West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Don Rizzle on November 22, 2005, 01:09:15 PM
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The White House has dismissed claims George Bush was talked out of bombing Arab television station al-Jazeera by UK Prime Minister Tony Blair.
The allegations were made by an unnamed source in the Daily Mirror newspaper.
A White House official said: "We are not going to dignify something so outlandish with a response."
Ex-UK minister Peter Kilfoyle, who opposed the Iraq war, had called for a transcript of the alleged conversation to be published.
Launched in 1996, al-Jazeera is best known outside of the Arab world for carrying exclusive al-Qaeda messages.
The station is based in Qatar, a close ally of Washington's and the location of US military headquarters during the Iraq war.
'Top Secret'
According to the Mirror's source, the transcript records a conversation during Mr Blair's visit to the White House on 16 April 2004, in the wake of an attempt to root out insurgents in the Iraqi city of Falluja, in which 30 US Marines died.
If true, then this underlines the desperation of the Bush administration as events in Iraq began to spiral out of control
Sir Menzies Campbell, Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman
The memo, which the Mirror says is stamped "Top Secret", allegedly details how Mr Blair argued against what the paper calls a "plot" to attack the station's buildings in the business district of Doha, the capital city of Qatar.
A Downing Street spokesman said: "We have got nothing to say about this story. We don't comment on leaked documents."
But Mr Kilfoyle - a former defence minister and leading Labour opponent of the Iraq war - has called for the full text to be published.
"I believe that Downing Street ought to publish this memo in the interests of transparency, given that much of the detail appears to be in the public domain.
"I think they ought to clarify what exactly happened on this occasion.
"If it was the case that President Bush wanted to bomb al-Jazeera in what is after all a friendly country, it speaks volumes and it raises questions about subsequent attacks that took place on the press that wasn't embedded with coalition forces."
Al-Jazeera reaction
Mr Kilfoyle said he had not seen the memo, but had learnt of its alleged contents at the time of the original leak and believed it tallied with the Mirror's report.
In a statement, al-Jazeera said it needed to be sure of the report's authenticity before reaching any conclusions and urged Downing Street to confirm its status as soon as possible.
The statement said: "If the report is correct, then this would be both shocking and worrisome not only to al-Jazeera but to media organisations across the world.
"It would cast serious doubts in regard to the US administration's version of previous incidents involving al-Jazeera's journalists and offices."
Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman Sir Menzies Campbell said: "If true, then this underlines the desperation of the Bush administration as events in Iraq began to spiral out of control.
"On this occasion, the prime minister may have been successful in averting political disaster, but it shows how dangerous his relationship with President Bush has been."
'Joke'
BBC News website world affairs correspondent Paul Reynolds said: "An attack on al-Jazeera would also have been an attack on Qatar, where the US military has its Middle East headquarters. So the possibility has to be considered that Mr Bush was in fact making some kind of joke and that this was not a serious proposition."
According to The Mirror, the transcript is the document which allegedly turned up in the constituency office of former Labour MP Tony Clarke in May 2004.
Mr Clarke - who voted against the Iraq War and lost his Northampton South seat in this May's election - said he returned the document to the government because of fears British troops' lives could be put at risk if it became public.
Cabinet Office civil servant David Keogh has been charged under the Official Secrets Act of passing it to Mr Clarke's former researcher Leo O'Connor.
Both men are bailed to appear at Bow Street Magistrates Court next week.
Mr Clarke refused to discuss the contents of the document which he received, telling the Press Association his priority was supporting Mr O'Connor, who he said did "exactly the right thing" in bringing it to his attention.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk_politics/4459296.stm
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A cameraman working for Aljazeera has been beaten and briefly arrested by Israeli soldiers while filming a protest in the West Bank.
Nabil al-Mazzawi was detained along with three other foreign protestors while filiming a demonstration against Israel's construction of the separation barrier.
He was later released, Aljazeera management confirmed.
Aljazeera's editor-in-chief Ahmad Sheikh said al-Mazzawi was filming one of the Israeli occupation soldiers who was beating activists during the protest. Another soldier then beat the cameraman before arrresting him, he said.
"Nabil al-Mazzawi was filming one of the Israeli soldiers who was beating activists during a protest"
The incident took place in the village of Beilin, near the town of Ram Allah, at a weekly protest against Israel's controversial barrier.
Aljazeera correspondent Shireen Abu Aqleh said al-Mazzawi was beaten and detained, along with his camera and the film which he was taking at the time of the incident.
Commenting on the incident, an Israeli police spokesman said an Aljazeera cameraman had been arrested during the protest after first assaulting a border policeman.
The spokesman told AFP he did not know whether al-Mazzawi was beaten, but if so, it was within his rights to file a complaint.
Six Israeli peace activists were also arrested during the protest, rally organiser Abd Allah Abu Rahma told AFP.
Israeli peace activists, foreigners and Palestinians hold regular protests in the area against the barrier. They are routinely broken up by Israeli forces firing rubber bullets or teargas.
Israel has insisted the massive barrier of electric fencing, barbed wire and concrete wall is vital to stop potential attackers from infiltrating the country and Jewish settlements in the West Bank.
The Palestinians condemn the wall as an attempt to grab their land and undermine the viability of their promised state.
On 9 July 2004, the International Court of Justice issued a non-binding ruling that parts of the 650km (410-mile) barrier which criss-crosses the West Bank were illegal and should be torn dow
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This is crazy, but the only way I will believe this if I actually hear this conversation between Bush and Blair
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i remember hearing some thing re: some top level us faggot said that al jazzera was a threat, needed to be taken out somethin like that
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I'm down. Fox News after that...
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I'm down. Fox News after that...
Al-Jazeera is a terrorist news network. Some of their reporters have been found guilty in Spain of belonging to Al-Quada.
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^^^
well...if i worked for al jazeera yes i would be guilty of belonging to al jazeera. im not saying dont bomb em. i think we should, in fact i'd wanna watch the channel while their studio gets blown up
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I meant Al-Quada.
The whole story about Bush wanting to blow up their headquarters is bullshit.
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I'm down. Fox News after that...
Al-Jazeera is a terrorist news network. Some of their reporters have been found guilty in Spain of belonging to Al-Quada.
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I meant Al-Quada.
The whole story about Bush wanting to blow up their headquarters is bullshit.
Real American was just with bush on the phone and asked him
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Real American was just with bush on the phone and asked him
Seriously though, Al Jazeera is based in Qatar. That is also where the US military command center is. Do you really think the US would commit an attack on Al Jazeera in a peaceful country that is also an ally? And not expect worldwide outrage?
This whole memo is bullshit.
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And not expect worldwide outrage?
Like that even matters...
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I Don't think bush would be stupid enough to bomb qatar,but al jazeera got bombed in iraq and afghanistan by US missles,which raises a few ??????????
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Looks like Al Jazeera is toast then... If Bush orders it, which he didn't. That's outlandish.
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Real American was just with bush on the phone and asked him
Seriously though, Al Jazeera is based in Qatar. That is also where the US military command center is. Do you really think the US would commit an attack on Al Jazeera in a peaceful country that is also an ally? And not expect worldwide outrage?
