I chose to compare Self Determination to Zionism, Mr Genius?...lol...Funny guy you are mate. Connecting the dots for you officially seems now like the right thing to do. Any genetic predisposition to dyslexia?

p.s And as for my "potential terrorists" comment here is a little elaboration for you so that you won't be able to apply any more of your smart ass remarks  ;)- Potential Palestinian Terrorists that operate under the agenda of Hamas, Jihad, Hizballah or any other Arab terrorist group.
I just can't help but wondering how these terrorists justify and rationalize their actions because they can't obviously deny Israel's existence as a state since they have Israeli citizenship and they grew up in Israel.

Your seem to have ignored my previous post entirely.

Sherlock, I know you're dumb, but you honestly can't be this dumb. I know you compared self-determination to Zionism, and I said that Zionism could be compared to self-determination... BUT you're missing the main point and that is... (

So you conclude that I don't know what Self Determination is? - lol-Your statements are amazingly correlated...lol...And I'm the one with damaged logic?...This is when I'd be saying "I rest my case" but eyes need to be opened and dots need to be connected  ;D. I've  already stated that Zionism is an ideal, ideals become agendas and many different people have their own takes on how to carry out the same agendas. I've also mentioned that the transfer idealogy was never carried out. Military actions however weren't first initiated by Israel at the dawn of this conflict and on Israel's behalf military actions were merely a reaction and a notion of self protection and protection of the Zionist dream- Yes, early Zionists did foresee this turn of events (And that's why they had a number of presumable courses of action) but the fact Palestinians were offered equal rights within this state only showes Zionists wanted to resolve this otherwise,while exhibiting great sensitivity to how these locals where manipulated from outside, not to mention that the Palestinian Self Determination was a new movement among the Palestinians since they had never striven to found their own state before the Zionists, since they didn't even consider themselves a nation...lol I feel like I'm repeating myself. Zionists took down two mandates off this land on their way to their goal, where were the Palestinians with their Self Determination at the time of the mandates? I believe that the spirit of compromise of the early Zionists toward the Palestinians contrary to the lack of compromise toward the mandates, played a great role in the development of this feud.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 23, 2005, 03:30:48 AM
The term Zionism was coined in 1890/1891 by an Austrian author

1893 in fact by Nathan Birnbaum Jewish Austrian author. Forgot to comment on this.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 23, 2005, 11:38:16 AM
How come you find the Zionist agenda to be foul and terroristic yet you do not find the Palestinian self determination as terroristic? They've openly used terrorism, plus they weren't even a nation untill they felt like they had to obstruct the creation of a Jewish state, I can't believe you simply choose to ignore this,
I mean this is your double standard again, you make all these airy claims about Zionism claiming to know so much more than I do about it when in reality it was diverse as a movement. If annihilation of Palestinians was even an option how come the local population was offered equal rights in this Jewish state?. The fact Theodore Herzel contributed some of his ideas to the early Zionists does not mean he was "Zionism" and these quotes of his you mentioned were idealogical foundation to the guys that later became our left wing, the ones who focused on the so called "returning land in exchange for peace" which is majorly flawed in my opinion.


p.s Zionism may have been formally coined in 1896, since the first congress was held in Bazzel in 1897 by Herzel, you got that right, but the idea itself travels back to the start of the Jewish diaspora and had also surfaced in the 16th and 17th centuries, and there would be no congress if it hadn't been a wide spread idea among Jews by that time.
LMAO... you don't even know what self-determination is, do you? It's not a Palestinian thing... as a matter of fact, the Jews demanding a homeland in Palestine could be described as self-determination.


And why in God's name do you think I chose to compare Self Determination to Zionism, Mr Genius?...lol...Funny guy you are mate. Connecting the dots for you officially seems now like the right thing to do. Any genetic predisposition to dyslexia?

p.s And as for my "potential terrorists" comment here is a little elaboration for you so that you won't be able to apply any more of your smart ass remarks  ;)- Potential Palestinian Terrorists that operate under the agenda of Hamas, Jihad, Hizballah or any other Arab terrorist group.
I just can't help but wondering how these terrorists justify and rationalize their actions because they can't obviously deny Israel's existence as a state since they have Israeli citizenship and they grew up in Israel.

Your seem to have ignored my previous post entirely.

Sherlock, I know you're dumb, but you honestly can't be this dumb. I know you compared self-determination to Zionism, and I said that Zionism could be compared to self-determination... BUT you're missing the main point and that is... (

So you conclude that I don't know what Self Determination is? - lol-Your statements are amazingly correlated...lol...And I'm the one with damaged logic?...This is when I'd be saying "I rest my case" but eyes need to be opened and dots need to be connected  ;D. I've  already stated that Zionism is an ideal, ideals become agendas and many different people have their own takes on how to carry out the same agendas. I've also mentioned that the transfer idealogy was never carried out. Military actions however weren't first initiated by Israel at the dawn of this conflict and on Israel's behalf military actions were merely a reaction and a notion of self protection and protection of the Zionist dream- Yes, early Zionists did foresee this turn of events (And that's why they had a number of presumable courses of action) but the fact Palestinians were offered equal rights within this state only showes Zionists wanted to resolve this otherwise,while exhibiting great sensitivity to how these locals where manipulated from outside, not to mention that the Palestinian Self Determination was a new movement among the Palestinians since they had never striven to found their own state before the Zionists, since they didn't even consider themselves a nation...lol I feel like I'm repeating myself. Zionists took down two mandates off this land on their way to their goal, where were the Palestinians with their Self Determination at the time of the mandates? I believe that the spirit of compromise of the early Zionists toward the Palestinians contrary to the lack of compromise toward the mandates, played a great role in the development of this feud.

Actually, I asked "you don't even know what self-determination is, do you?"... but if you feel that you don't know what it is, then be it. To answer your next question, yes you are the one with damaged logic. There were several Zionist terrorist groups at the dawn of this project. The only thing you can bring up, and that holds no ground here because that's not what the argument is about, is that Palestinians have "EQUAL" rights... which you and I know isn't completely true, but that's a whole 'nother story. Either stick to the argument, or just save me the trouble of outlining every little thing for you in dummy terms so you can understand. Yes, you are repeating yourself... I've already read this bullshit earlier, but it doesn't answer anything. Once again, you're just repeating what you perceive to be historical events. What did I say earlier when you posted this jumble?

"there's more to Zionism than just the establishment of a Jewish home... because that's the goal, yes, but the ideology entails more, and the means to justify that end isn't as rosy as you'd like to believe"

Am I right or no? Throughout the argument you've several times just come back to making statements that agree with my point... I don't know if it was unintentional or because you know that you can't dig yourself out of your bullshit.

LOLLL... out of all the shit that the Zionists have done to the Palestinians you can sit there and tell me that the lack of determination of Palestinians to create a national state is one of the main problems in this conflict..... you're so dumb, you honestly crack me up.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 23, 2005, 11:41:12 AM
The term Zionism was coined in 1890/1891 by an Austrian author

1893 in fact by Nathan Birnbaum Jewish Austrian author. Forgot to comment on this.

Even though this is pretty meaningless, since my whole point was that the term Zionism didn't exist til the end of the 19th century, and that I was trying to show that Theodor Herzl was one of the first of the movement by proving how he was doing his shit right around the same time the term was coined....  I still need to point out that once again you try to pick out meaningless things, and STILL I'll show you that I'm right and you're full of bullshit. 

Nathan Birnbaum wrote "Selbstemanzipation" (Self-Emancipation) in 1890.... this is the first time he or anyone for that matter had used the word Zionism.

Please, if you don't know... as all the other posts show, then just keep it shut. You just love talking out of your ass, but best believe I'ma point it out.

Since your google search didn't help you out... try another one... I'll even help you out, since you seem to have too much on your hands, and your brain can't handle so much at once.... "Nathan Birnbaum term Zionism 1890" LOLLLL now just shut the fuck up

Please refrain from using the word "fact" at times like this... I know how you Zionists are used to just taking facts, playing around with them to turn into something totally different and then come back and still try to pass them off as facts, but not here, buddy.  :)

Anyways, now you're done, and I'm done dealing with brainwashed children here. You can post another story out of your history books, but I truly don't even care... have CWalker respond to it... he has the same mentality as you, so you might enjoy his answer a bit more than you'll enjoy mine.

 8)
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 23, 2005, 03:26:05 PM
You're right I am going to post another story out of a History book, feel free to skip it, I lost hope in your ability to comprehend man,keep bringing your smart ass insults in my adress I've truely grown out of this, I honestly don't care if that's how you choose to evade the truth , but this story is not only about us Jews it is about our relationship with the world you people are a part of .
I'm starting to wonder whether I'm talking to a wall here, and I believe that it is in fact what I am doing. This is actually my fault and my fault only,yes I honsetly believe that it is, I should've known better, after all, this world, to which you belong and unwillingly me and my people are segregated from, no metter how many times you'll deny it to yourselves, had already been tested for it's capacity to endure the truth and it miserably failed-MISERABLY and not even because it put labels on people and rendered them as social parasites for centuries for no justifiable reason, not even because of the most prominent outlet of the hate toward my people which The Holocaust had become, but mainly because this world still refuses to recognize it's responsibility for the amount of suffering it had inflicted(If it wouldn't have been Germany it would've been one of the other nations Jews lived among- History teaches us this) on the Jewish people throughout the centuries and it still does nowadays,  more importantly it refuses to learn from it's mistakes while maintaining it's old prejudicial views and passing them down the generations. Yes, it is a lot better camouflaged these days, people who openly proclaim their NEO NAZI agendas are considered by the modern "tolerant" mainstream as society's angered and frustrated margin to the naked eye but under the surface fathers tell their sons the same old bedtime story, the well tested one, about these hook nosed parasites that will take their money when they are older,they will throw them off track and they will take over their land ,they will let their blood out and use it to bake their Matzah bread...
You must be thinking by now that I'm talking about a non-related issue, isn't that so?- But I'm used to approaching problems from their origins and the fact of the matter is that in such a world there is little space for 'People with no land' of their own and that's where the active Zionism came in(Active, since the idea of returning to the Jewish historical homeland had always been there, Zion- biblical Jerusalem)-Yes Jamal, the one you oppose to begin with . Influenced by contemporary events among which was also the Dreyfus Trial (Jewish French army officer who was convicted in treason in 1894 and aquitted in 1906) Theodore Herzel wrote in his book "The Jewish State"(1896- as it has already been mentioned) where he claimed that there was no solution to the problem of Anti-Semitism other than the creation of a Jewish national home. After the Pogroms in Kishenev, which the Jews of  Kishenev endured in 1903 Herzel decided that an urgent solution was needed even prior to a political agreement and in the sixth Zionist Congress he offered the Uganda Plan(something I've mentioned already) which was meant to supply a temporary refuge for the persecuted Jews of Europe, by that time most of the Zionists' minds were set on the historical Jewish land and the suggestion was overruled. Jews needed a state, a national home, it was clear to everyone, it was clear that it was going to be found on this land. The British Mandate from it's start was bound to "the Balfour Declaration"(written by Arthur James Balfour,statement of British support for the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people), right from the begining when the League of Nations gathered in 1922. But with time the British promiss had been proven to be a lie when the Brits started denying the spirit of "the Balfour Declaration" due to Palestinian resolved objection to it's realization.ENTER: Jewish Resistance. Yes Jamal these were the people you classified as terrorists,the people who were influenced as you say by Jabotinski and who were partly lead by him, but you seem to ignore one thing, Jabotinski essentially had nothing against the Palestinian natives, he was against removing them from this land, he was proud of the Zionist convention in Helsinki in 1906 where they founded a plan regarding the rights of a number of nations that were to live within a single state, based on equal rights,and he had sworen that on the part of the Zionists these principles would never be transgressed. But he understood that it wasn't only up to him and the Zionists but also up to the Palestinians, he pondered on how they viewed Zionism and it's agendas and he had offered them equal rights. These are all historical facts, for some reason you chose to show only one side of Jabotinsky, the one derived from the Palestinian objection to a peaceful solution. hmm....I wonder why?
 
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: King Tech Quadafi on October 23, 2005, 11:20:47 PM
This guy never gets it

I To Tha Geezy
Missing the point since 2001.

Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 24, 2005, 12:02:21 AM
This guy never gets it

I To Tha Geezy
Missing the point since 2001.

LOL... he's a lost cause... if only he knew what the argument at hand was... I wish I was fluent in Hebrew, maybe then he'd understand... anyways, you were done and over with a long time ago... you just keep coming back like I stole something...

Zionism can't succeed without killing innocent people and removing people off their lands... what right does Israel have to go into Palestinian territory, bulldoze homes, kill people, cut down trees they depend on, etc? Zionism = Fucked up.

You can't deny that, so you bring that jumble... I already said I don't give a shit what your History books say... keep it for someone who cares... I know the truth well enough not to fall for that b.s... I see a wall, people like you tell me it's a fence.. it's 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall, but ythey still claim it's a fence... retards.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 24, 2005, 12:15:22 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 24, 2005, 12:35:17 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on October 24, 2005, 02:33:43 AM
This guy never gets it

I To Tha Geezy
Missing the point since 2001.

LOL... he's a lost cause... if only he knew what the argument at hand was... I wish I was fluent in Hebrew, maybe then he'd understand... anyways, you were done and over with a long time ago... you just keep coming back like I stole something...

Zionism can't succeed without killing innocent people and removing people off their lands... what right does Israel have to go into Palestinian territory, bulldoze homes, kill people, cut down trees they depend on, etc? Zionism = Fucked up.

You can't deny that, so you bring that jumble... I already said I don't give a shit what your History books say... keep it for someone who cares... I know the truth well enough not to fall for that b.s... I see a wall, people like you tell me it's a fence.. it's 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall, but ythey still claim it's a fence... retards.
yup i have 2 jewish friends they support the idea of jewish national home but in no way do they support the actions of israel....
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 24, 2005, 04:32:41 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 24, 2005, 10:38:26 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 24, 2005, 12:24:43 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 24, 2005, 11:18:28 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on October 25, 2005, 01:07:14 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 25, 2005, 02:04:58 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 25, 2005, 02:13:15 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)

lol@ UN resolutions against Israel, I wonder where are UN's resolutions against terrorism and misuse of support money for terroristic purposes? this only correlates with my little history brief . How come we don't discuss them?- wait, do they even exist?...Are these Israel's problems alone?
Coming from the guy who supports an authority that teaches children hate in schools and has them marching the streets with guns at grade school age, that supports killing civilians and preaches it openly, which expresses ambiguous massages being seemingly peace seeking outwards and calling for mass murder inwards, that supports fabrication of death or stimulation of it among it's own people for P.R. Yea....reality check homie!
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 25, 2005, 03:11:45 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)

lol@ UN resolutions against Israel, I wonder where are UN's resolutions against terrorism and misuse of support money for terroristic purposes? this only correlates with my little history brief . How come we don't discuss them?- wait, do they even exist?...Are these Israel's problems alone?
Coming from the guy who supports an authority that teaches children hate in schools and has them marching the streets with guns at grade school age, that supports killing civilians and preaches it openly, which expresses ambiguous massages being seemingly peace seeking outwards and calling for mass murder inwards, that supports fabrication of death or stimulation of it among it's own people for P.R. Yea....reality check homie!

1. There's nothing funny about UN resolutions against Israel.

2. As someone who supports the Israeli regime, there really is no room to talk about "what gets discussed, and what is hidden away". The Israeli soldiers shoot innocent journalists and reporters because they don't want the truth exposed. I've heard from several journalists first-hand that the soldiers were aiming at them, or would shoot at whatever homes they were staying at. There have also been occasions of the Israeli government telling Israeli journalists not to show certain footage. If you want figures of the number of deaths reported for each side... and what's exposed, and what's hidden.. check out..
www.ifamericansknew.org (http://www.ifamericansknew.org)
There are a lot of nice things there... take your time.

3. You're making the assumption that I support a certain "authority"... which I don't. Please, if your argument is being shattered left and right, don't start making assumptions about me. Just because I don't support the Zionist regime, doesn't mean I support terrorism because that would be hypocritical... since Zionism is terrorism.

I've said over and over again that this is done... along with you... but you keep coming back like I stole something from you... I didn't... the only thing you're deprived of is the truth, and that honestly isn't my fault...  maybe you didn't understand me before, just like throughout the rest of this argument, so I shall say it again... PEACE... SHALOM.  :)
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Crisis on October 25, 2005, 03:44:10 AM
Zionism is terrorism.

That's dead on target, homie...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 25, 2005, 05:27:08 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)

lol@ UN resolutions against Israel, I wonder where are UN's resolutions against terrorism and misuse of support money for terroristic purposes? this only correlates with my little history brief . How come we don't discuss them?- wait, do they even exist?...Are these Israel's problems alone?
Coming from the guy who supports an authority that teaches children hate in schools and has them marching the streets with guns at grade school age, that supports killing civilians and preaches it openly, which expresses ambiguous massages being seemingly peace seeking outwards and calling for mass murder inwards, that supports fabrication of death or stimulation of it among it's own people for P.R. Yea....reality check homie!

1. There's nothing funny about UN resolutions against Israel.

2. As someone who supports the Israeli regime, there really is no room to talk about "what gets discussed, and what is hidden away". The Israeli soldiers shoot innocent journalists and reporters because they don't want the truth exposed. I've heard from several journalists first-hand that the soldiers were aiming at them, or would shoot at whatever homes they were staying at. There have also been occasions of the Israeli government telling Israeli journalists not to show certain footage. If you want figures of the number of deaths reported for each side... and what's exposed, and what's hidden.. check out..
www.ifamericansknew.org (http://www.ifamericansknew.org)
There are a lot of nice things there... take your time.

3. You're making the assumption that I support a certain "authority"... which I don't. Please, if your argument is being shattered left and right, don't start making assumptions about me. Just because I don't support the Zionist regime, doesn't mean I support terrorism because that would be hypocritical... since Zionism is terrorism. u

I've said over and over again that this is done... along with you... but you keep coming back like I stole something from you... I didn't... the only thing you're deprived of is the truth, and that honestly isn't my fault...  maybe you didn't understand me before, just likes arguemout the rest of this argument, so I shall say it again... PEACE... SHALOM.  :)

I feel like this is really coming full circle man, you go back right to the begining of this argument after I've already responded to allegations like "Israeli soldiers killing journalists" and you're relying on the possibiliy people will simply be too damn lazy to go back to previous pages of this thread, avoiding it when it's still fresh and returning to it as soon as the argument is shifted into causes of the conflict and it's origin. Nice one, unfortunately not for someone who knowes how the Palestinian propaganda works....lol@ ifamericansknew.org only the title reeks with propaganda, claiming to know more than the next man about what goes down in the battle field. I've witnessed such shit in first person where by merely omitting one seemingly unimportant fact the entire occurrence is bestowed with an opposed meaning to what was really going on. This is what the Palestinian propaganda relies on. You're trying to bail out of this argument while trying to convince yourself that you somehow got the upper hand but then you're coming right back with the claims that have already been dealt with, this is embarrassing homie. But since you come up with more statements, from time to time, that you think might correlate with your argument  then I have more things to respond to. UN resolutions! let's talk about the UN- what do you reckon the UN to be? a moral compass? or is it a reflection of an international consensus? IF it is a reflection of the  international consensus, in your opinion, then it is based on democratic decisions, right?- But wait, there is representation of countries within the UN that do not uphold democracy within their own jurisdiction, how curious, wouldn't you say? isn't that somewhat of a conflict? ....But what IF you chose to reckon it as a moral compass, a thing I doubt, but still what if? you're the one who brought it up after all.
IF you think of the UN as of a moral compass when you were against Israel's existance to begin with as you have stated yourself then you are in contradiction with yourself once again. Who gave Israel the 'go' to proclaim itself huh (that is aside from Zionists)?- The UN.
I rest my case your honor.

p.s Why don't you explain now why the Palestinians do what they do (since you've fully focused on Israel's conduct up untill now)? Who said Israel has to be the defendant?
Or do you entirely support all actions taken by Palestinian terroristic power structures?-I don't believe that you do but then again, I'm asking this because up untill now you haven't enquired the Palestinian demeanor, NOT EVEN ONCE,do you know, or seek to know with similar eagerness, exactly what goes on behind the walls of the Palestinian establishment?
I've referenced both sides.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 25, 2005, 11:52:42 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)

lol@ UN resolutions against Israel, I wonder where are UN's resolutions against terrorism and misuse of support money for terroristic purposes? this only correlates with my little history brief . How come we don't discuss them?- wait, do they even exist?...Are these Israel's problems alone?
Coming from the guy who supports an authority that teaches children hate in schools and has them marching the streets with guns at grade school age, that supports killing civilians and preaches it openly, which expresses ambiguous massages being seemingly peace seeking outwards and calling for mass murder inwards, that supports fabrication of death or stimulation of it among it's own people for P.R. Yea....reality check homie!

1. There's nothing funny about UN resolutions against Israel.

2. As someone who supports the Israeli regime, there really is no room to talk about "what gets discussed, and what is hidden away". The Israeli soldiers shoot innocent journalists and reporters because they don't want the truth exposed. I've heard from several journalists first-hand that the soldiers were aiming at them, or would shoot at whatever homes they were staying at. There have also been occasions of the Israeli government telling Israeli journalists not to show certain footage. If you want figures of the number of deaths reported for each side... and what's exposed, and what's hidden.. check out..
www.ifamericansknew.org (http://www.ifamericansknew.org)
There are a lot of nice things there... take your time.

3. You're making the assumption that I support a certain "authority"... which I don't. Please, if your argument is being shattered left and right, don't start making assumptions about me. Just because I don't support the Zionist regime, doesn't mean I support terrorism because that would be hypocritical... since Zionism is terrorism. u

I've said over and over again that this is done... along with you... but you keep coming back like I stole something from you... I didn't... the only thing you're deprived of is the truth, and that honestly isn't my fault...  maybe you didn't understand me before, just likes arguemout the rest of this argument, so I shall say it again... PEACE... SHALOM.  :)

I feel like this is really coming full sircle man, you go back right to the begining of this argument after I've already responded to allegations like "Israeli soldiers killing journalists" and you're relying on the possibiliy people will simply be too damn lazy to go back to previous pages of this thread, avoiding it when it's still fresh and returning to it as soon as the argument is shifted into causes of the conflict and it's origin. Nice one, unfortunately not for someone who knowes how the Palestinian propaganda works....lol@ ifamericansknew.org only the title reeks with propaganda, claiming to know more than the next man about what goes down in the battle field. I've witnessed such shit in first person where by merely omitting one seemingly unimportant fact the entire occurrence is bestowed with an opposed meaning to what was really going on. This is what the Palestinian propaganda relies on. You're trying to bail out of this argument while trying to convince yourself that you somehow got the upper hand but then you're coming right back with the claims that have already been dealt with, this is embarrassing homie. But since you come up with more statements, from time to time, that you think might correlate with your argument  then I have more things to respond to. UN resolutions! let's talk about the UN- what do you reckon the UN to be? a moral compass? or is it a reflection of an international consensus? IF it is a reflection of the  international consensus, in your opinion, then it is based on democratic decisions, right?- But wait, there is representation of countries within the UN that do not uphold democracy within their own jurisdiction, how curious, wouldn't you say? isn't that somewhat of a conflict? ....But what IF you chose to reckon it as a moral compass, a thing I doubt, but still what if? you're the one who brought it up after all.
IF you think of the UN as of a moral compass when you were against Israel's existance to begin with as you have stated yourself then you are in contradiction with yourself once again. Who gave Israel the 'go' to proclaim itself huh (that is aside from Zionists)?- The UN.
I rest my case your honor.

p.s Why don't you explain now why the Palestinians do what they do (since you've fully focused on Israel's conduct up untill now)? Who said Israel has to be the defendant?
Or do you entirely support all actions taken by Palestinian terroristic power structures?-I don't believe that you do but then again, I'm asking this because up untill now you haven't enquired the Palestinian demeanor, NOT EVEN ONCE,do you know, or seek to know with similar eagerness, exactly what goes on behind the walls of the Palestinian establishment?
I've referenced both sides.

1. www.ifamericansknew.org  isn't a Palestinian website... it was started by an American lady named Alison Weir. She has been to Palestine (illegally occupied territories), and has seen everything first hand. She has written books on the matter, and has done all the research to put up on her website. You can't argue with facts, no matter how much you try to. There is nothing subjective about the information, it's all statistics. The only victim to propaganda is the one who is told that a wall is really a fence... and that's just the beginning of it.

2. LOL ignoring the bullshit argument filled with subjective rhetorical questions, I'll ask you something... why was the UN the good guy when it gave Israel the "go to proclaim itself", but all of a sudden the UN is wrong by having these resolutions against Israel? Do you know what two countries were the ONLY countries in 1987 to vote against a measure condemning terrorism in the strongest terms? United States and Israel... do you know why? Being the ignorant person that you are, I don't expect you to... so I'll tell you... it's because of the South African ally and what was going on there... and because of what was happening between Israel and Lebanon. But that's beside the point... point is that Israel has over 60 UN resolutions against it... and that's considering the fact that the U.S. pretty much owns the UN and the U.S. is usually the only one to have a veto against anything condemnig Israel or making Israel look bad. What happened after the Lavon Affair? Do you know that the U.S. government didn't want it to be thrown out in the media because it would make Israel look bad? If Israel has over 60 UN resolutions... you best believe Israel is fucking shit up, not adhering to international laws, and probably deserves even more resolutions...

3. I don't need to defend Palestinians. The issue at hand is Zionism. The movement began before it even involved the Palestinians. If you feel that all your arguments are being shattered left and right, which they are, then just accept that. And another thing, nobody said anything about Israel being the defendant... Israel is the aggressor, Palestinians are the ones on defense. Palestinians didn't come and illegally occupy your land, did they? Palestinians didn't bulldoze your homes, did they? Palestinians didn't build a wall ON your land, did they? Palestinians didn't create checkpoints for you, did they? In Afghanistan, the Mujahideen were driving out the Soviet occupation... in Iraq the "insurgents" (freedom fighters) are attempting to drive out the American occupation... and in Palestine, the Palestinians are trying to drive out the Israeli occupation. Make sense? Ok good. To answer your question... since you're just gonna keep whining... No I don't support all the actions taken by the Palestinian side. However, you gotta do whatever it takes to drive out an occupation... just like Israel is doing whatever it takes to protect its people.

Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 25, 2005, 12:26:19 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)

lol@ UN resolutions against Israel, I wonder where are UN's resolutions against terrorism and misuse of support money for terroristic purposes? this only correlates with my little history brief . How come we don't discuss them?- wait, do they even exist?...Are these Israel's problems alone?
Coming from the guy who supports an authority that teaches children hate in schools and has them marching the streets with guns at grade school age, that supports killing civilians and preaches it openly, which expresses ambiguous massages being seemingly peace seeking outwards and calling for mass murder inwards, that supports fabrication of death or stimulation of it among it's own people for P.R. Yea....reality check homie!

1. There's nothing funny about UN resolutions against Israel.

2. As someone who supports the Israeli regime, there really is no room to talk about "what gets discussed, and what is hidden away". The Israeli soldiers shoot innocent journalists and reporters because they don't want the truth exposed. I've heard from several journalists first-hand that the soldiers were aiming at them, or would shoot at whatever homes they were staying at. There have also been occasions of the Israeli government telling Israeli journalists not to show certain footage. If you want figures of the number of deaths reported for each side... and what's exposed, and what's hidden.. check out..
www.ifamericansknew.org (http://www.ifamericansknew.org)
There are a lot of nice things there... take your time.

3. You're making the assumption that I support a certain "authority"... which I don't. Please, if your argument is being shattered left and right, don't start making assumptions about me. Just because I don't support the Zionist regime, doesn't mean I support terrorism because that would be hypocritical... since Zionism is terrorism. u

I've said over and over again that this is done... along with you... but you keep coming back like I stole something from you... I didn't... the only thing you're deprived of is the truth, and that honestly isn't my fault...  maybe you didn't understand me before, just likes arguemout the rest of this argument, so I shall say it again... PEACE... SHALOM.  :)

I feel like this is really coming full sircle man, you go back right to the begining of this argument after I've already responded to allegations like "Israeli soldiers killing journalists" and you're relying on the possibiliy people will simply be too damn lazy to go back to previous pages of this thread, avoiding it when it's still fresh and returning to it as soon as the argument is shifted into causes of the conflict and it's origin. Nice one, unfortunately not for someone who knowes how the Palestinian propaganda works....lol@ ifamericansknew.org only the title reeks with propaganda, claiming to know more than the next man about what goes down in the battle field. I've witnessed such shit in first person where by merely omitting one seemingly unimportant fact the entire occurrence is bestowed with an opposed meaning to what was really going on. This is what the Palestinian propaganda relies on. You're trying to bail out of this argument while trying to convince yourself that you somehow got the upper hand but then you're coming right back with the claims that have already been dealt with, this is embarrassing homie. But since you come up with more statements, from time to time, that you think might correlate with your argument  then I have more things to respond to. UN resolutions! let's talk about the UN- what do you reckon the UN to be? a moral compass? or is it a reflection of an international consensus? IF it is a reflection of the  international consensus, in your opinion, then it is based on democratic decisions, right?- But wait, there is representation of countries within the UN that do not uphold democracy within their own jurisdiction, how curious, wouldn't you say? isn't that somewhat of a conflict? ....But what IF you chose to reckon it as a moral compass, a thing I doubt, but still what if? you're the one who brought it up after all.
IF you think of the UN as of a moral compass when you were against Israel's existance to begin with as you have stated yourself then you are in contradiction with yourself once again. Who gave Israel the 'go' to proclaim itself huh (that is aside from Zionists)?- The UN.
I rest my case your honor.

p.s Why don't you explain now why the Palestinians do what they do (since you've fully focused on Israel's conduct up untill now)? Who said Israel has to be the defendant?
Or do you entirely support all actions taken by Palestinian terroristic power structures?-I don't believe that you do but then again, I'm asking this because up untill now you haven't enquired the Palestinian demeanor, NOT EVEN ONCE,do you know, or seek to know with similar eagerness, exactly what goes on behind the walls of the Palestinian establishment?
I've referenced both sides.

1. www.ifamericansknew.org  isn't a Palestinian website... it was started by an American lady named Alison Weir. She has been to Palestine (illegally occupied territories), and has seen everything first hand. She has written books on the matter, and has done all the research to put up on her website. You can't argue with facts, no matter how much you try to. There is nothing subjective about the information, it's all statistics. The only victim to propaganda is the one who is told that a wall is really a fence... and that's just the beginning of it.

2. LOL ignoring the bullshit argument filled with subjective rhetorical questions, I'll ask you something... why was the UN the good guy when it gave Israel the "go to proclaim itself", but all of a sudden the UN is wrong by having these resolutions against Israel? Do you know what two countries were the ONLY countries in 1987 to vote against a measure condemning terrorism in the strongest terms? United States and Israel... do you know why? Being the ignorant person that you are, I don't expect you to... so I'll tell you... it's because of the South African ally and what was going on there... and because of what was happening between Israel and Lebanon. But that's beside the point... point is that Israel has over 60 UN resolutions against it... and that's considering the fact that the U.S. pretty much owns the UN and the U.S. is usually the only one to have a veto against anything condemnig Israel or making Israel look bad. What happened after the Lavon Affair? Do you know that the U.S. government didn't want it to be thrown out in the media because it would make Israel look bad? If Israel has over 60 UN resolutions... you best believe Israel is fucking shit up, not adhering to international laws, and probably deserves even more resolutions...

3. I don't need to defend Palestinians. The issue at hand is Zionism. The movement began before it even involved the Palestinians. If you feel that all your arguments are being shattered left and right, which they are, then just accept that. And another thing, nobody said anything about Israel being the defendant... Israel is the aggressor, Palestinians are the ones on defense. Palestinians didn't come and illegally occupy your land, did they? Palestinians didn't bulldoze your homes, did they? Palestinians didn't build a wall ON your land, did they? Palestinians didn't create checkpoints for you, did they? In Afghanistan, the Mujahideen were driving out the Soviet occupation... in Iraq the "insurgents" (freedom fighters) are attempting to drive out the American occupation... and in Palestine, the Palestinians are trying to drive out the Israeli occupation. Make sense? Ok good. To answer your question... since you're just gonna keep whining... No I don't support all the actions taken by the Palestinian side. However, you gotta do whatever it takes to drive out an occupation... just like Israel is doing whatever it takes to protect its people.

lol...1."Defendant" in the Judicial sence.2.You don't have to be Palestinian to promote anti-Israeli propoganda,there are plenty of anti-Israeli people around the world ergo The UN resolutions at hand (and why not explain it also by the amount of Arab nations within the UN)3.How come there are no UN resolutions against terroristic atacks on Israel or against the misuse of support money for terroristic purposes- WHAT DOES THIS TELL US?-double standard...(even you claim to be against palestinian terrorism yet you support the UN only because it is against Israel- CONTRADICTION) .4.I wasn't the one to claim whether the UN was right or wrong, you are the one who openly supports it and keeps throwing these UN resolutions in my face.5. Israel is not the one that openly supports mass murder of civilians.6.Israel is not the one using international support money for purposes of terrorism.


p.s The issue at hand is objection to Israel's conduct since Palestinians are viewed as sheer victims and this is what I've disproved long ago,  you're the only one evading the argument.






Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on October 25, 2005, 03:08:55 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 25, 2005, 05:29:37 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)

lol@ UN resolutions against Israel, I wonder where are UN's resolutions against terrorism and misuse of support money for terroristic purposes? this only correlates with my little history brief . How come we don't discuss them?- wait, do they even exist?...Are these Israel's problems alone?
Coming from the guy who supports an authority that teaches children hate in schools and has them marching the streets with guns at grade school age, that supports killing civilians and preaches it openly, which expresses ambiguous massages being seemingly peace seeking outwards and calling for mass murder inwards, that supports fabrication of death or stimulation of it among it's own people for P.R. Yea....reality check homie!

