Author Topic: democracy in the middle east: Hamas wins Palestinian parliamentary majority  (Read 709 times)

Don Rizzle

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I wonder if america is regretting their democracy drive?

Palestinian PM quits after poll
Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei has announced his resignation, saying Hamas must form the next government following the parliamentary elections.
It comes as the militant Islamic group appeared to be heading for a shock win.

With counting still under way, officials from the ruling Fatah party said Hamas had won a majority. Official results are due at 1900 (1700 GMT).

Israel, the US and the EU consider Hamas a terrorist group and have said they do not want to deal with it.

"I am going to present my resignation to President Abu Mazen [Mahmoud Abbas] and Hamas should form the [new] government," Mr Qurei told journalists, according to AFP news agency.


 Recognising Israel is not on the agenda
Mushir al-Masri
Hamas politician
 

Hours before official results were due to be released, Fatah officials privately admitted that Hamas had won.
Hamas claimed it had won at least 70 seats in the 132-member parliament.

The BBC's Jon Leyne in Jerusalem says there is no doubt that the Hamas showing has transformed the Palestinian political arena.

For decades, Fatah - the party founded by the late Yasser Arafat - has totally dominated electoral politics, but that time is over, he says.

Hamas is also now a major power and it will enter parliament still committed to its armed confrontation with Israel, our correspondent adds.

With victory looming, senior Hamas official Mushir al-Masri said the group wanted to work with Fatah in a "political partnership".

But he said Hamas would not hold peace talks with Israel.

"Negotiations with Israel is not on our agenda," he said.

"Recognising Israel is not on the agenda either now."

No talks

Speaking before Hamas claimed victory, acting Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Israel could not deal with a Palestinian Authority which included Hamas.

"Israel can't accept a situation in which Hamas, in its present form as a terror group calling for the destruction of Israel, will be part of the Palestinian Authority without disarming," Mr Olmert's office reported him as saying.

"I won't hold negotiations with a government that does not stick to its most basic obligation of fighting terror."

The European Union - the biggest provider of aid to the Palestinian Authority - said it would work with any peaceful Palestinian government.

"We are happy to work with any government if that government is prepared to work by peaceful means," said European External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/middle_east/4649606.stm

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

mauzip

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I know Hamas gives away a lot of money for charity, but it's still a terrorist organization. This goes to show how fucked up the Palestinian minds are :-X They don't want peace, they want war.
 

Don Rizzle

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do you really think israelies want peace? they could of given a palestinian state years ago but they continue to block attempts at every opportunity

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

mauzip

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do you really think israelies want peace? they could of given a palestinian state years ago but they continue to block attempts at every opportunity

At least the Israelis don't vote for a terrorist organization.
 

Don Rizzle

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hmm thats debatable

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

mauzip

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hmm thats debatable

Your neutral point of view on politics in the Middle East is debatable as well.
 

nibs

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this is just incredible.

i don't think you can even call hamas a terror group now if they are the government.

democracy is on the march!

what is even more amazing is that yasser arafat died under suspicious circumstances (poisoning/assassination???) as he was seen as an obstacle to a u.s. and israeli notion of peace.

his death is what allowed this transition to take place.  would hamas have defeated fateh with arafat at the helm???

« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 08:12:00 AM by nibs »
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I TO DA GEEZY

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they could of given a palestinian state years ago but they continue to block attempts at every opportunity

Really?.... And didn't Israel agree to a Palestinian state, with a much larger territory than they have nowadays, back in 47- Partition Plan. Why would you choose to disregard this, one wonders. They chose not to have a state when they had most of what today is Israel. What makes you think they want it now? If they wanted to declare a state they could've done it on the territory they possess. Certain factors in the Palestinian Authority and in the Arab World truly profit from the status-quo of the territories<That's the core of the problem.


Quote
"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity.... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel." (Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 08:54:39 AM by I TO DA GEEZY »
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

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Certain factors in the Palestinian Authority and in the Arab World truly profit from the status-quo of the territories<That's the core of the problem.