This whole memo is bullshit.
duh!.. where does it say they were gonna attack them there? they have offices in iraq silly...
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^^
The memo, which the Mirror says is stamped "Top Secret", allegedly details how Mr Blair argued against what the paper calls a "plot" to attack the station's buildings in the business district of Doha, the capital city of Qatar.
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Looks like Al Jazeera is toast then... If Bush orders it, which he didn't. That's outlandish.
You still having the nerve to post here is outlandish
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Looks like Al Jazeera is toast then... If Bush orders it, which he didn't. That's outlandish.
You still having the nerve to post here is outlandish
Die slow faggot.
Happy Thanksgiving!
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Aha, This Chump caught feelings. I control you destiny. I got this chump snappin and throwin a fit.
;D you killin me mayne
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Aha, This Chump caught feelings. I control you destiny. I got this chump snappin and throwin a fit.
;D you killin me mayne
Enjoy your saturday night!
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Clinton bombed the Serbian National TV. Nobody made all this noise back in the days. Actually nobody gave a fuck. Now it's like everybody in the world is a fan of Al-Jazeera. Mmmm..
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^ Further proof why you feminine italians have no business discussing politics
lets compare state run serbian natl tv to al jazeera, u dumb inbred rat. :-X
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Oh. So it's possible to bomb State Run televisions but not Al Jazeera and the supposed-to-be-free televisions? Ok. Now i got it.
Could i make you a list of State Run televisions i'd like to bomb?
I'll start with Italian RAI. Stay tuned for the full list.
P.S. Just like Jamal, when you got no good responses you just diss other people who didn't diss you in the first place. Very "muslim".
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This is what you get when you let crazy people run your country.
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Oh. So it's possible to bomb State Run televisions but not Al Jazeera and the supposed-to-be-free televisions? Ok. Now i got it.
Could i make you a list of State Run televisions i'd like to bomb?
I'll start with Italian RAI. Stay tuned for the full list.
P.S. Just like Jamal, when you got no good responses you just diss other people who didn't diss you in the first place. Very "muslim".
No, son. Just like Jamal, i run out of patience with you stupid fucks and have to resort to making fun of you to entertain myself.
I wouldnt even know where to begin rippin your post son. Just fall back and stick to Kobe.
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Didn't they already bomb the Al Jazeera and some other media building (abu daabi or something) in Iraq.
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in iraq and afghanistan
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Oh. So it's possible to bomb State Run televisions but not Al Jazeera and the supposed-to-be-free televisions? Ok. Now i got it.
Could i make you a list of State Run televisions i'd like to bomb?
I'll start with Italian RAI. Stay tuned for the full list.
P.S. Just like Jamal, when you got no good responses you just diss other people who didn't diss you in the first place. Very "muslim".
No, son. Just like Jamal, i run out of patience with you stupid fucks and have to resort to making fun of you to entertain myself.
I wouldnt even know where to begin rippin your post son. Just fall back and stick to Kobe.
Matter of fact you didn't. Matter of fact Jamal didn't.
Continue to entertain yourself by dissing other people who didn't diss you.
But don't try to sell me you're a real "muslim". Real muslims are more intelligent than you. And don't disrespect other people.
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^ you referring to this?
Does the fact that Christians made crusades and killed innocent people make things in Saudi Arabia looks better? ::)
No you dipshit, but the RealPolack said that Muslims in general are intolerant, meaning it has to do with the religion... I just pointed out that I could make the same claim for Christians... a small group of extremists don't represent 1 billion people.
Anyways, you stick to your "I wish I was raped by Kobe" posts..
LOL... that's not because I didn't have a good response... it's because you hopped in there when you didn't know what the fuck was going on... you didn't read his post, and started that gay eye rolling, thinking you're making a good point when you were just exposing the gump in you
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I find you pathetic, boy. You always say Islam means peace, you always says real muslims loves peace and have no problems with other people. Shit, that topic was about Saudi Arabians not allowing Christians to pratice Christianity. And you said real muslims ain't like that. But still you dissed me with no reason, you acted racist about the fact i'm Italian, unaccepting me posting in this section of the forum. You acted like a Saudi Arabian. Congrats. But next time don't even try to defend them. You are not a true muslim. You are a faker. At least i hope so, cause if you aren't, then all muslims are like you, and it's not a nice thing to say.
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LOL... you got all that out of that 1 post? i dunno what the fuck you've been smokin man but you seem tripped out
Do you need a chronological breakdown to understand shit that's right in front of your eyes?
CWalker made a statement about Muslims in general being intolerant
I was making the point that you can't make generalizations for the actions of some... and used certain things as examples for why I could make such dumb generalizations about Christianity
You come in here like a retard telling me "what does that have to do with the topic" not knowing that I was just responding to CWalker's post... which is why I responded to you the way I did... and here we are, with you whining and sounding like a little bitch, and me treating you like some special-ed kid who needs extra help understanding shit
Go jack off to your Kobe poster or something man... you're an idiot
then come back and reply with how un-Islamic my post was... LOL fuckin weirdo
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You don't have to explain me that topic. You just have to read my last reply in that topic if you wanna know how i feel about it. The first one was just the premise i need to make the second one. The second one was a consequence. But it's too difficult for you to link two posts in the same topic, i overrated you.
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This has nothing to do with how you feel about it... I don't give a shit how you feel... actually the 1st one wasn't a premise... the 1st one was your retarded question where you had no clue what I was responding to... then after I clowned on you a little, you asked your question in regards to the topic, which was the premise for your last reply where you assumed I gave a fuck about how you feel
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I don't know the history of this JML/Antonio argument, but alot of you think that you can come on here and slander Muslims all day, and then whenever one of us responds in like manner, you want to play games and say, "That's not how a real Muslim would act."[/i] Yeah, it would be better for a Muslim to take the higher ground, but Islam is also a practical religion, and Allah mentions this in the Qu'ran.
It's like Tech said, he tried to drop knowledge on you all respectfully, but ya'll only displayed the maturity of a sperm cell, so now he just entertains himself by clownin on ya'll.
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I don't know the history of this JML/Antonio argument, but alot of you think that you can come on here and slander Muslims all day, and then whenever one of us responds in like manner, you want to play games and say, "That's not how a real Muslim would act."[/i] Yeah, it would be better for a Muslim to take the higher ground, but Islam is also a practical religion, and Allah mentions this in the Qu'ran.
Dear Infinite, i'd like to have a conversation with you about that, since it sounds impossible to have an educated one with Jamal or Tech. This is the conversation i've had with Jamal. Take your conclusions and see by yourself who dissed who, and who acted immature. Plus please reply to my last comment. It's important, for me, to understand what a real muslim thinks about that. And i consider you a real muslim.
ANTONIO
Does the fact that Christians made crusades and killed innocent people make things in Saudi Arabia looks better? ::)
JAMAL
No you dipshit, but the RealPolack said that Muslims in general are intolerant, meaning it has to do with the religion... I just pointed out that I could make the same claim for Christians... a small group of extremists don't represent 1 billion people.