1. There's nothing funny about UN resolutions against Israel.

2. As someone who supports the Israeli regime, there really is no room to talk about "what gets discussed, and what is hidden away". The Israeli soldiers shoot innocent journalists and reporters because they don't want the truth exposed. I've heard from several journalists first-hand that the soldiers were aiming at them, or would shoot at whatever homes they were staying at. There have also been occasions of the Israeli government telling Israeli journalists not to show certain footage. If you want figures of the number of deaths reported for each side... and what's exposed, and what's hidden.. check out..
www.ifamericansknew.org (http://www.ifamericansknew.org)
There are a lot of nice things there... take your time.

3. You're making the assumption that I support a certain "authority"... which I don't. Please, if your argument is being shattered left and right, don't start making assumptions about me. Just because I don't support the Zionist regime, doesn't mean I support terrorism because that would be hypocritical... since Zionism is terrorism. u

I've said over and over again that this is done... along with you... but you keep coming back like I stole something from you... I didn't... the only thing you're deprived of is the truth, and that honestly isn't my fault...  maybe you didn't understand me before, just likes arguemout the rest of this argument, so I shall say it again... PEACE... SHALOM.  :)

I feel like this is really coming full sircle man, you go back right to the begining of this argument after I've already responded to allegations like "Israeli soldiers killing journalists" and you're relying on the possibiliy people will simply be too damn lazy to go back to previous pages of this thread, avoiding it when it's still fresh and returning to it as soon as the argument is shifted into causes of the conflict and it's origin. Nice one, unfortunately not for someone who knowes how the Palestinian propaganda works....lol@ ifamericansknew.org only the title reeks with propaganda, claiming to know more than the next man about what goes down in the battle field. I've witnessed such shit in first person where by merely omitting one seemingly unimportant fact the entire occurrence is bestowed with an opposed meaning to what was really going on. This is what the Palestinian propaganda relies on. You're trying to bail out of this argument while trying to convince yourself that you somehow got the upper hand but then you're coming right back with the claims that have already been dealt with, this is embarrassing homie. But since you come up with more statements, from time to time, that you think might correlate with your argument  then I have more things to respond to. UN resolutions! let's talk about the UN- what do you reckon the UN to be? a moral compass? or is it a reflection of an international consensus? IF it is a reflection of the  international consensus, in your opinion, then it is based on democratic decisions, right?- But wait, there is representation of countries within the UN that do not uphold democracy within their own jurisdiction, how curious, wouldn't you say? isn't that somewhat of a conflict? ....But what IF you chose to reckon it as a moral compass, a thing I doubt, but still what if? you're the one who brought it up after all.
IF you think of the UN as of a moral compass when you were against Israel's existance to begin with as you have stated yourself then you are in contradiction with yourself once again. Who gave Israel the 'go' to proclaim itself huh (that is aside from Zionists)?- The UN.
I rest my case your honor.

p.s Why don't you explain now why the Palestinians do what they do (since you've fully focused on Israel's conduct up untill now)? Who said Israel has to be the defendant?
Or do you entirely support all actions taken by Palestinian terroristic power structures?-I don't believe that you do but then again, I'm asking this because up untill now you haven't enquired the Palestinian demeanor, NOT EVEN ONCE,do you know, or seek to know with similar eagerness, exactly what goes on behind the walls of the Palestinian establishment?
I've referenced both sides.

1. www.ifamericansknew.org  isn't a Palestinian website... it was started by an American lady named Alison Weir. She has been to Palestine (illegally occupied territories), and has seen everything first hand. She has written books on the matter, and has done all the research to put up on her website. You can't argue with facts, no matter how much you try to. There is nothing subjective about the information, it's all statistics. The only victim to propaganda is the one who is told that a wall is really a fence... and that's just the beginning of it.

2. LOL ignoring the bullshit argument filled with subjective rhetorical questions, I'll ask you something... why was the UN the good guy when it gave Israel the "go to proclaim itself", but all of a sudden the UN is wrong by having these resolutions against Israel? Do you know what two countries were the ONLY countries in 1987 to vote against a measure condemning terrorism in the strongest terms? United States and Israel... do you know why? Being the ignorant person that you are, I don't expect you to... so I'll tell you... it's because of the South African ally and what was going on there... and because of what was happening between Israel and Lebanon. But that's beside the point... point is that Israel has over 60 UN resolutions against it... and that's considering the fact that the U.S. pretty much owns the UN and the U.S. is usually the only one to have a veto against anything condemnig Israel or making Israel look bad. What happened after the Lavon Affair? Do you know that the U.S. government didn't want it to be thrown out in the media because it would make Israel look bad? If Israel has over 60 UN resolutions... you best believe Israel is fucking shit up, not adhering to international laws, and probably deserves even more resolutions...

3. I don't need to defend Palestinians. The issue at hand is Zionism. The movement began before it even involved the Palestinians. If you feel that all your arguments are being shattered left and right, which they are, then just accept that. And another thing, nobody said anything about Israel being the defendant... Israel is the aggressor, Palestinians are the ones on defense. Palestinians didn't come and illegally occupy your land, did they? Palestinians didn't bulldoze your homes, did they? Palestinians didn't build a wall ON your land, did they? Palestinians didn't create checkpoints for you, did they? In Afghanistan, the Mujahideen were driving out the Soviet occupation... in Iraq the "insurgents" (freedom fighters) are attempting to drive out the American occupation... and in Palestine, the Palestinians are trying to drive out the Israeli occupation. Make sense? Ok good. To answer your question... since you're just gonna keep whining... No I don't support all the actions taken by the Palestinian side. However, you gotta do whatever it takes to drive out an occupation... just like Israel is doing whatever it takes to protect its people.

lol...1."Defendant" in the Judicial sence.2.You don't have to be Palestinian to promote anti-Israeli propoganda,there are plenty of anti-Israeli people around the world ergo The UN resolutions at hand (and why not explain it also by the amount of Arab nations within the UN)3.How come there are no UN resolutions against terroristic atacks on Israel or against the misuse of support money for terroristic purposes- WHAT DOES THIS TELL US?-double standard...(even you claim to be against palestinian terrorism yet you support the UN only because it is against Israel- CONTRADICTION) .4.I wasn't the one to claim whether the UN was right or wrong, you are the one who openly supports it and keeps throwing these UN resolutions in my face.5. Israel is not the one that openly supports mass murder of civilians.6.Israel is not the one using international support money for purposes of terrorism.


p.s The issue at hand is objection to Israel's conduct since Palestinians are viewed as sheer victims and this is what I've disproved long ago,  you're the only one evading the argument.

1. Israel is not on trial here. I just simply pointed out the truth, and you try to argue against facts and truth. You're wasting your time. You can't disprove facts.

2. You're assuming that I somehow support the UN. Once again, all I did is simply point out that Israel had over 60 resolutions against it for numerous abuses of human rights and international law... that's a fact, you trying to argue against that with your opinions is irrelevant and simply put, it's bullshit that holds no ground.

3. You expect a UN resolution against Palestinian civilians who choose to fight the occupation and defend their homes from being bulldozed? LOL. Take that to the UN

4. All I said is Israel has over 60 UN resolutions against it. That's a fact. You trying to argue against facts is pointless. Zionists can't argue against facts that expose the sad conditions they impose on people.

5. Israel may not openly support it, but it does commit it. LOL "I'm not going to openly say that I support murder, but I'm going to kill you"

6. Israel is receiving billions of dollars from the U.S. each year, and it uses a tremendous amount of it's finances for military spending... and then it commits those atrocities that we all know about.

So Palestinians are not victims of Zionism? LOLLLL... wow... so all those people who have been killed, removed from their lands, kicked out of their homes, etc are not victims? You're irrational and blind to the truth.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 25, 2005, 05:32:53 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on October 25, 2005, 06:11:43 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 25, 2005, 09:24:47 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?

What the hell are you talking about? Have they approved it? LOL they're the ones doing it... the government bulldozes homes, not the military. That's like saying construction workers make the decision to build freeways.. and then asking "has the government approved that action by the construction workers?" LOL
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 26, 2005, 03:40:23 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)

lol@ UN resolutions against Israel, I wonder where are UN's resolutions against terrorism and misuse of support money for terroristic purposes? this only correlates with my little history brief . How come we don't discuss them?- wait, do they even exist?...Are these Israel's problems alone?
Coming from the guy who supports an authority that teaches children hate in schools and has them marching the streets with guns at grade school age, that supports killing civilians and preaches it openly, which expresses ambiguous massages being seemingly peace seeking outwards and calling for mass murder inwards, that supports fabrication of death or stimulation of it among it's own people for P.R. Yea....reality check homie!

1. There's nothing funny about UN resolutions against Israel.

2. As someone who supports the Israeli regime, there really is no room to talk about "what gets discussed, and what is hidden away". The Israeli soldiers shoot innocent journalists and reporters because they don't want the truth exposed. I've heard from several journalists first-hand that the soldiers were aiming at them, or would shoot at whatever homes they were staying at. There have also been occasions of the Israeli government telling Israeli journalists not to show certain footage. If you want figures of the number of deaths reported for each side... and what's exposed, and what's hidden.. check out..
www.ifamericansknew.org (http://www.ifamericansknew.org)
There are a lot of nice things there... take your time.

3. You're making the assumption that I support a certain "authority"... which I don't. Please, if your argument is being shattered left and right, don't start making assumptions about me. Just because I don't support the Zionist regime, doesn't mean I support terrorism because that would be hypocritical... since Zionism is terrorism. u

I've said over and over again that this is done... along with you... but you keep coming back like I stole something from you... I didn't... the only thing you're deprived of is the truth, and that honestly isn't my fault...  maybe you didn't understand me before, just likes arguemout the rest of this argument, so I shall say it again... PEACE... SHALOM.  :)

I feel like this is really coming full sircle man, you go back right to the begining of this argument after I've already responded to allegations like "Israeli soldiers killing journalists" and you're relying on the possibiliy people will simply be too damn lazy to go back to previous pages of this thread, avoiding it when it's still fresh and returning to it as soon as the argument is shifted into causes of the conflict and it's origin. Nice one, unfortunately not for someone who knowes how the Palestinian propaganda works....lol@ ifamericansknew.org only the title reeks with propaganda, claiming to know more than the next man about what goes down in the battle field. I've witnessed such shit in first person where by merely omitting one seemingly unimportant fact the entire occurrence is bestowed with an opposed meaning to what was really going on. This is what the Palestinian propaganda relies on. You're trying to bail out of this argument while trying to convince yourself that you somehow got the upper hand but then you're coming right back with the claims that have already been dealt with, this is embarrassing homie. But since you come up with more statements, from time to time, that you think might correlate with your argument  then I have more things to respond to. UN resolutions! let's talk about the UN- what do you reckon the UN to be? a moral compass? or is it a reflection of an international consensus? IF it is a reflection of the  international consensus, in your opinion, then it is based on democratic decisions, right?- But wait, there is representation of countries within the UN that do not uphold democracy within their own jurisdiction, how curious, wouldn't you say? isn't that somewhat of a conflict? ....But what IF you chose to reckon it as a moral compass, a thing I doubt, but still what if? you're the one who brought it up after all.
IF you think of the UN as of a moral compass when you were against Israel's existance to begin with as you have stated yourself then you are in contradiction with yourself once again. Who gave Israel the 'go' to proclaim itself huh (that is aside from Zionists)?- The UN.
I rest my case your honor.

p.s Why don't you explain now why the Palestinians do what they do (since you've fully focused on Israel's conduct up untill now)? Who said Israel has to be the defendant?
Or do you entirely support all actions taken by Palestinian terroristic power structures?-I don't believe that you do but then again, I'm asking this because up untill now you haven't enquired the Palestinian demeanor, NOT EVEN ONCE,do you know, or seek to know with similar eagerness, exactly what goes on behind the walls of the Palestinian establishment?
I've referenced both sides.

1. www.ifamericansknew.org  isn't a Palestinian website... it was started by an American lady named Alison Weir. She has been to Palestine (illegally occupied territories), and has seen everything first hand. She has written books on the matter, and has done all the research to put up on her website. You can't argue with facts, no matter how much you try to. There is nothing subjective about the information, it's all statistics. The only victim to propaganda is the one who is told that a wall is really a fence... and that's just the beginning of it.

2. LOL ignoring the bullshit argument filled with subjective rhetorical questions, I'll ask you something... why was the UN the good guy when it gave Israel the "go to proclaim itself", but all of a sudden the UN is wrong by having these resolutions against Israel? Do you know what two countries were the ONLY countries in 1987 to vote against a measure condemning terrorism in the strongest terms? United States and Israel... do you know why? Being the ignorant person that you are, I don't expect you to... so I'll tell you... it's because of the South African ally and what was going on there... and because of what was happening between Israel and Lebanon. But that's beside the point... point is that Israel has over 60 UN resolutions against it... and that's considering the fact that the U.S. pretty much owns the UN and the U.S. is usually the only one to have a veto against anything condemnig Israel or making Israel look bad. What happened after the Lavon Affair? Do you know that the U.S. government didn't want it to be thrown out in the media because it would make Israel look bad? If Israel has over 60 UN resolutions... you best believe Israel is fucking shit up, not adhering to international laws, and probably deserves even more resolutions...

3. I don't need to defend Palestinians. The issue at hand is Zionism. The movement began before it even involved the Palestinians. If you feel that all your arguments are being shattered left and right, which they are, then just accept that. And another thing, nobody said anything about Israel being the defendant... Israel is the aggressor, Palestinians are the ones on defense. Palestinians didn't come and illegally occupy your land, did they? Palestinians didn't bulldoze your homes, did they? Palestinians didn't build a wall ON your land, did they? Palestinians didn't create checkpoints for you, did they? In Afghanistan, the Mujahideen were driving out the Soviet occupation... in Iraq the "insurgents" (freedom fighters) are attempting to drive out the American occupation... and in Palestine, the Palestinians are trying to drive out the Israeli occupation. Make sense? Ok good. To answer your question... since you're just gonna keep whining... No I don't support all the actions taken by the Palestinian side. However, you gotta do whatever it takes to drive out an occupation... just like Israel is doing whatever it takes to protect its people.

lol...1."Defendant" in the Judicial sence.2.You don't have to be Palestinian to promote anti-Israeli propoganda,there are plenty of anti-Israeli people around the world ergo The UN resolutions at hand (and why not explain it also by the amount of Arab nations within the UN)3.How come there are no UN resolutions against terroristic atacks on Israel or against the misuse of support money for terroristic purposes- WHAT DOES THIS TELL US?-double standard...(even you claim to be against palestinian terrorism yet you support the UN only because it is against Israel- CONTRADICTION) .4.I wasn't the one to claim whether the UN was right or wrong, you are the one who openly supports it and keeps throwing these UN resolutions in my face.5. Israel is not the one that openly supports mass murder of civilians.6.Israel is not the one using international support money for purposes of terrorism.


p.s The issue at hand is objection to Israel's conduct since Palestinians are viewed as sheer victims and this is what I've disproved long ago,  you're the only one evading the argument.

1. Israel is not on trial here. I just simply pointed out the truth, and you try to argue against facts and truth. You're wasting your time. You can't disprove facts.

2. You're assuming that I somehow support the UN. Once again, all I did is simply point out that Israel had over 60 resolutions against it for numerous abuses of human rights and international law... that's a fact, you trying to argue against that with your opinions is irrelevant and simply put, it's bullshit that holds no ground.

3. You expect a UN resolution against Palestinian civilians who choose to fight the occupation and defend their homes from being bulldozed? LOL. Take that to the UN

4. All I said is Israel has over 60 UN resolutions against it. That's a fact. You trying to argue against facts is pointless. Zionists can't argue against facts that expose the sad conditions they impose on people.

5. Israel may not openly support it, but it does commit it. LOL "I'm not going to openly say that I support murder, but I'm going to kill you"

6. Israel is receiving billions of dollars from the U.S. each year, and it uses a tremendous amount of it's finances for military spending... and then it commits those atrocities that we all know about.

So Palestinians are not victims of Zionism? LOLLLL... wow... so all those people who have been killed, removed from their lands, kicked out of their homes, etc are not victims? You're irrational and blind to the truth.

1.Does the fact of Israel not being on trial allow you to omit important details concerning the conduct of the other side? in fact you openly refuse to analyze the causes to Israel's military coercion. I've never intended to disprove UN's resolutions,they are a fact, although I did prove based on these resolutions that the UN is in support of terrorism. The absence of such resolutions that condemn terrorism against Israel along with representatives of the UN condemning Palestinian acts of terrorism in the media should teach you something about the way UN operates. There are some resolutions concerning Lebanon and Israel's military operations along it's borders and within it's borders, for example, and Israel had been condemned, same goes for operations concerning Syria, yet Hizbalallahs operations and abductions aren't mentioned. Israel is condemned for deportation of certain Palestinian people, and I ask you what do you think was Israel's motive to deport particular people?- They complied to terrorist power structures.

2.I did not assume you support the UN since you view its resolutions as International Law which means you agree with its resolutions and you agree with its conduct meaning that you're in support of it and in contradiction with yourself since you claim to be against Palestinian terrorism and since UN was the one to formalize a state you think should've never been there to begin with.


3. Do you view suicide bombing as something that may assist the Palestinians in the achievement of their goals? Because if you do, you're in support of terrorism. People who recruit suicide bombers are the same people who preform unsupervised mass murder of their own "nation" to increase their death rate for P.R. And I'll say it again, if the Palestinian government was in fact against these people it could've handled them long ago, but they're interested in Israel handling them to show the world how Israel is invading their territory and does whatever the fuck it wants- even executing unsuspecting.... well-War criminals. How can you not see this?

4. When there is loss of innocent lives due to Israels actions it is deplorable but again this is something Israel is coerced to do since the Palestinians are not willing to condemn terrorism within themselves however Palestinian military actions hold as their goal to harm civilians.

5. Israel receives money from the U.S to maintain it's existence and yes that includes the military budget taken into consideration the risks Israel is facing but look what Israel had done with its funding throughout its short existence. Despite a constant threat to our existence we have here a stable first world state and that's in such a short time period, many nations struggle for centuries before they are stabilized . With the International support money Arafat recieved - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS - He could've created infrastructures and he could've built schools but the money went for terrorism at times when Oslo was supposed to be his main goal and in addition the Fatah received weapons from Israel to maintain order- NICELY DONE!. Oslo was just a tactical step for Arafat.


And after all this had been overlooked you're free to view Palestinians as victims. And they are indeed victims BUT NOT of Zionism but of their own leadership. I don't think I can expect from brainwashed Shahids who were tought from age 1 that it was a great honor to die in a pool of their Zionist enemy's blood to be mentally responsible for their actions, after all you go to heaven after that.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 26, 2005, 11:09:08 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)

lol@ UN resolutions against Israel, I wonder where are UN's resolutions against terrorism and misuse of support money for terroristic purposes? this only correlates with my little history brief . How come we don't discuss them?- wait, do they even exist?...Are these Israel's problems alone?
Coming from the guy who supports an authority that teaches children hate in schools and has them marching the streets with guns at grade school age, that supports killing civilians and preaches it openly, which expresses ambiguous massages being seemingly peace seeking outwards and calling for mass murder inwards, that supports fabrication of death or stimulation of it among it's own people for P.R. Yea....reality check homie!

1. There's nothing funny about UN resolutions against Israel.

2. As someone who supports the Israeli regime, there really is no room to talk about "what gets discussed, and what is hidden away". The Israeli soldiers shoot innocent journalists and reporters because they don't want the truth exposed. I've heard from several journalists first-hand that the soldiers were aiming at them, or would shoot at whatever homes they were staying at. There have also been occasions of the Israeli government telling Israeli journalists not to show certain footage. If you want figures of the number of deaths reported for each side... and what's exposed, and what's hidden.. check out..
www.ifamericansknew.org (http://www.ifamericansknew.org)
There are a lot of nice things there... take your time.

3. You're making the assumption that I support a certain "authority"... which I don't. Please, if your argument is being shattered left and right, don't start making assumptions about me. Just because I don't support the Zionist regime, doesn't mean I support terrorism because that would be hypocritical... since Zionism is terrorism. u

I've said over and over again that this is done... along with you... but you keep coming back like I stole something from you... I didn't... the only thing you're deprived of is the truth, and that honestly isn't my fault...  maybe you didn't understand me before, just likes arguemout the rest of this argument, so I shall say it again... PEACE... SHALOM.  :)

I feel like this is really coming full sircle man, you go back right to the begining of this argument after I've already responded to allegations like "Israeli soldiers killing journalists" and you're relying on the possibiliy people will simply be too damn lazy to go back to previous pages of this thread, avoiding it when it's still fresh and returning to it as soon as the argument is shifted into causes of the conflict and it's origin. Nice one, unfortunately not for someone who knowes how the Palestinian propaganda works....lol@ ifamericansknew.org only the title reeks with propaganda, claiming to know more than the next man about what goes down in the battle field. I've witnessed such shit in first person where by merely omitting one seemingly unimportant fact the entire occurrence is bestowed with an opposed meaning to what was really going on. This is what the Palestinian propaganda relies on. You're trying to bail out of this argument while trying to convince yourself that you somehow got the upper hand but then you're coming right back with the claims that have already been dealt with, this is embarrassing homie. But since you come up with more statements, from time to time, that you think might correlate with your argument  then I have more things to respond to. UN resolutions! let's talk about the UN- what do you reckon the UN to be? a moral compass? or is it a reflection of an international consensus? IF it is a reflection of the  international consensus, in your opinion, then it is based on democratic decisions, right?- But wait, there is representation of countries within the UN that do not uphold democracy within their own jurisdiction, how curious, wouldn't you say? isn't that somewhat of a conflict? ....But what IF you chose to reckon it as a moral compass, a thing I doubt, but still what if? you're the one who brought it up after all.
IF you think of the UN as of a moral compass when you were against Israel's existance to begin with as you have stated yourself then you are in contradiction with yourself once again. Who gave Israel the 'go' to proclaim itself huh (that is aside from Zionists)?- The UN.
I rest my case your honor.

p.s Why don't you explain now why the Palestinians do what they do (since you've fully focused on Israel's conduct up untill now)? Who said Israel has to be the defendant?
Or do you entirely support all actions taken by Palestinian terroristic power structures?-I don't believe that you do but then again, I'm asking this because up untill now you haven't enquired the Palestinian demeanor, NOT EVEN ONCE,do you know, or seek to know with similar eagerness, exactly what goes on behind the walls of the Palestinian establishment?
I've referenced both sides.

1. www.ifamericansknew.org  isn't a Palestinian website... it was started by an American lady named Alison Weir. She has been to Palestine (illegally occupied territories), and has seen everything first hand. She has written books on the matter, and has done all the research to put up on her website. You can't argue with facts, no matter how much you try to. There is nothing subjective about the information, it's all statistics. The only victim to propaganda is the one who is told that a wall is really a fence... and that's just the beginning of it.

2. LOL ignoring the bullshit argument filled with subjective rhetorical questions, I'll ask you something... why was the UN the good guy when it gave Israel the "go to proclaim itself", but all of a sudden the UN is wrong by having these resolutions against Israel? Do you know what two countries were the ONLY countries in 1987 to vote against a measure condemning terrorism in the strongest terms? United States and Israel... do you know why? Being the ignorant person that you are, I don't expect you to... so I'll tell you... it's because of the South African ally and what was going on there... and because of what was happening between Israel and Lebanon. But that's beside the point... point is that Israel has over 60 UN resolutions against it... and that's considering the fact that the U.S. pretty much owns the UN and the U.S. is usually the only one to have a veto against anything condemnig Israel or making Israel look bad. What happened after the Lavon Affair? Do you know that the U.S. government didn't want it to be thrown out in the media because it would make Israel look bad? If Israel has over 60 UN resolutions... you best believe Israel is fucking shit up, not adhering to international laws, and probably deserves even more resolutions...

3. I don't need to defend Palestinians. The issue at hand is Zionism. The movement began before it even involved the Palestinians. If you feel that all your arguments are being shattered left and right, which they are, then just accept that. And another thing, nobody said anything about Israel being the defendant... Israel is the aggressor, Palestinians are the ones on defense. Palestinians didn't come and illegally occupy your land, did they? Palestinians didn't bulldoze your homes, did they? Palestinians didn't build a wall ON your land, did they? Palestinians didn't create checkpoints for you, did they? In Afghanistan, the Mujahideen were driving out the Soviet occupation... in Iraq the "insurgents" (freedom fighters) are attempting to drive out the American occupation... and in Palestine, the Palestinians are trying to drive out the Israeli occupation. Make sense? Ok good. To answer your question... since you're just gonna keep whining... No I don't support all the actions taken by the Palestinian side. However, you gotta do whatever it takes to drive out an occupation... just like Israel is doing whatever it takes to protect its people.

lol...1."Defendant" in the Judicial sence.2.You don't have to be Palestinian to promote anti-Israeli propoganda,there are plenty of anti-Israeli people around the world ergo The UN resolutions at hand (and why not explain it also by the amount of Arab nations within the UN)3.How come there are no UN resolutions against terroristic atacks on Israel or against the misuse of support money for terroristic purposes- WHAT DOES THIS TELL US?-double standard...(even you claim to be against palestinian terrorism yet you support the UN only because it is against Israel- CONTRADICTION) .4.I wasn't the one to claim whether the UN was right or wrong, you are the one who openly supports it and keeps throwing these UN resolutions in my face.5. Israel is not the one that openly supports mass murder of civilians.6.Israel is not the one using international support money for purposes of terrorism.


p.s The issue at hand is objection to Israel's conduct since Palestinians are viewed as sheer victims and this is what I've disproved long ago,  you're the only one evading the argument.

1. Israel is not on trial here. I just simply pointed out the truth, and you try to argue against facts and truth. You're wasting your time. You can't disprove facts.

2. You're assuming that I somehow support the UN. Once again, all I did is simply point out that Israel had over 60 resolutions against it for numerous abuses of human rights and international law... that's a fact, you trying to argue against that with your opinions is irrelevant and simply put, it's bullshit that holds no ground.

3. You expect a UN resolution against Palestinian civilians who choose to fight the occupation and defend their homes from being bulldozed? LOL. Take that to the UN

4. All I said is Israel has over 60 UN resolutions against it. That's a fact. You trying to argue against facts is pointless. Zionists can't argue against facts that expose the sad conditions they impose on people.

5. Israel may not openly support it, but it does commit it. LOL "I'm not going to openly say that I support murder, but I'm going to kill you"

6. Israel is receiving billions of dollars from the U.S. each year, and it uses a tremendous amount of it's finances for military spending... and then it commits those atrocities that we all know about.

So Palestinians are not victims of Zionism? LOLLLL... wow... so all those people who have been killed, removed from their lands, kicked out of their homes, etc are not victims? You're irrational and blind to the truth.

1.the UN is in support of terrorism.
LOL.. you really must be lacking an argument when this is what you have stooped to.

2.I did not assume you support the UN since you view its resolutions as International Law which means you agree with its resolutions and you agree with its conduct meaning that you're in support of it and in contradiction with yourself since you claim to be against Palestinian terrorism and since UN was the one to formalize a state you think should've never been there to begin with.
In your mind, I either have to whole-heartedly agree or disagree with someone or something... I can't like certain aspects. I don't see it that way. For example, I don't really like American foreign policy, but I still think it's the greatest country to live in. I could actually use your way of looking at this and say that you're contradicting because you support and agree with the UN when they formalized the state of Israel but now you disagree with the resolutions. You see... it's the same shit you applied to me, but reversed. But fuck that... I'll even agree with you... The UN does support terrorism... it did formalize the terrorist state of Israel.  :) Take your lines and spit em back at you.  8)


3. Do you view suicide bombing as something that may assist the Palestinians in the achievement of their goals? Because if you do, you're in support of terrorism. People who recruit suicide bombers are the same people who preform unsupervised mass murder of their own "nation" to increase their death rate for P.R. And I'll say it again, if the Palestinian government was in fact against these people it could've handled them long ago, but they're interested in Israel handling them to show the world how Israel is invading their territory and does whatever the fuck it wants- even executing unsuspecting.... well-War criminals. How can you not see this?
LOL what the fuck. You're going off on tangents. You said you expect UN resolutions against the actions of Palestinian civilians. I said go take it to the UN. Now you're telling me that I support terrorism if I view the Palestinians actions as achievements of their goals. Do I agree with everything the Palestinians do? No but what the fuck does that matter... it has nothing to do with the argument at hand.

4. When there is loss of innocent lives due to Israels actions it is deplorable but again this is something Israel is coerced to do since the Palestinians are not willing to condemn terrorism within themselves however Palestinian military actions hold as their goal to harm civilians.
As I've stated before, I don't agree with everything the Palestinians do, but that has nothing to do with the argument.

5. Israel receives money from the U.S to maintain it's existence and yes that includes the military budget taken into consideration the risks Israel is facing but look what Israel had done with its funding throughout its short existence. Despite a constant threat to our existence we have here a stable first world state and that's in such a short time period, many nations struggle for centuries before they are stabilized . With the International support money Arafat recieved - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS - He could've created infrastructures and he could've built schools but the money went for terrorism at times when Oslo was supposed to be his main goal and in addition the Fatah received weapons from Israel to maintain order- NICELY DONE!. Oslo was just a tactical step for Arafat.
Israel has done good for itself.. Arafat was an idiot... I agree, but what's your point? You can't stick to the argument.


And after all this had been overlooked you're free to view Palestinians as victims. And they are indeed victims BUT NOT of Zionism but of their own leadership. I don't think I can expect from brainwashed Shahids who were tought from age 1 that it was a great honor to die in a pool of their Zionist enemy's blood to be mentally responsible for their actions, after all you go to heaven after that.
I didn't overlook anything. You've got to be an idiot to say that Palestinians are not victims of Zionism... honestly. So the fact that all these people were killed since the beginning of the 20th century, the fact that they were kicked out of their homes, their homes bulldozed, etc... is the Palestinians own fault? Talk about brainwashed. LOL... and since you can't uphold an argument, you think that I must've been "taught from age 1 to blow myself up"... yeah, that's what we learn in schools out in Europe and America. Retard... you're pathetic. You lose an argument and it's obvious you're left with nothing else to say... I'm starting to feel sorry for you. Anyways, I keep fucking you up, and you keep coming back in hope of gaining something back... sorry buddy... you're outta luck here. I'm not even gonna respond anymore... you have nothing to base your arguments on, and I got midterms coming up. SHALOM.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on October 26, 2005, 11:32:50 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?
why do they cover up their soldier's abuses? and why don't they disciplin those who commit abuses? they only logical explantion is that they support such abuses.....
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 26, 2005, 11:43:59 AM
Another falafel stand blown up...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 26, 2005, 11:51:44 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)

lol@ UN resolutions against Israel, I wonder where are UN's resolutions against terrorism and misuse of support money for terroristic purposes? this only correlates with my little history brief . How come we don't discuss them?- wait, do they even exist?...Are these Israel's problems alone?
Coming from the guy who supports an authority that teaches children hate in schools and has them marching the streets with guns at grade school age, that supports killing civilians and preaches it openly, which expresses ambiguous massages being seemingly peace seeking outwards and calling for mass murder inwards, that supports fabrication of death or stimulation of it among it's own people for P.R. Yea....reality check homie!

1. There's nothing funny about UN resolutions against Israel.

2. As someone who supports the Israeli regime, there really is no room to talk about "what gets discussed, and what is hidden away". The Israeli soldiers shoot innocent journalists and reporters because they don't want the truth exposed. I've heard from several journalists first-hand that the soldiers were aiming at them, or would shoot at whatever homes they were staying at. There have also been occasions of the Israeli government telling Israeli journalists not to show certain footage. If you want figures of the number of deaths reported for each side... and what's exposed, and what's hidden.. check out..
www.ifamericansknew.org (http://www.ifamericansknew.org)
There are a lot of nice things there... take your time.

3. You're making the assumption that I support a certain "authority"... which I don't. Please, if your argument is being shattered left and right, don't start making assumptions about me. Just because I don't support the Zionist regime, doesn't mean I support terrorism because that would be hypocritical... since Zionism is terrorism. u

I've said over and over again that this is done... along with you... but you keep coming back like I stole something from you... I didn't... the only thing you're deprived of is the truth, and that honestly isn't my fault...  maybe you didn't understand me before, just likes arguemout the rest of this argument, so I shall say it again... PEACE... SHALOM.  :)

I feel like this is really coming full sircle man, you go back right to the begining of this argument after I've already responded to allegations like "Israeli soldiers killing journalists" and you're relying on the possibiliy people will simply be too damn lazy to go back to previous pages of this thread, avoiding it when it's still fresh and returning to it as soon as the argument is shifted into causes of the conflict and it's origin. Nice one, unfortunately not for someone who knowes how the Palestinian propaganda works....lol@ ifamericansknew.org only the title reeks with propaganda, claiming to know more than the next man about what goes down in the battle field. I've witnessed such shit in first person where by merely omitting one seemingly unimportant fact the entire occurrence is bestowed with an opposed meaning to what was really going on. This is what the Palestinian propaganda relies on. You're trying to bail out of this argument while trying to convince yourself that you somehow got the upper hand but then you're coming right back with the claims that have already been dealt with, this is embarrassing homie. But since you come up with more statements, from time to time, that you think might correlate with your argument  then I have more things to respond to. UN resolutions! let's talk about the UN- what do you reckon the UN to be? a moral compass? or is it a reflection of an international consensus? IF it is a reflection of the  international consensus, in your opinion, then it is based on democratic decisions, right?- But wait, there is representation of countries within the UN that do not uphold democracy within their own jurisdiction, how curious, wouldn't you say? isn't that somewhat of a conflict? ....But what IF you chose to reckon it as a moral compass, a thing I doubt, but still what if? you're the one who brought it up after all.
IF you think of the UN as of a moral compass when you were against Israel's existance to begin with as you have stated yourself then you are in contradiction with yourself once again. Who gave Israel the 'go' to proclaim itself huh (that is aside from Zionists)?- The UN.
I rest my case your honor.

p.s Why don't you explain now why the Palestinians do what they do (since you've fully focused on Israel's conduct up untill now)? Who said Israel has to be the defendant?
Or do you entirely support all actions taken by Palestinian terroristic power structures?-I don't believe that you do but then again, I'm asking this because up untill now you haven't enquired the Palestinian demeanor, NOT EVEN ONCE,do you know, or seek to know with similar eagerness, exactly what goes on behind the walls of the Palestinian establishment?
I've referenced both sides.