That's nothing but propaganda.  Your trying to make it sound like the Arab world wants to maintain the status quo and have the Palestinians to live in a continuous state of oppression and occupation.  Which is clearly not the truth. 
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Don Rizzle

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they could of given a palestinian state years ago but they continue to block attempts at every opportunity

Really?.... And didn't Israel agree to a Palestinian state, with a much larger territory than they have nowadays, back in 47- Partition Plan. Why would you choose to disregard this, one wonders. They chose not to have a state when they had most of what today is Israel. What makes you think they want it now? If they wanted to declare a state they could've done it on the territory they possess. Certain factors in the Palestinian Authority and in the Arab World truly profit from the status-quo of the territories<That's the core of the problem.


Quote
"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity.... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel." (Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)
israel never fully backed the partition plan and u know it or ur just a sucker for zoinist properganda

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"Arab rejection was...based on the fact that, while the population of the Jewish state was to be [only half] Jewish with the Jews owning less than 10% of the Jewish state land area, the Jews were to be established as the ruling body - a settlement which no self-respecting people would accept without protest, to say the least...The action of the United Nations conflicted with the basic principles for which the world organization was established, namely, to uphold the right of all peoples to self-determination. By denying the Palestine Arabs, who formed the two-thirds majority of the country, the right to decide for themselves, the United Nations had violated its own charter." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

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"While the Yishuv's leadership formally accepted the 1947 Partition Resolution, large sections of Israel's society - including...Ben-Gurion - were opposed to or extremely unhappy with partition and from early on viewed the war as an ideal opportunity to expand the new state's borders beyond the UN earmarked partition boundaries and at the expense of the Palestinians." Israeli historian, Benny Morris, in "Tikkun", March/April 1998.

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"In internal discussion in 1938 [David Ben-Gurion] stated that 'after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine'...In 1948, Menachem Begin declared that: 'The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

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"In December 1947, the British announced that they would withdraw from Palestine by May 15, 1948. Palestinians in Jerusalem and Jaffa called a general strike against the partition. Fighting broke out in Jerusalem's streets almost immediately...Violent incidents mushroomed into all-out war...During that fateful April of 1948, eight out of thirteen major Zionist military attacks on Palestinians occurred in the territory granted to the Arab state." "Our Roots Are Still Alive" by the People Press Palestine Book Project.

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"Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution." British author, Henry Cattan, "Palestine, The Arabs and Israel."

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"Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun, tells how 'in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive...Arabs began to flee in terror...Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter'...The Israelis now allege that the Palestine war began with the entry of the Arab armies into Palestine after 15 May 1948. But that was the second phase of the war; they overlook the massacres, expulsions and dispossessions which took place prior to that date and which necessitated Arab states' intervention." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

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"For the entire day of April 9, 1948, Irgun and LEHI soldiers carried out the slaughter in a cold and premeditated fashion...The attackers 'lined men, women and children up against the walls and shot them,'...The ruthlessness of the attack on Deir Yassin shocked Jewish and world opinion alike, drove fear and panic into the Arab population, and led to the flight of unarmed civilians from their homes all over the country." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."

Quote
"By 1948, the Jew was not only able to 'defend himself' but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, 'in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes'...Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that 'every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.'" Norman Finkelstein, "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict."
« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 10:34:26 AM by Don Rizzle »

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

Don Rizzle

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and this one smashes on your assertation which you've made many times that arab states told palestinians to leave.....

Quote
"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

I TO DA GEEZY

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Point is, Israel accepted the Partition Plan, thus accepting the existence of a territorially superior Palestinian State. I've never said it was a unanimous decision, but FACT remains it was made- it was accepted. Your speculations as for Zionists not being fully fond of the Partition Plan, despite their acceptance, can only show you their great vision of the future to come. Practically it didn't have any impact since the Partition Plan was accepted on the part of the Zionists.

You're late homie. Jamal already let me read this piece of propaganda a while back.

READ SOME FACTS NOW:

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The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the "Zionist gangs" very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile. [Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948]

And just so we're clear, you've just tried to refute a FACT with an assumption. Point is, there was some sort of communication between Palestinian Arabs and the Arab States, even if it wasn't broadcasted or cought on tape. Although the Pan-Arabic Brits were known for helping out Arab Propaganda, so it's hard to tell whether this source is even reliable.