Anyways, you stick to your "I wish I was raped by Kobe" posts..
ANTONIO
So dissing me without a reason was your way to reply to my simple question? Mmmm.. I'll make it easier for you, but please no more average 12-years-old replies, i know you can make better ones if you want. Question: is it right or is it wrong what is happening in Saudi Arabia with Christians?
JAMAL
It's wrong. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, etc... all fucked up governments... but the U.S. government doesn't care... it only cares when it's Iraq, Iran, Syria.... think about why...
ANTONIO
It's so obvious, man. But since you're talking about the US Government, I'm sure you know how they're trying to make it looks like there's a Christians vs Muslims war going on. At every level, expecially culturally speaking. They're portraying you all like beasts who kills Christians in the name of your God and who doesn't respect other people's freedom. They're using those situations to make propaganda for themselves. They're creating monsters. I know that's wrong! But the only way to avoid it is to admit what is right and what is wrong, without increasing the hate between the two religions over nothing. If you admit that it's fucked up there in Saudi Arabia, i'll respect you. And nobody will have the rights to diss you all. Only morons/haters will, but just ignore them. And i'm sure you'll probably respect me if i admit other fucked up things done by Christians (and the list is very very long). That's IMO the right attitude to say "NO" to Bush's lies and to respect each others. I got nothing but love and respect for muslims, in general. But there in Saudi Arabia they should tolerate Christianity.
It's like Tech said, he tried to drop knowledge on you all respectfully, but ya'll only displayed the maturity of a sperm cell, so now he just entertains himself by clownin on ya'll.
So you think it was right to bomb Serbian State TV? Or that it's right to bomb State TV's in general? You really see a difference between bombing Serbian TV and Al Jazeera? I say both the things are wrong. But this is what happens during wars.
Oh, and if you have 5 mins, check my replies to Ant in this topic
http://www.dubcnn.com/connect/index.php?topic=96340.0
to see what i think about wars and expecially "wars for peace". Thanx for your time. Antonio.
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Dear Infinite, i'd like to have a conversation with you about that, since it sounds impossible to have an educated one with Jamal or Tech. This is the conversation i've had with Jamal. Take your conclusions and see by yourself who dissed who, and who acted immature. Plus please reply to my last comment. It's important, for me, to understand what a real muslim thinks about that. And i consider you a real muslim.
ANTONIO
Does the fact that Christians made crusades and killed innocent people make things in Saudi Arabia looks better? ::)
JAMAL
No you dipshit, but the RealPolack said that Muslims in general are intolerant, meaning it has to do with the religion... I just pointed out that I could make the same claim for Christians... a small group of extremists don't represent 1 billion people.
Anyways, you stick to your "I wish I was raped by Kobe" posts..
ANTONIO
So dissing me without a reason was your way to reply to my simple question? Mmmm.. I'll make it easier for you, but please no more average 12-years-old replies, i know you can make better ones if you want. Question: is it right or is it wrong what is happening in Saudi Arabia with Christians?
JAMAL
It's wrong. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, etc... all fucked up governments... but the U.S. government doesn't care... it only cares when it's Iraq, Iran, Syria.... think about why...
ANTONIO
It's so obvious, man. But since you're talking about the US Government, I'm sure you know how they're trying to make it looks like there's a Christians vs Muslims war going on. At every level, expecially culturally speaking. They're portraying you all like beasts who kills Christians in the name of your God and who doesn't respect other people's freedom. They're using those situations to make propaganda for themselves. They're creating monsters. I know that's wrong! But the only way to avoid it is to admit what is right and what is wrong, without increasing the hate between the two religions over nothing. If you admit that it's fucked up there in Saudi Arabia, i'll respect you. And nobody will have the rights to diss you all. Only morons/haters will, but just ignore them. And i'm sure you'll probably respect me if i admit other fucked up things done by Christians (and the list is very very long). That's IMO the right attitude to say "NO" to Bush's lies and to respect each others. I got nothing but love and respect for muslims, in general. But there in Saudi Arabia they should tolerate Christianity.
It's like Tech said, he tried to drop knowledge on you all respectfully, but ya'll only displayed the maturity of a sperm cell, so now he just entertains himself by clownin on ya'll.
So you think it was right to bomb Serbian State TV? Or that it's right to bomb State TV's in general? You really see a difference between bombing Serbian TV and Al Jazeera? I say both the things are wrong. But this is what happens during wars.
Oh, and if you have 5 mins, check my replies to Ant in this topic
http://www.dubcnn.com/connect/index.php?topic=96340.0
to see what i think about wars and expecially "wars for peace". Thanx for your time. Antonio.
Thank you for the compliment and for the polite way in which you addressed me. I respect you for that. I think there's alot of benefit everybody could be getting from this forum, people from various backgrounds and countries who have one way or another been brought together at this forum by our love for hip-hop. Sometimes the nonsense and arguments can be entertaining (some say too much agreement kills a chat) but it doesn't have to be like that, and we could benefit more without it.
Anyway, I'm going to read your posts at the link you supplied. And which statement is it you want me to reply to, the thing with Tech about the Serbian TV issue, or the reply to Jamal about the Saudi/Christian issue? Hollerback-peace-1G-d
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Antonio.. you little whining bitch...
don't forget to include what I was responding to...
Why are Muslims so intolerant towards other religions?
notice how he didn't mention the Saudi Arabian government but was talking about Muslims in general... so that's why I brought up those examples... then you came in like a retard not knowing what the fuck is going on, and I talk a little shit to you and you start acting like some bitch pms'ing... go play some soccer and eat some pizza.. relax and realize that if you say something stupid without knowing what the fuck is going on, I'm gonna respond the way I did... I don't know why you're all fuckin butthurt
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bush DID bomb al jezeera the first day of the war, he took out their building and satellite, and ended up giving some lame fucking retarded excuse like he always does. the bush admin. is hella smart tho, they know what to say and how to say, just to get by, and...........i wonder....................................
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Oh. So it's possible to bomb State Run televisions but not Al Jazeera and the supposed-to-be-free televisions? Ok. Now i got it.
Could i make you a list of State Run televisions i'd like to bomb?
I'll start with Italian RAI. Stay tuned for the full list.
P.S. Just like Jamal, when you got no good responses you just diss other people who didn't diss you in the first place. Very "muslim".
No, son. Just like Jamal, i run out of patience with you stupid fucks and have to resort to making fun of you to entertain myself.
I wouldnt even know where to begin rippin your post son. Just fall back and stick to Kobe.
Matter of fact you didn't. Matter of fact Jamal didn't.
Continue to entertain yourself by dissing other people who didn't diss you.
But don't try to sell me you're a real "muslim". Real muslims are more intelligent than you. And don't disrespect other people.
fuck that nigga up antonio, its niggas like him that give muslims a bad name, and make us seem irate...
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I don't know the history of this JML/Antonio argument, but alot of you think that you can come on here and slander Muslims all day, and then whenever one of us responds in like manner, you want to play games and say, "That's not how a real Muslim would act."[/i] Yeah, it would be better for a Muslim to take the higher ground, but Islam is also a practical religion, and Allah mentions this in the Qu'ran.