1. www.ifamericansknew.org  isn't a Palestinian website... it was started by an American lady named Alison Weir. She has been to Palestine (illegally occupied territories), and has seen everything first hand. She has written books on the matter, and has done all the research to put up on her website. You can't argue with facts, no matter how much you try to. There is nothing subjective about the information, it's all statistics. The only victim to propaganda is the one who is told that a wall is really a fence... and that's just the beginning of it.

2. LOL ignoring the bullshit argument filled with subjective rhetorical questions, I'll ask you something... why was the UN the good guy when it gave Israel the "go to proclaim itself", but all of a sudden the UN is wrong by having these resolutions against Israel? Do you know what two countries were the ONLY countries in 1987 to vote against a measure condemning terrorism in the strongest terms? United States and Israel... do you know why? Being the ignorant person that you are, I don't expect you to... so I'll tell you... it's because of the South African ally and what was going on there... and because of what was happening between Israel and Lebanon. But that's beside the point... point is that Israel has over 60 UN resolutions against it... and that's considering the fact that the U.S. pretty much owns the UN and the U.S. is usually the only one to have a veto against anything condemnig Israel or making Israel look bad. What happened after the Lavon Affair? Do you know that the U.S. government didn't want it to be thrown out in the media because it would make Israel look bad? If Israel has over 60 UN resolutions... you best believe Israel is fucking shit up, not adhering to international laws, and probably deserves even more resolutions...

3. I don't need to defend Palestinians. The issue at hand is Zionism. The movement began before it even involved the Palestinians. If you feel that all your arguments are being shattered left and right, which they are, then just accept that. And another thing, nobody said anything about Israel being the defendant... Israel is the aggressor, Palestinians are the ones on defense. Palestinians didn't come and illegally occupy your land, did they? Palestinians didn't bulldoze your homes, did they? Palestinians didn't build a wall ON your land, did they? Palestinians didn't create checkpoints for you, did they? In Afghanistan, the Mujahideen were driving out the Soviet occupation... in Iraq the "insurgents" (freedom fighters) are attempting to drive out the American occupation... and in Palestine, the Palestinians are trying to drive out the Israeli occupation. Make sense? Ok good. To answer your question... since you're just gonna keep whining... No I don't support all the actions taken by the Palestinian side. However, you gotta do whatever it takes to drive out an occupation... just like Israel is doing whatever it takes to protect its people.

lol...1."Defendant" in the Judicial sence.2.You don't have to be Palestinian to promote anti-Israeli propoganda,there are plenty of anti-Israeli people around the world ergo The UN resolutions at hand (and why not explain it also by the amount of Arab nations within the UN)3.How come there are no UN resolutions against terroristic atacks on Israel or against the misuse of support money for terroristic purposes- WHAT DOES THIS TELL US?-double standard...(even you claim to be against palestinian terrorism yet you support the UN only because it is against Israel- CONTRADICTION) .4.I wasn't the one to claim whether the UN was right or wrong, you are the one who openly supports it and keeps throwing these UN resolutions in my face.5. Israel is not the one that openly supports mass murder of civilians.6.Israel is not the one using international support money for purposes of terrorism.


p.s The issue at hand is objection to Israel's conduct since Palestinians are viewed as sheer victims and this is what I've disproved long ago,  you're the only one evading the argument.

1. Israel is not on trial here. I just simply pointed out the truth, and you try to argue against facts and truth. You're wasting your time. You can't disprove facts.

2. You're assuming that I somehow support the UN. Once again, all I did is simply point out that Israel had over 60 resolutions against it for numerous abuses of human rights and international law... that's a fact, you trying to argue against that with your opinions is irrelevant and simply put, it's bullshit that holds no ground.

3. You expect a UN resolution against Palestinian civilians who choose to fight the occupation and defend their homes from being bulldozed? LOL. Take that to the UN

4. All I said is Israel has over 60 UN resolutions against it. That's a fact. You trying to argue against facts is pointless. Zionists can't argue against facts that expose the sad conditions they impose on people.

5. Israel may not openly support it, but it does commit it. LOL "I'm not going to openly say that I support murder, but I'm going to kill you"

6. Israel is receiving billions of dollars from the U.S. each year, and it uses a tremendous amount of it's finances for military spending... and then it commits those atrocities that we all know about.

So Palestinians are not victims of Zionism? LOLLLL... wow... so all those people who have been killed, removed from their lands, kicked out of their homes, etc are not victims? You're irrational and blind to the truth.

1.the UN is in support of terrorism.
LOL.. you really must be lacking an argument when this is what you have stooped to.

2.I did not assume you support the UN since you view its resolutions as International Law which means you agree with its resolutions and you agree with its conduct meaning that you're in support of it and in contradiction with yourself since you claim to be against Palestinian terrorism and since UN was the one to formalize a state you think should've never been there to begin with.
In your mind, I either have to whole-heartedly agree or disagree with someone or something... I can't like certain aspects. I don't see it that way. For example, I don't really like American foreign policy, but I still think it's the greatest country to live in. I could actually use your way of looking at this and say that you're contradicting because you support and agree with the UN when they formalized the state of Israel but now you disagree with the resolutions. You see... it's the same shit you applied to me, but reversed. But fuck that... I'll even agree with you... The UN does support terrorism... it did formalize the terrorist state of Israel.  :) Take your lines and spit em back at you.  8)


3. Do you view suicide bombing as something that may assist the Palestinians in the achievement of their goals? Because if you do, you're in support of terrorism. People who recruit suicide bombers are the same people who preform unsupervised mass murder of their own "nation" to increase their death rate for P.R. And I'll say it again, if the Palestinian government was in fact against these people it could've handled them long ago, but they're interested in Israel handling them to show the world how Israel is invading their territory and does whatever the fuck it wants- even executing unsuspecting.... well-War criminals. How can you not see this?
LOL what the fuck. You're going off on tangents. You said you expect UN resolutions against the actions of Palestinian civilians. I said go take it to the UN. Now you're telling me that I support terrorism if I view the Palestinians actions as achievements of their goals. Do I agree with everything the Palestinians do? No but what the fuck does that matter... it has nothing to do with the argument at hand.

4. When there is loss of innocent lives due to Israels actions it is deplorable but again this is something Israel is coerced to do since the Palestinians are not willing to condemn terrorism within themselves however Palestinian military actions hold as their goal to harm civilians.
As I've stated before, I don't agree with everything the Palestinians do, but that has nothing to do with the argument.

5. Israel receives money from the U.S to maintain it's existence and yes that includes the military budget taken into consideration the risks Israel is facing but look what Israel had done with its funding throughout its short existence. Despite a constant threat to our existence we have here a stable first world state and that's in such a short time period, many nations struggle for centuries before they are stabilized . With the International support money Arafat recieved - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS - He could've created infrastructures and he could've built schools but the money went for terrorism at times when Oslo was supposed to be his main goal and in addition the Fatah received weapons from Israel to maintain order- NICELY DONE!. Oslo was just a tactical step for Arafat.
Israel has done good for itself.. Arafat was an idiot... I agree, but what's your point? You can't stick to the argument.


And after all this had been overlooked you're free to view Palestinians as victims. And they are indeed victims BUT NOT of Zionism but of their own leadership. I don't think I can expect from brainwashed Shahids who were tought from age 1 that it was a great honor to die in a pool of their Zionist enemy's blood to be mentally responsible for their actions, after all you go to heaven after that.
I didn't overlook anything. You've got to be an idiot to say that Palestinians are not victims of Zionism... honestly. So the fact that all these people were killed since the beginning of the 20th century, the fact that they were kicked out of their homes, their homes bulldozed, etc... is the Palestinians own fault? Talk about brainwashed. LOL... and since you can't uphold an argument, you think that I must've been "taught from age 1 to blow myself up"... yeah, that's what we learn in schools out in Europe and America. Retard... you're pathetic. You lose an argument and it's obvious you're left with nothing else to say... I'm starting to feel sorry for you. Anyways, I keep fucking you up, and you keep coming back in hope of gaining something back... sorry buddy... you're outta luck here. I'm not even gonna respond anymore... you have nothing to base your arguments on, and I got midterms coming up. SHALOM.

LMAO@This entire post man, how in GOD's name did you conclude I was refering TO YOU when I was talking about Palestinian SHAHIDS? DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF TO BE A SHAHID??....Do you have reading comprehension problems??! Or do you like arguing so much it is clouding your ability to think or are you looking for a way to bail out of this debate since you failed to get your point across ?...."yeah, that's what we learn in schools out in Europe and America"-OH MY GOD is this what you understood from my post?? Did you think I was comparing you to a Shahid?....You are truly a funny guy. BTW....Do you know what "casting" is in psychology?- It is when you precieve something as unclear and while trying to fit it into a pattern you cast your own thoughts on the input.
Unlike you mate I do not need to insult the person I'm debating to feel confident in my argument.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 26, 2005, 12:03:10 PM
Another falafel stand blown up...

Does mentioning it make you think it will help you look more objective?....
and here is more yesterday they Kassamed my neighbor town Shderot again, you don't see me starting a thread every time one more attack happens(Like almost every day), Palestinians are the ones worried so much about their death rates' prominence.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 26, 2005, 12:31:46 PM
And something I forgot to state.
You agree with the 5th Paragraph of my post? that's great, I'm rejoiced, really this is the closest we've been to some progress. Problem is you don't see how a waste of billions of dollars on terrorism instead of spending the money on bettering the life of the Palestinian people has anything to do with the way things are today for them.
The way Arafat conducted himself and the people who relied on him is merely a repetition of the usual leadership misconduct of Palestinian leaders\so called "freedom fighters" only on a much larger scale with much more sophistication.


P.S About fully agreeing or disagreeing with things this is why I asked you before "How you view the UN"- As a moral compass or as a reflection of international consensus? you dodged the question by saying you're 'ignoring' my 'bullshit rhetorical questions." you refused to answer because you thought your answer would give you away, you would have to admit what the UN means for you but from what you're saying now I understand it doesn't mean shit to you and you were merely using its resolutions to propagate your point of view with these resolutions being your "proof of Israel fucking up " brilliant!!
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on October 27, 2005, 12:01:32 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?

What the hell are you talking about? Have they approved it? LOL they're the ones doing it... the government bulldozes homes, not the military. That's like saying construction workers make the decision to build freeways.. and then asking "has the government approved that action by the construction workers?" LOL


You ignored my question. Is that your signature method of debating? Like I asked, has the government openly admitted to intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians or not? If they haven't, there is no possible way you can prove it, everything else is just speculation...That's what I'm talkin' about.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 27, 2005, 02:51:00 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?

What the hell are you talking about? Have they approved it? LOL they're the ones doing it... the government bulldozes homes, not the military. That's like saying construction workers make the decision to build freeways.. and then asking "has the government approved that action by the construction workers?" LOL


You ignored my question. Is that your signature method of debating? Like I asked, has the government openly admitted to intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians or not? If they haven't, there is no possible way you can prove it, everything else is just speculation...That's what I'm talkin' about.

No the government hasn't openly admitted to it... but what government would? If the government tries to hide the shit it does... then why would it just openly admit something? There is no possible way I can prove it for the present. However, you made 2 points in your original statement, the other being that about the bulldozing of homes. That's what I addressed... that's what I argued... I didn't argue the part about killing civilians...  you're ignoring your own comments... I didn't ignore anything...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 27, 2005, 03:09:46 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?

What the hell are you talking about? Have they approved it? LOL they're the ones doing it... the government bulldozes homes, not the military. That's like saying construction workers make the decision to build freeways.. and then asking "has the government approved that action by the construction workers?" LOL


You ignored my question. Is that your signature method of debating? Like I asked, has the government openly admitted to intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians or not? If they haven't, there is no possible way you can prove it, everything else is just speculation...That's what I'm talkin' about.

No the government hasn't openly admitted to it... but what government would? If the government tries to hide the shit it does... then why would it just openly admit something? There is no possible way I can prove it for the present. However, you made 2 points in your original statement, the other being that about the bulldozing of homes. That's what I addressed... that's what I argued... I didn't argue the part about killing civilians...  you're ignoring your own comments... I didn't ignore anything...

Let's clear something out, Israel does not bulldoze homes cause the IDF or the Israeli government feel like it, if this was the case I don't believe there would be a single building left standing on Palestinian territory. However Israel does uphold a penal policy in the address of those who choose to comply with terrorist power structures. How would you choose to supply observed negative reinforcement to up and coming suicide bombers(that high percentage among Palestinian youth that dreams about becoming Shahids)?? Israel does not demolish homes just for the heck of it.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 27, 2005, 03:17:50 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?

What the hell are you talking about? Have they approved it? LOL they're the ones doing it... the government bulldozes homes, not the military. That's like saying construction workers make the decision to build freeways.. and then asking "has the government approved that action by the construction workers?" LOL


You ignored my question. Is that your signature method of debating? Like I asked, has the government openly admitted to intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians or not? If they haven't, there is no possible way you can prove it, everything else is just speculation...That's what I'm talkin' about.

No the government hasn't openly admitted to it... but what government would? If the government tries to hide the shit it does... then why would it just openly admit something? There is no possible way I can prove it for the present. However, you made 2 points in your original statement, the other being that about the bulldozing of homes. That's what I addressed... that's what I argued... I didn't argue the part about killing civilians...  you're ignoring your own comments... I didn't ignore anything...

Let's clear something out, Israel does not bulldoze homes cause the IDF or the Israeli government feel like it, if this was the case I don't believe there would be a single building left standing on Palestinian territory. However Israel does uphold a penal policy in the address of those who choose to comply with terrorist power structures. How would you choose to supply observed negative reinforcement to up and coming suicide bombers(that high percentage among Palestinian youth that dreams about becoming Shahids)?? Israel does not demolish homes just for the heck of it.


LOL the way you try to justify these things is hilarious.... what gives Israel the right to go into Palestinian territory, and demolish the homes of Palestinians? Actually.... homes were demolished because they were "in the way" of the wall built.... in addition to the land stolen, etc... LOL get the fuck outta here man
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 27, 2005, 03:36:11 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?

What the hell are you talking about? Have they approved it? LOL they're the ones doing it... the government bulldozes homes, not the military. That's like saying construction workers make the decision to build freeways.. and then asking "has the government approved that action by the construction workers?" LOL


You ignored my question. Is that your signature method of debating? Like I asked, has the government openly admitted to intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians or not? If they haven't, there is no possible way you can prove it, everything else is just speculation...That's what I'm talkin' about.

No the government hasn't openly admitted to it... but what government would? If the government tries to hide the shit it does... then why would it just openly admit something? There is no possible way I can prove it for the present. However, you made 2 points in your original statement, the other being that about the bulldozing of homes. That's what I addressed... that's what I argued... I didn't argue the part about killing civilians...  you're ignoring your own comments... I didn't ignore anything...

Let's clear something out, Israel does not bulldoze homes cause the IDF or the Israeli government feel like it, if this was the case I don't believe there would be a single building left standing on Palestinian territory. However Israel does uphold a penal policy in the address of those who choose to comply with terrorist power structures. How would you choose to supply observed negative reinforcement to up and coming suicide bombers(that high percentage among Palestinian youth that dreams about becoming Shahids)?? Israel does not demolish homes just for the heck of it.


LOL the way you try to justify these things is hilarious.... what gives Israel the right to go into Palestinian territory, and demolish the homes of Palestinians? Actually.... homes were demolished because they were "in the way" of the wall built.... in addition to the land stolen, etc... LOL get the fuck outta here man

What gives Israel the right??? Are you worried more about some terrorist's house than you are worried about the lives of Israeli civilians?Well of course you are, I almost forgot who I'm talking to. And I do not need to justify shit man, these terrorists are the ones doing it for me.What gives them a right to send brainwashed fucktards to blow themselves up on Israeli civilians?
Man you're lost in your own bullshit, you keep contradicting yourself time after time, one moment you're against suicide bombing next moment you're worried more about terrorists homes than you are about human lives, the normal humans, not the ones that decide to die and to take along with them more people. Did you know that thanks to this policy there were cases when Palestinian families that knew their sons were about to blow themselves up submited them to the IDF preventing many losses of human lives? I know of at least 20 cases....tell me it wasn't worth it you hypocrite.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 27, 2005, 03:47:37 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?

What the hell are you talking about? Have they approved it? LOL they're the ones doing it... the government bulldozes homes, not the military. That's like saying construction workers make the decision to build freeways.. and then asking "has the government approved that action by the construction workers?" LOL


You ignored my question. Is that your signature method of debating? Like I asked, has the government openly admitted to intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians or not? If they haven't, there is no possible way you can prove it, everything else is just speculation...That's what I'm talkin' about.

No the government hasn't openly admitted to it... but what government would? If the government tries to hide the shit it does... then why would it just openly admit something? There is no possible way I can prove it for the present. However, you made 2 points in your original statement, the other being that about the bulldozing of homes. That's what I addressed... that's what I argued... I didn't argue the part about killing civilians...  you're ignoring your own comments... I didn't ignore anything...

Let's clear something out, Israel does not bulldoze homes cause the IDF or the Israeli government feel like it, if this was the case I don't believe there would be a single building left standing on Palestinian territory. However Israel does uphold a penal policy in the address of those who choose to comply with terrorist power structures. How would you choose to supply observed negative reinforcement to up and coming suicide bombers(that high percentage among Palestinian youth that dreams about becoming Shahids)?? Israel does not demolish homes just for the heck of it.


LOL the way you try to justify these things is hilarious.... what gives Israel the right to go into Palestinian territory, and demolish the homes of Palestinians? Actually.... homes were demolished because they were "in the way" of the wall built.... in addition to the land stolen, etc... LOL get the fuck outta here man

What gives Israel the right??? Are you worried more about some terrorist's house than you are worried about the lives of Israeli civilians?Well of course you are, I almost forgot who I'm talking to. And I do not need to justify shit man, these terrorists are the ones doing it for me.What gives them a right to send brainwashed fucktards to blow themselves up on Israeli civilians?
Man you're lost in your own bullshit, you keep contradicting yourself time after time, one moment you're against suicide bombing next moment you're worried more about terrorists homes than you are about human lives, the normal humans, not the ones that decide to die and to take along with them more people. Did you know that thanks to this policy there were cases when Palestinian families that knew their sons were about to blow themselves up submited them to the IDF preventing many losses of human lives? I know of at least 20 cases....tell me it wasn't worth it you hypocrite.

1. Israel has no right to demolish the homes of Palestinian homes... and you haven't been able to show that it has the RIGHT... your reasoning for why you feel it's a good thing doesn't mean it's justified...

2. You're assuming that ONLY the homes of terrorists are being demolished, which is not the case. Even if it were... a terrorist has a family, and you can't punish an entire family for the action of one member.

3. Obviously they don't have the RIGHT to go and blow up shit. That's what makes them "terrorists"... do you see the difference between the terrorists and the Israeli government? If you say there's a difference, then I agree because a government is supposed to adhere to laws... if you say there's no difference, I'd still agree.

4. According to your logic... or lack of one... it's okay to kill someone because you believe there's a chance that in the future that person might kill you... try that in court (you know the place where they look at and observe laws... I hope you know what laws are)

edit: p.s. NONE of what you've said even touches upon why it's okay for Israel to demolish homes on Palestinian land... to make room for a wall being built on Palestinian land...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on October 27, 2005, 04:08:45 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?

What the hell are you talking about? Have they approved it? LOL they're the ones doing it... the government bulldozes homes, not the military. That's like saying construction workers make the decision to build freeways.. and then asking "has the government approved that action by the construction workers?" LOL


You ignored my question. Is that your signature method of debating? Like I asked, has the government openly admitted to intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians or not? If they haven't, there is no possible way you can prove it, everything else is just speculation...That's what I'm talkin' about.

No the government hasn't openly admitted to it... but what government would? If the government tries to hide the shit it does... then why would it just openly admit something? There is no possible way I can prove it for the present. However, you made 2 points in your original statement, the other being that about the bulldozing of homes. That's what I addressed... that's what I argued... I didn't argue the part about killing civilians...  you're ignoring your own comments... I didn't ignore anything...


Regardless, you're arguing about something you can't PROVE...How can you win like that?
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 27, 2005, 04:17:23 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?

What the hell are you talking about? Have they approved it? LOL they're the ones doing it... the government bulldozes homes, not the military. That's like saying construction workers make the decision to build freeways.. and then asking "has the government approved that action by the construction workers?" LOL


You ignored my question. Is that your signature method of debating? Like I asked, has the government openly admitted to intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians or not? If they haven't, there is no possible way you can prove it, everything else is just speculation...That's what I'm talkin' about.

No the government hasn't openly admitted to it... but what government would? If the government tries to hide the shit it does... then why would it just openly admit something? There is no possible way I can prove it for the present. However, you made 2 points in your original statement, the other being that about the bulldozing of homes. That's what I addressed... that's what I argued... I didn't argue the part about killing civilians...  you're ignoring your own comments... I didn't ignore anything...

Let's clear something out, Israel does not bulldoze homes cause the IDF or the Israeli government feel like it, if this was the case I don't believe there would be a single building left standing on Palestinian territory. However Israel does uphold a penal policy in the address of those who choose to comply with terrorist power structures. How would you choose to supply observed negative reinforcement to up and coming suicide bombers(that high percentage among Palestinian youth that dreams about becoming Shahids)?? Israel does not demolish homes just for the heck of it.


LOL the way you try to justify these things is hilarious.... what gives Israel the right to go into Palestinian territory, and demolish the homes of Palestinians? Actually.... homes were demolished because they were "in the way" of the wall built.... in addition to the land stolen, etc... LOL get the fuck outta here man

What gives Israel the right??? Are you worried more about some terrorist's house than you are worried about the lives of Israeli civilians?Well of course you are, I almost forgot who I'm talking to. And I do not need to justify shit man, these terrorists are the ones doing it for me.What gives them a right to send brainwashed fucktards to blow themselves up on Israeli civilians?
Man you're lost in your own bullshit, you keep contradicting yourself time after time, one moment you're against suicide bombing next moment you're worried more about terrorists homes than you are about human lives, the normal humans, not the ones that decide to die and to take along with them more people. Did you know that thanks to this policy there were cases when Palestinian families that knew their sons were about to blow themselves up submited them to the IDF preventing many losses of human lives? I know of at least 20 cases....tell me it wasn't worth it you hypocrite.

1. Israel has no right to demolish the homes of Palestinian homes... and you haven't been able to show that it has the RIGHT... your reasoning for why you feel it's a good thing doesn't mean it's justified...

2. You're assuming that ONLY the homes of terrorists are being demolished, which is not the case. Even if it were... a terrorist has a family, and you can't punish an entire family for the action of one member.

3. Obviously they don't have the RIGHT to go and blow up shit. That's what makes them "terrorists"... do you see the difference between the terrorists and the Israeli government? If you say there's a difference, then I agree because a government is supposed to adhere to laws... if you say there's no difference, I'd still agree.

4. According to your logic... or lack of one... it's okay to kill someone because you believe there's a chance that in the future that person might kill you... try that in court (you know the place where they look at and observe laws... I hope you know what laws are)



1. What I feel??? man I haven't even started talking about my feelings on the issue. As for rights- Israel has the right to defend its civilians from terrorist atacks and Israel has the right to prevent such atacks. Being that the Palestinian authority proves itself to be impotent or non-willing to prevent such assaults, Israel has even more than a right IT HAS A MORAL OBLIGATION TO DO WHATEVER IS IN ITS POWER TO DEFUSE SUCH ENDEAVORS.

2.Since you are not sure whether only the homes of terrorists are being demolished, why are you even commenting on this? for the sake of speculation?...-Well of course.
How else would you punish a person that decided to commit mass murder along with a suicide? Would you kill him again? Israel supplies observed negative reinforcement for likely to emerge future bombers and for their families, there's no other treatment except for from within the Palestinian authority which they are not willing to inflict.

3.You're damn right they don't have the right to blow up Israeli civilians although I know that you are saying it only for the sake of political correctness. And there IS a huge difference between terrorists and governments in most of the world but in the Palestinian Autonomy these structures seem to be accomplices.

4. How in hell did you conclude that according to my logic it is OK to kill people in advance to their crime? STOP PUTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH, go argue with yourself man you seem to be in disagreement with your own bullshit.

P.S As for the fence\wall or whatever you choose to call it, I've already expressed my thoughts on it and you know that I greatly oppose it, unless you simply ignored my posts something I believe you may have done. I don't need to justify it though since I believe it will be much more harmful to Israel.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 27, 2005, 04:20:48 PM
What do you mean "regardless"? LOL after you're proven wrong... then you try to pull something else up...

What am I arguing that I can't prove? My whole argument is that Palestinians have been victims of Zionism.

Have innocent Palestinians been killed? Yes.
Has Israel demolished homes of innocent people? Yes.
Does every Palestinian refugee have the right to return to his home? No.

Those are all facts. That's all I'm arguing. You're the one that claims that the Israeli government has nothing to do with the demolishing of homes and that it's all in the hands of the soldiers... which is the dumbest thing I've read in this thread... and that's saying a lot considering that I Geezy has been making quite a few posts.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 27, 2005, 04:33:27 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?

What the hell are you talking about? Have they approved it? LOL they're the ones doing it... the government bulldozes homes, not the military. That's like saying construction workers make the decision to build freeways.. and then asking "has the government approved that action by the construction workers?" LOL


You ignored my question. Is that your signature method of debating? Like I asked, has the government openly admitted to intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians or not? If they haven't, there is no possible way you can prove it, everything else is just speculation...That's what I'm talkin' about.

No the government hasn't openly admitted to it... but what government would? If the government tries to hide the shit it does... then why would it just openly admit something? There is no possible way I can prove it for the present. However, you made 2 points in your original statement, the other being that about the bulldozing of homes. That's what I addressed... that's what I argued... I didn't argue the part about killing civilians...  you're ignoring your own comments... I didn't ignore anything...

Let's clear something out, Israel does not bulldoze homes cause the IDF or the Israeli government feel like it, if this was the case I don't believe there would be a single building left standing on Palestinian territory. However Israel does uphold a penal policy in the address of those who choose to comply with terrorist power structures. How would you choose to supply observed negative reinforcement to up and coming suicide bombers(that high percentage among Palestinian youth that dreams about becoming Shahids)?? Israel does not demolish homes just for the heck of it.


LOL the way you try to justify these things is hilarious.... what gives Israel the right to go into Palestinian territory, and demolish the homes of Palestinians? Actually.... homes were demolished because they were "in the way" of the wall built.... in addition to the land stolen, etc... LOL get the fuck outta here man

What gives Israel the right??? Are you worried more about some terrorist's house than you are worried about the lives of Israeli civilians?Well of course you are, I almost forgot who I'm talking to. And I do not need to justify shit man, these terrorists are the ones doing it for me.What gives them a right to send brainwashed fucktards to blow themselves up on Israeli civilians?
Man you're lost in your own bullshit, you keep contradicting yourself time after time, one moment you're against suicide bombing next moment you're worried more about terrorists homes than you are about human lives, the normal humans, not the ones that decide to die and to take along with them more people. Did you know that thanks to this policy there were cases when Palestinian families that knew their sons were about to blow themselves up submited them to the IDF preventing many losses of human lives? I know of at least 20 cases....tell me it wasn't worth it you hypocrite.

1. Israel has no right to demolish the homes of Palestinian homes... and you haven't been able to show that it has the RIGHT... your reasoning for why you feel it's a good thing doesn't mean it's justified...

2. You're assuming that ONLY the homes of terrorists are being demolished, which is not the case. Even if it were... a terrorist has a family, and you can't punish an entire family for the action of one member.

3. Obviously they don't have the RIGHT to go and blow up shit. That's what makes them "terrorists"... do you see the difference between the terrorists and the Israeli government? If you say there's a difference, then I agree because a government is supposed to adhere to laws... if you say there's no difference, I'd still agree.

4. According to your logic... or lack of one... it's okay to kill someone because you believe there's a chance that in the future that person might kill you... try that in court (you know the place where they look at and observe laws... I hope you know what laws are)



1. What I feel??? man I haven't even started talking about my feelings on the issue. As for rights- Israel has the right to defend its civilians from terrorist atacks and Israel has the right to prevent such atacks. Being that the Palestinian authority proves itself to be impotent or non-willing to prevent such assaults, Israel has even more than a right IT HAS A MORAL OBLIGATION TO DO WHATEVER IS IN ITS POWER TO DEFUSE SUCH ENDEAVORS.

2.Since you are not sure whether only the homes of terrorists are being demolished, why are you even commenting on this? for the sake of speculation?...-Well of course.
How else would you punish a person that decided to commit mass murder along with a suicide? Would you kill him again? Israel supplies observed negative reinforcement for likely to emerge future bombers and for their families, there's no other treatment except for from within the Palestinian authority which they are not willing to inflict.

3.You're damn right they don't have the right to blow up Israeli civilians although I know that you are saying it only for the sake of political correctness. And there IS a huge difference between terrorists and governments in most of the world but in the Palestinian Autonomy these structures seem to be accomplices.

4. How in hell did you conclude that according to my logic it is OK to kill people in advance to their crime? STOP PUTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH, go argue with yourself man you seem to be in disagreement with your own bullshit.

1. Moral obligation doesn't equal adhering to law. When I'm talking about RIGHT.. I'm talking about the lawful right. You're not able to justify it, so you give me reasons why you think it's okay for them to do it... AKA your feelings, Mr. We Todd It

2. It goes against international law... so now you can understand why the UN resolutions are in place. As long as you know... I'm not asking you to agree or disagree... just as long you realize what's going on.

3. So Palestinians don't have the right to harm innocent Israelis... because that would make them terrorists... but the Israeli government harming Palestinians is okay... if Palestinians blow shit up, they're terrorists... if Israel blows shit up, it's defense...
And once again, after I fuck your argument up, you decide to assume that you know what my thoughts or views are... when the fuck did you become psychic? Just because I'm fucking up your argument, doesn't mean you should wrongfully assume what my views are. You lost the argument a long time ago, yet you're acting like this is the first time you've been proven wrong. Keep your assumptions to yourself.

4. Ok.. you really must be retarded....
"Did you know that thanks to this policy (REFERRING TO THE DEMOLISHING OF HOMES) there were cases when Palestinian families that knew their sons were about to blow themselves up submited them to the IDF preventing many losses of human lives? I know of at least 20 cases....tell me it wasn't worth it you hypocrite"
This is the Israeli government bulldozing homes because they believe that someone in the family might commit an act in the future... you justify this... so I made the analogy, hence the words "according to your logic" which we all now know you lack.... do you know what an analogy is?

Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on October 27, 2005, 04:43:13 PM
What do you mean "regardless"? LOL after you're proven wrong... then you try to pull something else up...

What am I arguing that I can't prove? My whole argument is that Palestinians have been victims of Zionism.

Have innocent Palestinians been killed? Yes.
Has Israel demolished homes of innocent people? Yes.
Does every Palestinian refugee have the right to return to his home? No.

Those are all facts. That's all I'm arguing. You're the one that claims that the Israeli government has nothing to do with the demolishing of homes and that it's all in the hands of the soldiers... which is the dumbest thing I've read in this thread... and that's saying a lot considering that I Geezy has been making quite a few posts.


Again, missing the whole point. I never said Palestinians haven't been killed. I never said Israel hasn't demolished the homes of innocent people. The point is, you're arguing that the Israeli government is an evil power, while I've BEEN saying that you have no proof that the Israeli government has any evil intentions...You just keep completely disregarding that and repeating "Israeli's kill innocent people!" when I never denied that...The Israeli government does demolish homes, but do you have any proof that they KNOW it's the house of an innocent civilian when they demolish it? Again, I didn't think so...So why argue something you CAN'T prove?
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 27, 2005, 04:48:31 PM
BTW, I know that the Israeli supreme court ruled that the fence should be built closer to the green line to prevent impact on the Palestinian population near by to such an extent Jewish settlers from near by are even threatening to protest. Not something that makes me anymore fond of this plan but this is something that may answer your question.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 27, 2005, 04:50:56 PM
What do you mean "regardless"? LOL after you're proven wrong... then you try to pull something else up...

What am I arguing that I can't prove? My whole argument is that Palestinians have been victims of Zionism.

Have innocent Palestinians been killed? Yes.
Has Israel demolished homes of innocent people? Yes.
Does every Palestinian refugee have the right to return to his home? No.

Those are all facts. That's all I'm arguing. You're the one that claims that the Israeli government has nothing to do with the demolishing of homes and that it's all in the hands of the soldiers... which is the dumbest thing I've read in this thread... and that's saying a lot considering that I Geezy has been making quite a few posts.


Again, missing the whole point. I never said Palestinians haven't been killed. I never said Israel hasn't demolished the homes of innocent people. The point is, you're arguing that the Israeli government is an evil power, while I've BEEN saying that you have no proof that the Israeli government has any evil intentions...You just keep completely disregarding that and repeating "Israeli's kill innocent people!" when I never denied that...The Israeli government does demolish homes, but do you have any proof that they KNOW it's the house of an innocent civilian when they demolish it? Again, I didn't think so...So why argue something you CAN'T prove?