Now as for the Arab World being interested in the status-quo. Read it again:
Quote
"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity.... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel." (Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)

Meaning: No Palestinian identity=No battle against Israel.
             Are you saying the Arab World is not interested in a threat to Israel's existence or stability?- Take off your pink glasses homie.
             Now how many wealthy Arabs do you see blowing themselves up? Does the Arab World need poverty in the territories then?
             Are the Arab States or Are they not interested in this constant threat to Israel's stability?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 11:49:45 AM by I TO DA GEEZY »
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

Noname

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I know Hamas gives away a lot of money for charity, but it's still a terrorist organization. This goes to show how fucked up the Palestinian minds are :-X They don't want peace, they want war.



How come when a palestinian killes people he is called a ''terrorist'', and when a israeli killes people its called a ''military repercussion''.

You are just brainwashed by the western media.
 

mauzip

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I know Hamas gives away a lot of money for charity, but it's still a terrorist organization. This goes to show how fucked up the Palestinian minds are :-X They don't want peace, they want war.



How come when a palestinian killes people he is called a ''terrorist'', and when a israeli killes people its called a ''military repercussion''.

You are just brainwashed by the western media.

Listen up, 16-year-old kid that has no pubic hair yet: I have never said I agree with Israel's politics.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 11:57:04 AM by Mauzip Da Gangsta »
 

I TO DA GEEZY

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I'm Israeli, so the media here is the Eastern among the Western my friend. Unlike you I have served in the Israeli Army. So when u say an Israeli soldier is a terrorist you're saying that I'm a terrorist. Thing is I'm not. I have Arab friends. I wonder how many suicide bombers and Hamas activists can claim to have Jewish friends.
Speaking of being brainwashed by the media. For 3 years I've served in the IDF. Which one of us relies more on the Media to mediate between himself and reality in Israel?
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

Noname

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I know Hamas gives away a lot of money for charity, but it's still a terrorist organization. This goes to show how fucked up the Palestinian minds are :-X They don't want peace, they want war.



How come when a palestinian killes people he is called a ''terrorist'', and when a israeli killes people its called a ''military repercussion''.

You are just brainwashed by the western media.

Listen up, 16-year-old kid with no pubic hair: I have never said I agree with Israel's politics.

LOL you callin me a 16 year old kid, but you start with the insults.
 

Noname

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I know Hamas gives away a lot of money for charity, but it's still a terrorist organization. This goes to show how fucked up the Palestinian minds are :-X They don't want peace, they want war.



How come when a palestinian killes people he is called a ''terrorist'', and when a israeli killes people its called a ''military repercussion''.

You are just brainwashed by the western media.
I have never said I agree with Israel's politics.




 Just because you disagree with israeli polictics doesnt mean you arent brainwashed. The western media labeled hamas a terrorist organization, terrorist is a word made up by america. If hamas is a terrorist organization then so is the israeli government. The way you talk about hamas and the palestinian people is enough for me to see that your are indeed brainwashed..
 

Noname

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I'm Israeli, so the media here is the Eastern among the Western my friend. Unlike you I have served in the Israeli Army. So when u say an Israeli soldier is a terrorist you're saying that I'm a terrorist. Thing is I'm not. I have Arab friends. I wonder how many suicide bombers and Hamas activists can claim to have Jewish friends.
Speaking of being brainwashed by the media. For 3 years I've served in the IDF. Which one of us relies more on the Media to mediate between himself and reality in Israel?

Well the funny thing is im not callin you a terrorist, and i dont call palestinians terrorists. I think terrorist is a stupid word. There are no terrorists. The smaller group is always called terrorist, in every conflict. Im  not sayin you are a bad person you just simply do what your ordered to do. The people who give the orders are bad people. The same with palestinians. The palestinian leaders who brainwash people to make them kill themself and other people those are bad people.
 