It's like Tech said, he tried to drop knowledge on you all respectfully, but ya'll only displayed the maturity of a sperm cell, so now he just entertains himself by clownin on ya'll.
this nigga keeps it tooo real for u suckaz.... allah's slave gets a prop......
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Thank you for the compliment and for the polite way in which you addressed me. I respect you for that. I think there's alot of benefit everybody could be getting from this forum, people from various backgrounds and countries who have one way or another been brought together at this forum by our love for hip-hop. Sometimes the nonsense and arguments can be entertaining (some say too much agreement kills a chat) but it doesn't have to be like that, and we could benefit more without it.
Anyway, I'm going to read your posts at the link you supplied. And which statement is it you want me to reply to, the thing with Tech about the Serbian TV issue, or the reply to Jamal about the Saudi/Christian issue? Hollerback-peace-1G-d
It's just sad, man. If you read all my posts, i've never ever dissed a guy for the simple fact he's a muslim. I got nothing but respect for muslims. But this forum is no longer a "Train of Thought" forum. It's more like "i'm the man, and this is my zone, you bitch!" kind of forum, full of beefs, full of people hating on each others with no reasons at all. There's a stupid muslims vs christians war going on in this forum, and it's really sad. One simple question posted and you start a war. LOL there's somebody in this topic who wrote "fuck that nigga up antonio, its niggas like him that give muslims a bad name, and make us seem irate...", totally nonsense.
But anyway.. i'll just ignore the disses. I'd like to chat with you about this bullshit going on, this muslims vs christians war going on.
About the US army killing innocent people, torturing Iraqi soldiers, probably using WP on civilians, etc.. I ain't surprised about that. I mean if you see if from their point of view, they are there to fight a war, against a real enemy. Iraqi are their enemies. They're scared of Iraqi soldiers and civilians. They fought a war against them. People died. Fellow soldiers died. When things like that happens, those fucked up actions are just a consequence. I don't blame them. I blame Bush. Cause he tried to sell us this bullshit of the "war for Iraqi's freedom". The "mission of peace" bullshit is just unacceptable to me. Because that's probably the political justification of the war. That's the war seen from a political point of view. But the real one, the people's one, it's still a war. With dead bodies lying on the floor. It's wrong not because it's not, from a political point of view, a real war for Iraqi's freedom. It's a wrong war for the simple fact it's a war. Plus it's wrong because Bush tried to make it look like it was a war against mulsims. He has portrayed muslims like beasts. Like people who can't accept christians. Like bastards. Totally wrong, imo. I posted in that topic (see the quotes i wrote in the previous post) with Jamal just to explain why imo you muslims should blame Saudi Arabia for not letting christian people profess their religion. To blame USA or Israel for other fucked up things they did/do, or to blame christians is the worse possible response you could do, imo. Because, to prove Bush was/is wrong about you all, you should start making it clear that in Saudi Arabia they're wrong. That's why i wanted Jamal to admit it. It's the first step. The hardest one. But the most important one.
This is, once again, what i wrote to him:
JAMAL
It's wrong. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, etc... all fucked up governments... but the U.S. government doesn't care... it only cares when it's Iraq, Iran, Syria.... think about why...
ANTONIO
It's so obvious, man. But since you're talking about the US Government, I'm sure you know how they're trying to make it looks like there's a Christians vs Muslims war going on. At every level, expecially culturally speaking. They're portraying you all like beasts who kills Christians in the name of your God and who doesn't respect other people's freedom. They're using those situations to make propaganda for themselves. They're creating monsters. I know that's wrong! But the only way to avoid it is to admit what is right and what is wrong, without increasing the hate between the two religions over nothing. If you admit that it's fucked up there in Saudi Arabia, i'll respect you. And nobody will have the rights to diss you all. Only morons/haters will, but just ignore them. And i'm sure you'll probably respect me if i admit other fucked up things done by Christians (and the list is very very long). That's IMO the right attitude to say "NO" to Bush's lies and to respect each others. I got nothing but love and respect for muslims, in general. But there in Saudi Arabia they should tolerate Christianity.
Do you agree?
P.S. To Jamal and Tech: i ain't mad at you both. But next time don't diss me without a reason, i'd rather have a nice conversation than to spend my free time dissing a monitor. Peace.
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Shut up woman. Dont ask for no pass. You aint gettin it.
1. Pussy I never claimed to be a real Muslim. Whatever the fuck that means, I ll leave all that "real" talk for fuckin 14 year old Ohio trailer trash.
2. Youre comparing Serbian natl TV and Al Jazeera and tryin to find a common ground between them regarding their use as military targets. You playin ya self son. I dont even need to tear into your post, its already mincemeat.
3. Id rather have an intelligent conversation with intelligent people, but much to my dismay this isnt as common on this forum as I wish it to be. So kindly fuck off if u dont meet the above criteria and instead u find your self being victimized.
Ask your self why there are people on this forum who I havent even looked at in a negative manner for 4 years and why theres some people who are just plain certified bitches and will remain as such till the die Tech loggs off. Then re read your posts. Then acknowledge that light bulb above your head. Follow that up by going to the library and gettin a membership.
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Oh. So it's possible to bomb State Run televisions but not Al Jazeera and the supposed-to-be-free televisions? Ok. Now i got it.
Could i make you a list of State Run televisions i'd like to bomb?
I'll start with Italian RAI. Stay tuned for the full list.
P.S. Just like Jamal, when you got no good responses you just diss other people who didn't diss you in the first place. Very "muslim".
No, son. Just like Jamal, i run out of patience with you stupid fucks and have to resort to making fun of you to entertain myself.
I wouldnt even know where to begin rippin your post son. Just fall back and stick to Kobe.
Matter of fact you didn't. Matter of fact Jamal didn't.
Continue to entertain yourself by dissing other people who didn't diss you.
But don't try to sell me you're a real "muslim". Real muslims are more intelligent than you. And don't disrespect other people.
fuck that nigga up antonio, its niggas like him that give muslims a bad name, and make us seem irate...
Son, I was in Baghdad when u was in your daddy bag. I know u learned a nice $2 word "irate" and were lookin for an excuse to use it. Keep the name out ya mouth, and the Tech off ya mind siin? Ill give u a pass. All Muslims/Quik fans/Canadians earn a one time pass.
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It's just sad, man. If you read all my posts, i've never ever dissed a guy for the simple fact he's a muslim. I got nothing but respect for muslims. But this forum is no longer a "Train of Thought" forum. It's more like "i'm the man, and this is my zone, you bitch!" kind of forum, full of beefs, full of people hating on each others with no reasons at all. There's a stupid muslims vs christians war going on in this forum, and it's really sad. One simple question posted and you start a war. LOL there's somebody in this topic who wrote "fuck that nigga up antonio, its niggas like him that give muslims a bad name, and make us seem irate...", totally nonsense.
But anyway.. i'll just ignore the disses. I'd like to chat with you about this bullshit going on, this muslims vs christians war going on.