You're missing the whole point. How can you prove intentions? I'm just telling you what they're doing, not what's going through their heads.

Yes the Israeli government does demolish homes, but previously you stated that it's not the government's choice to do that, and that it's the soldiers doing it... LMAO... so now you realize how retarded that was...

The Israeli government demolished homes when they were building the wall because the homes were in the way of the planned position of the wall... and EVEN if it was the home of a terrorist... what gives the Israeli government the right to demolish the home of his family?  LOL I think you need to realize what's being argued before you say "you can't prove that"... all I'm saying is that Israel has no right to do that, just like a Palestinian suicide bomber doesn't have the right to blow up a falafel stand and kill innocent people... I guess I'm taking an objective approach by looking at laws and rights... and you guys are throwing in assumptions, feelings,etc

"He killed someone, but you have no proof that he has bad intentions" ... yeah, like anyone really gives a fuck...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 27, 2005, 04:55:40 PM
BTW, I know that the Israeli supreme court ruled that the fence should be built closer to the green line to prevent impact on the Palestinian population near by to such an extent Jewish settlers from near by are even threatening to protest. Not something that makes me anymore fond of this plan but this is something that may answer your question.

Good job, son.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 27, 2005, 05:05:17 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?

What the hell are you talking about? Have they approved it? LOL they're the ones doing it... the government bulldozes homes, not the military. That's like saying construction workers make the decision to build freeways.. and then asking "has the government approved that action by the construction workers?" LOL


You ignored my question. Is that your signature method of debating? Like I asked, has the government openly admitted to intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians or not? If they haven't, there is no possible way you can prove it, everything else is just speculation...That's what I'm talkin' about.

No the government hasn't openly admitted to it... but what government would? If the government tries to hide the shit it does... then why would it just openly admit something? There is no possible way I can prove it for the present. However, you made 2 points in your original statement, the other being that about the bulldozing of homes. That's what I addressed... that's what I argued... I didn't argue the part about killing civilians...  you're ignoring your own comments... I didn't ignore anything...

Let's clear something out, Israel does not bulldoze homes cause the IDF or the Israeli government feel like it, if this was the case I don't believe there would be a single building left standing on Palestinian territory. However Israel does uphold a penal policy in the address of those who choose to comply with terrorist power structures. How would you choose to supply observed negative reinforcement to up and coming suicide bombers(that high percentage among Palestinian youth that dreams about becoming Shahids)?? Israel does not demolish homes just for the heck of it.


LOL the way you try to justify these things is hilarious.... what gives Israel the right to go into Palestinian territory, and demolish the homes of Palestinians? Actually.... homes were demolished because they were "in the way" of the wall built.... in addition to the land stolen, etc... LOL get the fuck outta here man

What gives Israel the right??? Are you worried more about some terrorist's house than you are worried about the lives of Israeli civilians?Well of course you are, I almost forgot who I'm talking to. And I do not need to justify shit man, these terrorists are the ones doing it for me.What gives them a right to send brainwashed fucktards to blow themselves up on Israeli civilians?
Man you're lost in your own bullshit, you keep contradicting yourself time after time, one moment you're against suicide bombing next moment you're worried more about terrorists homes than you are about human lives, the normal humans, not the ones that decide to die and to take along with them more people. Did you know that thanks to this policy there were cases when Palestinian families that knew their sons were about to blow themselves up submited them to the IDF preventing many losses of human lives? I know of at least 20 cases....tell me it wasn't worth it you hypocrite.

1. Israel has no right to demolish the homes of Palestinian homes... and you haven't been able to show that it has the RIGHT... your reasoning for why you feel it's a good thing doesn't mean it's justified...

2. You're assuming that ONLY the homes of terrorists are being demolished, which is not the case. Even if it were... a terrorist has a family, and you can't punish an entire family for the action of one member.

3. Obviously they don't have the RIGHT to go and blow up shit. That's what makes them "terrorists"... do you see the difference between the terrorists and the Israeli government? If you say there's a difference, then I agree because a government is supposed to adhere to laws... if you say there's no difference, I'd still agree.

4. According to your logic... or lack of one... it's okay to kill someone because you believe there's a chance that in the future that person might kill you... try that in court (you know the place where they look at and observe laws... I hope you know what laws are)



1. What I feel??? man I haven't even started talking about my feelings on the issue. As for rights- Israel has the right to defend its civilians from terrorist atacks and Israel has the right to prevent such atacks. Being that the Palestinian authority proves itself to be impotent or non-willing to prevent such assaults, Israel has even more than a right IT HAS A MORAL OBLIGATION TO DO WHATEVER IS IN ITS POWER TO DEFUSE SUCH ENDEAVORS.

2.Since you are not sure whether only the homes of terrorists are being demolished, why are you even commenting on this? for the sake of speculation?...-Well of course.
How else would you punish a person that decided to commit mass murder along with a suicide? Would you kill him again? Israel supplies observed negative reinforcement for likely to emerge future bombers and for their families, there's no other treatment except for from within the Palestinian authority which they are not willing to inflict.

3.You're damn right they don't have the right to blow up Israeli civilians although I know that you are saying it only for the sake of political correctness. And there IS a huge difference between terrorists and governments in most of the world but in the Palestinian Autonomy these structures seem to be accomplices.

4. How in hell did you conclude that according to my logic it is OK to kill people in advance to their crime? STOP PUTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH, go argue with yourself man you seem to be in disagreement with your own bullshit.

1. Moral obligation doesn't equal adhering to law. When I'm talking about RIGHT.. I'm talking about the lawful right. You're not able to justify it, so you give me reasons why you think it's okay for them to do it... AKA your feelings, Mr. We Todd It

2. It goes against international law... so now you can understand why the UN resolutions are in place. As long as you know... I'm not asking you to agree or disagree... just as long you realize what's going on.

3. So Palestinians don't have the right to harm innocent Israelis... because that would make them terrorists... but the Israeli government harming Palestinians is okay... if Palestinians blow shit up, they're terrorists... if Israel blows shit up, it's defense...
And once again, after I fuck your argument up, you decide to assume that you know what my thoughts or views are... when the fuck did you become psychic? Just because I'm fucking up your argument, doesn't mean you should wrongfully assume what my views are. You lost the argument a long time ago, yet you're acting like this is the first time you've been proven wrong. Keep your assumptions to yourself.

4. Ok.. you really must be retarded....
"Did you know that thanks to this policy (REFERRING TO THE DEMOLISHING OF HOMES) there were cases when Palestinian families that knew their sons were about to blow themselves up submited them to the IDF preventing many losses of human lives? I know of at least 20 cases....tell me it wasn't worth it you hypocrite"
This is the Israeli government bulldozing homes because they believe that someone in the family might commit an act in the future... you justify this... so I made the analogy, hence the words "according to your logic" which we all now know you lack.... do you know what an analogy is?

 MAYBE these are just us sentimental Israelis who don't view LAWS and MORAL OBLIGATIONS as different aspects. That is unlike The UN you so very much like to mention without willing to admit whether you view it as a moral compass or as a reflection of international consensus cause that would get you in trouble but still you do not see the contradiction in bringing up its resolutions concerning Israel. And you're acting as if you haven't fucked your own arguments up with the previous page of this thread when you admited that you simply do not see the connection between spending billions of dollars of support money on terrorism instead of investing it in bettering the life of the Palestinian population and the way things work out for the Palestinians, whose interests you're trying to defend with your nonsensical bullshit approach.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 27, 2005, 05:10:39 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?

What the hell are you talking about? Have they approved it? LOL they're the ones doing it... the government bulldozes homes, not the military. That's like saying construction workers make the decision to build freeways.. and then asking "has the government approved that action by the construction workers?" LOL


You ignored my question. Is that your signature method of debating? Like I asked, has the government openly admitted to intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians or not? If they haven't, there is no possible way you can prove it, everything else is just speculation...That's what I'm talkin' about.

No the government hasn't openly admitted to it... but what government would? If the government tries to hide the shit it does... then why would it just openly admit something? There is no possible way I can prove it for the present. However, you made 2 points in your original statement, the other being that about the bulldozing of homes. That's what I addressed... that's what I argued... I didn't argue the part about killing civilians...  you're ignoring your own comments... I didn't ignore anything...

Let's clear something out, Israel does not bulldoze homes cause the IDF or the Israeli government feel like it, if this was the case I don't believe there would be a single building left standing on Palestinian territory. However Israel does uphold a penal policy in the address of those who choose to comply with terrorist power structures. How would you choose to supply observed negative reinforcement to up and coming suicide bombers(that high percentage among Palestinian youth that dreams about becoming Shahids)?? Israel does not demolish homes just for the heck of it.


LOL the way you try to justify these things is hilarious.... what gives Israel the right to go into Palestinian territory, and demolish the homes of Palestinians? Actually.... homes were demolished because they were "in the way" of the wall built.... in addition to the land stolen, etc... LOL get the fuck outta here man

What gives Israel the right??? Are you worried more about some terrorist's house than you are worried about the lives of Israeli civilians?Well of course you are, I almost forgot who I'm talking to. And I do not need to justify shit man, these terrorists are the ones doing it for me.What gives them a right to send brainwashed fucktards to blow themselves up on Israeli civilians?
Man you're lost in your own bullshit, you keep contradicting yourself time after time, one moment you're against suicide bombing next moment you're worried more about terrorists homes than you are about human lives, the normal humans, not the ones that decide to die and to take along with them more people. Did you know that thanks to this policy there were cases when Palestinian families that knew their sons were about to blow themselves up submited them to the IDF preventing many losses of human lives? I know of at least 20 cases....tell me it wasn't worth it you hypocrite.

1. Israel has no right to demolish the homes of Palestinian homes... and you haven't been able to show that it has the RIGHT... your reasoning for why you feel it's a good thing doesn't mean it's justified...

2. You're assuming that ONLY the homes of terrorists are being demolished, which is not the case. Even if it were... a terrorist has a family, and you can't punish an entire family for the action of one member.

3. Obviously they don't have the RIGHT to go and blow up shit. That's what makes them "terrorists"... do you see the difference between the terrorists and the Israeli government? If you say there's a difference, then I agree because a government is supposed to adhere to laws... if you say there's no difference, I'd still agree.

4. According to your logic... or lack of one... it's okay to kill someone because you believe there's a chance that in the future that person might kill you... try that in court (you know the place where they look at and observe laws... I hope you know what laws are)



1. What I feel??? man I haven't even started talking about my feelings on the issue. As for rights- Israel has the right to defend its civilians from terrorist atacks and Israel has the right to prevent such atacks. Being that the Palestinian authority proves itself to be impotent or non-willing to prevent such assaults, Israel has even more than a right IT HAS A MORAL OBLIGATION TO DO WHATEVER IS IN ITS POWER TO DEFUSE SUCH ENDEAVORS.

2.Since you are not sure whether only the homes of terrorists are being demolished, why are you even commenting on this? for the sake of speculation?...-Well of course.
How else would you punish a person that decided to commit mass murder along with a suicide? Would you kill him again? Israel supplies observed negative reinforcement for likely to emerge future bombers and for their families, there's no other treatment except for from within the Palestinian authority which they are not willing to inflict.

3.You're damn right they don't have the right to blow up Israeli civilians although I know that you are saying it only for the sake of political correctness. And there IS a huge difference between terrorists and governments in most of the world but in the Palestinian Autonomy these structures seem to be accomplices.

4. How in hell did you conclude that according to my logic it is OK to kill people in advance to their crime? STOP PUTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH, go argue with yourself man you seem to be in disagreement with your own bullshit.

1. Moral obligation doesn't equal adhering to law. When I'm talking about RIGHT.. I'm talking about the lawful right. You're not able to justify it, so you give me reasons why you think it's okay for them to do it... AKA your feelings, Mr. We Todd It

2. It goes against international law... so now you can understand why the UN resolutions are in place. As long as you know... I'm not asking you to agree or disagree... just as long you realize what's going on.

3. So Palestinians don't have the right to harm innocent Israelis... because that would make them terrorists... but the Israeli government harming Palestinians is okay... if Palestinians blow shit up, they're terrorists... if Israel blows shit up, it's defense...
And once again, after I fuck your argument up, you decide to assume that you know what my thoughts or views are... when the fuck did you become psychic? Just because I'm fucking up your argument, doesn't mean you should wrongfully assume what my views are. You lost the argument a long time ago, yet you're acting like this is the first time you've been proven wrong. Keep your assumptions to yourself.

4. Ok.. you really must be retarded....
"Did you know that thanks to this policy (REFERRING TO THE DEMOLISHING OF HOMES) there were cases when Palestinian families that knew their sons were about to blow themselves up submited them to the IDF preventing many losses of human lives? I know of at least 20 cases....tell me it wasn't worth it you hypocrite"
This is the Israeli government bulldozing homes because they believe that someone in the family might commit an act in the future... you justify this... so I made the analogy, hence the words "according to your logic" which we all now know you lack.... do you know what an analogy is?

 MAYBE these are just us sentimental Israelis who don't view LAWS and MORAL OBLIGATIONS as different aspects. That is unlike The UN you so very much like to mention without willing to admit whether you view it as a moral compass or as a reflection of international consensus cause that would get you in trouble but still you do not see the contradiction in bringing up its resolutions concerning Israel. And you're acting as if you haven't fucked your own arguments up with the previous page of this thread when you admited that you simply do not see the connection between spending billions of dollars of support money on terrorism instead of investing it in bettering the life of the Palestinian population and the way things work out for the Palestinians, whose interests you're trying to defend with your nonsensical bullshit approach, for all these years.

LOL. You lost. I don't know which played a larger role... me fucking your arguments up, or you just making retarded comments... either way, now you can save yourself the embarassment.

By the way, where did I admit that I "do not see the connection between spending billions of dollars of support money on terrorism instead of investing it in bettering the life of the Palestinian population and the way things work out for the Palestinians". The Palestinian leadership has fucked up...  but that doesn't mean that Palestinians haven't been victims of Zionism. That's all I was arguing, and that's what I have proven. You call the adherence of laws and rights nonsensical... which I can understand  :)

SHALOM.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 27, 2005, 05:30:06 PM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?

What the hell are you talking about? Have they approved it? LOL they're the ones doing it... the government bulldozes homes, not the military. That's like saying construction workers make the decision to build freeways.. and then asking "has the government approved that action by the construction workers?" LOL


You ignored my question. Is that your signature method of debating? Like I asked, has the government openly admitted to intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians or not? If they haven't, there is no possible way you can prove it, everything else is just speculation...That's what I'm talkin' about.

No the government hasn't openly admitted to it... but what government would? If the government tries to hide the shit it does... then why would it just openly admit something? There is no possible way I can prove it for the present. However, you made 2 points in your original statement, the other being that about the bulldozing of homes. That's what I addressed... that's what I argued... I didn't argue the part about killing civilians...  you're ignoring your own comments... I didn't ignore anything...

Let's clear something out, Israel does not bulldoze homes cause the IDF or the Israeli government feel like it, if this was the case I don't believe there would be a single building left standing on Palestinian territory. However Israel does uphold a penal policy in the address of those who choose to comply with terrorist power structures. How would you choose to supply observed negative reinforcement to up and coming suicide bombers(that high percentage among Palestinian youth that dreams about becoming Shahids)?? Israel does not demolish homes just for the heck of it.


LOL the way you try to justify these things is hilarious.... what gives Israel the right to go into Palestinian territory, and demolish the homes of Palestinians? Actually.... homes were demolished because they were "in the way" of the wall built.... in addition to the land stolen, etc... LOL get the fuck outta here man

What gives Israel the right??? Are you worried more about some terrorist's house than you are worried about the lives of Israeli civilians?Well of course you are, I almost forgot who I'm talking to. And I do not need to justify shit man, these terrorists are the ones doing it for me.What gives them a right to send brainwashed fucktards to blow themselves up on Israeli civilians?
Man you're lost in your own bullshit, you keep contradicting yourself time after time, one moment you're against suicide bombing next moment you're worried more about terrorists homes than you are about human lives, the normal humans, not the ones that decide to die and to take along with them more people. Did you know that thanks to this policy there were cases when Palestinian families that knew their sons were about to blow themselves up submited them to the IDF preventing many losses of human lives? I know of at least 20 cases....tell me it wasn't worth it you hypocrite.

1. Israel has no right to demolish the homes of Palestinian homes... and you haven't been able to show that it has the RIGHT... your reasoning for why you feel it's a good thing doesn't mean it's justified...

2. You're assuming that ONLY the homes of terrorists are being demolished, which is not the case. Even if it were... a terrorist has a family, and you can't punish an entire family for the action of one member.

3. Obviously they don't have the RIGHT to go and blow up shit. That's what makes them "terrorists"... do you see the difference between the terrorists and the Israeli government? If you say there's a difference, then I agree because a government is supposed to adhere to laws... if you say there's no difference, I'd still agree.

4. According to your logic... or lack of one... it's okay to kill someone because you believe there's a chance that in the future that person might kill you... try that in court (you know the place where they look at and observe laws... I hope you know what laws are)



1. What I feel??? man I haven't even started talking about my feelings on the issue. As for rights- Israel has the right to defend its civilians from terrorist atacks and Israel has the right to prevent such atacks. Being that the Palestinian authority proves itself to be impotent or non-willing to prevent such assaults, Israel has even more than a right IT HAS A MORAL OBLIGATION TO DO WHATEVER IS IN ITS POWER TO DEFUSE SUCH ENDEAVORS.

2.Since you are not sure whether only the homes of terrorists are being demolished, why are you even commenting on this? for the sake of speculation?...-Well of course.
How else would you punish a person that decided to commit mass murder along with a suicide? Would you kill him again? Israel supplies observed negative reinforcement for likely to emerge future bombers and for their families, there's no other treatment except for from within the Palestinian authority which they are not willing to inflict.

3.You're damn right they don't have the right to blow up Israeli civilians although I know that you are saying it only for the sake of political correctness. And there IS a huge difference between terrorists and governments in most of the world but in the Palestinian Autonomy these structures seem to be accomplices.

4. How in hell did you conclude that according to my logic it is OK to kill people in advance to their crime? STOP PUTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH, go argue with yourself man you seem to be in disagreement with your own bullshit.

1. Moral obligation doesn't equal adhering to law. When I'm talking about RIGHT.. I'm talking about the lawful right. You're not able to justify it, so you give me reasons why you think it's okay for them to do it... AKA your feelings, Mr. We Todd It

2. It goes against international law... so now you can understand why the UN resolutions are in place. As long as you know... I'm not asking you to agree or disagree... just as long you realize what's going on.

3. So Palestinians don't have the right to harm innocent Israelis... because that would make them terrorists... but the Israeli government harming Palestinians is okay... if Palestinians blow shit up, they're terrorists... if Israel blows shit up, it's defense...
And once again, after I fuck your argument up, you decide to assume that you know what my thoughts or views are... when the fuck did you become psychic? Just because I'm fucking up your argument, doesn't mean you should wrongfully assume what my views are. You lost the argument a long time ago, yet you're acting like this is the first time you've been proven wrong. Keep your assumptions to yourself.

4. Ok.. you really must be retarded....
"Did you know that thanks to this policy (REFERRING TO THE DEMOLISHING OF HOMES) there were cases when Palestinian families that knew their sons were about to blow themselves up submited them to the IDF preventing many losses of human lives? I know of at least 20 cases....tell me it wasn't worth it you hypocrite"
This is the Israeli government bulldozing homes because they believe that someone in the family might commit an act in the future... you justify this... so I made the analogy, hence the words "according to your logic" which we all now know you lack.... do you know what an analogy is?

 MAYBE these are just us sentimental Israelis who don't view LAWS and MORAL OBLIGATIONS as different aspects. That is unlike The UN you so very much like to mention without willing to admit whether you view it as a moral compass or as a reflection of international consensus cause that would get you in trouble but still you do not see the contradiction in bringing up its resolutions concerning Israel. And you're acting as if you haven't fucked your own arguments up with the previous page of this thread when you admited that you simply do not see the connection between spending billions of dollars of support money on terrorism instead of investing it in bettering the life of the Palestinian population and the way things work out for the Palestinians, whose interests you're trying to defend with your nonsensical bullshit approach, for all these years.

LOL. You lost. I don't know which played a larger role... me fucking your arguments up, or you just making retarded comments... either way, now you can save yourself the embarassment.

By the way, where did I admit that I "do not see the connection between spending billions of dollars of support money on terrorism instead of investing it in bettering the life of the Palestinian population and the way things work out for the Palestinians". The Palestinian leadership has fucked up...  but that doesn't mean that Palestinians haven't been victims of Zionism. That's all I was arguing, and that's what I have proven. You call the adherence of laws and rights nonsensical... which I can understand  :)

SHALOM.

LMAO Weren't you taught to loose with respect?....This is like the 100th time you're trying to bail out of this debate proclaiming yourself the winner only to return again and to embarrass yourself even more with bullshit arguments and topic dodging. If you do not recall yourself admitting your ignorance just go back to the previous page man, I hope you can at least fathom your own bullshit. The fact Palestinian governments and Palestinian so called freedom fighters had been fuckin up for all these years didn't disappear into oblivion only because you chose to admit it, this fact casts on the frustration within the Palestinian people, the large predisposition to terrorism due to the frustration, the docility for manipulation by terroristic power structures. With the amounts of money they received they could've already lived like a decent developing state just like Israel had been at the dawn of its existence but these so called leaders chose FOR THEM a way of terrorism and you my friend are in the deepest of denials if you do not see this.
So yea, GOOD LUCK ON YOUR MIDTERMS, MAN.... Too bad my college year is gonna be accompanied by Kassams flying over my head while studying. Salam...!
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on October 27, 2005, 06:16:39 PM
What do you mean "regardless"? LOL after you're proven wrong... then you try to pull something else up...

What am I arguing that I can't prove? My whole argument is that Palestinians have been victims of Zionism.

Have innocent Palestinians been killed? Yes.
Has Israel demolished homes of innocent people? Yes.
Does every Palestinian refugee have the right to return to his home? No.

Those are all facts. That's all I'm arguing. You're the one that claims that the Israeli government has nothing to do with the demolishing of homes and that it's all in the hands of the soldiers... which is the dumbest thing I've read in this thread... and that's saying a lot considering that I Geezy has been making quite a few posts.


Again, missing the whole point. I never said Palestinians haven't been killed. I never said Israel hasn't demolished the homes of innocent people. The point is, you're arguing that the Israeli government is an evil power, while I've BEEN saying that you have no proof that the Israeli government has any evil intentions...You just keep completely disregarding that and repeating "Israeli's kill innocent people!" when I never denied that...The Israeli government does demolish homes, but do you have any proof that they KNOW it's the house of an innocent civilian when they demolish it? Again, I didn't think so...So why argue something you CAN'T prove?

You're missing the whole point. How can you prove intentions? I'm just telling you what they're doing, not what's going through their heads.

Yes the Israeli government does demolish homes, but previously you stated that it's not the government's choice to do that, and that it's the soldiers doing it... LMAO... so now you realize how retarded that was...

The Israeli government demolished homes when they were building the wall because the homes were in the way of the planned position of the wall... and EVEN if it was the home of a terrorist... what gives the Israeli government the right to demolish the home of his family?  LOL I think you need to realize what's being argued before you say "you can't prove that"... all I'm saying is that Israel has no right to do that, just like a Palestinian suicide bomber doesn't have the right to blow up a falafel stand and kill innocent people... I guess I'm taking an objective approach by looking at laws and rights... and you guys are throwing in assumptions, feelings,etc

"He killed someone, but you have no proof that he has bad intentions" ... yeah, like anyone really gives a fuck...

It's the government's choice to demolish homes of TERRORISTS, that is the intention. The Israeli government does not CHOOSE to kill innocent people, but innocent people get killed. It's amazing how many times I have to say the same thing for you to just completely disregard it in your next post. The Israeli's have no right to kill innocent Palestinians, correct. But the innocent people dying are not intended to be killed...A Palestinian suicide bomber is completely different, as his main intention IS to harm innocent people...Get the dreezy?
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 28, 2005, 12:52:01 AM
Yes, but I wasn't arguing that... you're making a statement that I didn't even argue...

In regards to what the government does on purpose, I mentioned the demolishing of homes.... not just "terrorist homes"... the government demolished homes that were in the way of the wall being built on Palestinian land. Comprende?
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 28, 2005, 12:54:11 AM
Nice job ignoring your contradictions, keep it up. And thank you Tech, maybe the moment Propaganda victims get reinforced by their likes they calm down.

LOL... nice job ignoring the entire argument and your flip-flopping... LOL @ propaganda victims coming from the guy who blindly supports the regime that calls a wall 30 times larger than the Berlin Wall a fence.... we won't even talk about actions it has taken (Lavon Affair  ;))

Now go read your history books written by Zionists.


lol And you've called me brainwashed even though I've told you that I'm against this fence. Damn, so thick headed and blind to the facts, you really frustrate me homie.

I can understand you being frustrated... I would be too if I didn't know what the fuck was going on and I got involved in some argument with someone I can't bullshit.  :)

Anyways, this and you are over. Peace.

I could go on for days pointing out facts and refuting your ungrounded statements but what good does talking to a wall?
Good luck, hope your self-persuasion works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding reality.

Says the guy who supports the government with over 60 UN resolutions against it... the government that kills off innocent people... the government that bulldozes the homes of innocent people... the government that illegally occupies the land of others... the government that attacks U.S. navy vessels hoping that the blame will be put on someone else.... LOL.. yeah, I'm not minding reality. Good luck, hope your ignorance works out for you, you're a lucky dude if you can live in peace with yourself without minding the truth.  :)


I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions. Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

LOL@  it's not the government, it's the soldiers.... I seriously can't believe this... that's like saying it's not our government's fault that we went to war... it's the military's fault because they're the ones that went there... LOLLLLL what the fuck.... you think the soldiers just go out there and do whatever the fuck they want? Did our troops decide "damn, let's go to Iraq and take out Saddam"... or was it our government? Come on man, you gotta be smarter than this.


Like I said and you ignored, the government does not approve killings of innocent people. Soldiers are sent out to war, innocent people get harmed, it is not the main intention...Why do you choose to ignore that and bring up Iraq?

I was referring to the line about the bulldozing of homes... where you claimed that it was the soldiers doing that and not the government... I hope you realize and understand that the government makes such decisions and not the military. Why do you choose to ignore that?


Have they ever approved the bulldozing of a civilians home out in the open? No. So how else would you be able to provide proof for that statement unless you knew the Israeli government personally and they admitted this to you?

What the hell are you talking about? Have they approved it? LOL they're the ones doing it... the government bulldozes homes, not the military. That's like saying construction workers make the decision to build freeways.. and then asking "has the government approved that action by the construction workers?" LOL


You ignored my question. Is that your signature method of debating? Like I asked, has the government openly admitted to intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians or not? If they haven't, there is no possible way you can prove it, everything else is just speculation...That's what I'm talkin' about.

No the government hasn't openly admitted to it... but what government would? If the government tries to hide the shit it does... then why would it just openly admit something? There is no possible way I can prove it for the present. However, you made 2 points in your original statement, the other being that about the bulldozing of homes. That's what I addressed... that's what I argued... I didn't argue the part about killing civilians...  you're ignoring your own comments... I didn't ignore anything...

Let's clear something out, Israel does not bulldoze homes cause the IDF or the Israeli government feel like it, if this was the case I don't believe there would be a single building left standing on Palestinian territory. However Israel does uphold a penal policy in the address of those who choose to comply with terrorist power structures. How would you choose to supply observed negative reinforcement to up and coming suicide bombers(that high percentage among Palestinian youth that dreams about becoming Shahids)?? Israel does not demolish homes just for the heck of it.


LOL the way you try to justify these things is hilarious.... what gives Israel the right to go into Palestinian territory, and demolish the homes of Palestinians? Actually.... homes were demolished because they were "in the way" of the wall built.... in addition to the land stolen, etc... LOL get the fuck outta here man

What gives Israel the right??? Are you worried more about some terrorist's house than you are worried about the lives of Israeli civilians?Well of course you are, I almost forgot who I'm talking to. And I do not need to justify shit man, these terrorists are the ones doing it for me.What gives them a right to send brainwashed fucktards to blow themselves up on Israeli civilians?
Man you're lost in your own bullshit, you keep contradicting yourself time after time, one moment you're against suicide bombing next moment you're worried more about terrorists homes than you are about human lives, the normal humans, not the ones that decide to die and to take along with them more people. Did you know that thanks to this policy there were cases when Palestinian families that knew their sons were about to blow themselves up submited them to the IDF preventing many losses of human lives? I know of at least 20 cases....tell me it wasn't worth it you hypocrite.

1. Israel has no right to demolish the homes of Palestinian homes... and you haven't been able to show that it has the RIGHT... your reasoning for why you feel it's a good thing doesn't mean it's justified...

2. You're assuming that ONLY the homes of terrorists are being demolished, which is not the case. Even if it were... a terrorist has a family, and you can't punish an entire family for the action of one member.

3. Obviously they don't have the RIGHT to go and blow up shit. That's what makes them "terrorists"... do you see the difference between the terrorists and the Israeli government? If you say there's a difference, then I agree because a government is supposed to adhere to laws... if you say there's no difference, I'd still agree.

4. According to your logic... or lack of one... it's okay to kill someone because you believe there's a chance that in the future that person might kill you... try that in court (you know the place where they look at and observe laws... I hope you know what laws are)



1. What I feel??? man I haven't even started talking about my feelings on the issue. As for rights- Israel has the right to defend its civilians from terrorist atacks and Israel has the right to prevent such atacks. Being that the Palestinian authority proves itself to be impotent or non-willing to prevent such assaults, Israel has even more than a right IT HAS A MORAL OBLIGATION TO DO WHATEVER IS IN ITS POWER TO DEFUSE SUCH ENDEAVORS.

2.Since you are not sure whether only the homes of terrorists are being demolished, why are you even commenting on this? for the sake of speculation?...-Well of course.
How else would you punish a person that decided to commit mass murder along with a suicide? Would you kill him again? Israel supplies observed negative reinforcement for likely to emerge future bombers and for their families, there's no other treatment except for from within the Palestinian authority which they are not willing to inflict.

3.You're damn right they don't have the right to blow up Israeli civilians although I know that you are saying it only for the sake of political correctness. And there IS a huge difference between terrorists and governments in most of the world but in the Palestinian Autonomy these structures seem to be accomplices.

4. How in hell did you conclude that according to my logic it is OK to kill people in advance to their crime? STOP PUTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH, go argue with yourself man you seem to be in disagreement with your own bullshit.

1. Moral obligation doesn't equal adhering to law. When I'm talking about RIGHT.. I'm talking about the lawful right. You're not able to justify it, so you give me reasons why you think it's okay for them to do it... AKA your feelings, Mr. We Todd It

2. It goes against international law... so now you can understand why the UN resolutions are in place. As long as you know... I'm not asking you to agree or disagree... just as long you realize what's going on.

3. So Palestinians don't have the right to harm innocent Israelis... because that would make them terrorists... but the Israeli government harming Palestinians is okay... if Palestinians blow shit up, they're terrorists... if Israel blows shit up, it's defense...
And once again, after I fuck your argument up, you decide to assume that you know what my thoughts or views are... when the fuck did you become psychic? Just because I'm fucking up your argument, doesn't mean you should wrongfully assume what my views are. You lost the argument a long time ago, yet you're acting like this is the first time you've been proven wrong. Keep your assumptions to yourself.

4. Ok.. you really must be retarded....
"Did you know that thanks to this policy (REFERRING TO THE DEMOLISHING OF HOMES) there were cases when Palestinian families that knew their sons were about to blow themselves up submited them to the IDF preventing many losses of human lives? I know of at least 20 cases....tell me it wasn't worth it you hypocrite"
This is the Israeli government bulldozing homes because they believe that someone in the family might commit an act in the future... you justify this... so I made the analogy, hence the words "according to your logic" which we all now know you lack.... do you know what an analogy is?

 MAYBE these are just us sentimental Israelis who don't view LAWS and MORAL OBLIGATIONS as different aspects. That is unlike The UN you so very much like to mention without willing to admit whether you view it as a moral compass or as a reflection of international consensus cause that would get you in trouble but still you do not see the contradiction in bringing up its resolutions concerning Israel. And you're acting as if you haven't fucked your own arguments up with the previous page of this thread when you admited that you simply do not see the connection between spending billions of dollars of support money on terrorism instead of investing it in bettering the life of the Palestinian population and the way things work out for the Palestinians, whose interests you're trying to defend with your nonsensical bullshit approach, for all these years.

LOL. You lost. I don't know which played a larger role... me fucking your arguments up, or you just making retarded comments... either way, now you can save yourself the embarassment.

By the way, where did I admit that I "do not see the connection between spending billions of dollars of support money on terrorism instead of investing it in bettering the life of the Palestinian population and the way things work out for the Palestinians". The Palestinian leadership has fucked up...  but that doesn't mean that Palestinians haven't been victims of Zionism. That's all I was arguing, and that's what I have proven. You call the adherence of laws and rights nonsensical... which I can understand  :)

SHALOM.

LMAO Weren't you taught to loose with respect?....This is like the 100th time you're trying to bail out of this debate proclaiming yourself the winner only to return again and to embarrass yourself even more with bullshit arguments and topic dodging. If you do not recall yourself admitting your ignorance just go back to the previous page man, I hope you can at least fathom your own bullshit. The fact Palestinian governments and Palestinian so called freedom fighters had been fuckin up for all these years didn't disappear into oblivion only because you chose to admit it, this fact casts on the frustration within the Palestinian people, the large predisposition to terrorism due to the frustration, the docility for manipulation by terroristic power structures. With the amounts of money they received they could've already lived like a decent developing state just like Israel had been at the dawn of its existence but these so called leaders chose FOR THEM a way of terrorism and you my friend are in the deepest of denials if you do not see this.
So yea, GOOD LUCK ON YOUR MIDTERMS, MAN.... Too bad my college year is gonna be accompanied by Kassams flying over my head while studying. Salam...!