About the US army killing innocent people, torturing Iraqi soldiers, probably using WP on civilians, etc.. I ain't surprised about that. I mean if you see if from their point of view, they are there to fight a war, against a real enemy. Iraqi are their enemies. They're scared of Iraqi soldiers and civilians. They fought a war against them. People died. Fellow soldiers died. When things like that happens, those fucked up actions are just a consequence. I don't blame them. I blame Bush. Cause he tried to sell us this bullshit of the "war for Iraqi's freedom". The "mission of peace" bullshit is just unacceptable to me. Because that's probably the political justification of the war. That's the war seen from a political point of view. But the real one, the people's one, it's still a war. With dead bodies lying on the floor. It's wrong not because it's not, from a political point of view, a real war for Iraqi's freedom. It's a wrong war for the simple fact it's a war. Plus it's wrong because Bush tried to make it look like it was a war against mulsims. He has portrayed muslims like beasts. Like people who can't accept christians. Like bastards. Totally wrong, imo. I posted in that topic (see the quotes i wrote in the previous post) with Jamal just to explain why imo you muslims should blame Saudi Arabia for not letting christian people profess their religion. To blame USA or Israel for other fucked up things they did/do, or to blame christians is the worse possible response you could do, imo. Because, to prove Bush was/is wrong about you all, you should start making it clear that in Saudi Arabia they're wrong. That's why i wanted Jamal to admit it. It's the first step. The hardest one. But the most important one.
This is, once again, what i wrote to him:
JAMAL
It's wrong. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, etc... all fucked up governments... but the U.S. government doesn't care... it only cares when it's Iraq, Iran, Syria.... think about why...
ANTONIO
It's so obvious, man. But since you're talking about the US Government, I'm sure you know how they're trying to make it looks like there's a Christians vs Muslims war going on. At every level, expecially culturally speaking. They're portraying you all like beasts who kills Christians in the name of your God and who doesn't respect other people's freedom. They're using those situations to make propaganda for themselves. They're creating monsters. I know that's wrong! But the only way to avoid it is to admit what is right and what is wrong, without increasing the hate between the two religions over nothing. If you admit that it's fucked up there in Saudi Arabia, i'll respect you. And nobody will have the rights to diss you all. Only morons/haters will, but just ignore them. And i'm sure you'll probably respect me if i admit other fucked up things done by Christians (and the list is very very long). That's IMO the right attitude to say "NO" to Bush's lies and to respect each others. I got nothing but love and respect for muslims, in general. But there in Saudi Arabia they should tolerate Christianity.
Do you agree?
You got to give me specific examples of Saudi's alleged abuse of Christians, and then I can comment on them accordingly. The Saudi government, like the US government, does some things well, and does other things poorly. So if you give me a specific example/article or something, then I can comment on it.
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Oh, the example was the one of the topic
Saudi Teacher Sentenced to 750 Lashes
By TAREK AL-ISSAWI, Associated Press Writer
Thursday, November 17, 2005
(11-17) 09:10 PST DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) --
A Saudi high-school chemistry teacher accused of discussing religion with his students has been sentenced to 750 lashes and 40 months in prison for blasphemy, officials said Thursday.
The court ruling was condemned by human rights activists, who said Mohammed Salamah al-Harbi was being imprisoned for having an "open discussion" with students.
Al-Harbi was convicted of questioning and ridiculing Islam, discussing the Bible and defending Jews, judicial officials said Thursday on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media.
Prosecutors acted after a complaint by students and al-Harbi's fellow teachers, officials said. The court in the northern province of al-Qassim heard the case Saturday in a six-hour trial.
Al-Harbi was in prison Thursday, but the Saudi newspaper Al-Madinah reported him as saying he would appeal the verdict.
"There are charges that the judge read which are unknown to me, such as defending Jews and the Bible, ridiculing Islam and witchcraft. It's strange that the judge ruled so quickly and wanted to end the case so fast," al-Harbi was quoted as saying.
His lawyer, Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, refused to talk to The Associated Press because of the sensitivity of the case, but he was quoted as telling Al-Madinah the judge refused his request to postpone the trial to allow time for a proper defense.
"The judge's refusal to read a statement by witnesses is a violation of the defendant's rights," al-Lahem was quoted as saying in Sunday's edition.
New York-based Human Rights Watch said al-Harbi had been "talking to his pupils about his views on a number of current topics, such as Christianity, Judaism and the causes of terrorism."
"The Saudi government is imprisoning schoolteachers for having open discussions with their students," said Sarah Leah Whitson, the group's Middle East director said in a statement Thursday. "As long as schoolteachers face persecution for doing their job, Saudi children will lose out."
Al-Harbi's sentence likely will be seen as a setback to Saudi moves to reform its education system. Following the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States, the government altered the school curriculum to remove passages from textbooks that were offensive to Christians and Jews in an attempt to encourage moderation and tolerance.
Fifteen of the 19 hijackers in those attacks were Saudis. Local intellectuals and newspaper columnists said the strict Islamic tenets followed in schools and mosques could have played a role in fostering Islamic militancy.
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Has anyone seen the documentary Control Room? I highly recommend it, as it demystifies Al-Jazeera -- it's certainly apparent that the filmmaker likes Al-Jazeera but, nevertheless, she still does an excellent job of presenting a mostly objective depiction of the network. It does cover a bit of the US military killing an Al-Jazeera correspondent in Iraq. It doesn't necessarily convince you that it was intentional, but it does raise some doubts. anyway--a movie worth seeing.
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Shut up woman. Dont ask for no pass. You aint gettin it.
1. Pussy I never claimed to be a real Muslim. Whatever the fuck that means, I ll leave all that "real" talk for fuckin 14 year old Ohio trailer trash.
2. Youre comparing Serbian natl TV and Al Jazeera and tryin to find a common ground between them regarding their use as military targets. You playin ya self son. I dont even need to tear into your post, its already mincemeat.
3. Id rather have an intelligent conversation with intelligent people, but much to my dismay this isnt as common on this forum as I wish it to be. So kindly fuck off if u dont meet the above criteria and instead u find your self being victimized.
Ask your self why there are people on this forum who I havent even looked at in a negative manner for 4 years and why theres some people who are just plain certified bitches and will remain as such till the die Tech loggs off. Then re read your posts. Then acknowledge that light bulb above your head. Follow that up by going to the library and gettin a membership.
Whatever, boy. I ain't interested in having an educated conversation with you no more, so you can stop wasting your time with those unnecessary long posts. Peace.
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Oh, the example was the one of the topic
Saudi Teacher Sentenced to 750 Lashes
By TAREK AL-ISSAWI, Associated Press Writer
Thursday, November 17, 2005
(11-17) 09:10 PST DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) --
A Saudi high-school chemistry teacher accused of discussing religion with his students has been sentenced to 750 lashes and 40 months in prison for blasphemy, officials said Thursday.
The court ruling was condemned by human rights activists, who said Mohammed Salamah al-Harbi was being imprisoned for having an "open discussion" with students.
Al-Harbi was convicted of questioning and ridiculing Islam, discussing the Bible and defending Jews, judicial officials said Thursday on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media.
Prosecutors acted after a complaint by students and al-Harbi's fellow teachers, officials said. The court in the northern province of al-Qassim heard the case Saturday in a six-hour trial.
Al-Harbi was in prison Thursday, but the Saudi newspaper Al-Madinah reported him as saying he would appeal the verdict.
"There are charges that the judge read which are unknown to me, such as defending Jews and the Bible, ridiculing Islam and witchcraft. It's strange that the judge ruled so quickly and wanted to end the case so fast," al-Harbi was quoted as saying.
His lawyer, Abdul Rahman al-Lahem, refused to talk to The Associated Press because of the sensitivity of the case, but he was quoted as telling Al-Madinah the judge refused his request to postpone the trial to allow time for a proper defense.
"The judge's refusal to read a statement by witnesses is a violation of the defendant's rights," al-Lahem was quoted as saying in Sunday's edition.
New York-based Human Rights Watch said al-Harbi had been "talking to his pupils about his views on a number of current topics, such as Christianity, Judaism and the causes of terrorism."
"The Saudi government is imprisoning schoolteachers for having open discussions with their students," said Sarah Leah Whitson, the group's Middle East director said in a statement Thursday. "As long as schoolteachers face persecution for doing their job, Saudi children will lose out."
Al-Harbi's sentence likely will be seen as a setback to Saudi moves to reform its education system. Following the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States, the government altered the school curriculum to remove passages from textbooks that were offensive to Christians and Jews in an attempt to encourage moderation and tolerance.
Fifteen of the 19 hijackers in those attacks were Saudis. Local intellectuals and newspaper columnists said the strict Islamic tenets followed in schools and mosques could have played a role in fostering Islamic militancy.
^^^ This article is talking about a different issue then the one you asked me to comment on. You asked me to comment on the Saudi's alleged abuses of Christians. This article is about the Saudi's reprimanding a Muslim teacher named "Mohammad".
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Antonio, do you feel what I'm saying? I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm pointing out that the example you showed me represents internal issue within the Muslim community. It deals with the Saudi's reaction to what they deamed heretical teaching by another Muslim. Which is a different subject.
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Antonio, do you feel what I'm saying? I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm pointing out that the example you showed me represents internal issue within the Muslim community. It deals with the Saudi's reaction to what they deamed heretical teaching by another Muslim. Which is a different subject.
That's exactly the point, man. I live in Italy. Well, it doesn't matter Christians are in overwhelming majorit here: Italy is still considered a non-religious Country by our Constitution, and everybody is allowed to follow and preach his favourite religion, with no limitations and with nobody forcing other people to preach a particular religion. At school, kids can choose if they want to partecipate to (Christian) lessons of religion or not. And they can partecipate to Islam lessions too, if they ask it. Here in Italy they've made a law so they had to remove all the Crucifixes from our public places (included schools) to respect people who ain't Christians. Here there are a lot of mosquees, expecially in Rome, basically where the Pope lives. There are 8 huge mosquees in Rome. And about 150 other mosquees all over our Country. You know what i mean? Why do you still consider Saudi Arabia a muslim nation? Religion should have nothing to do with the organization of a Country. I mean it's not acceptable for me to believe here in Italy, in the Country where the Pope lives, we are so "liberal", and there you can't be like us. Why? Why can't we have Christian Churches there? Why can't a teacher talk about Jesus Christ at school?
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Because the Saudi Arabian government is fucked up.
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I know i should blame Saudi Arabian Government, but it's so easy for ignorant people to blame muslims in general. It's so dangerous. Just show a service about this teacher's condamn to our TV News, here, and common people will react like: "Damn muslims! They're animals! Why do we let them do whatever they want here? Let's close mosquees!! Fuck them all!". 100% guaranteed. You real muslims should do something to avaid that. And the first step is to take distances from Government like the Saudi Arabian one.
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Antonio, I feel where your coming from, keep it real. I don't really know a whole lot about all the things your talking about. I don't want to say anything I'll regret, so let me leave it at that for now. Peace.
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Rather than me speaking on something I don't know alot about, let me just post an English translation of what Allah has said in the Noble Qu'ran regarding religious tolerance, then comment on it. I'd like to here your reply to these verses.
2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: [/i]
^^^This is proof from the Qu'ran that nobody should be forced into believing something against there will.
10:19 Mankind was but one nation, but differed (later). Had it not been for a word that went forth before from thy Lord, their differences would have been settled between them. [/i]
^^This basically explains that Allah desired for there to be differences amongst his creation.
73:19 Verily this is an Admonition: therefore, whoso will, let him take a (straight) path to his Lord![/i]
^^This is basically saying you can believe if you want.
74:37 To any of you that chooses to press forward, or to follow behind;- [/i]
^^Allah ofcourse puts submission to his will, in the forefront, you can only expect that, but he also gives an outlet for those who don't want to press forward. Because in Islam there is freedom of choice.
10: 99 "Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed.[/i]
^^Once again, Allah did not intend on everybody believing, Allah made us a people with differences.
49:13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. and Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
[/i]
^^^Once again Allah is advocating a pluralistic society.
2:2 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah. 2:3 Who believe in the Unseen...[/i]
^^^This is how the Qu'ran opens up, telling the reader that it's a book for people who believe in the Unseen. Meaning it's not for people who worship what they see or hear in this world but for people who worship the Unseen Creator, Most High, who Created everything we see and hear in this earth.
*******************
so what are your thoughts on the above verses?
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so what are your thoughts on the above verses?
I'm extremely happy to read it. I knew it. That's why i don't think we should make a Christians vs Muslims war. But I was thinking.. i'm a Roman Catholic Christian, the religion of the Pope of Rome. We have separated ourselves from the other branches of Christianity who was born after the original one (i mean we've never accepted them). There's a strong separation between "us" and the other people who still consider themselves Christians. Why don't you do something similiar with other people who claim to represent the same religion you do? Why did you call them people in Saudi Arabia "muslims"? Matter of fact they're representing a religion different from your. You should separate yourself from them fakers.
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Antonio, do you feel what I'm saying? I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm pointing out that the example you showed me represents internal issue within the Muslim community. It deals with the Saudi's reaction to what they deamed heretical teaching by another Muslim. Which is a different subject.
That's exactly the point, man. I live in Italy. Well, it doesn't matter Christians are in overwhelming majorit here: Italy is still considered a non-religious Country by our Constitution, and everybody is allowed to follow and preach his favourite religion, with no limitations and with nobody forcing other people to preach a particular religion. At school, kids can choose if they want to partecipate to (Christian) lessons of religion or not. And they can partecipate to Islam lessions too, if they ask it. Here in Italy they've made a law so they had to remove all the Crucifixes from our public places (included schools) to respect people who ain't Christians. Here there are a lot of mosquees, expecially in Rome, basically where the Pope lives. There are 8 huge mosquees in Rome. And about 150 other mosquees all over our Country. You know what i mean? Why do you still consider Saudi Arabia a muslim nation? Religion should have nothing to do with the organization of a Country. I mean it's not acceptable for me to believe here in Italy, in the Country where the Pope lives, we are so "liberal", and there you can't be like us. Why? Why can't we have Christian Churches there? Why can't a teacher talk about Jesus Christ at school?
the vatican is very powerful in itally and can operate great deal of censorship to stop things they deem damaging to their religion for example getting il caso calvi banned, although i may be wrong on this i'd like to hear your views on what kind of power the vatican can exert on italy
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I'm extremely happy to read it. I knew it. That's why i don't think we should make a Christians vs Muslims war. But I was thinking.. i'm a Roman Catholic Christian, the religion of the Pope of Rome. We have separated ourselves from the other branches of Christianity who was born after the original one (i mean we've never accepted them). There's a strong separation between "us" and the other people who still consider themselves Christians. Why don't you do something similiar with other people who claim to represent the same religion you do? Why did you call them people in Saudi Arabia "muslims"? Matter of fact they're representing a religion different from your. You should separate yourself from them fakers.