So you say that I admitted it... then I ask you to show me where... and you come with this? LOLLL ... don't make statements you can't back.

Did the Palestinian leadership fuck up and let down its own people? Yes.
Is that the ONLY reason for their condition? No.

I wish I could draw diagrams out for you guys...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 28, 2005, 01:09:49 AM
Just to show you how brainwashed you are.... you kept referring to the wall as a fence... The Berlin Wall was about 96 miles long, and on average about 4 meters high. The Israeli FENCE LOOOL is supposed to be over 400 miles long when done, and is about 8 meters high (25 feet).

(http://www.vtjp.org/images/INCwall_718.jpg)

Fence? I think not... but then again, this picture must be propaganda used to brainwash me...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: makaveli11 on October 28, 2005, 01:54:37 AM
 :o 400 miles long and 8 meters when done. Damn!!!
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 28, 2005, 02:34:25 AM


5. Israel receives money from the U.S to maintain it's existence and yes that includes the military budget taken into consideration the risks Israel is facing but look what Israel had done with its funding throughout its short existence. Despite a constant threat to our existence we have here a stable first world state and that's in such a short time period, many nations struggle for centuries before they are stabilized . With the International support money Arafat recieved - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS - He could've created infrastructures and he could've built schools but the money went for terrorism at times when Oslo was supposed to be his main goal and in addition the Fatah received weapons from Israel to maintain order- NICELY DONE!. Oslo was just a tactical step for Arafat.
Israel has done good for itself.. Arafat was an idiot... I agree, but what's your point? You can't stick to the argument.

OH GUESS WHO'S BACK....LOL weren't you leaving this debate??....WELCOME HOME SON!! CLOWN

Obviously YOU CAN'T fathom your own bullshit, I've lost all hope.

Here you go, just read your response, YOU SAID THAT YOU AGREE but that THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ARGUMENT and this is exactly what PROVES Palestinians are VICTIMS OF THEIR OWN LEADERSHIP and that Israel is coerced to overcome Palestinian terrorism since the Palestinian government refuses to handle\eradicate Palestinian terrorism despite condemning it in front of the media afterwards!-YOU OPENLY CHOSE TO IGNORE IT which is an unequivocal proof of you being either truly brainwashed or (since you claim you are not brainwashed) ignorant. When Abu Mazen reacted to this last bombing and Israel's response he actualy said something very interesting, you should grab onto his thought "This time we were the aggressors, this happned due to an internal flaw(meaning previous attacks were coordinated with the government??), I DO NOT WANT TO DEFEND ISRAEL BUT THIS IS THE TRUTH and it is important to be said" His advisers tried to correct him while saying this!...and truth is this is how this entire conflict started people just choose not to look back.



p.s What's up with you and this WALL (here u go " WALL"!!) I told you for like a billion times I'm against it.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 28, 2005, 03:09:11 AM
1. The whole point was that Palestinians have been victims to Zionism. That's a fact. Yes there are other factors which add to their condition, including their own leadership... I've always stated that Arafat was a fuck-up... but to deny that Zionism is not a factor, is just retarded.

2. The statement I made about the wall had nothing to do with you being for or against it... I was just pointing out who the brainwashed one is and to what extent... to call that a fence...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 28, 2005, 04:11:48 AM
1. The whole point was that Palestinians have been victims to Zionism. That's a fact. Yes there are other factors which add to their condition, including their own leadership... I've always stated that Arafat was a fuck-up... but to deny that Zionism is not a factor, is just retarded.

2. The statement I made about the wall had nothing to do with you being for or against it... I was just pointing out who the brainwashed one is and to what extent... to call that a fence...

OK buddy read carefully now so you understand everything, I want you to know I mean exactly what I'm saying-

The Palestinian people ARE IN NO WAY VICTIMS OF ZIONISM- Your most notable Zionist right wing precursor wanted to embrace this population and the way things are today for the Israeli Arabs is a PROOF of his vision. LMAO try deporting one of these Israeli Arabs to the Palestinian Autonomy none of them will ever go, Israeli Arabs live tens of times better than the Palestinian population within the Palestinian Autonomy,there are many wealthy families among them, many Palestinians from within the Autonomy seek to marry girls out of Israeli Arabs' families to escape the poverty that had been stimulated within the Autonomy by Arafat and his accomplices through spending billions of dollars of support money on reinforcement of terrorist power structures, that is the same poverty that causes deep frustration within the the Palestinian population increasing its docility to manipulation by terrorist power structures- it's a WIN\WIN situation for terroristic organizations.The lack of cooperation on the part of the Palestinian government in eradication of terrorism is a direct cause to Israel's military coercion. You truly are a phenomenon man, I do not know what goes down inside of your mind, whether you really are in denial due to a nice brainwash or whether you're simply too damn ignorant to see the obvious,this is not clear to me.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 28, 2005, 04:42:46 AM
When money is used for peaceful purposes the public gains however when it is used for militant purposes only certain indeviduals profit from it, both financially and in reinforcement of their position of power.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: 7even on October 28, 2005, 05:01:39 AM
The whole idea of Israel is ridiculous.. planting an artificial state right where the "enemies" are and then slowly take their land.. don't tell me that wasn't the plan. About anyone who argues "it's our holy land, the bible says!!!11" I can only laugh, really. Im going to write a book in which it's stated that the whole world belongs to me, then go around from house to house, showing everybody my book and bulldoze their house. Everybody who fights back is a terrorist.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 28, 2005, 06:48:06 AM
The whole idea of Israel is ridiculous.. planting an artificial state right where the "enemies" are and then slowly take their land.. don't tell me that wasn't the plan. About anyone who argues "it's our holy land, the bible says!!!11" I can only laugh, really. Im going to write a book in which it's stated that the whole world belongs to me, then go around from house to house, showing everybody my book and bulldoze their house. Everybody who fights back is a terrorist.

First of all, these enemies you're refering to are our enemies by their own choice, this is history man.Up untill the Jews came here to gradually found their state these people were never our enemies, do I have to start over this debate?- we've covered this, ignoring facts is pointless however most of the world at those times was drenched with anti-semitism so there weren't many choices as for the geographical location of the upcoming Jewish national home.What was a not so great idea was proclaiming an arbitrary group of people as a NATION seeking for SELF-DETERMINATION only for the sake of removing an already established nation from land it was trying to regain after centuries without a national home espcially when this nation expressed its peaceful intentions and especially when this nation had been persecuted everywhere else . Second of all, according to what you're saying you must also be opposing to the existence of the US since the people who founded it despite its native population already had land, unlike Jews. This has little to do with religion but you're the one mentioning the bible, tell me, are you religious? - I believe you're not since you made the statement about writing a book about the whole world belonging to you, I mean that I hope you aren't religious otherwise this would be an empty statement.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: 7even on October 28, 2005, 07:14:49 AM
The whole idea of Israel is ridiculous.. planting an artificial state right where the "enemies" are and then slowly take their land.. don't tell me that wasn't the plan. About anyone who argues "it's our holy land, the bible says!!!11" I can only laugh, really. Im going to write a book in which it's stated that the whole world belongs to me, then go around from house to house, showing everybody my book and bulldoze their house. Everybody who fights back is a terrorist.

First of all, these enemies you're refering to are our enemies by their own choice, this is history man.Up untill the Jews came here to gradually found their state these people were never our enemies, do I have to start over this debate?- we've covered this, ignoring facts is pointless however most of the world at those times was drenched with anti-semitism so there weren't many choices as for the geographical location of the upcoming Jewish national home.What was a not so great idea was proclaiming an arbitrary group of people as a NATION seeking for SELF-DETERMINATION only for the sake of removing an already established nation from land it was trying to regain after centuries without a national home espcially when this nation expressed its peaceful intentions and especially when this nation had been persecuted everywhere else . Second of all, according to what you're saying you must also be opposing to the existence of the US since the people who founded it despite its native population already had land, unlike Jews. This has little to do with religion but you're the one mentioning the bible, tell me, are you religious? - I believe you're not since you made the statement about writing a book about the whole world belonging to you, I mean that I hope you aren't religious otherwise this would be an empty statement.

1. Im not religious and no matter how religious some people might be, there is no way a state should be created upon a quote from an ancient book. No matter if it's the bible, the qu'ran or detective story.

2. What the pilgrims did to the Indians was of course wrong, Im not here to argue that. How does that change anything?

3. What exactly are you now? A religion, a race or a nation? Seriously, I'm lost on that one. I heard it all now. "I'm not white, I'm Jewish." "We're a nation." I suppose Jews weren't hated in America, why didnt you make a state in Oregon, USA, or so? Canada is pretty huge with few people, why not creating a Jewish state in Canada? Why the fuck creating a state right there, when it's OBVIOUS there gon be trouble? Argueing that you claimed to have peaceful intentions is ridiculous, it's like a little child claiming it didnt mean to piss anyone off when it sits on the toy someone else wants to play with.. "Im just sitting there, hey, I ain't doing nothing, man".. that doesn't really work.
Why the hell you need a Jewish state anyway for that matter? Do we have a black state? Or a catholic state?


Anyways, this whole land grabbing thing is ridiculous from its very start, I'm sure everybody sees that, but has to stand up for his people, which I understand. The American government sure as hell sees this as well, but we all know how much the US loves to have control there and we all know how much power Jews have in the US. It's not about right or wrong, it's about power and money.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 28, 2005, 08:51:43 AM
The whole idea of Israel is ridiculous.. planting an artificial state right where the "enemies" are and then slowly take their land.. don't tell me that wasn't the plan. About anyone who argues "it's our holy land, the bible says!!!11" I can only laugh, really. Im going to write a book in which it's stated that the whole world belongs to me, then go around from house to house, showing everybody my book and bulldoze their house. Everybody who fights back is a terrorist.

First of all, these enemies you're refering to are our enemies by their own choice, this is history man.Up untill the Jews came here to gradually found their state these people were never our enemies, do I have to start over this debate?- we've covered this, ignoring facts is pointless however most of the world at those times was drenched with anti-semitism so there weren't many choices as for the geographical location of the upcoming Jewish national home.What was a not so great idea was proclaiming an arbitrary group of people as a NATION seeking for SELF-DETERMINATION only for the sake of removing an already established nation from land it was trying to regain after centuries without a national home espcially when this nation expressed its peaceful intentions and especially when this nation had been persecuted everywhere else . Second of all, according to what you're saying you must also be opposing to the existence of the US since the people who founded it despite its native population already had land, unlike Jews. This has little to do with religion but you're the one mentioning the bible, tell me, are you religious? - I believe you're not since you made the statement about writing a book about the whole world belonging to you, I mean that I hope you aren't religious otherwise this would be an empty statement.

1. Im not religious and no matter how religious some people might be, there is no way a state should be created upon a quote from an ancient book. No matter if it's the bible, the qu'ran or detective story.

2. What the pilgrims did to the Indians was of course wrong, Im not here to argue that. How does that change anything?

3. What exactly are you now? A religion, a race or a nation? Seriously, I'm lost on that one. I heard it all now. "I'm not white, I'm Jewish." "We're a nation." I suppose Jews weren't hated in America, why didnt you make a state in Oregon, USA, or so? Canada is pretty huge with few people, why not creating a Jewish state in Canada? Why the fuck creating a state right there, when it's OBVIOUS there gon be trouble? Argueing that you claimed to have peaceful intentions is ridiculous, it's like a little child claiming it didnt mean to piss anyone off when it sits on the toy someone else wants to play with.. "Im just sitting there, hey, I ain't doing nothing, man".. that doesn't really work.
Why the hell you need a Jewish state anyway for that matter? Do we have a black state? Or a catholic state?


Anyways, this whole land grabbing thing is ridiculous from its very start, I'm sure everybody sees that, but has to stand up for his people, which I understand. The American government sure as hell sees this as well, but we all know how much the US loves to have control there and we all know how much power Jews have in the US. It's not about right or wrong, it's about power and money.

I never said I was religious and the reasons for creating a Jewish state lay within the Jewish history and not within the Jewish religion, I'm very sorry that you haven't been taught Jewish history. Judaism is a religion, Jews are a nation and we are semites racialy. Jews wouldn't need a national home if it wasn't for the anti-semitism they've encountered throughout the centuries and its most prominent outlet- The Holocaust, history showed us Jews would've been extinct without a state.
The US is a country based on occupation of land for imperialistic purposes despite its native population by people who owned land by the time they got there, unlike Israel that was founded for purposes of refuge and survival of the Jewish people by people who didn't have any land before. Coming with peaceful intentions toward the native population unlike the American pilgrims, yet you choose to oppose Israels existence much more, I wonder why?
Zionists did come with peaceful intentions-IT'S A FACT....Hostility was triggered first by Palestinian puppet freedom fighters to prevent the creation of a Jewish state however not so that the Palestinians would have their own state but so that Egypt and Syria  could unite, bridging through Palestine. In 48 the UN didn't only decide on the creation of a Jewish state but of a Palestinian state as well and they had much more land than they have today. Have you ever wondered why it was never created?- Because the Arab nations that controlled the Palestinian freedom fighters weren't interested in granting these so called "Palestinians" with a state, they made up the Palestinian self-determination to claim at least some of the land,most of it as a matter of fact, do you not get this?

LMAO@ YOU SUPPOSING JEWS WEREN'T HATED IN AMERICA....This is ridiculous...OMG MAN! DID YOU JUST RETURN FROM OUTER SPACE??? Have you heared about the Saint Louis ship after Kristalnacht that left Hamburg  on May 13th  1939? It had 936 Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany and your Jewish loving USA REFUSED to let them in despite the fact 734 entrance clearances
among the passengers....How's that for your anti-semitism free USA?-FYI most of these refugees were MURDERED during The Holocaust.  Some of you people really crack me up with your fairy tale solutions.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: 7even on October 28, 2005, 09:06:56 AM
Quite frankly, I don't really care about stuff like you are "semites" racially, or that Jews are a nation. That's on some Star Trek shit to me. I don't like when people refrain from what really goes on and decide to hold on to some theoretical stuff, like "good intentions" or that  "the govt of Israel never ordered the murder of civil palestians". I see what I see. Now, my knowledge on this topic is indeed limited, I don't know much about your history and I also don't really bother to. And I don't need to. ALL that is relevent is this: You can't just take one's land and act like it's normal, LOL. It's really not much more complex than that. The issue is shockingly simple, really.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 28, 2005, 09:21:36 AM
I see what I see. Now, my knowledge on this topic is indeed limited, I don't know much about your history and I also don't really bother to. And I don't need to. ALL that is relevent is this: You can't just take one's land and act like it's normal, LOL. It's really not much more complex than that. The issue is shockingly simple, really.

This conflict is anything but simple, arguing on this issue with insufficient knowledge is straight up GIBBERISH!!!

Simple huh?? If I remember correctly you're an American? Pack your stuff homeboy you're moving since you're occupying the land of Native Americans, BECAUSE I KNOW USA'S HISTORY AND YOU'RE LIVING ON THAT LAND IN CONTRADICTION OF YOUR OWN VIEWS,you're right, when it's simple, IT'S SIMPLE!!!
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: King Tech Quadafi on October 28, 2005, 10:03:12 AM

The Palestinian people ARE IN NO WAY VICTIMS OF ZIONISM-

AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH....Damn, i needed that on a friday afternoon
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: King Tech Quadafi on October 28, 2005, 10:06:31 AM
7even the littledinger pretty much summed it up

The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is remarkeably simple. So simple that Israelis and their sympathesizers have to ADD initiall factors to the debate to cloud the discussion and blur the lines between fact and fiction.

Hence, "what are the Israelis doin on Arab land?" becomes "why isnt the palestinian authority reigning in military groups?"
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 28, 2005, 12:03:31 PM
7even the littledinger pretty much summed it up

The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is remarkeably simple. So simple that Israelis and their sympathesizers have to ADD initiall factors to the debate to cloud the discussion and blur the lines between fact and fiction.

Hence, "what are the Israelis doin on Arab land?" becomes "why isnt the palestinian authority reigning in military groups?"

See that's what happens when I show yall where yall are wrong, the usual propaganda victims suddenly decide to proclaim the other side as the one clouding the discussion, yall really do crack me up....lol :)....Suddenly the fact of the Palestinian people being used as a decoy, camouflaging territorial ambitions from within the totalitarian Arab world from the dawn of their existence as a nation, up to our times, when they are used by terroristic power structures within their own autonomy as a tool for gaining positions of power, is being omitted. I'm sorry you guys choose to ignore that the root of the problem is their pseudo-leadership and as soon as I point it out for you- you choose to call it "clouding the discussion". It doesn't take a genuis to figure out the truth but it does require some research since this is a very complex conflict being that it is essentially an inner conflict within the Palestinian population that simply casts on Israel.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 28, 2005, 12:29:57 PM
Ok, let's say there's a kid and he gets his ass beat by some stranger on the street. Then he gets home and his dad beats him. So does that mean that since his dad beat him, he was never a victim to the stranger? Does that mean it never happened? LOLLL how can you say Palestinians aren't victims to Zionism.... your English seems good enough, so I don't expect you to not understand what I mean when I say that yes, the Palestinians have been fucked over by their own leadership at times, but does that mean they weren't victims to Zionism? You sound like one of those retards who say the Holocaust never happened. Your brain is being handled on super cycle.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: 7even on October 28, 2005, 02:40:51 PM
Just for the record, I'm not American. In fact, some republicans even think I'm Anti-American, which I'm not really. I just see what I see and some things I see I don't like, no matter who's involved. Unlike most people, I don't try to argue for someone who's wrong because he somehow appeals to me (because of race, nation, religion, whatever) , but I try to see who's wrong and then argue against him.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 28, 2005, 03:11:59 PM
Ok, let's say there's a kid and he gets his ass beat by some stranger on the street. Then he gets home and his dad beats him. So does that mean that since his dad beat him, he was never a victim to the stranger? Does that mean it never happened? LOLLL how can you say Palestinians aren't victims to Zionism.... your English seems good enough, so I don't expect you to not understand what I mean when I say that yes, the Palestinians have been fucked over by their own leadership at times, but does that mean they weren't victims to Zionism? You sound like one of those retards who say the Holocaust never happened. Your brain is being handled on super cycle.

First of all I would like to thank you for quoting me in your signature, what an honor  8) And now since I understand you are a fan of analogies I'll supply one myself:

Let's say there is this kid and he gets abused by his dominating father (after his mother past away, giving birth to him, so he's all the father has), abused so badly he blocks it out completely and as he growes up he can't fully sustain his repression(in the psychological sence) so he becomes angry with everything and as the boy reaches puberty he meets people who figure out his problems and offer him help working out his issues but since the father is now old and can't support himself and can't afford his son leaving him or finding out the truth about his childhood so he uses the rooted control and deterrence he's established over his son through conditioning at an early age to setting him against his new friends claiming that they are hostile and are trying to break up their family while also trying to take away their house, at the same time, he hires assassins to kill his son's new friends, they fail, and when the son's new friends figure out who sent the assassins and that they're dealing with an old psychopath they call the police on him. The son seeing his "family" being taken apart just as his father warned him is becoming assured of the fact his new friends are ploting against him and his family so he decides to fight them.  


p.s I'm glad you've mentioned The Holocaust Deniers since the current leader of the Palestinian Autonomy is one.AGAIN, I've never denied innocents may have gotten hurt on the Palestinian side all I said was that the ones who caused it were those terrorist power structures whose number one goal is to hurt Israeli civilians, something they openly proclaim, along with the Palestinian leadership, otherwise the leaders would've eradicated terrorism within their authority themselves without coercing Israel to do so, they know Israel can't focus its foiling operations to an extent innocents won't get hurt. You keep ignoring everything that has been discussed up untill now, you're back to square one.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 28, 2005, 03:47:37 PM
Just for the record, I'm not American. In fact, some republicans even think I'm Anti-American, which I'm not really. I just see what I see and some things I see I don't like, no matter who's involved. Unlike most people, I don't try to argue for someone who's wrong because he somehow appeals to me (because of race, nation, religion, whatever) , but I try to see who's wrong and then argue against him.

Well.... you'll have something more to throw in their faces from now on while arguing, hey as long as you're learning something new man. But it doesn't really matter since you're still supposed to oppose the USA much more than you oppose Israel according to the views you claim to possess.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 28, 2005, 03:54:05 PM

The Palestinian people ARE IN NO WAY VICTIMS OF ZIONISM-

AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH....Damn, i needed that on a friday afternoon

LMAO see this is what I like about you Tech, you'z a funny dude ;D
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: King Tech Quadafi on October 28, 2005, 05:10:25 PM
thanks buddy...i now wish death on all israelis except you....and may be your family



maybe
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 28, 2005, 05:17:27 PM
Ok, let's say there's a kid and he gets his ass beat by some stranger on the street. Then he gets home and his dad beats him. So does that mean that since his dad beat him, he was never a victim to the stranger? Does that mean it never happened? LOLLL how can you say Palestinians aren't victims to Zionism.... your English seems good enough, so I don't expect you to not understand what I mean when I say that yes, the Palestinians have been fucked over by their own leadership at times, but does that mean they weren't victims to Zionism? You sound like one of those retards who say the Holocaust never happened. Your brain is being handled on super cycle.

First of all I would like to thank you for quoting me in your signature, what an honor  8) And now since I understand you are a fan of analogies I'll supply one myself:

Let's say there is this kid and he gets abused by his dominating father (after his mother past away, giving birth to him, so he's all the father has), abused so badly he blocks it out completely and as he growes up he can't fully sustain his repression(in the psychological sence) so he becomes angry with everything and as the boy reaches puberty he meets people who figure out his problems and offer him help working out his issues but since the father is now old and can't support himself and can't afford his son leaving him or finding out the truth about his childhood so he uses the rooted control and deterrence he's established over his son through conditioning at an early age to setting him against his new friends claiming that they are hostile and are trying to break up their family while also trying to take away their house, at the same time, he hires assassins to kill his son's new friends, they fail, and when the son's new friends figure out who sent the assassins and that they're dealing with an old psychopath they call the police on him. The son seeing his "family" being taken apart just as his father warned him is becoming assured of the fact his new friends are ploting against him and his family so he decides to fight them.  


p.s I'm glad you've mentioned The Holocaust Deniers since the current leader of the Palestinian Autonomy is one.AGAIN, I've never denied innocents may have gotten hurt on the Palestinian side all I said was that the ones who caused it were those terrorist power structures whose number one goal is to hurt Israeli civilians, something they openly proclaim, along with the Palestinian leadership, otherwise the leaders would've eradicated terrorism within their authority themselves without coercing Israel to do so, they know Israel can't focus its foiling operations to an extent innocents won't get hurt. You keep ignoring everything that has been discussed up untill now, you're back to square one.

So Palestinians have been victims to Zionism/Israel... and the Palestinian leadership didn't make things any better...

To me the IDF is a terrorist power structure... the state of Israel was founded on terrorism...

Back to Square 1 it is... except this is where it stays... no second chances for you, you've been fucked up
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 29, 2005, 03:23:56 AM
Ok, let's say there's a kid and he gets his ass beat by some stranger on the street. Then he gets home and his dad beats him. So does that mean that since his dad beat him, he was never a victim to the stranger? Does that mean it never happened? LOLLL how can you say Palestinians aren't victims to Zionism.... your English seems good enough, so I don't expect you to not understand what I mean when I say that yes, the Palestinians have been fucked over by their own leadership at times, but does that mean they weren't victims to Zionism? You sound like one of those retards who say the Holocaust never happened. Your brain is being handled on super cycle.

First of all I would like to thank you for quoting me in your signature, what an honor  8) And now since I understand you are a fan of analogies I'll supply one myself:

Let's say there is this kid and he gets abused by his dominating father (after his mother past away, giving birth to him, so he's all the father has), abused so badly he blocks it out completely and as he growes up he can't fully sustain his repression(in the psychological sence) so he becomes angry with everything and as the boy reaches puberty he meets people who figure out his problems and offer him help working out his issues but since the father is now old and can't support himself and can't afford his son leaving him or finding out the truth about his childhood so he uses the rooted control and deterrence he's established over his son through conditioning at an early age to setting him against his new friends claiming that they are hostile and are trying to break up their family while also trying to take away their house, at the same time, he hires assassins to kill his son's new friends, they fail, and when the son's new friends figure out who sent the assassins and that they're dealing with an old psychopath they call the police on him. The son seeing his "family" being taken apart just as his father warned him is becoming assured of the fact his new friends are ploting against him and his family so he decides to fight them.  


p.s I'm glad you've mentioned The Holocaust Deniers since the current leader of the Palestinian Autonomy is one.AGAIN, I've never denied innocents may have gotten hurt on the Palestinian side all I said was that the ones who caused it were those terrorist power structures whose number one goal is to hurt Israeli civilians, something they openly proclaim, along with the Palestinian leadership, otherwise the leaders would've eradicated terrorism within their authority themselves without coercing Israel to do so, they know Israel can't focus its foiling operations to an extent innocents won't get hurt. You keep ignoring everything that has been discussed up untill now, you're back to square one.

So Palestinians have been victims to Zionism/Israel... and the Palestinian leadership didn't make things any better...

To me the IDF is a terrorist power structure... the state of Israel was founded on terrorism...

Back to Square 1 it is... except this is where it stays... no second chances for you, you've been fucked up


You're almost there but you are still blending the concepts of attack and defence- IDF is a DEFENCE ARMY. Palestinians have been victims to their own leadership and to a number of terroristic power structures their leadership had been supporting and supports nowadays,  since their attacks on Israel were first of all to kill Israeli civilians and second of all they were to trigger an Israeli retaliation on the terrorists, that would result in a number of innocent deaths, since Israel is physicaly unable to focus its foiling operations to an extent innocents wouldn't get hurt since most of these terrorists live among the peaceful population in the autonomy and the Palestinian leadership is well aware of this. Even though they seemed to condemn terrorism in front of the cameras, they DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO STOP TERRORISM WITHIN THEIR AUTHORITY AND TO PREVENT ISRAEL FROM CONDUCTING FOILING OPERATIONS TO UPROOT TERRORISTIC FACTORS. When you CHOOSE A DEMEANOR you CHOOSE THE CONSEQUENCES, but when you're a part of the leadership YOU CHOOSE CONSEQUENCES FOR YOUR ENTIRE NATION (and it is much less fair in my opinion when the leadership wasn't elected by the people of the nation) --->BUUUURN!!....No matter what I say you'll come up with more bullshit fogginess, evading facts and ignoring order of events...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 29, 2005, 03:40:43 AM
thanks buddy...i now wish death on all israelis except you....and may be your family



maybe

LOL Don't be so fast with proclamations, after all, I've served in the IDF.
 ;)
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 29, 2005, 07:48:05 AM
And in addition to my last few statements:

UNSCOP (United Nations Special Committee on Palestine)-
"Appointed in April 1947 to investigate the situation in Palestine and propose solutions. The majority of the committee recommended to partition Palestine, giving the Negev and a small part of the western part of the country to the Jews and giving what is now the West Bank and most of the northern part of the country to the Arabs. The Arab Higher Committee REJECTED the partition plan, the Jewish Agency accepted it."

And I ask you- WHY?

Now as for further events:

Palestinian Refugees-

"About 600,000 Palestinian (other estimates range form 500,000 to 800,0000) fled Israel between 1947 and 1949, fundamentally because of the Arab states' rejection of the United Nation partition plan and invasion of Israel. The refugees fled out of fear of war and in response to Arab leaders' calls for Arabs to evacuate the areas allocated to the Jews until Israel had been eliminated. In a handful of cases, Palestinians were expelled. A majority of the refugees and their descendants now live in the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights and the West Bank. About 360,000 Palestinians fled eastern Jerusalem, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights during and after Israel's defensive 1967 War. Palestinian who fled in 1967 are technically considered displaced persons and do not have official refugee status. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency estimated that 175,000 of these 360,000 Palestinians were refugees from the 1948 War. The May 4, 1994, Gaza-Jericho Accord calls for Israel, the Palestinians, Jordan, and Egypt to form a Continuing Committee to discuss the 1967 displaced persons. The problem of the 1947-1949 refugees, on the other hand, is to be left for the “final status” negotiations under the terms of the Israeli-PLO Declaration of Principles of September 13, 1993."

DESPITE THE Absentee Property Law-

"The law that states that land that was abandoned by Arabs in Palestine before the creation of the State of Israel, now belongs to the State of Israel."


Additional info for pondering:

Jewish Refugees from Arab Lands-

"Prior to the establishment of Israel, more than 850,000 Jews lived in Arab countries. After Israel achieved independence, many of these Jews were persecuted by their governments and compelled to leave, despite having lived in some of their communities for more than 2,500 years. Between 1948 and 1972, 820,000 Jews left Arab countries, 586,000 were resettled in Israel at great expense, and without any offer of compensation from the Arab governments who confiscated their possessions. "


ALL PURE FACTS.

DO THE MATH AND VIEW THE CAUSES.

P.S

Palestinians-

"Although anyone with roots in the land that is now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza is technically a Palestinian, the term is now more commonly used to refer to Arabs with such roots. Palestinian nationalism, as distinguished from Arab nationalism, did not emerge until after World War I. Most of the world's Palestinian population is concentrated in Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Jordan, although many Palestinians live in Lebanon, Syria and other Arab countries. "

Intrafada-

"Cycle of violence coinciding with the intifada in which nearly 1,000 Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians on suspicion of “collaborating” with Israel."



Israeli Arabs-

"Arabs who are citizens of Israel, including Palestinian Arabs who chose to stay in their homes rather than flee in 1947-1949, and other Arabs who were allowed to become naturalized citizens. Approximately 20 percent of the Israeli population are Arabs. Israeli Arabs enjoy equal rights with Israeli Jews in Israel. The one exception is that Israeli Arabs are not required to serve in the military, though some, including all Druze, do choose to serve. "
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 29, 2005, 09:43:19 AM
Damn I must be getting older because I almost forgot:

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194-

"Non-binding resolution adopted on December 11, 1948, which called upon the Arab states and Israel to resolve all outstanding issues through negotiations. It also said that refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so, that compensation should be paid for property, and that the Conciliation Commission should facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of refugees. The Arab states unanimously rejected the resolution, but subsequently argued it recognized a “right of return” for Palestinian refugees. Israel disputes this interpretation and has consistently said the refugee issue, including Jews who fled Arab countries, should be negotiated as part of an overall peace agreement. "


Hmmm...I wonder why 'The Arab States' eventually decided to reconsider, don't you?? 8)

GOOD LUCK BULLSHITING HOMIES!!!!
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on October 31, 2005, 12:17:34 PM
Yes, but I wasn't arguing that... you're making a statement that I didn't even argue...

In regards to what the government does on purpose, I mentioned the demolishing of homes.... not just "terrorist homes"... the government demolished homes that were in the way of the wall being built on Palestinian land. Comprende?



Point is, government doesn't demolish homes with intentions of harming those within the household...That's all I've been sayin.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on October 31, 2005, 12:32:03 PM
I honestly think that I Geezy has the most knowledge on the subject, due to the fact that it's part of his daily life and he's actually served for what he's defending...We're all just 3rd person perspective on this shit, I Geezy is actually part of it, so it's only common sense that his word is more credible.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 31, 2005, 12:44:22 PM
Yes, but I wasn't arguing that... you're making a statement that I didn't even argue...

In regards to what the government does on purpose, I mentioned the demolishing of homes.... not just "terrorist homes"... the government demolished homes that were in the way of the wall being built on Palestinian land. Comprende?
Point is, government doesn't demolish homes with intentions of harming those within the household...That's all I've been sayin.

LOL... what's wrong with demolishing homes is just that... the demolishing of homes... I didn't mention anything about harming those within the household. And no, that's not all you've been saying... you said that the military demolishes homes and the government has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 31, 2005, 12:46:04 PM
I honestly think that I Geezy has the most knowledge on the subject, due to the fact that it's part of his daily life and he's actually served for what he's defending...We're all just 3rd person perspective on this shit, I Geezy is actually part of it, so it's only common sense that his word is more credible.

Yes, and there would be no bias on his part what so ever.... you're right.

When someone states that Palestinians are in no way victims of Zionism, it just goes to show you how reliable that "perspective" is.

And the argument at hand wasn't about the current situation... so the knowledge of the actual history (not I Geezy's version) can be known by any outsider... there are people in the U.S. who still believe that Columbus was a great guy who just discovered a new continent on his way to India and turned the barbaric natives into civilized people.... but there are people in let's say Europe, who know that isn't true. I Geezy's OPINION doesn't really matter much. As I've stated earlier, I'm simply approaching this in an objective way with facts and he feels the need to include his opinion, views, feelings, etc... and I really don't give a shit about what he "thinks".
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on October 31, 2005, 01:27:37 PM
I honestly think that I Geezy has the most knowledge on the subject, due to the fact that it's part of his daily life and he's actually served for what he's defending...We're all just 3rd person perspective on this shit, I Geezy is actually part of it, so it's only common sense that his word is more credible.

Yes, and there would be no bias on his part what so ever.... you're right.

When someone states that Palestinians are in no way victims of Zionism, it just goes to show you how reliable that "perspective" is.

And the argument at hand wasn't about the current situation... so the knowledge of the actual history (not I Geezy's version) can be known by any outsider... there are people in the U.S. who still believe that Columbus was a great guy who just discovered a new continent on his way to India and turned the barbaric natives into civilized people.... but there are people in let's say Europe, who know that isn't true. I Geezy's OPINION doesn't really matter much. As I've stated earlier, I'm simply approaching this in an objective way with facts and he feels the need to include his opinion, views, feelings, etc... and I really don't give a shit about what he "thinks".