I'm not down with seperating myself with other people who claim submission to the will of Allah (Islam). Because the Qu'ran Kareem condemns that sort of behaivor. As the English translation shows in the following verses, dividing oneself into a seperate group or sect is not liked by Allah, and Allah teaches us to make ammends between two contending brothers.
49:10 The Believers are but a single Brotherhood: So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy. [/i]
[6:159] Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with
you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform
them of everything they had done.
[/i]
[30:32] (Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide
their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what
they have.
[/i]
[42:14] Ironically, they broke up into sects only after the
knowledge had come to them, due to jealousy and
resentment among themselves. If it were not for a
predetermined decision from your Lord to respite them for
a definite interim, they would have been judged
immediately. Indeed, the later generations who inherited
the scripture are full of doubts.
[/i]
There is one verse where Allah mentions that if a party of Muslims transgresses against other Muslims then you may defend those Muslims being transgressed against; but still the ultimate inclination is towards peace, and here is that verse.
49:9 If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of Allah; but if it complies then make peace between them with justice and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just). [/i]
Antonio, ^^ what are your thoughts?
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so all somebody has to do is claim a belief in allah and in the Quran and you'll consider them a brother and offer them your support? Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. That just sets you up to be taken advantage of by the Jerry Fallwells of your religion who will claim to believe, but only use their belief to manipulate others.
It's not healthy for your religion to blindly accept and support anyone who claims to be a muslim. It seems similiar to the current situation in America, where the biggest assholes in this country are the one's who most loudly proclaim to be patriotic americans (see bill orielly, rush limbaugh). Then some people who dont really think things thru say to themselves, yeah these guys are patriots just like me, so i am gonna support them.
If any group wants to stay strong it needs to take a stand against those who don't support the core ideals of the group. In your case certain muslims are at odds with the core beliefs of islam even tho they claim to have faith.
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so all somebody has to do is claim a belief in allah and in the Quran and you'll consider them a brother and offer them your support? Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. That just sets you up to be taken advantage of by the Jerry Fallwells of your religion who will claim to believe, but only use their belief to manipulate others.
It's not healthy for your religion to blindly accept and support anyone who claims to be a muslim. It seems similiar to the current situation in America, where the biggest assholes in this country are the one's who most loudly proclaim to be patriotic americans (see bill orielly, rush limbaugh). Then some people who dont really think things thru say to themselves, yeah these guys are patriots just like me, so i am gonna support them.
If any group wants to stay strong it needs to take a stand against those who don't support the core ideals of the group. In your case certain muslims are at odds with the core beliefs of islam even tho they claim to have faith.
I posted above an example of a verse from Qu'ran where Allah mentions that if a party of Muslims transgresses against other Muslims then you may defend those Muslims being transgressed against; but still the ultimate inclination is towards peace, and here is that verse.
49:9 If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of Allah; but if it complies then make peace between them with justice and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just). [/i]
So there are instances where the Qu'ran protects us from our religion being overtaken by people who transgress. But like I said above, ultimately Allah did not give this way of life to the people to divide them, Islam was sent as a mercy to the people. As Allah says in the Qu'ran something to the effect of "You were enemies one to another and Allah joined your hearts."[/i] And you see a great example of this every year at Hajj time, when Muslims from all over the world join together and perform the pilgrimage, and no matter if you are from Indonesia, Nigeria, or America your hearts are united and you join in prayer, worship, and effort in the path of Allah.
Islam was the way of life given to all the Prophets of mankind, the first known Prophet Adam, was taught to submit to his Creator alone, and to do righteous good deeds, which is the definition of Islam. All the Prophets followed this religion; even Jesus; what happened is later a hundred or so years after Jesus; Paul was riding his horse in Damascus and he said he saw a vision, and in the vision God was three, and Jesus was God and so on and so forth; I'll let one of the Christians on the forum explain it if they want to.
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Antonio, do you feel what I'm saying? I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm pointing out that the example you showed me represents internal issue within the Muslim community. It deals with the Saudi's reaction to what they deamed heretical teaching by another Muslim. Which is a different subject.
That's exactly the point, man. I live in Italy. Well, it doesn't matter Christians are in overwhelming majorit here: Italy is still considered a non-religious Country by our Constitution, and everybody is allowed to follow and preach his favourite religion, with no limitations and with nobody forcing other people to preach a particular religion. At school, kids can choose if they want to partecipate to (Christian) lessons of religion or not. And they can partecipate to Islam lessions too, if they ask it. Here in Italy they've made a law so they had to remove all the Crucifixes from our public places (included schools) to respect people who ain't Christians. Here there are a lot of mosquees, expecially in Rome, basically where the Pope lives. There are 8 huge mosquees in Rome. And about 150 other mosquees all over our Country. You know what i mean? Why do you still consider Saudi Arabia a muslim nation? Religion should have nothing to do with the organization of a Country. I mean it's not acceptable for me to believe here in Italy, in the Country where the Pope lives, we are so "liberal", and there you can't be like us. Why? Why can't we have Christian Churches there? Why can't a teacher talk about Jesus Christ at school?
the vatican is very powerful in itally and can operate great deal of censorship to stop things they deem damaging to their religion for example getting il caso calvi banned, although i may be wrong on this i'd like to hear your views on what kind of power the vatican can exert on italy
If you are a judge, or a politician, basically you don't want to go against the Vatican. Because it can damage your career, since there are millions of Christians here. That's how things like that happens (well it was in the late '70s anyway). Plus, since the Vatican moves millions of euro's, everyday, everybody wants to eat some of the cake. The "caso Calvi" was something extremely complicated, maybe too much for this forum/discussion. But no doubt there are some connections between judges, politicians, the Vatican, the money. But, to stay in-topic, it doesn't really affect the common people. Here it's legal to have an abortion, or to have a judicial separation. Here we all have free sex before we get married. Just to make some examples. Things that goes strongly against the Vatican's desire. It's not that they rule Italy, no way.
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Antonio, ^^ what are your thoughts?
I think everything should still start from the "real" muslims. Ok, you don't wanna officially separate yourself from people who are representing Islam in a bad way by creating two different branches of Islam, but at least i think you should condemn them. Strongly. Christians and Americans in particular can't stop them people, because they can only make them stronger. Only you can. If you all really want it. Do you?
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Wonderful NATO murdered tens of dozens of serbian journalists when they attacked the news offices in Belgrade, sickeningly this is ok in the name of "propaganda". In addition they have already attacked al jazeera buildings before.
Exactly.
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But, to stay in-topic, it doesn't really affect the common people. Here it's legal to have an abortion, or to have a judicial separation. Here we all have free sex before we get married. Just to make some examples. Things that goes strongly against the Vatican's desire. It's not that they rule Italy, no way.
I don't get it. Why even call yourself Catholics if ya'll don't even follow the Catholic church or follow the giudance and laws prescribed in the Bible?
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I think everything should still start from the "real" muslims. Ok, you don't wanna officially separate yourself from people who are representing Islam in a bad way by creating two different branches of Islam, but at least i think you should condemn them. Strongly. Christians and Americans in particular can't stop them people, because they can only make them stronger. Only you can. If you all really want it. Do you?
It depends on the situation. I know many Christians would love for every Muslim's cause to be taking down and opposing other Muslims, but that's not the reality of the situation. Most of these Muslim governments (including Saudi Arabia) were inserted into power by the West anyway. They wouldn't last a day without the support of the Western powers. So even if Muslims all gathered together and overthrew the Saudi government, the US, Isreal, and Britian would just install new puppets and stooges.
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But, to stay in-topic, it doesn't really affect the common people. Here it's legal to have an abortion, or to have a judicial separation. Here we all have free sex before we get married. Just to make some examples. Things that goes strongly against the Vatican's desire. It's not that they rule Italy, no way.
I don't get it. Why even call yourself Catholics if ya'll don't even follow the Catholic church or follow the giudance and laws prescribed in the Bible?
Good question.
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I think everything should still start from the "real" muslims. Ok, you don't wanna officially separate yourself from people who are representing Islam in a bad way by creating two different branches of Islam, but at least i think you should condemn them. Strongly. Christians and Americans in particular can't stop them people, because they can only make them stronger. Only you can. If you all really want it. Do you?
It depends on the situation. I know many Christians would love for every Muslim's cause to be taking down and opposing other Muslims, but that's not the reality of the situation. Most of these Muslim governments (including Saudi Arabia) were inserted into power by the West anyway. They wouldn't last a day without the support of the Western powers. So even if Muslims all gathered together and overthrew the Saudi government, the US, Isreal, and Britian would just install new puppets and stooges.
Ok, but it sounds like an excuse, to me. I mean you should do it no matter the consequence or the reason why things like that happens. It's like when Bush said God was with him and with the Americans, justifying the war against Iraq. The Pope basically slapped him, making it clear He was against every war, inclueded that one. Maybe one of your biggest problem, under this point of view, is that, if i understood it well, you have no Pope's. I mean for you it's not a pyramidal thing, with a leader who can speak for you all. So to separate yourself from those people gotta be harder.
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Ok, but it sounds like an excuse, to me. I mean you should do it no matter the consequence or the reason why things like that happens. It's like when Bush said God was with him and with the Americans, justifying the war against Iraq. The Pope basically slapped him, making it clear He was against every war, inclueded that one. Maybe one of your biggest problem, under this point of view, is that, if i understood it well, you have no Pope's. I mean for you it's not a pyramidal thing, with a leader who can speak for you all. So to separate yourself from those people gotta be harder.
Good convo, I think we are getting closer to some kind of an understanding.
Muslims used to have a figure called the "kalifa"[/i], who was like the Pope, in the regard that he was considered the central leader (Amir) of the Muslim world. (But unlike the Pope in the fact that a kalifa is not a Holy figure, just a man who has been appointed to leadership, and given the great responsibility of attending to the affairs of the Muslim world)
The last official kalipha[/i] was named Abdul Hameed, and he was stationed in Istanbul, Turkey, and he was the leader of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire was the most powerful empire in the world in the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries, but they were ultimately brought down during World War 1. Since then Muslims have not had a central authority. There have been many grassroots movements, and even at one time Mullah Omar, the leader of the Taliban was said to have called himself the Amir of the Muslim world, because some felt Afganistan was the only Islamic state standing on it's own two feet without the dictates of outside powers. Anyway, America invaded Afganistan in 2001 and the rest is history. We really don't know about much about the Taliban. And ofcourse we can't trust the major media outlets. Afganistan still had many remote regions, and tribal customs, so not everyone in Afganistan was lock in step with the Taliban, but they did have a soveriegn government at one time.
Anyway, ou also have other small Muslim groups and organizations with little publicity, and without any official state backing who could be considered Amirs to some extent. But like I said, nothing official like the kalipha's[/i] of the past.
btw, Currently, Iran is the only Muslim country left that can stand on it's own two feet without having to follow the dictates of an outside power. And even Iran, just won their independance in 1979, and they are constantly being threatened by America and Isreal.
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Thanx for your time, man. I've learned a lot from this conversation.
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But, to stay in-topic, it doesn't really affect the common people. Here it's legal to have an abortion, or to have a judicial separation. Here we all have free sex before we get married. Just to make some examples. Things that goes strongly against the Vatican's desire. It's not that they rule Italy, no way.
I don't get it. Why even call yourself Catholics if ya'll don't even follow the Catholic church or follow the giudance and laws prescribed in the Bible?
Good question.
I'd like to back to this good question. I'll explain you how things work here in Italy, where i live. About 95% of the italian population has received the baptism (we receive it when we are about 3-4 months old); about 85% of the population in general consider himself a Christian. But we are in a big process of laicization. First we've Constitutionally removed the Christian Catholic religion as the Statal one (in 1984), making Italy 100% a lay State (like i told you). And now there's a big removing of the common people from the Churches. Till the late 50's, about 70% of our population used to go to the Church at least once a week. Now it's decreased to about 25%. Plus people in general ain't following the rules of the Church no more, like they should be. I told you about abortions, premarital sex, divorces, scientifical experiments over embryos, etc.. We've basically lost the faith. The #1 mission of the new Pope will be to restore our faith. The faith of European Christians in general. We gotta make this step, you know. We are in a transition period where just like 10-15% of Italians are really living like Christians. The world is going to the laical direction, and you muslims are scaring, under this point of view, cause you could even die for your religion. That's something so opposite to our lost of faith that is scaring, for most of us.
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I still dont understand how such a dumb person is president of the USA.
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But, to stay in-topic, it doesn't really affect the common people. Here it's legal to have an abortion, or to have a judicial separation. Here we all have free sex before we get married. Just to make some examples. Things that goes strongly against the Vatican's desire. It's not that they rule Italy, no way.
I don't get it. Why even call yourself Catholics if ya'll don't even follow the Catholic church or follow the giudance and laws prescribed in the Bible?
its called confession, all you gotta do is tell the priest your sins and you will be forgiven!
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Mmmm.. it's not that easy, man. You are forgiven only if you are really repentant. And it implies that next week you shouldn't make the same sins. We basically call ourself Christians cause it's like a cultural tradition, you know. But we're very hypocrities, i admit it. I admire how muslims respect their rules.
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Antonio, ^^ good explanation above about the Catholic situation in Italy, peace.