I suppose you missed my last two posts where you could see my "opinions" were simply conclusions of facts you and many more self-proclaimed experts on this conflict chose to disregard.
Screening "facts"  is as good as a lie.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on October 31, 2005, 04:08:50 PM
Yes, but I wasn't arguing that... you're making a statement that I didn't even argue...

In regards to what the government does on purpose, I mentioned the demolishing of homes.... not just "terrorist homes"... the government demolished homes that were in the way of the wall being built on Palestinian land. Comprende?
Point is, government doesn't demolish homes with intentions of harming those within the household...That's all I've been sayin.

LOL... what's wrong with demolishing homes is just that... the demolishing of homes... I didn't mention anything about harming those within the household. And no, that's not all you've been saying... you said that the military demolishes homes and the government has nothing to do with it.


I was implying that the government has nothing to do with the WRONG homes being demolished.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on October 31, 2005, 04:21:49 PM
Yes, but I wasn't arguing that... you're making a statement that I didn't even argue...

In regards to what the government does on purpose, I mentioned the demolishing of homes.... not just "terrorist homes"... the government demolished homes that were in the way of the wall being built on Palestinian land. Comprende?
Point is, government doesn't demolish homes with intentions of harming those within the household...That's all I've been sayin.

LOL... what's wrong with demolishing homes is just that... the demolishing of homes... I didn't mention anything about harming those within the household. And no, that's not all you've been saying... you said that the military demolishes homes and the government has nothing to do with it.


I was implying that the government has nothing to do with the WRONG homes being demolished.
its not just homes, the worst thing is they demolish farms n shit i can see absolutley no military reason for this except for punishing the civllian population
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on October 31, 2005, 04:29:16 PM
Yes, but I wasn't arguing that... you're making a statement that I didn't even argue...

In regards to what the government does on purpose, I mentioned the demolishing of homes.... not just "terrorist homes"... the government demolished homes that were in the way of the wall being built on Palestinian land. Comprende?
Point is, government doesn't demolish homes with intentions of harming those within the household...That's all I've been sayin.

LOL... what's wrong with demolishing homes is just that... the demolishing of homes... I didn't mention anything about harming those within the household. And no, that's not all you've been saying... you said that the military demolishes homes and the government has nothing to do with it.


I was implying that the government has nothing to do with the WRONG homes being demolished.
its not just homes, the worst thing is they demolish farms n shit i can see absolutley no military reason for this except for punishing the civllian population


Good, you still can't prove the reason...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 31, 2005, 10:23:29 PM
Yes, but I wasn't arguing that... you're making a statement that I didn't even argue...

In regards to what the government does on purpose, I mentioned the demolishing of homes.... not just "terrorist homes"... the government demolished homes that were in the way of the wall being built on Palestinian land. Comprende?
Point is, government doesn't demolish homes with intentions of harming those within the household...That's all I've been sayin.

LOL... what's wrong with demolishing homes is just that... the demolishing of homes... I didn't mention anything about harming those within the household. And no, that's not all you've been saying... you said that the military demolishes homes and the government has nothing to do with it.


I was implying that the government has nothing to do with the WRONG homes being demolished.

LOL... the government hasn't even denied that, so why are you denying it for them?...

So the soldiers say, "I'm kind of bored, let's go demolish those homes over there.."

Ok I know the IDF is fucked up and kills innocent people for no reason, but let's give them some credit... they're probably more organized than to just demolish random homes... the government controls the demolishing of homes... it's like our government here controls the building of freeways... just because you don't see the same guys wearing the suits and signing the papers down in the construction zone, doesn't mean it's the construction workers' choice to build that freeway... get it? I hope so...

Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on October 31, 2005, 10:25:29 PM
Yes, but I wasn't arguing that... you're making a statement that I didn't even argue...

In regards to what the government does on purpose, I mentioned the demolishing of homes.... not just "terrorist homes"... the government demolished homes that were in the way of the wall being built on Palestinian land. Comprende?
Point is, government doesn't demolish homes with intentions of harming those within the household...That's all I've been sayin.

LOL... what's wrong with demolishing homes is just that... the demolishing of homes... I didn't mention anything about harming those within the household. And no, that's not all you've been saying... you said that the military demolishes homes and the government has nothing to do with it.


I was implying that the government has nothing to do with the WRONG homes being demolished.
its not just homes, the worst thing is they demolish farms n shit i can see absolutley no military reason for this except for punishing the civllian population


Good, you still can't prove the reason...

1. I wasn't arguing the reason. I was just stating that it's happening. It's like talking about murder, and me stating that a murder occurred, and you being on the defense saying "well you can't prove if it was 1st or 2nd degree"...

2. The Israeli government has admitted to demolishing homes to make room for the wall. There's no way to justify something like that.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on November 01, 2005, 12:43:04 AM
Yes, but I wasn't arguing that... you're making a statement that I didn't even argue...

In regards to what the government does on purpose, I mentioned the demolishing of homes.... not just "terrorist homes"... the government demolished homes that were in the way of the wall being built on Palestinian land. Comprende?
Point is, government doesn't demolish homes with intentions of harming those within the household...That's all I've been sayin.

LOL... what's wrong with demolishing homes is just that... the demolishing of homes... I didn't mention anything about harming those within the household. And no, that's not all you've been saying... you said that the military demolishes homes and the government has nothing to do with it.


I was implying that the government has nothing to do with the WRONG homes being demolished.

LOL... the government hasn't even denied that, so why are you denying it for them?...

So the soldiers say, "I'm kind of bored, let's go demolish those homes over there.."

Ok I know the IDF is fucked up and kills innocent people for no reason, but let's give them some credit... they're probably more organized than to just demolish random homes... the government controls the demolishing of homes... it's like our government here controls the building of freeways... just because you don't see the same guys wearing the suits and signing the papers down in the construction zone, doesn't mean it's the construction workers' choice to build that freeway... get it? I hope so...




You simply believe the Israeli government has evil intentions of killing innocent and unrightfuly destroying shit for no good purpose while I don't...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on November 01, 2005, 02:21:45 AM
Where did I mention that I knew their intent? LOL I actually stated the exact opposite by stating that I don't know their intent, only that it's happening. I'm stating facts, not opinions. You guys are the ones bringing your own opinions into this. However, there is no way to justify the demolishing of homes... especially not when it's "to make room for a wall"
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 01, 2005, 09:31:01 AM
I would recommend that you guys read this, could be eye opening. When you were once talking about how simple this conflict is you reminded me of this piece, glad I could paste it to help you to confront reality.

 

Rewriting History in Textbooks
By Mitchell Bard
(December 1993)


Executive Summary
The political correctness debate has led to increased scrutiny of how textbooks present the history of different peoples. While many minorities have actively campaigned to have their histories more accurately depicted, Jews have stayed on the sidelines. The following examination of 18 of the most widely used world and American history texts indicates this silence has allowed publishers to distribute books that are filled with egregious factual errors and specious analyses. The mistakes invariably are to the detriment of the Jews or Israel, raising questions about the predisposition of authors and publishers.

The anti-Israel bias is usually a result of factual inaccuracy, oversimplification, omission and distortion. Common errors include getting dates of events wrong, blaming Israel for wars that were a result of Arab provocation, perpetuating the myth of Islamic tolerance of Jews, minimizing the Jewish aspect of the Holocaust, apologizing for Arab autocrats, refusing to label violence against civilians as terrorism and suggesting that Israel is the obstacle to peace. Some of the most flagrant examples that occur in more than one book are the failure to mention that Syria and Egypt launched a surprise attack in 1973 on Israel's holiest day, Yom Kippur, and that Iraq fired SCUD missiles at Israel during the 1991 Gulf War. The books in this study were so poorly written that all but one require major revisions.

The best way to correct the bias in textbooks is for parents to take an active role by examining the books their children are being assigned. If they know or suspect that Jewish history is being distorted, they should protest to the school, school board and publisher. The study does not suggest that anti-Semitic publishers are conspiring to corrupt our nation's youth. On the contrary, it acknowledges that errors are most likely to occur because editors are harried or the books are inadequately reviewed by experts. The best publishers do now want mistakes in their texts. It is up to parents and educators, however, to alert them when they occur so they can be corrected. The result will then be that publishers produce better books and students have more useful educational tools.


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For the last several years publishers have been pressured to revise textbooks to better reflect multicultural values. As in the political correctness debate, in general, Jews have stayed mostly on the sidelines. The result is that distortions of Jewish history have become a feature of some of the most frequently assigned textbooks and little effort has been made to monitor or rectify the situation.

To be fair, writing textbooks that satisfy everyone is probably impossible. Most have multiple authors and are therefore unevenly written. The authors rarely have a background in Middle East or Jewish history. Moreover, in 800-page tomes designed to cover all of world and American history, events must be condensed. In the case of U. S. history texts, space devoted to Jews, Israel and the Middle East is by necessity limited. Still, given the extent of media coverage on the Middle East, and the level of U.S. aid provided to Israel, one might expect greater efforts would be made to explain the basis of the U.S.-Israel alliance.

Occasional mistakes can be expected to slip through the editing process. Still, it is startling to find references to the 1973 war that failed to mention that Egypt and Syria launched a surprise attack against Israel on Yom Kippur, or that some recent texts describe the 1991 Gulf War and omit that Iraq fired SCUD missiles at Israel. After reviewing 11 world and 7 American history texts that are among the most widely used, it became clear, however, that inadequate and inaccurate depictions of Middle East history are the norm. The books reviewed here are riddled with flaws. Moreover, errors are consistently to the detriment of the Jews or Israel, which raises questions about the predisposition of the authors and publishers. The anti-Israel bias rarely is manifested in the way material is interpreted, it is usually a result of factual inaccuracy, oversimplification, omission and distortion. The conclusions students are most likely to draw from these presentations are those held by Israel's detractors; therefore, it should not be surprising if students are easily encouraged to believe the worst about Israel when they reach politicized college campuses. Even more worrisome is the likelihood that future American leaders will have their earliest political attitudes toward Israel shaped by misinformation.

Outright Errors
Here are a few examples of factual inaccuracies: T. Walter Wallbank and Arnold Schrier start their chapter on the Middle East in Living World History (Scott, Foresman and Co., 1990) with a photo captioned: "the Amal fighters of the Palestine Liberation Organization keep watch over Beirut." Amal is an organization of Lebanese Shiite Muslims that fought with the PLO. Paul Thomas Welty and Miriam Greenblatt, in The Human Experience-World Regions and Cultures (Glencoe, 1992), say the PLO was expelled from Jordan in 1971 rather than 1970. In the earlier edition of The Human Experience-A World History (Merrill 1990, 1992), Mounir Farah and Andrea Karls wrote that the Arabs attacked a "few days" after Israel declared independence. The 1992 edition correctly states that the invasion occurred within 24 hours.

The ignorance of geography among high school students has often been decried, but how can they be blamed when they read this description in Global Insights-People And Culture (Glencoe, 1988, 1994), written by James Hantula et al.: "An area of Middle Eastern land, surrounded by Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, used to be called Palestine, and Arabs and Jews lived there." The name Palestine was given to an area that existed before Syria, Saudi Arabia or Lebanon existed. In 1921, Britain severed nearly four-fifths of Palestine to create Transjordan (later Jordan).

Another general problem is oversimplification. Though the reading skills of high school students have deteriorated, it was still shocking to discover the "See Spot run" kind of descriptions offered by some texts. The worst book of the 18 under review, World History, by Jerome Reich, Mark Krug and Edward Biller (Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1990), contains the following sentence: "The Jewish people were very unhappy under Roman rule." No further explanation is given. The authors devote a total of five pages to the Middle East, out of more than 700, and half are taken up by a map and photos. This is what they say about Israel's war of independence: "Fighting began between Israel and the Arab nations in 1948. This fighting ended in a victory for Israel." The book does not even mention the Palestinians.

Melvin Schwartz and John O'Connor write in Exploring A Changing World (Globe Book, 1993): "In 1948 the nation of Israel was formed. This started a war." Later, they say: "Since the 1948 war, border fights have broken out. Again in 1956, 1967, 1973 and 1982, Israel and some of its Arab neighbors went to war....Israel is still involved in conflicts with its neighbors, especially Lebanon."

Similarly, Hantula et al. relate in Global Insights that "at the core of these [Arab-Israeli wars] was disagreement over who owns the land of Israel, once called Palestine." After the 1948 war, they say, three other wars "broke out." This is the extent of how the text covers the 1948-77 period.

Islamic Tolerance
Perhaps the most serious flaws in most books are distortions resulting from a combination of omission and commission. This is particularly true of the coverage of Islamic history and Muslims' treatment of Jews in the world history texts. The increased attention given to Islam is one change made to recent editions. Its prominence is now at least equal to that of Judaism and Christianity and, in some books, surpasses them. The significance of Islam to world history is not in doubt. What is historically inaccurate, however, is the portrayal of Muslims as paragons of tolerance, particularly regarding Jews.

Don Peretz, a Middle East scholar who should know better, wrote in the regional studies text, The Middle Fast (Houghton Mifflin, 1990), that Muslim conquests in the 7th Century were welcomed by Jews because they were offered religious toleration. As proof of this toleration, he said Jews were appointed to high positions. Wallbank and Schrier's Living World History says that conquered peoples "were generally treated with leniency" by Muslims. Several books cite Maimonides as an example of how Jews flourished under Islam.

In Global Insights, Hantula et al. refer to dhimmas, which they define as "non-Muslims who lived under Islamic rule." The authors say dhimmas did not have to serve in the army, but did pay poll taxes. Many Jews, they add, became famous court physicians. The authors acknowledge that "during certain periods of Islamic rule, non-Muslims in some areas were restricted in their activities and in the way they dressed," but they imply this was justified because it "generally happened when there was an invasion by foreigners toward whom local non-Muslims were sympathetic."

World History-Patterns of Civilization (Prentice Hall, 1990) by Benton Beers is one of the few books that hints that life was not so ideal, noting that Islam protected Jews "in theory if not always in practice." Farah and Karls put it differently, writing that Jews were "treated better under Muslim rule than they had been before" but did not have all the advantages Muslims did. While Jewish communities in Islamic countries fared better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe, Jews were no strangers to persecution and humiliation among the Arabs. As historian Bernard Lewis has written: "The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy with Islam" ("The Pro-Islamic Jews," Judaism, Fall 1968, p. 401).

Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews. Jews did thrive culturally and economically at certain times, but their position was never secure and changes in the political and social climate would often lead to harassment, violence and death.

The Holocaust
In the last two years, efforts by historical revisionists to place advertisements in American college newspapers received a great deal of publicity. Such efforts to negate or minimize the catastrophe that befell the Jews might not cause so much concern if people had greater confidence in the quality of education students received about the Holocaust. Any confidence that may exist is likely to be shaken, however, by looking at how U.S. high school textbooks treat the subject.

Based on the 18 books reviewed here, it would be incorrect to say that revisionists have had any impact on publishers. In general, the American history texts are far better than those covering world history. The most consistent problem is that so little space is devoted to the Holocaust that the magnitude of the atrocities of the Nazi period is lost. Most of the books spent no more than two or three paragraphs on this cataclysmic event. World History, by Reich et al., for example, devotes two sentences to the Holocaust and the word does not appear in their index. Jack Abramowitz, in World History-For A Global Age (Globe Book Co., 1985), is a little better, he has two paragraphs.

American history texts often skip the period of Nazi persecution prior to the war. In American Journey (Prentice Hall, 1992), for example, James West Davidson et al. have a single line stating that Hitler blamed the Jews for Germany's defeat in World War I.

Usually, the critical aspects of the Nazi terror are ignored. World History-Patterns of Civilization by Beers, for example, describes Kristallnacht (without using the word) and implies the cause of the pogrom was a Jew who murdered a German diplomat in Paris. In The Middle East, Peretz says Nazi persecution of the Jews began with Kristallnacht. In The Human Experience—A World History, Farah and Karls define concentration camps as "large prisons" and the Holocaust as "widespread destruction." Gary Nash's American Odyssey (Glencoe, 199 1) provides good information through pictures and quotations about synagogues being torched, Jews being forced to wear yellow stars, Kristallnacht and Nazi propaganda, but the material is poorly organized.

The true horror of events is not captured in any of the books. In most, it is reduced to the statistic that six million Jews were killed. In their three paragraphs on the subject, Welty and Greenblatt (The Human Experience--World Regions and Cultures, Glencoe, 1992), mention that people were killed with poison gas but say nothing about gas chambers or crematoria.

Wallbank and Schrier's Living World History devotes more space than most books to the subject, but leaves readers confused because of the way the material is spread across different chapters. In their section on the war, mention is made of 11 million people being killed, but Jews are just lumped in with the rest. That six million of these were Jews is not stated until later in the book. Similarly, the word "Holocaust" does not appear until they review the war crimes trials, 40 pages after discussing (in greater detail than most) the Nazi persecution of the Jews. This also is one of several books that refer to the Nuremberg trials without explaining their significance.

One misleading assertion concerning the Holocaust is that the Final Solution was not "fully discovered" until after the war. The American history texts usually say that reports reached the Allies during the war, but the full horror was not revealed until the camps were liberated. Farah and Karls acknowledge in The Human Experience-A World History that the Allies heard "rumors" about Nazi genocide, but like the other world history books fail to report what American officials knew and what actions they took (and did not take) on the basis of that information. The United States and Its People (Addison-Wesley, 1993) by David King, Norman McRae and Jaye Zola is the most accurate in stating that American newspapers began reporting atrocities as early as 1942 and explaining reasons why they were not believed.

Given the quality of the writing on the Holocaust, it is not surprising that the centrality of the Nazi campaign against the Jews is sometimes lost. Schwartz and O'Connor write in Exploring A Changing World, for example: "For about 2,000 years, many Jewish people lived in Europe. But during the rule of Adolf Hitler in Germany, millions of Jews were killed." Like most books, they mention that Hitler "blamed all of the country's troubles on the Jews." They go on to say that "Hitler had six million Jews and many other innocent people murdered in what became known as the Holocaust."

The American history texts focus more on the U.S. government's position, and several refer to the immigration restrictions imposed before and during the war. Mary Beth Norton et al., in A People & A Nation (Houghton Mifflin, 1990), for example, tell the story of the St. Louis and the Bermuda Conference. They and several others also talk about the failure of the Allies to bomb Auschwitz.

One reflection of the popular value-free approach to history is the tendency to equate actions to avoid assigning responsibility or appearing to take sides. Thus, for example, in World History-Traditions and New Directions (Addison-Wesley, 1989), Peter Steams, Donald Schwartz and Barry Beyer draw an astonishing parallel between the actions of the Germans and the Allies. "Nazi murder of the Jews and other groups was the foremost atrocity of the war, but the Allies also acted harshly," they write.

The most obvious conclusion to draw from reading textbook descriptions, particularly in the world history books, is that scholars need to write a few descriptive paragraphs that could be used to explain the Nazi extermination program, what made the experience of the Jews unique, and the impact it had on the world. Nash's American Odyssey and The United States and Its People by King et al. have good material to work from. Probably

the best section on the Holocaust in any of the 18 books appears in Henry Graff's America: The Glorious Republic (MA: Houghton Mifflin, Co., 1988).

Apologists for Authoritarianism
Despite the attention given to Islam, there is a clear lack of proportion to the space devoted to the 20 members of the Arab League. Most books write little or nothing about countries other than Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Peretz, for example, devotes chapters in The Middle East to Israel and Egypt and a third one to the rest of the Arab states. In World History--Traditions and New Directions, Stearns et al. spend 11 paragraphs on Israel and 11 on the other Middle East nations.

While the approach toward Islam strains for neutrality, the coverage of Arab politics tends toward apologetics. Inter-Arab conflict is rarely mentioned. Abramowitz, in World History for A Global Age, is one of the few who spent as much as a paragraph on the subject, and he referred only to the Palestinians in Jordan.

The most serious distortion appears in the descriptions of Arab regimes, which are usually portrayed in benign or positive terms, and the ascension of leaders to power is grossly misrepresented. Beers writes in World History-Patterns of Civilization that Hafez Assad simply "became President" of Syria in 1971. Wallbank and Schrier say the same thing in Living World History, under the subhead: "Egypt, Syria and Iraq benefitted from strong leadership." They do add that Assad has ruled "with an iron hand," but they seem to justify it by explaining that the Muslim Brotherhood carried out more than 300 assassinations in 1981. Assad kept Syria united, Wallbank and Schrier say, "at the cost of dictatorship and the absence of free expression." They fail to mention that he also put down the Brotherhood's rebellion by razing the city of Hama and killing as many as 25,000 people.

In The Middle East, Peretz at least mentions the coups in Iraq and Syria that were the most frequent method of changing governments, but neither he nor any of the others point out the deficiencies in the political systems in the Arab countries. Schwartz and O'Connor write in Exploring A Changing World, for example, that since World War II, the newly independent Arab nations "have worked to establish stable governments." In The Human Experience--World Regions and Cultures, Welty and Greenblatt go so far as to excuse Arab governments for adopting authoritarian forms of government. They assert that military takeovers are common because army officers are better educated, the army is the most effective power base other than religion and historical tradition favors military rule in the Arab world. These are the same authors who write that one of Faisal's first acts as King of Saudi Arabia in 1964 was to abolish slavery, as if nothing was unusual about the practice of slavery a century after the Emancipation Proclamation. They also ignore the evidence that slavery continues to be practiced in parts of the Arab world to this day.

Like some other authors, Steams et al. talk more about how the Arabs triumphantly threw off colonialism than how they subsequently imposed despotism. "Many leaders felt that the political challenges of rapid modernization required strong leadership and government control," students are taught in World History-Traditions and New Directions.

Furthermore, the books do not distinguish Israel's political system from that of the Arab states. Schwartz and O'Connor do observe in Exploring A Changing World that "Israel has one of the few democratic governments in this region," but it is not clear what other governments they have in mind as democracies.

Jewish Invaders
The coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict is particularly abysmal. Much of the crucial history of Palestine before 1948 is omitted, particularly from the U.S. history books. Those texts that discuss the mandatory period present the Arab version of history; that is, an unrestrained flood of Jewish immigrants invaded a land already inhabited by another people, who were subsequently forced out. The historical Jewish presence in the country is usually ignored. Beers, for example, implies in World History--Patterns of Civilization that no Jews lived in Palestine until Eastern Europeans came in the 1920's and 30's (nearly 40 years after the First Aliyah) and found more than 650,000 Arabs already living there. Farah and Karls write in The Human Experience-A World History that only 50,000 Jews, most from Eastern Europe, lived in Palestine at the time of the First World War, comprising only 10 percent of the population. The actual number was more than 80,000, closer to 15 percent of the total population. Welty and Greenblatt say in The Human Experience--World Regions and Cultures that Jews only migrated to Palestine from the 1920's on and give the impression the British did not impose restrictions until right before WWII. Peretz goes further in The Middle East and implies Zionists were given advantages by the British because the First High Commissioner, Herbert Samuel, was a Jew.

In the 1990 edition of The Human Experience-A World History, Farah and Karls mention that the British limited immigration and that Arabs staged protests and attacked Jews. It incorrectly states, however, that the Jews "rioted against British limits on immigration" in the 1920's. In the newer edition, they say the flow of immigrants "swelled to a torrent" during World War II and that the Arabs began to attack settlers to slow the influx. By the end of the war, they say, guerilla raids were common in Palestine, but do not specify who was responsible. They also fail to mention the extraordinary British efforts to curtail immigration at this time.

"Despite Arab opposition, the rate of Jewish immigration was stepped up, and the number of Jews in the country increased greatly, causing fear that they would soon outnumber the Arabs," according to Peretz in The Middle East. The truth is that Jewish immigration was constant from 1920 to 1923, increased about 60 percent in 1924 (to less than 14,000), and then nearly tripled in 1925. New restrictions were then imposed by the British, however, and the rate dropped back less than 14,000 the next year and then was no more than 5,200 in any year until 1932. The numbers began to dramatically increase again, reaching a peak of more than 66,000 in 1935, but then new limitations were imposed and the numbers fell equally dramatically for the next three years, to less than 15,000. Arabs did express fears of being dispossessed, but British commissions consistently found them unfounded (yet placed new restrictions on immigration). Meanwhile, no text offers any statistics regarding the immigration of Arabs into Palestine. Actually, the non-Jewish population grew more than the Jewish population between the wars.

A good deal of effort is also made to glorify Arab nationalism. Given the lack of attention to the nature of Arab regimes, these discussions imply a progressive movement toward democracy that has yet to occur. In The Middle East, Peretz asserts that nationalism was especially strong in Palestine after World War I, though he admits "its inhabitants did not consider themselves different from those who lived in the adjoining Arab regions that became the present-day nations of Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Jordan." Peretz: also incorrectly reports that Chaim Weizmann never reached an agreement with Emir Faisal, the son of Sherif Hussein. In fact, Faisal accepted the Balfour Declaration (another contradiction to the Arab claim that the Arabs believed the British promised them Palestine), but made the agreement contingent on the British fulfilling their promises. When they did not, the deal fell apart.

The American history books ignore Zionism, the waves of immigration to the holy land and the Balfour Declaration. In American Journey, Davidson et al. make it sound like the only Jews who wanted a homeland were those fleeing the Nazis.

Spontaneous Combustion
The mandatory period is described as a time when Arabs and Jews simultaneously or spontaneously clashed. Usually, no one is blamed for inciting the violence. Stearns et al. write in World History-Traditions and New Directions, for example, that Arabs lived in Palestine "for thousands of years." They mention violence between the two groups increasing over the years without drawing any distinctions as to whom the instigators were. Similarly, Beers says in World History--Patterns of Civilization that after World War II the Arabs felt threatened by a new wave of immigrants and "new clashes occurred .... The fighting escalated as Arabs and Jews fought to control the towns and villages of Palestine." Jewish immigration "continued and grew, until by the late 1930's, Jews accounted for nearly one-third of Palestine's population," Hantula et al. write in Global Insights. "Before long, riots and armed conflict broke out." But battles did not just break out, particularly at this time, when Arab guerrillas were carrying out most of the attacks. It was not until after the partition decision, and Arab forces had already begun to infiltrate, that Jews began to fight for control of towns and villages. The way these passages are written, however, the insinuation is that Jewish immigration rather than Arab rejectionism was the cause of the violence.

One of the more misleading accounts of the history leading up to the partition decision is presented by Wallbank and Schrier's Living World History, which says the Jews opposed an independent government based on a democratic vote because the government would have been dominated by Arabs. The implication is that the Arabs favored democracy while Zionists opposed it, and that the Palestinians wanted to hold a plebiscite to decide the fate of the area. In fact, nothing resembling democracy was extant in the Arab world and certainly was not a feature of Palestinian politics, which were driven primarily by longstanding clan relationships. The Arabs' position was that Palestine was only big enough for a state in which they would have total control, including the right to prevent Jewish immigration. After independence, Israel did adopt a democratic form of government in which Arab citizens had equal rights.

Though the United States played a vital role in the establishment of the State of Israel, little attention is paid to the crucial decisions made in 1947-48. Winthrop Jordan, Miriam Greenblatt and John Bowes write in The Americans (McDougal, Littell and Co., 1992) that the U.N. proclaimed the republic of Israel, but do not mention the creation of an Arab state or U.S. policy toward partition. Similarly, in History of the United States (Houghton Mifflin, 199 1), Thomas DiBacco, Lorna Mason and Christian Appy say that Jewish settlers founded the Jewish State. They do note that the Arab nations refused to accept Israel's existence and invaded after it was declared, but fail to elaborate.

According to Gary Nash's American Odyssey, "hostility between Arabs and Jews took root after World War II" (emphasis added). He says the Arabs dominated the region and would not give up their land to immigrant Jews, though they did in fact sell large amounts. In a Study Guide at the bottom of the section relating to the creation of Israel, Nash explains the Jewish connection with the land, but says that in 1948 "Jews reclaimed their ancient homeland, but in the process the Palestinians lost theirs." Of course, had they accepted partition, the Palestinians would have had a state. Moreover, most Palestinians remained in Palestine, in either the areas that became Israel or Jordan.

In A People & A Nation, Norton et al. say Israel was carved out of the British mandate without explaining how Great Britain came to control the area, what role the U.N. played or Jewish claims to the land. The authors jump to the recognition of Israel, which they explain by "America's perceived need for international allies" and Truman's "desire for Jewish American votes." While the latter justification is often cited, the former has never been raised by any scholar of the period. Paul Boyer et al., writing in The Enduring Vision: The History of the American People (DC Heath, 1990), also attribute Truman's decision to the Jewish vote, but at least acknowledge this was only part of the reason for his action. The book does not elaborate on the others.

One of the few American history books to discuss the situation prior to 1947 is David King et al's. The United States and Its People. When it comes to the UN partition decision, however, they attribute the result to sympathy for the victims of the Holocaust. They also create the misimpression that the 1948 war was between Palestinians and Jews by saying the Arab states sent troops to help the Palestinian Arabs when in fact most Palestinians fled to avoid the fighting and the Arab states attacked with the intention of driving the Jews into the sea.

Perhaps it is a rejection of the old methods of forcing students to memorize names and dates, but it was surprising to see how few of the books gave the precise dates of events. Hantula et al., for example, say in Global Insights that the Arabs invaded Israel in the spring of 1948. The exact date is important, however, because the Arabs invaded immediately after Israel's declaration of independence, demonstrating that the establishment of the state was viewed as the aggression rather than anything the new state did.

In the 1992 edition of The Human Experience-A World History, Farah and Karls give a good explanation of the partition plan and the Arab invasion of the new state, but they exaggerate Israel's military advantage, saying it was ready with a "flood of immigrants and arms." At the end of the war they say Israel had 77 percent of Palestine, 20 percent more than the U.N. gave them. Beers relates in World History--Patterns of Civilization that the war ended with Israel annexing Arab territory and increasing the size of its territory by 30 percent. In World History--Traditions and New Directions, Steams et al. say the U.N. drew up a plan for Palestine, but does not say that the General Assembly approved it. Instead, they write only that Arabs outnumbered Jews two-to-one in Palestine, omitting that Jews were a majority in the area allotted to them by the partition resolution and in Jerusalem. Though the Arabs invaded, they say, Israel ended with "most of Palestine."

It is true that in the course of defending itself against Arab aggression, Israel gained more territory than the U.N. allotted; nevertheless, it still held less than 20 percent of the land that was to have originally been the Jewish homeland because of the British severing Transjordan from Palestine. To their credit, Steams et al. and Farah and Karls point out that Jordan annexed the area that was to be the "Palestinian state," though they do not say that only two countries recognized this action.

Refugees and Revisionism
The history of the Palestinians is replete with factual errors, omissions and distortions. Most books give the same explanation for the Palestinian refugee problem, that they "fled or were expelled." No one refers to the thousands who left before the fighting began or before the war was over. Nor do they point out that the number expelled was a fraction of the total that left to avoid the war, or in response to Arab leaders' exhortations to leave. Farah and Karls, for example, say in The Human Experience--A World History that the Palestinians "decided-or were forced-to leave what had been their homeland." This comes after a discussion of the 1949 armistice, which insinuates the Palestinians fled after the war. In their 1992 edition, they adopted a more neutral position, reporting that as a result of war 700,000 Arabs became homeless. It is unclear where Farah and Karls and the other authors who use the same statistic came up with the number of refugees. The 700,000 figure is lower than the exaggerated Arab estimates, but still nearly one-third higher than that of the U.N. Mediator on Palestine.

In World History-For A Global Age, Abramowitz is the only author who alludes to the fact that 500,000 Jews fled Arab countries in what was, in effect, an exchange of populations. No mention is made of the mistreatment of Jews that provoked many to emigrate from the otherwise tolerant Islamic societies to Israel.

Also, little is said about the treatment the Palestinian refugees received from their brethren. A couple of books do point out the refugees were not welcomed by the Arab states. Schwartz and O'Connor observe in Exploring A Changing World that Arab nations have not given the Palestinians a home, but Wallbank and Schrier's Living World History is the only book to note that only Jordan gave them citizenship. The text also points out that refugee camps became bases for "violent attacks" against Israel. Hantula et al's. Global Insights claims they occupy important posts throughout the Persian Gulf, but neglect their inability to become citizens and the expulsion of tens of thousands of Palestinians after the Gulf War.

The number and condition of the refugees are distorted in every book that discusses them. Wallbank and Schrier say most refugee camps became "permanent settlements" without jobs, farms or services. Hantula et al., Stearns et al. and Beers all have nearly identical versions. According to these authors, one-third of the 3.5 million Palestinians live in exile, as many as two million confined to squalid refugee camps. These descriptions give the impression that millions of Palestinian refugees are suffering in camps, but this has not been the case for decades. According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, two-thirds of the approximately 2.2 million Palestinian refugees are not in camps. "They live and work like everyone else in the towns and villages of the Middle East," UNRWA reports. Moreover, of the five million Palestinians, nearly three-quarters now live in historic "Palestine," either as Israeli or Jordanian citizens or in the West Bank and Gaza.

Searching for Terrorists
It has become politically incorrect to refer to anyone as terrorists, so it was not surprising that most authors avoided the label. Beers notes in World History-Patterns of Civilization that Syria has been "accused of terrorism," but even this qualified charge is weakened when he misleadingly adds that Syria has also helped in hostage releases. Schwartz and O'Connor's Exploring A Changing World refers to attacks by "commandos who slip into Israel from neighboring Arab countries." Wallbank and Schrier (Living World History), Welty and Greenblatt (The Human Experience--World Regions and Cultures) and Davidson et al. (American Journey) call the PLO "guerrillas." In The Middle Fast, Peretz refers to the PLO as a "Palestinian nationalist organization," but acknowledges that Israel labels it "a 'terrorist' organization." Norton et al's. A People & A Nation says that Palestinian Arabs, many of whom had been "expelled from their homes in 1948," organized the PLO to destroy Israel. They mention attacks such as the Munich massacre, but do not label them terrorism. Moreover, the authors seem to equate PLO and Israeli actions by noting that "Israelis retaliated by assassinating PLO figures abroad." According to Stearns et al's World History--Traditions and New Directions, "guerilla groups" raided Israeli communities and hijacked airliners and "Israel retaliated by bombing Egyptian cities." The only clues as to where they came up with the notion that Israel bombed Egypt is if they somehow confused the PLO attacks with the War of Attrition.

Farah and Karls start a section in The Human Experience-A World History by saying "angry Palestinians turned to strong resistance to achieve nationhood," and that "militant refugees formed resistance groups" that merged in 1964 to form the PLO. They also write that after 1967 the PLO decided on armed struggle to "replace Israel with an independent Palestinian state for all Muslims, Jews and Christians." They mention the Munich massacre being committed by the PLO, but, like all the others make no reference to the PLO's covenant. In their newer edition, Farah and Karls use the forbidden word, but combined terrorist attacks and border raids so it is not clear who the perpetrators and victims are. At another point they say that Palestinians who protested against Israeli rule in the territories "could be arrested and see their homes bulldozed" and that the PLO fought back with hijackings and bombings when, in fact, PLO terrorism long preceded the Israeli actions to which they refer. Jordan et al. (The Americans) and Welty and Greenblatt (The Human Experience-World Regions and Cultures) also mention the PLO engaged in terrorist activities such as hijackings and the Munich massacre. The threat posed to Israel by terrorism is further diminished, however, by the failure to provide examples (beyond two references to Munich) of specific attacks.

The most dramatic exceptions to the reticence to accurately state the PLO's aims are found in Graff's America: The Glorious Republic, where the PLO is described as "a terrorist group pledged to the destruction of Israel," and in Schwartz and O'Connor's Exploring A Changing World, which has the following question in the chapter summary: "The PLO is pledged to attack and destroy: a) Egyptians, b) Israelis, c) Jordanians."

Incidentally, all the books get the origins of the PLO wrong. Wallbank and Schrier are the only ones who correctly state that the heads of the Arab states were involved. But instead of saying they created the PLO in 1964, Living World History incorrectly gives this as the date the PLO was recognized as the representatives of the Palestinian people, something that actually occurred a decade later.

Many books also came out shortly after Arafat's 1988 statements renouncing terrorism and recognizing Israel. Although the same authors should be aware of the PLO's subsequent contradictory actions, including the raid on an Israeli beach that caused the suspension of the U.S. -PLO dialogue, Arafat's words are given great importance. In American Odyssey, Nash maintains Arafat "took a step toward a solution." Welty and Greenblatt's The Human Experience--World Regions and Cultures says that he "more or less acknowledged that Israel had a 'right to exist,'" whatever that means. At least they correctly state that Arafat did not renounce military actions against Israel. Wallbank and Schrier's Living World History claims Arafat's remarks opened "the way for new negotiations for peace in the Middle East," though peace talks did not begin until almost three years later-after the PLO was forced behind the scenes. Meanwhile, Israel's arguments for distrusting Arafat are ignored.

The Heroic Intifada
The status of Palestinians in the territories is given surprisingly short-shrift. The information presented, however, is entirely one-sided. In Living World History, for example, Wallbank and Schrier mention universities being closed. Hantula et al. say in Global Insights that schools in the territories have been "subject to Israeli censorship" and those "who spoke out against the occupation risked being deported." It is fair to mention deprivations in the territories, but no one mentions the security concerns that prompt them. Schools were only closed after they ceased to be centers of learning and became instead staging grounds for violent demonstrations. All the universities are now open. Israeli "censorship" in schools has been restricted to replacing Jordanian textbooks laced with anti-Semitic references. The January 1993 deportation of more than 400 Hamas activists has reinforced the impression that expulsion is a common method of stopping protests, but it has actually been used sparingly. Moreover, just speaking out against the occupation has never been the cause for someone's expulsion. Even with the military administration, there is no shortage of Palestinians making their feelings known. In addition, if these books were to be consistent in their efforts to present issues in a balanced manner, they would discuss some improvements in living conditions in the territories since 1967.

Nash's American Odyssey acknowledges that Israel modernized the territories in the 1970's and 80's, but says the Palestinians "were forced to carry identity cards, usually got the most menial jobs and, if suspected of causing trouble, could be beaten, arrested or have their homes bulldozed into rubble." In truth, Israelis also carry identity cards. Palestinians often are employed in low-paying jobs because they are willing to take them and Israelis generally are not. They are not forced into them. Finally, Palestinians have to do more than simply be suspected of causing trouble to merit the treatment Nash describes. Demolishing homes, for example, is a punishment rarely used and then only for severe crimes. More important, unlike elsewhere in the Middle East, the Palestinians have recourse to the courts.

Some more recent texts discuss the intifada, which is always described as a reaction to Israeli actions. No reference is made in Nash (American Odyssey) or the others to the internecine warfare labeled the intrafada. Norton et al. simply refer in A People & A Nation to Israeli forces using brute force to quell "rock-throwing youths." Nash and Farah and Karls' newer edition of The Human Experience--A World History incorrectly say the intifada started when Israeli soldiers were surrounded and shot and killed a 17-year-old. Welty and Greenblatt's The Human Experience--World Regions and Cultures is the only book to give a complete and accurate explanation of how the intifada started. Nash actually devotes more space to inaccurately explaining the outbreak of the uprising than any other aspect of the conflict or U.S.-Israel relations. More disturbing than the narrative, however, is the use of a photo of Palestinian women demonstrating next to a picture of the Mandelas, creating the misimpression of a symmetry between the struggles of Palestinians and black South Africans.

The treatment of Arabs in Israel is largely ignored. One exception is Peretz, who wrote in The Middle East that they "are not integrated into the nation's social and political structure." He calls them second-class citizens. Arab citizens of Israel have suffered hardships because of their exemption from military service and inequalities in funding of Arab municipalities, but they have greater political rights than Palestinians anywhere else in the Middle East. They have political parties and Knesset representation, and are probably as integrated into Israeli society as most minorities are elsewhere.

War Erupts
The treatment of the causes and conduct of the Arab-Israeli wars in all the texts was appalling. The complexities of the conflict are usually reduced to the Palestinians wanting independence and Israel resisting. The Arabs' refusal to accept a Jewish state in their midst is softened to an unwillingness to "recognize" Israel, a subtle difference that suggests passivity rather than an active campaign to destroy Israel. Arab intransigence is never suggested as a cause of the dispute. The books generally avoid describing Arab provocations (none mention the Arab boycott), while several go so far as to blame Israel for the wars. In World History--Traditions and New Directions, for example, Stearns et al. say "Israel's quick and successful growth and modernization contributed even more to Arab-Israeli hostility."

The most consistently incomplete and inaccurate accounts are of the Suez war. Every world history text attributes the cause to Nasser's nationalization of the Suez Canal. Not one mentions the fedayeen raids or other Egyptian provocations that led Israel to join Great Britain and France in the war. The closest any come to suggesting Egypt provoked Israel is a reference to Nasser blocking the canal (but not the Straits of Tiran) to Israeli shipping. Stearns et al. assert the Arabs turned away from Western nations because they supported Israel, but they do not relate that the United States opposed the war and pressured Israel to withdraw from the territory it captured.

A People & A Nation, by Norton et al., also gets it wrong, suggesting the Suez War occurred because Secretary of State John Foster Dulles lost patience with Nasser when he declared neutrality in the Cold War. Nothing is said about Egypt's arms deal with the Soviets. As in their earlier reference to the rationale for recognizing Israel, these authors say America's position toward Israel was related to "a vocal Jewish-American lobby." Boyer et al. write in The Enduring Vision that "Israeli troops stormed into Egypt." King et al's. The United States and Its People says that Israel attacked "bases from which Arabs had been raiding Israel," but fail to mention the blockade and erroneously report that the British and French were forced to withdraw from territory they occupied while Israel was allowed to keep the Sinai.

The other American history books were an improvement. Davidson et al. (American Journey), Jordan et al. (The Americans) and DiBacco et al. (History of the United States) explain that Egypt's blockade of the Suez Canal provoked Israel. Jordan and his coauthors are the only ones to also mention Egyptian terrorism as a cause of the war. None of the texts say anything about the blockade of the Gulf of Aqaba.

Accounts of the Six-Day War are not much better. In fact, with two exceptions, the American history texts skip the conflict altogether. In A People & A Nation, Norton et al. say only that Israel used American weapons "to score victories over Egypt and Syria" and that Israel seized the West Bank and the ancient city of Jerusalem from Jordan, the Golan Heights from Syria and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt." Boyer et al's The Enduring Vision makes a similar reference to Jerusalem being seized from Jordan. Similarly, Abramowitz talks in World History-For A Global Age about Egyptian provocations in 1967, but does not say anything about Jordan or Syria. He then states that Israel took territory from all three countries, making it sound like there was no reason for its action on the Golan Heights or the West Bank. He also says that Jerusalem had been an international city, ignoring Jordanian control from 1949 on. Steams et al's. World History--Traditions and New Directions says Israel seized "Jordan's West Bank" and the "Jordanian half of Jerusalem." No one relates that Israel warned King Hussein to stay out of the fighting, and that it was his failure to do so that led to the territory he occupied being taken. Moreover, they create the false impression that Jordan has a claim to Jerusalem.

In World History-Patterns of Civilization, Beers writes that "both sides had been building up their armed forces" before the war and that during the fighting Israel seized the "Arab half of Jerusalem." In the 1990 edition of The Human Experience-A World History, Farah and Karls do not give any cause for the Six-Day War. The 1992 edition, however, does talk about Syria engaging in border clashes and wanting to eliminate Israel, the only reference any book makes to Syrian provocations. They add, however, that Nasser "aided Syria by closing the Gulf of Aqaba to Israel," creating the misperception that Egypt was more of an accomplice than the provocateur. The same section has a picture with the following caption: "Learning from Photographs. An Israeli armored vehicle patrols the Golan Heights. What other land did Israel seize in the Six-Day War?" If this is what students are being taught to learn from pictures, the thought of what they might be taking away from the evening news is truly frightening.

In The Human Experience-World Regions and Cultures, Welty and Greenblatt say the U.S. supported Israel in 1967 when, in fact, Johnson imposed an arms embargo and had warned against going to war. They are among the few authors to say anything about Soviet involvement in the conflict; however, they make it sound as if Soviet aid to Egypt and Syria was equal to that given to Israel by the U.S. before 1973. In fact, American aid was relatively small until the outbreak of the Yom Kippur War. The Soviets completely rebuilt the Arab arsenals while Israel was struggling to convince the United States to supply sophisticated aircraft.

All of the texts ignore the War of Attrition, reflecting a general tendency not to treat the engagements from 1969-70 as a war. But fighting lasted 16 months and resulted in the death of 600 Israeli soldiers and 127 civilians. Another 2,000 soldiers and 700 civilians were wounded.

One of the most glaring omissions from several books is the failure to mention that the 1973 war began when Egypt and Syria launched a surprise attack on Yom Kippur. Beers (World History-Patterns of Civilization), for example, says they just declared war. Norton et al. (A People & A Nation) write that Egypt and Syria attacked Israel on October 6. Nash (American Odyssey) refers to the war twice, one to say that an oil embargo was imposed on the United States and another to falsely report that "in 1948, 1956, 1967 and again in 1973, the Israelis fought wars with Arab forces, gaining more land with each victory." The impression given is that Israel was fighting wars for the acquisition of territory. Farah and Karls (The Human Experience-A World History claim Egypt and Syria "fought to get back land lost" in 1967, without mentioning when or how the attack occurred. In the 1992 edition, they correct this. Abramowitz (World History-For A Global Age) is one of the few to point out that other Arab states participated in the war.

Boyer et al. distort the origins of the war in The Enduring Vision. "Following a several-year-long Arab war of attrition against the Israelis, and concurrent bombing raids by Israel on its neighbors, Moscow-backed Syrian and Egyptian forces launched an all-out attack against Israel." The surprise attack did not immediately follow the war of attrition, which effectively ended in 1970, nor was it related to bombing raids by Israel. The turning point in the war is attributed to "massive U.S. shipments of highly sophisticated weaponry," but the almost equally massive Soviet shipment of sophisticated arms to the Arabs is not mentioned.

After the war, Boyer et al. assert that Nixon "shifted U.S. foreign policy from its traditional exclusive support for Israel to a more evenhanded relationship with the contending Middle Eastern nations." This is almost the exact opposite of what happened. It was only after 1973 that the U.S. began to explicitly work to give Israel a qualitative advantage over its adversaries. The text goes on to credit Henry Kissinger's shuttle diplomacy with smoothing U.S.-Arab relations, but asserts this "did not alter the root cause of Middle Eastern stability, especially the fate of the Palestinians." The notion that the plight of the Palestinians is central to the conflict is not surprising given the book's almost total neglect of inter-Arab disputes and U.S. policy toward countries like Jordan, Iraq, Libya and Saudi Arabia.

Discussing the period between 1979 and 1982, Norton et al. write in A People & A Nation: "Even ally Israel gave the United States trouble" by bombing PLO camps in Lebanon and "killing hundreds of civilians," and by annexing the Golan Heights. "Many American supporters of Israel, recognizing that the Jewish state faced hostile Arabs, nonetheless became impatient with Israel's provocative acts toward its neighbors." This is a complete distortion of the situation during those years. Israeli attacks on PLO camps did cause casualties but these were not unprovoked. Moreover, it is not clear who they are referring to when they say American supporters of Israel were impatient. On the contrary, support during those years was quite strong. The authors continue in a misleading direction when they write that in June 1982 Israeli troops "invaded civil war-torn Lebanon, cutting their way to the capital Beirut and inflicting massive damage. The beleaguered PLO and various Lebanese factions called upon Syria to contain the Israelis. Thousands of civilians died in the multifaceted conflict and a million people became refugees." Again, the authors give the impression that Israel's actions were unprovoked and disproportionate. They hedge by calling the conflict "multifaceted," but only refer to the Israeli role.

Similarly, Abramowitz's World History for A Global Age says Israel "accused" the PLO of using Lebanon as a base. Though Palestinians are sometimes mentioned as a destabilizing force, most books ignore the fact that King Hussein crushed the PLO revolt in Jordan and sparked the Palestinian exodus to Lebanon. The impression given is that the Palestinians in Lebanon all came from Israel.

The Syrian role in Lebanon is consistently whitewashed. In The Middle East, Peretz says only that Syria was authorized to intervene in the civil war. Steams et al. assert in World History- Traditions and New Directions the "Syrians feared that a Muslim victory would invite an Israeli invasion of their country." No one explains Hafez Assad's vision of Greater Syria or Syria's continued occupation of Lebanon. In the later edition of The Human Experience-A World History Farah and Karls go as far as to speak of new signs of "hope" in Lebanon in 1990 because of Syria ousting a Christian General (Michel Aoun) who stood in the way of the Arab League's peace plan.

Recent volumes also briefly discuss the Gulf War. Schwartz and O'Connor's Exploring A Changing World calls the Persian Gulf crisis "the most serious situation to date in the Middle East." They assert the war was over oil, not even referencing the Bush Administration's declared reasons. Also, no mention is made of the SCUD attack on Israel.

Israel as the Obstacle to Peace
The peace process is consistently handled simplistically, routinely putting the onus on Israel for the conflict and portraying Israelis as uncompromising. In The Middle East, for example, Peretz says that after 1967 "many Israelis believed that their country was the dominant military power in the Middle East. Because of this belief, they thought they would be able to maintain the status quo without making any concessions." This despite the fact that Israel was prepared to withdraw from much of the West Bank and, as Peretz acknowledges, later did give back the Sinai.

Considering the frequent discussion in the press of U.N. Resolution 242, it was surprising that none of the books cite it. The closest any came were Farah and Karls saying in The Human Experience-A World History that the U.N. asked Israel to withdraw, but it refused to do so until the Arabs recognize its right to exist. Elsewhere, however, they place the responsibility more clearly on the Israelis, asserting that they "have refused to negotiate until their country is recognized by the Arabs." It is untrue that Israel made this a precondition of talks; moreover, past negotiations all took place without Arab recognition. This misplaced emphasis on Arab recognition also brings to mind Abba Eban's remark: "There is certainly no other state, big or small, young or old, that would consider mere recognition of its 'right to exist' a favor, or a negotiable concession" (New York Times, November 15, 1981). More important, however, the essence of Resolution 242 is distorted by failing to make clear the linkage between territorial withdrawal and peace.

In A People & A Nation, Norton et al. note that Israel and Egypt reached an agreement in 1975 whereby peacekeepers would be moved into the Sinai. But, they say, other problems remained: "the homeless Palestinian Arabs, Israeli occupation of Jerusalem and the West Bank, Israel's insistence on building settlements in occupied lands, and Arab threats to destroy the Jewish state." It is bizarre to equate the Arab desire to destroy Israel with political disagreements over the West Bank. Moreover, the authors are revising history to make it seem as though current disputes were issues nearly 20 years ago. For example, what homeless Palestinians are they referring to? No Palestinians were displaced in the 1973 war and none from earlier conflicts lacked places to live. Israel's control of the territories was indeed an issue, but little settlement activity took place before 1977 and did not become a major issue until it was raised by President Carter.

On the subject of peace, Camp David is usually given prominence, though the facts are sometimes garbled. Schwartz and O'Connor devote one sentence in Exploring A Changing World to the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty, but do not mention Camp David. Farah and Karls give away their bias in The Human Experience-A World History by discussing the subject under the subhead, "Separate Peace." Welty and Greenblatt got their facts partially right in The Human Experience--World Regions and Cultures. They are among the few to give Begin credit for inviting Sadat to Jerusalem, but they say the invitation was to Egypt's "new leader," though Sadat had been in power for seven years. Wallbank and Schrier's Living World History teaches that the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty is known as the Camp David Accords. Actually, the accords established the framework for peace; the treaty was signed six months later. Though they and some others acknowledge that Israel returned the Sinai, no sense of the magnitude of this sacrifice is given. No one mentions, for example, that the Sinai constituted 91 percent of the territory Israel won in 1967.

Given that the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty was one of the most significant diplomatic achievements of the postwar era, the American history texts might have been expected to devote a bit more attention to the subject. Norton et al's. A People & A Nation has a paragraph on Camp David, crediting President Carter's "tenacious diplomacy" for the treaty and not even mentioning Sadat's trip to Jerusalem. In The Enduring Vision, Boyer et al. say "Carter saw an opening" when Sadat made his historic trip, but the truth was almost the opposite. Carter saw Sadat's move as jeopardizing his plans to achieve a comprehensive settlement. In The United States and Its People, King et al. at least grant Begin credit for inviting Sadat to Jerusalem, but they give the false impression that Carter's meeting with Sadat in April 1977 to discuss aid was linked to the Egyptian President's decision to go to Jerusalem in November. If there was any linkage, it was Sadat's recognition that Carter's policy would not lead to a breakthrough and that he had to act unilaterally. Nash has a truly unique interpretation of the events leading to the peace treaty, arguing in American Odyssey that Carter seized the opportunity after hearing Sadat tell Walter Cronkite that he would do whatever he could to make peace with Israel. Neither Nash nor several of the others discuss the substance of the agreement or its significance.

The peace process after Camp David receives no real attention. Norton et al. wrote in A People & A Nation that Washington continued to offer peace plans, but that "Israel refused to negotiate." In The Enduring Vision, Boyer et al. state that the Reagan Plan called for the creation of a Palestinian homeland on the West Bank, something the plan does not say. Moreover, the book doesn't mention that the Arabs joined Israel in opposing it. Welty and Greenblatt write in The Human Experience--World Regions and Cultures that, following Camp David, Palestinians looked forward to a Palestinian state. They are also the only ones to report the Shamir election proposal. In the 1992 edition of The Human Experience-A World History, Farah and Karls note that the Palestinians never had self-rule under Jordan, which annexed the West Bank, a key fact ignored by the other texts and these authors in earlier editions. Peretz's The Middle East is the only book to acknowledge that no Palestinians called for a state from 1949-67 while Jordan controlled the West Bank.

An important aspect of the pursuit of peace from 1979 until August 1993 was the Palestinian rejection of autonomy. Still, Palestinian intransigence is never mentioned or implied. Instead, the problem is reduced to the refusal of Israel to accept what is presented as the reasonable desire of Palestinians to return to their land and create "a democratic nonreligious Palestinian state." Even if the complexity of the issue could be reduced to such a simple formula, it is still grossly misleading to suggest the Palestinians would adopt such a government given the undemocratic nature of its current society and the salience of religion that is evident in the ongoing battles between Islamic groups and the PLO.

Stearns et al. stray from presenting historical facts to polemics when they assert in World History--Traditions and New Directions that the chances of Palestinians reaching their goal of an independent state diminished as Israel established settlements. The settlement issue, otherwise, is not raised in the various texts, which is probably for the best given the virtual certainty that their role, location and numbers would go unexplained.

A few books mention that security is an issue, but do not go beyond vague generalities. No analysis of the geography of Israel is presented despite the emphasis many books place on the physical description of nations. Furthermore, the debate in Israel about the territories is portrayed misleadingly. For example, in World History--Patterns of Civilization Beers gives the impression that the extreme positions on the right and left are the most prevalent: "Some want to expel all Arabs from the West Bank. Other Israelis favor compromise. Some would accept a Palestinian state west of the Jordan River under certain conditions."

Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 01, 2005, 09:43:55 AM
Conclusion
It would be nice to say that this study unearthed some high quality texts, but it would not be true. Of the 18 books, only two deserve recommendations. In world history, Welty and Greenblatt's, The Human Experience--World Regions and Cultures does the best job of covering important events with a minimum of distortion. Still, as noted throughout the study, the book has some deficiencies. Among the American history texts, Henry Graff's, America: The Glorious Republic was easily the class of the field (and ironically the oldest). This book was not flawless, but it provided an excellent presentation of the facts. The lack of references in this study to mistakes is evidence of the quality of scholarship.

One reason the texts are so bad is that they are not adequately reviewed by experts in the field. The authors also appear to overlook basic sources and most lack footnotes or bibliographies. The couple of books that did have references only seemed to prove the inadequacy of the authors' research. In Global Insights, for example, Hantula et al. cite obscure or marginal sources such as a book on the Palestinians by Frank Epp published in 1976. Peretz, a legitimate Middle East expert, inexplicably uses as sources for The Middle East, Uri Avnery, Amos Elon, Amos Oz and David Shipler. The only serious historian listed in his bibliography on modem Israel is Howard Sachar.

Publishers may argue that later editions of books correct earlier errors, but none of the revised works reviewed here eliminated all the problems. In fact, some newer texts were made worse. In addition, many schools can afford to replace texts only infrequently, so many students will continue to be educated with misinformation from the earlier volumes.

What Can Be Done?
The only way the quality of education can be improved is if parents take an active role in their children's schooling. Students are not likely to recognize problems with their textbooks, it's up to their parents. If a book appears problematic, the relevant passages can be forwarded to the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise for analysis. If they are inaccurate or biased, we would recommend that a protest be made to the teacher, the school and the school board, outlining the problem and expressing an interest in seeing that a more suitable book be used.

Besides alerting local school officials, protests should also be made to the publishers. The people who are responsible for putting out textbooks are not anti-Semites out to corrupt the nation's youth. Often they are harried editors who depend on reviewers to catch errors. The best publishers do not want mistakes in their books and will take steps to correct them. Sometimes, they may be reluctant. In the case of The Enduring Vision, I wrote an article on its deficiencies in the Near East Report, which provoked many angry letters to DC Heath. The publisher's initial response was defensive, claiming there "were a few factual slips" but that passages were quoted out of context. Reputable experts were subsequently brought in, however, to correct the errors and to provide more background explanations of Middle East events. In the end, the publisher produced a better book and students had a more useful educational tool.


Bibliography
Abramowitz, Jack, World History--For A Global Age (1985, Globe Book, 190 Sylvan Ave., Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632).

Beers, Benton, World History--Patterns of Civilization (1990, Prentice Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632).

Boyer, Paul et al., The Enduring Vision, (1990, DC Heath, 125 Spring St., Lexington, MA 02173).

Davidson, James West, Mark Lytle and Michael Staff, American Journey, (1992, Prentice Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632).

DiBacco, Thomas, Lorna Mason and Christian Appy, History of the United States, (1991, Houghton Mifflin Co., One Beacon St., Boston, MA 02108).

Farah, Mounir, and Andrea Karls, The Human Experience--A World History, (1990, 1992, Merrill Publishing, 445 Hutchinson Ave., Columbus, OH 43235),

Graff, Henry, America: The Glorious Republic, (1988, Houghton Mifflin Co., One Beacon St., Boston, MA 02108).

Hantula, James, et al., Global Insights-People And Culture, (198 8, 1994, Glencoe Division, Macmillan/McGraw Hill, 936 Eastwind Dr., Westerville, OH 43081).

Jordan, Winthrop, Miriam Greenblatt and John Bowes, The Americans, (1992, McDougal, Littell and Co., Box 1667, Evanston, IL 60204).

King, David, Norman McRae, Jaye Zola, The United States and Its People, (1993, Addison Wesley, Rte. 128, Reading, MA 01867).

Nash, Gary, American Odyssey, (1991, Glencoe Division, Macmillan/McGraw Hill, 936 Eastwind Dr., Westerville, OH 43081).

Norton, Mary Beth, et al., A People & A Nation, (1990, Houghton Mifflin Co., One Beacon St., Boston, MA 02108).

Peretz, Don, The Middle East (1990, Houghton Mifflin Co., One Beacon St., Boston, MA 02108).

Reich, Jerome, Mark Krug and Edward Biller, World History, (1990, Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1627 Woodland Ave., Austin, TX 78741).

Schwartz, Melvin and John O'Connor, Exploring A Changing World (1993, Globe Book, 190 Sylvan Ave., Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632).

Steams, Peter, Donald Schwartz and Barry Beyer, World History-Traditions and New Directions (1989, Addison-Wesley, Rte. 128, Reading, MA 01867).

Wallbank, T. Walter and Arnold Schrier, Living World History (1990, Scott, Foresman and Co., 1900 E Lake Ave., Glenview, IL 60025).

Welty, Paul Thomas and Miriam Greenblatt, The Human Experience--World Regions and Cultures, (1992, Glencoe Division, Macmillan/McGraw Hill, 936 Eastwind Dr., Westerville, OH 43081).

Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 01, 2005, 09:46:39 AM
Add disinformation to propaganda and you've got rooted BIAS.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: King Tech Quadafi on November 01, 2005, 11:01:41 AM
^ My man, you are hopelessly brainwashed to the point where conversation cannot be carried out wit you

You could post another 10 page essay and it wont do no good. Anyone here with any semblance of intelligence finished laughin at you on page 3 of the thread
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 01, 2005, 11:35:45 AM
^ My man, you are hopelessly brainwashed to the point where conversation cannot be carried out wit you

You could post another 10 page essay and it wont do no good. Anyone here with any semblance of intelligence finished laughin at you on page 3 of the thread


lol....These few articles are the first articles I've ever pasted regarding this conflict and unlike the hundreds of articles you guys bring each time these reflect true facts and NO OMISSION, I bet you haven't even read this, otherwise ,assuming that you are indeed armed with this semblance of intelligence that you've mentioned, you would at least have commented on the statement it is making, again you simply choose to disregard whatever does not fit your version of the truth, you guys can go around bullshiting for as long as you like but one thing you can not say: you can't say I haven't commented on your statements and references- however I CAN say this about you guys. lol And I'm the one hopelessly brainwashed- If your belief that this is the real problem in this debate helps you guys sleep better at night after having advocated something you do not fully acknowlede then so be it.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Don Rizzle on November 01, 2005, 11:47:34 AM
i can't be arsed to read all that, but if you want my opinion on the wall. build it if you want too, but it should be within israeli territory not occupied land demolish all jewiish homes you want and give out the necessary compensation and relocate your people, doing it on palestinian land only adds fuel to the fire and proves israel doesn't act with rightious intension....
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 01, 2005, 12:26:12 PM
i can't be arsed to read all that

Too bad that you have time to read articles with omitted facts and to post them but you don't have time to read the honest truth only because it's complex and because it shatters all of the misconceptions you've grown used to.

Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on November 01, 2005, 01:53:31 PM
Where did I mention that I knew their intent? LOL I actually stated the exact opposite by stating that I don't know their intent, only that it's happening. I'm stating facts, not opinions. You guys are the ones bringing your own opinions into this. However, there is no way to justify the demolishing of homes... especially not when it's "to make room for a wall"


You start by saying you don't know their intentions and end the paragraph by stating what you believe their intentions are...Stop changing what you're saying, your main point is obviously to imply that the Israeli government has evil intentions, which you can't prove...Now lets see how many more circles we can go in...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on November 01, 2005, 03:11:04 PM
Where did I mention that I knew their intent? LOL I actually stated the exact opposite by stating that I don't know their intent, only that it's happening. I'm stating facts, not opinions. You guys are the ones bringing your own opinions into this. However, there is no way to justify the demolishing of homes... especially not when it's "to make room for a wall"


You start by saying you don't know their intentions and end the paragraph by stating what you believe their intentions are...Stop changing what you're saying, your main point is obviously to imply that the Israeli government has evil intentions, which you can't prove...Now lets see how many more circles we can go in...

After you assumed you were psychic the first time, I specifically pointed out this wasn't the case... yet since you have no argument and can't admit your mistake... you feel the need to again assume to know what I was implying...

I ended the paragraph by stating that the government demolished homes to make room for the wall... THAT'S FACT... don't get it twisted... I never stated to know their intentions... all I'm stating is what they do... not why they do it... except for the case of the homes being fucked up because they were in the way of the wall being built... I can't believe you can't understand something this simple... it's almost as if you guys run away from the truth
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on November 01, 2005, 03:34:04 PM
Ok let me break it down really slow...

"I never knew it was the government bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions."

These actions = plural, which means you're referring to the bulldozing and the killing of innocent people

I stated that it's the government bulldozing homes. FACT. I'm right. You're wrong. It's over.

Then once you realize you fucked up, you say: "Well you don't know their intention" , "The only ones they purposely bulldoze are terrorist homes", etc

1. I never stated to know their intention. But what the fuck does it matter? Intention distinguishes 1st degree murder in court, but it's still murder if there is no proof of intention... do you get it? I'm trying to make things as simple as possible for you. The homes are being demolished. Fact.

2. As for "only bulldozing terrorist homes".. the government has admitted to bulldozing homes to make room for the wall.

Anyways, I'm arguing with people who claim it's the soldiers' choice to bulldoze homes and not the government's... and that Zionism hasn't affected Palestinians.... LOLLLL...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on November 01, 2005, 03:39:45 PM
i can't be arsed to read all that

Too bad that you have time to read articles with omitted facts and to post them but you don't have time to read the honest truth only because it's complex and because it shatters all of the misconceptions you've grown used to.

Yes because if you believe it, then it must be the honest truth.... like "Palestinians have in no way been victims of Zionism"... LOL...
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 02, 2005, 09:29:08 AM
i can't be arsed to read all that

Too bad that you have time to read articles with omitted facts and to post them but you don't have time to read the honest truth only because it's complex and because it shatters all of the misconceptions you've grown used to.

Yes because if you believe it, then it must be the honest truth.... like "Palestinians have in no way been victims of Zionism"... LOL...

See this has nothing to do with what I think because all I did was pasting it for you to read it, you are the one assuming. Read it and see for yourself whether it is the truth- this is not like your bullshit articles man, you can actually see for yourself - THESE ARE FACTS.

P.S Saying that the Palestinian leadership played only a secondary role in harming the Paletinian people is laughable. The only reason Israel ever had for retaliation was because the Palestinian "leadership" refused to uproot terrorism within its authority and jurisdiction, how come you don't get this?
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on November 02, 2005, 09:53:00 AM
i can't be arsed to read all that

Too bad that you have time to read articles with omitted facts and to post them but you don't have time to read the honest truth only because it's complex and because it shatters all of the misconceptions you've grown used to.

Yes because if you believe it, then it must be the honest truth.... like "Palestinians have in no way been victims of Zionism"... LOL...

See this has nothing to do with what I think because all I did was pasting it for you to read it, you are the one assuming. Read it and see for yourself whether it is the truth- this is not like your bullshit articles man, you can actually see for yourself - THESE ARE FACTS.

P.S Saying that The Palestinian leadership played only a secondary role in harming the Paletinian people is laughable. The only reason Israel had for retaliating was because they refused to uproot terrorism with in their authority, how come you don't get this?

I said "if you believe it"... that means you accepting it as the truth... which you obviously do, so why do you say "this has nothing to do with what I think".... I'm assuming that you accept it as the truth? LOLLL yeah... nice try, dumbfuck... just because you make assumptions about me, doesn't mean I have the need to make them about you... another case of you having no response and resorting to non-sense.

Yes, you accept those as facts... and I consider "my bullshit articles" (whatever you're referring to) as facts...

You're talking about the present time... I'm talking about the past... what about Israeli terrorism in the mid 20th century? Again, it seems like you don't know what the argument at hand is... so you just choose one and run with it.. and away from the truth at the same time.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on November 02, 2005, 11:48:01 AM
Where did I mention that I knew their intent? LOL I actually stated the exact opposite by stating that I don't know their intent, only that it's happening. I'm stating facts, not opinions. You guys are the ones bringing your own opinions into this. However, there is no way to justify the demolishing of homes... especially not when it's "to make room for a wall"


You start by saying you don't know their intentions and end the paragraph by stating what you believe their intentions are...Stop changing what you're saying, your main point is obviously to imply that the Israeli government has evil intentions, which you can't prove...Now lets see how many more circles we can go in...

After you assumed you were psychic the first time, I specifically pointed out this wasn't the case... yet since you have no argument and can't admit your mistake... you feel the need to again assume to know what I was implying...

I ended the paragraph by stating that the government demolished homes to make room for the wall... THAT'S FACT... don't get it twisted... I never stated to know their intentions... all I'm stating is what they do... not why they do it... except for the case of the homes being fucked up because they were in the way of the wall being built... I can't believe you can't understand something this simple... it's almost as if you guys run away from the truth


You're telling me you haven't speculated on why they do what they do? Come on man, who you tryna fool, me or yourself? Read this thread front to back, it's full of speculations...The point is that the motive plays a huge part in all this, and you don't know the motive. You can't prove the motive. You can speculate, but there's no way to win with speculations. I can't believe you can't understand something this simple.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on November 02, 2005, 11:50:33 AM
Anyways, I'm arguing with people who claim it's the soldiers' choice to bulldoze homes and not the government's... and that Zionism hasn't affected Palestinians.... LOLLLL...


You're just making shit up, everything you say has no value, because it's based on lies. When have I said it's the soldies choice to bulldoze homes? I said if innocent people were getting harmed, it was due to the soldiers error, not the government...It's not my fault you have a hard time understanding.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 02, 2005, 02:02:05 PM
i can't be arsed to read all that

Too bad that you have time to read articles with omitted facts and to post them but you don't have time to read the honest truth only because it's complex and because it shatters all of the misconceptions you've grown used to.

Yes because if you believe it, then it must be the honest truth.... like "Palestinians have in no way been victims of Zionism"... LOL...

See this has nothing to do with what I think because all I did was pasting it for you to read it, you are the one assuming. Read it and see for yourself whether it is the truth- this is not like your bullshit articles man, you can actually see for yourself - THESE ARE FACTS.

P.S Saying that The Palestinian leadership played only a secondary role in harming the Paletinian people is laughable. The only reason Israel had for retaliating was because they refused to uproot terrorism with in their authority, how come you don't get this?

I said "if you believe it"... that means you accepting it as the truth... which you obviously do, so why do you say "this has nothing to do with what I think".... I'm assuming that you accept it as the truth? LOLLL yeah... nice try, dumbfuck... just because you make assumptions about me, doesn't mean I have the need to make them about you... another case of you having no response and resorting to non-sense.

Yes, you accept those as facts... and I consider "my bullshit articles" (whatever you're referring to) as facts...

You're talking about the present time... I'm talking about the past... what about Israeli terrorism in the mid 20th century? Again, it seems like you don't know what the argument at hand is... so you just choose one and run with it.. and away from the truth at the same time.


LMAO man you're so damn funny....I don't have to believe something that is factual, obviously you haven't even read it(- cross reference it with the bibliography if you want), I'm not arguing on whether it is the truth- IT SIMPLY IS (lol..just like the civil war in the U.S)... you're coming up with such pathetic bullshit...at least read it before bullshiting about what's true and what's not.

And this is the problem that you CONSIDER your shit to be factual meaning that you view it as such- In your opinion those are facts something that means YOU'RE THE ONE DEALING WITH OPINIONS after having said you're only dealing with pure facts....see, I don't consider, I know. If you read it or do some in-depth research YOU'D KNOW TOO- it comes to clearify historical errors you can find in many books you may have been taught upon or taught by people influenced by those books.

And about your half assed references to Jewish underground groups - it's obvious you don't even know what you're talking about, you're just mentioning shit so it will seem like you have something to say, these people rose after the Brits started backing down from the Balfour Declaration which was suppose to be their primary goal ,yet you choose to ignore the fact The Arab States declined the "partition plan" when the Palestinians could have most of the land (as if land was/is even the issue here.... you're so naive), while planing to eliminate the state of Israel and also as a result created the refugee problem.Your entire argument is based on the fact Israel is occupying land right? If the "Partition Plan" was to be accepted by the Arab Higher Committee back then would we be having this discussion right now???-THEY PLANED TO ELIMINATE ISRAEL, THEY DID NOT WANT TO CREATE A PALESTINIAN STATE---these are facts my friend. Who is to blame when the Jews accepted the "Patition Plan" despite being allocated with a tiny part of the land and the Palestinians chose to flee under the attack threats of the Arab States. How can you ignore all this, GO BACK TO THE PREVIOUS PAGE AND READ THE HISTORICAL ORDER OF EVENTS.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on November 03, 2005, 03:30:47 AM
"I don't have to believe something that is factual"
If this is your thesis statement, then you have 7 pages of posts to back this up with, and now I know why we're not getting anywhere :)

"I'm not arguing whether it's the truth.. it simply is"
Wow, I wonder why I didn't think of that one. "just like the civil war in the U.S."
PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN AND ARE VICTIMS OF ZIONISM.... I'm not arguing whether it's truth... IT SIMPLY IS... just like the U.S. dropping bombs on Japan.

When I stated that: "Yes, you accept those as facts... and I consider "my bullshit articles" (whatever you're referring to) as facts... "  it was meant as sarcasm, which is why I used the word bullshit... I was simply showing you what you sound like... and now you agree that this is expressing one's own opinion, and not facts... so I have made my point, and your dumbass has proven it.

edit: my sig says it all  :)
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on November 03, 2005, 03:44:18 AM
Anyways, I'm arguing with people who claim it's the soldiers' choice to bulldoze homes and not the government's... and that Zionism hasn't affected Palestinians.... LOLLLL...


You're just making shit up, everything you say has no value, because it's based on lies. When have I said it's the soldies choice to bulldoze homes? I said if innocent people were getting harmed, it was due to the soldiers error, not the government...It's not my fault you have a hard time understanding.

I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions (PLURAL... BULLDOZING HOMES AND KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE... GET IT?). Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

Don't take the I Geezy route and make false accusations because you've been proven wrong.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 03, 2005, 07:41:00 AM
"I don't have to believe something that is factual"
If this is your thesis statement, then you have 7 pages of posts to back this up with, and now I know why we're not getting anywhere :)

"I'm not arguing whether it's the truth.. it simply is"
Wow, I wonder why I didn't think of that one. "just like the civil war in the U.S."
PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN AND ARE VICTIMS OF ZIONISM.... I'm not arguing whether it's truth... IT SIMPLY IS... just like the U.S. dropping bombs on Japan.

When I stated that: "Yes, you accept those as facts... and I consider "my bullshit articles" (whatever you're referring to) as facts... "  it was meant as sarcasm, which is why I used the word bullshit... I was simply showing you what you sound like... and now you agree that this is expressing one's own opinion, and not facts... so I have made my point, and your dumbass has proven it.

edit: my sig says it all  :)


LOL It's like saying " THE SKIES ARE PINK"....You have to distinguish Historical Facts from interpretations, you're trying to pass your interpretations AS THE TRUTH and I'm  pointing out the historical facts which you choose to ignore in your statements. What is factual however is that Palestinians for years now have been victims of their self-proclaimed leaders and freedom fighters and you my friend are trying to blur the discussion with your kiddy shit- THIS IS PROVEN- no denying this. You keep saying that "well yes they may have been hurt by their leadership but Israel is at greater fault..." not realising that the demeanor of their leadership and it's accomplices holds as its agenda to kill civilians on both sides, they are the ones provoking Israeli retaliation-IF THE PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP FOUGHT TERRORISM on its own Israel would never have to preform foiling operations on Palestinian territory but since their leadership is in support of terrorism Israel has no other choice than to retaliate AND THEY EXPECT ISRAEL TO STRIKE since these terrorists live within the peaceful population and even while trying to keep these strikes focused there is no way to avoid innocent deaths (And they know it and YOU know it) completely, THE ONLY WAY TO AVOID THESE DEPLORABLE VICTIMS ON BOTH SIDES is for the Palestinian leadership to start fighting terrorism, something IT IS NOT WILLING TO DO....Do you realise that they wouldn't be building this stupid wall we both oppose if the Palestinian Leadership was willing to uproot terrorism within itself???-  According to the statistics it helped reducing terrorist acts drastically, what would you do if you were a Defence Minister of a terrorism stricken country after confronting such figures when it isn't even fully built yet, can you honestly blame them considering the lives at risk?- You seem to condemn this wall more than you condemn terrorist acts and what a wierd way condemning such acts you have when you don't even fully acknowledge their repercussions- They don't only kill Israelis they also trigger the deaths of peacful poor Palestinians who DO NOT DESERVE TO DIE and the leadership, instead of fighting Palestinian terrorism, condones it and waits for Israel to retaliate so it could later receive more indetification and compassion from this Propaganda Drenched World that bases its views upon feelings instead of exploring the causes. I have Palestinian(Israeli Arabs) friends in college and they also view the Palestinian leadership as the primary obstacle on the way to peace and since they have relatives/in laws in the autonomy they say this is a very widespread view among the Palestinian population although they WANT Israel to be more compromising since the leadership does not reflect the consensus (so it is upon Israel to protect Palestinian civilians as well according to them even though they aren't Israeli citizens as a country that upholds democracy) in the autonomy but they SEE THE TRUE CAUSES to the problem and I'm wondering what drives you in this discussion, do you simply want to be right ? "win an argument"? Come on, this is serious business, A VERY COMPLEX BUSINESS, you need to look beyond the propaganda you've been fed and beyond the disinformation....Study this and you'll find out many interesting details....The articles I brought weren't to prove you wrong,I can't correct someone who had been fed unadulterated propaganda along with disinformation for so long , I brought them so you could see for yourself!- There's nothing argumentative or polemic about them, there's nothing anti-Palestinian or pro-Israeli- only FACTS!

P.S

INFO:

Black September-
The name given to the armed conflict in September 1970 that occurred after Palestinians living in Jordan threatened the regime and provoked King Hussein to attack the PLO. The PLO was routed and thousands of Palestinians fled to Lebanon. Later a terrorist faction of the PLO took the name Black September.

YOU DON'T PLAY THE GAMES THAT ARE NOWADAYS PLAYED WITH ISRAEL WITH NON-DEMOCRATIC REGIMES....I wonder if there's a UN resolution? :)


West Bank-
Territory west of the Jordan River that Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Long known as Judea and Samaria, this 2263-square mile territory is home to a Palestinian population of more than one million, as well as about 240,000 Jewish residents.

Now tell me where was their self-determination agenda when they belonged to Jordan?Was Jordan ever chraged with occupation by the "International Law", or by its representatives on this board, you guys? How exactly such figures of Jewish population would threaten such an agenda(after the west bank had been captured by Israel)? 20% of our population is Palestinian and we are an established democracy....IF THEY WERE TO CREATE A DEMOCRATIC STATE WOULD THE PALESTINIAN MAJORITY be jeopardised considering these figures and the fact the Palestinian natural increase is much-much higher?


Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on November 03, 2005, 12:42:53 PM
Anyways, I'm arguing with people who claim it's the soldiers' choice to bulldoze homes and not the government's... and that Zionism hasn't affected Palestinians.... LOLLLL...


You're just making shit up, everything you say has no value, because it's based on lies. When have I said it's the soldies choice to bulldoze homes? I said if innocent people were getting harmed, it was due to the soldiers error, not the government...It's not my fault you have a hard time understanding.

I never knew it was the "government" bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, I thought it was the Israeli soldiers performing these actions (PLURAL... BULLDOZING HOMES AND KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE... GET IT?). Oh wait, it was..."Government" does not approve the killings of innocent people, I Geezy has been saying that...

Don't take the I Geezy route and make false accusations because you've been proven wrong.

It's too bad you have a tough time getting what I'm saying. If I didn't know you better, I'd think you were one of the typical WCC members who can't comprehend too much. I said bulldozing homes and killing innocent people, meaning the wrong homes were being bulldozed by the Israeli soldiers, which caused innocent people to die. Do you get it yet?
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J @ M @ L on November 03, 2005, 09:28:28 PM
Wrong homes? LOL.. what wrong homes?
When it comes to bulldozing homes, they're all the WRONG homes.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 04, 2005, 03:19:40 AM
Jamal! I want to show you now what you've been subjected to(you and every other propaganda victim):

(http://www.iacnet.org/gateway/media/arafatchildstone3.jpg)

The picture that moved hearts: This picture was taken near the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, on Friday, April 6, 2001, by Evelyn Hockstein, a Reuters photographer. A Palestinian child was caught by Israeli policemen, and, in his fear - he wet his pants. Undoubtedly, this picture is very moving, and everyone can share the pain and panic of the child, that led to such an embarrassing moment.

The Palestinians, who truly understand the power of the image, spread this picture worldwide, through the media and e-mails, but - they did not explain the photo's background. A few minutes before the above picture was taken, another Reuters photographer, Natalie Behring, had taken the following picture -- which was not as widely distributed (please notice the child in the center of the picture):


(http://www.iacnet.org/gateway/media/arafatchildstone2.jpg)


On April 13th 2001 the head of the Palestinian Authority, Yasser Arafat, abuses the same child and the truth by inviting the boy to his bureau in Ramallah and gives him words of encouragement for the above acts of violence (Aliam newspaper, April 14th 2001). They pose commonly displaying the picture with the wet pants ...


(http://www.iacnet.org/gateway/media/arafatchildstone.jpg)

On April 13th 2001 the head of the Palestinian Authority, Yasser Arafat, abuses the same child and the truth by inviting the boy to his bureau in Ramallah and gives him words of encouragement for the above acts of violence (Aliam newspaper, April 14th 2001). They pose commonly displaying the picture with the wet pants ...



(http://www.iacnet.org/gateway/media/piss.jpg)


The Egypt State Information Service, Aug 5, 2003) is abusing the child and the truth on its "Photo Album" of "Scenes Disturb World conscience" - the boy is this time a "terrified Palestinian girl".


more:

(http://www.iacnet.org/gateway/media/tuvia.gif)


The Photo that Started it All (Honest Reporting, May 2002/updated by Middle East Info Dec 9, 2003): On the day the Intifada broke out, Tuvia Grossman was riding a taxi to visit the Western Wall. He was unwittingly thrust into the international limelight -- and nearly killed in the process.

On September 30, 2000, The New York Times, Associated Press and other major media outlets published a photo of a young man -- bloodied and battered -- crouching beneath a club-wielding Israeli policeman. The caption identified him as a Palestinian victim of the recent riots -- with the clear implication that the Israeli soldier is the one who beat him.

The victim's true identity was revealed when Dr. Aaron Grossman of Chicago sent the following letter to the Times:

Regarding your picture on page A5 of the Israeli soldier and the Palestinian on the Temple Mount -- that Palestinian is actually my son, Tuvia Grossman, a Jewish student from Chicago. He, and two of his friends, were pulled from their taxicab while traveling in Jerusalem, by a mob of Palestinian Arabs, and were severely beaten and stabbed.

That picture could not have been taken on the Temple Mount because there are no gas stations on the Temple Mount and certainly none with Hebrew lettering, like the one clearly seen behind the Israeli soldier attempting to protect my son from the mob.

In response, the New York Times published a half-hearted correction, which identified Tuvia Grossman as "an American student in Israel" -- not as a Jew who was beaten by Arabs. The "correction" also noted that "Mr. Grossman was wounded" in "Jerusalem's Old City" -- although the beating actually occurred in the Arab neighborhood of Wadi al Joz, not in the Old City.

In response to public outrage at the original error and the inadequate correction, The New York Times reprinted Tuvia Grossman's picture -- this time with the proper caption -- along with a full article detailing his near-lynching at the hands of Palestinians rioters.


The photo of a bloodied Tuvia Grossman became a symbol in the struggle to ensure that Israel receives the fair media coverage that every nation deserves.

In April 2002, a District Court in Paris ordered the French daily newspaper "Liberation" and the Associated Press to pay damages to Grossman in the amount of 4,500 Euro.

The Court condemned the Associated Press for "mispresenting [Grossman] as a member of the Palestinian community," while the court censured "Liberation" for "publishing the litigious picture with a comment edited the same faulty way, giving the picture a meaning and a scope it could not have."


===== ARAB ABUSE =====

Even more remarkable is that Arab groups have adopted Grossman's photo to use in their own propaganda campaigns, cynically using a bloodied Jew as a symbol of the Palestinian struggle.

(http://www.iacnet.org/gateway/media/tuviaegypt.gif)

An official Egyptian government website (Egypt State Information Service) is using the Grossman photo on its "Photo Gallery" of "Scenes Disturb World conscience".


The Palestinian Information Center, www.islam.net incorporated Grossman's photo onto its homepage banner.  The graphic was removed from the site, but is reprinted here:

(http://www.iacnet.org/gateway/media/palislamjihad.jpg)


Additionally, some Arab groups have called for a boycott of Coca-Cola, for doing business with Israel, and have circulated a series of posters to state their case. One poster shows Grossman's bleeding face juxtaposed with the Coca-Cola logo, and the tag line: "By supporting American products, you're supporting Israel."

(http://www.iacnet.org/gateway/media/coke.jpg)



Snopes.com reports that, ironically, since Ramallah is home to a Coca-Cola bottling facility that employs about 400 local residents (and indirectly creates employment for hundreds more), and Coca-Cola industries throughout the Middle East are operated as local businesses, any boycott of Coca-Cola in Middle Eastern countries is likely to cause more monetary harm to Arabs and Palestinians than it is to Americans or Israelis.

Snopes.com notes another irony: Pepsi is also on the Arab boycott list, with claims that the name "Pepsi" is an acronym for 'Pay Every Penny to Save Israel' or 'Pay Every Penny to the State of Israel.' As the Associated Press once noted, "Calling Pepsi a 'Jewish product' is ironic, given that Pepsi was one of many multinationals that wouldn't do business in Israel during the 40-year Arab commercial boycott of the Jewish state."

And of course the biggest irony of all is that the image chosen in the poster to represent Palestinian suffering was none other than Tuvia Grossman who nearly beaten to death by a Palestinian mob.





PALESTINIAN WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN THE THROES OF ISLAMIKAZE TERRORISM

Raphael Israeli

Policy Paper No. 139, 2002

Apologia
Even prior to September 11, and certainly much more so thereafter, Muslim clerics such as radical Sheikh Qaradhawi, the Sheikh of Al-Azhar Muhammad Tantawi, and Sheikh `Akrama Sabri, the hand-picked Mufti of the Palestinian Authority, and many others who took up residence in the West, such as Sheikhs al-Bakri and al-Masri who settled in London, pronounced themselves in favor of the Islamikaze killings for the sake of Islam, especially against Israelis. Tantawi is perhaps the most duplicitous among them, for unlike others, who have been either clearly for (and this is the majority of those who articulated their thinking) or emphatically against, Tantawi has shown both by first attending the Alexandria Interfaith Conference in early 2002, where those acts of terror were denounced, but then his position constantly eroded. He came first to justify the Wafa Idris act of terror; the first perpetrated by a Palestinian woman, and then accepted in fact the indiscriminate attacks against civilians as legal. His position is particularly sensitive because while he responds to the Egyptian establishment and has to toe the official anti-terrorist line espoused by his government which appointed him, he is also in a responsible and prestigious enough location to heed the popular resentment of the masses against the US and Israel.

The involvement of women, first as victims of terror and then as its progenitors, was brought up by Syrian-born Sheikh `Umar al-Bakri, who took refuge in London and advocated at some point that “all homosexuals there ought to throw themselves down from the Big Ben,” called the British MPs “monkeys”, and vowed that the flag of Islam would “fly high on 10 Downing Street and at the Elysee”. He justified and defended the September 11 New York and Washington horrors, which for him came as a “compensation for the atrocities the US had committed against Islam”, and exhorted Muslims to unite and fight, sacrifice themselves and their wealth in order to gain access to Paradise and to make the difference between “truth and falsehood, belief and heresy, oppressors and oppressed, the alliance of Satan against the Alliance of Allah”. After the American attack against Afghanistan was launched, he issued a fatwa against Pakistani President Musharraf and other Muslim leaders who let their territory be used by Americans against a fellow Muslim state. In that verdict, for what it is worth, he raised, inter alia, many aspects of the status of women in Islam and in general, in the context of what we call terrorism and he insists on dubbing jihad. For him, the Muslims who collaborated with the US were murtaddun (apostates), if “at all they were Muslims to start with”, and since they are involved in the war against Muslims, the sentence of murtadd harbi (an apostate who should be fought) applies to them, to wit:

His life is free prey [it is permissible to kill him],
 

His marriage becomes invalid, as does his guardianship of his children and relatives,
 

His property is free prey and he will not be able to bequeath it,
 

He cannot be buried in a Muslim cemetery,
 

He must be treated with animosity and hatred...,
 

There is no difference between a man and a woman... It is permissible to shed the blood of a woman who is a heretic (harbiyya), even if her fighting is limited to singing... Thus acted the Prophet against the fighting women of the Qureish tribe. He permitted their blood to be spilled and even ordered them killed, although he generally prohibited killing women.

This verdict, which allowed the killing of Muslim women under certain circumstances, appeared under the emblem of “The Shari`ah Court of the United Kingdom”, and was signed jointly by al-Bakri himself, under his title of “Shari`ah Court Judge in London”, and Muhammad al-Musa`ari, the Secretary General of the Committee for Protection of Legitimate Rights in Saudi Arabia, which lends to it authority and respectability. Its English version, however, was slightly different and signed by “Muslim Jurists from Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, the Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan and the United Kingdom”, with the names of the original two signatories, al-Bakri and al-Musa`ari, appearing at the bottom, with their phone numbers for further inquiries. In this version, the Qur`anic verse was added which threatened that the punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and strive to make mischief in the land, is only this – that they should be murdered or crucified, or their hands and feet should be cut off on opposing sides, or they should be imprisoned.

And the section about the women of Qureish who were killed by the Prophet, was replaced by a paragraph that reads:

Therefore we ask Muslims with the capability, especially the armies of Muslim countries, to move quickly and to capture those apostates and criminals involved in these crimes, especially the ruler of Pakistan, King Fahd of Saudi Arabia and Rabbani of Afghanistan.

The exposure of women to harrowing physical mutilation, on authority of the precedent set by the Prophet, though it was concealed in the English version, where women were omitted from those horrors, together with the determination to dissolve marriages of “apostate” men, naturally had an impact on the developing debate on the active participation of Muslim women (and by extension also children), in the Islamikaze attacks as actors, or on suffering the consequences thereof as passive spectators. For once the taboo was lifted on involving women (and children) in the course of Muslim violence during this brand of jihad, or in the hardships that resulted, no obstacles could be envisaged any longer for exempting them from taking part in that struggle. Here, we shall focus on Palestinian women and children, because their people, who have been engaged in a murderous battle against Israel, have become the chief model of Islamikaze in the Muslim world. The Palestinians have emerged in effect, not only as the most active agents in the implementation of the idea, but have also widened the circle of its membership beyond the few self-sacrificing radicals, into a legitimate national form of struggle in which women and children have taken the initiative, or were led, to partake. Unlike al-Bakri and al-Masri’s fantasies where they articulate their wishful thinking to confront the world, bring down the West, kindle a world Islamic revolution and subvert their Western countries of exile from within, Palestinian clerics are unified by the theme of what they perceive as a concrete, daily and all-pervasive national struggle to which they are pushed to provide theological responses. And once they sanctified Islamikaze as a legitimate form of struggle, indeed encouraged it, they could not exclude women and children from it, nor refute them when they pressed for participation. Other Muslim clerics were also dragged into the debate, but let us first focus on the Palestinian clerics’ stated positions on Islamikaze, which by necessity generated the inclusion, first of individuals who did not belong to the Islamists of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but were members of the avowedly “secular” Fatah and al-Aqsa Brigades, followed by women and then children, in those horrendous acts of terror.










Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 04, 2005, 03:25:32 AM
Follow up(to the above^, another example):


(http://www.iacnet.org/league/saudi/dresslebsaudi.jpg)

"Lebanese model Nathaly Fadlallah models the 'Dress of Revolution,' designed by Saudi haute couture designer Yehya al-Bashri. The dress was part of a collection featured at an Arab fashion festival in Beirut on September 17, 2002 to demonstrate solidarity with the Palestinian uprising against Israel."

The dress is covered with faux bloodstains from the waist to the knees, and below the knees it shows an Israeli tank against a background of burning buildings.

Needless to say, in Saudi Arabia, the home of the designer, the same woman would be imprisoned as a "prostitute" for daring to dress like that.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 04, 2005, 03:38:14 AM
And even more to the point:

Delegitimization and Antisemitism
t Is anti-Zionism different from antisemitism?


Israel, as a democracy, is receptive to fair and legitimate criticism. However, all too often Israel is singled out and held up to standards not applied to any other state. Although valid criticism of Israel has absolutely no connection to antisemitism, some of the unreasonable condemnation has its roots in antisemitic attitudes, often disguised as "anti-Zionism." Just as in the past Jews were the scapegoat for many problems, today there are attempts to turn Israel into an international pariah.

"Antisemitism" is the name given to the form of racism practiced against the Jewish people. Though the literal interpretation of antisemitism would appear to denote hostility to all Semitic peoples, this is a fallacy. The term was originally coined in Germany in 1879 to describe the European anti-Jewish campaigns of that era, and it soon came to define the persecution or discrimination against Jews throughout the ages.

Hatred of the Jewish people is an age-old phenomenon, traditionally associated with expressions of xenophobia and religious intolerance. Antisemitism has taken different forms and used various motifs throughout history. In modern times, it has been promoted by extreme nationalistic and even racist ideologies. Severe antisemitism exists in Arab countries today.


Egyptian version (1994) of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"
   
Egyptian version (2001) of antisemitic tract "The International Jew"
 


Antisemitism reached its peak in the Holocaust. Over 6 million Jews (one third of the world's Jewish population) were brutally and systematically murdered during World War II.

Modern antisemitism in Europe, after being repressed for decades, has erupted with renewed fury in recent years in a new form: "anti-Zionism," or hatred of the State of Israel.

Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people - an expression of their legitimate aspiration to self-determination and national independence. The Zionist movement was founded to provide an ancient people with a sovereign state of its own, in its ancestral homeland. Israel is the modern political embodiment of this age-old dream.

The goal of anti-Zionism is to undermine the legitimacy of Israel, thereby denying the Jewish people their place in the community of nations. Denigration of Zionism is therefore an attack on Israel's basic right to exist as a nation equal to all other nations, in violation of one of the fundamental principles of international law.

Just as antisemitism denies Jews their rights as individuals in society, anti-Zionism attacks the Jewish people as a nation, on the international level. Similar to the use of "the Jew" as a scapegoat for many a society's problems, Israel has been singled out for disproportionate and one-sided condemnation in the international arena.

Anti-Zionism is often manifested as attacks on Israel in the United Nations and other international forums. Over the years, many a meeting and event of the international community has been exploited as an opportunity to condemn Israel - no matter what the subject matter, no matter how tenuous the tie to the conflict in the Middle East.

Moreover, it is no coincidence that the recent censure of Israel in international forums and the media has been accompanied by a sharp increase in antisemitic incidents in many parts of the world.

As a nation dedicated to the principles of democracy, Israel believes that criticism, whether by other nations or our own people, is a powerful force for positive change. However, there is a clear distinction between legitimate calls for improvement and the attempt to delegitimize Israel by consistently singling it out and holding it up to standards not applied to other states. All this ignores the context in which Israel must strive to survive in the face of violent attacks against its citizens and, all too often, against its very existence.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 04, 2005, 04:36:16 AM
And to be even more exact:


What is the status of the territories?

Control over the West Bank and Gaza passed to Israel in 1967 in a war of self-defense. For nearly a quarter of a century afterwards, the Palestinians rejected every Israeli overture, missing opportunity after opportunity to peacefully resolve the dispute through negotiation. Yet as long as the future status of the West Bank and Gaza is subject to negotiation, Israel's claim to these disputed territories is no less valid than that of the Palestinians.



 
 
Israel's current presence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip dates back to 1967 and the Six Day War. However, these territories had formed the cradle of Jewish civilization during biblical times and Jewish communities existed there over thousands of years. Modern-day Israel has deep ties to the many historical sites located in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Yet Israel's claim to these territories is based not only on its ancient ties, religious beliefs and security needs; it is also firmly grounded in international law and custom.

It is important to remember that Israel's control of the territories began as a result of a war of self-defense, fought after Israel's very existence was threatened. It has continued due to the intransigence of Israel's Arab neighbors, who steadfastly rejected Israel's many offers of peace, including its post-Six Day War message that it would exchange most of the territory in return for peace. In 1979 Egypt and in 1994 Jordan finally signed peace treaties with Israel. But the Palestinians have yet to do so.

It has been asserted that Israel's continued presence in the territories violates UN Security Council Resolution 242 of 1967, one of the cornerstones of the peace process. This allegation ignores both the language and the original intent of 242. The framers of this resolution realized that the pre-1967 borders were indefensible, and deliberately chose to use the term withdrawal "from territories" (and not "from all the territories" as the Palestinians claim) in order to indicate the need for changing any future borders.

Moreover, Resolution 242 (and Resolution 338 of 1973) places obligations on both sides. The Arab regimes cannot demand that Israel unilaterally withdraw while they ignore their own responsibilities and the need for negotiations. They deliberately overlook the fact that 242 calls for the "termination of all claims or states of belligerency" and the "right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."

Israel's presence in the territories is often incorrectly referred to as an "occupation." However, under international law, occupation occurs in territories that have been taken from a recognized sovereign. The Jordanian rule over the West Bank and the Egyptian rule over the Gaza Strip during the years 1948-1967 resulted from a war of aggression aimed at destroying the newly established Jewish State. Their attacks plainly violated UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (also known as the Partition Plan). Accordingly, the Egyptian and Jordanian seizures of the territories were never recognized by the international community. As neither territory had a prior legitimate sovereign, under international law these areas cannot be considered as occupied and their most accurate description would be that of disputed territories.

Palestinian spokespersons not only claim that the territory is occupied, they also allege that occupation is - by definition - illegal. However, international law does not prohibit situations of occupation. Rather, it attempts to regulate such situations with international agreements and conventions. Therefore, claims that the so-called Israeli "occupation" is illegal - without regard either to its cause or the factors that have led to its continuation - are baseless allegations without foundation in international law.

Palestinian efforts to present Israel's presence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip as the primary cause of the conflict ignore history. Palestinian terrorism predates Israel's control of the territories (and even the existence of the State of Israel itself). The Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) was founded in 1964, three years before Israel's presence in the territories began. Moreover, Palestinian terrorism has often peaked during those periods when a negotiated settlement was closest at hand, whether at the height of the Oslo process in the mid-1990s or after Israel's unprecedented peace proposals at Camp David and Taba in 2000.

The West Bank and Gaza Strip are best regarded as disputed territory over which there are competing claims that should be resolved in peace talks. The final status of these disputed territories can only be determined through negotiations between the parties. Attempts to force a solution through terrorism are ethically indefensible and only serve to encourage further violence and terrorism.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: Now_Im_Not_Banned on November 07, 2005, 11:47:21 AM
^^Some nice reads.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 07, 2005, 01:06:22 PM
LOL I'm afraid not even your recommendation will open Jamal's eyes to the truth, man! He won't even read it.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: J Bananas on November 07, 2005, 01:14:04 PM
I like how this 8 page thread has about 3 people contributing
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: EARNERTON on November 09, 2005, 09:41:42 AM
all I know is mossad were in control of everything around an in Arafats home arrest situation, they knew if they got rid of him, they could then totally take the piss wit the palestinians, theirs all types of untraceble poisons out there, truss me on that, he didn't die from know AIDS like the cover story the Israeli goverment put out, those french doctors exposed that, you know, for real, they couldn't find what took him out, but it was suspect, truss, it was a suspect death
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 09, 2005, 10:51:49 AM
Hell, I would've been proud if it was true I suppose, the way all Jews around the world had been when Nazi war criminals were executed.
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: 7even on November 09, 2005, 10:53:02 AM
It is fucking obvious that Sharon poisoned him. He even said he was gonna assassinate Arafat shortly before he became sick. You gotta be a moron to not investigate into this shit. It's not even a question for me.


Arafat should've actually been dead long before if he hadn't been as sneaky as he was...You have to realise that his main purpose throughout the numerous peace treaties he'd been through( without any actual results ) was to legalize his terroristic agenda. Wether it was Oslo, Camp David or any other allegedly peace seeking advance he'd ostensibly make, all had a number of common denominators: There was an on going terroristic activity courtesy of numerous groups in the autonomy throughout each and every agreement, all agreements scored international justification and rationalization of terrorism(most of you people are byproducts of this) for the Palestinian authority, every agreement resulted in yet another vast shift of international funding under the flag of renovation of infrastructures(in reality none of the money had been used for this purpose), Arafat bailed out of every one of these agreements blaiming Israel in violation of the bargain terms with on going terroristic activity preceding his disclamation.

Hell, I would've been proud if it was true I suppose, the way all Jews around the world had been when Nazi war criminals were executed.

the real quote ^^
Title: Re: Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
Post by: I TO DA GEEZY on November 09, 2005, 10:54:18 AM
It is fucking obvious that Sharon poisoned him. He even said he was gonna assassinate Arafat shortly before he became sick. You gotta be a moron to not investigate into this shit. It's not even a question for me.


Arafat should've actually been dead long before if he hadn't been as sneaky as he was...You have to realise that his main purpose throughout the numerous peace treaties he'd been through( without any actual results ) was to legalize his terroristic agenda. Wether it was Oslo, Camp David or any other allegedly peace seeking advance he'd ostensibly make, all had a number of common denominators: There was an on going terroristic activity courtesy of numerous groups in the autonomy throughout each and every agreement, all agreements scored international justification and rationalization of terrorism(most of you people are byproducts of this) for the Palestinian authority, every agreement resulted in yet another vast shift of international funding under the flag of renovation of infrastructures(in reality none of the money had been used for this purpose), Arafat bailed out of every one of these agreements blaiming Israel in violation of the bargain terms with on going terroristic activity preceding his disclamation.

Hell, I would've been proud if it was true I suppose, the way all Jews around the world had been when Nazi war criminals were executed.

the real quote ^^

Thank you.