King Tech Quadafi

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I know Hamas gives away a lot of money for charity, but it's still a terrorist organization. This goes to show how fucked up the Palestinian minds are :-X They don't want peace, they want war.


Faggot shut the fuck up. How many times do i have to tell u to stop posting about the middle east.
"One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" was his response. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."

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The most ironic thing about this is that Israel and USA helped to create Hamas in the 80's to be a alternative to Fatah
 

Real American

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The results of this election only prove that most Muslims support terrorism. This is a disgrace.

Democracy and human rights are incompatible with Islam. They are too backwards to ever grasp those concepts. Palestinians are shit.....I support Israel 100%.
 

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Palestinians are shit

And you say you're not racist? LOLLL fucking faggot ass Polack... don't hate others just because your dick is small... it's not our fault you were born an inferior Polack.
my throat hurts, its hard to swallow, and my body feels like i got a serious ass beating.

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nibs

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The results of this election only prove that most Muslims support terrorism. This is a disgrace.

Democracy and human rights are incompatible with Islam. They are too backwards to ever grasp those concepts.

the united states department of state has cited israel for human rights violations against their arab citizens.   

i am thinking specifically of the 2004 report:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27929.htm
Quote
The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there continued to be problems with respect to its treatment of its Arab citizens. Israeli and international human rights organizations continued to report allegations that security forces tortured detainees during interrogation and that police officers beat detainees. The conditions in military detention camps and Israeli interrogation centers for Palestinian security detainees held in Israel remained poor, and did not meet international standards. Human rights groups issued complaints regarding torture, insufficient living space, and inadequate medical care for those detained in interrogation centers. During the year, the Government detained without charge thousands of persons in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. According to human rights nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) in the country, some security prisoners were sentenced on the basis of coerced confessions.

The Government did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens, who constituted approximately 20 percent of the population but did not share fully the rights and benefits provided to, and obligations imposed on, the country's Jewish citizens.

problems persist in the 2005 report:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41723.htm
Quote
The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas. Some members of the security forces abused Palestinian detainees. Conditions in some detention and interrogation facilities remained poor. During the year, the Government detained on security grounds but without charge thousands of persons in Israel. (Most were from the occupied territories and their situation is covered in the annex.) The Government did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens. The Government did not recognize marriages performed by non-Orthodox rabbis, compelling many citizens to travel abroad to marry. The Government interfered with individual privacy in some instances.

<snip>
Laws, judicial decisions, and administrative regulations prohibit torture and abuse; however, during the year, credible NGOs filed numerous complaints with the Government alleging that security forces tortured and abused Palestinian detainees. (The law regarding torture and allegations of torture of Palestinians by Israeli security officials is discussed in the annex to this report.)

<snip>
Israeli law, as interpreted by a 1999 High Court of Justice decision, prohibited torture and several interrogation techniques, such as violent shaking, holding and tying of prisoner in painful positions, shackling, sleep deprivation, covering the prisoner's head with a sack, playing loud music, and prolonged exposure to extreme temperatures, but allowed "moderate physical pressure" against detainees considered to possess information about an imminent attack. However, CATI and the Physicians for Human Rights in Israel (PHR) reported that techniques prohibited by the law were used against Palestinian detainees during interrogation and that security forces often beat Palestinians during arrest and transport. Israeli law prohibits the admission of forced confessions, but most convictions in security cases were based on confessions made before legal representation was available to defendants.

using your logic: judiasm is incompatible with human rights.  seeing as israel is a democracy, it appears that democracy is also incompatible with human rights.  not surprising, seeing as the u.s. also tortures prisoners.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 08:21:42 PM by nibs »
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I TO DA GEEZY

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So, just for the sake of the argument, if I see u hanging with terrorists, helping them out to plan and execute the murder of civilians, then I catch u....I know you've been informed as for future terrorist acts due to which people may die- How do I get the info out of you?....Any suggestion?

Democracy can't defend itself from non democratic factors otherwise. Judaism has very little to do with laws that are used against Palestinian detainees during interrogation. Puting religion into some cause and effect scheme is ridiculous- You can't conclude causality since there might always be a third (fourth, fifth and so on)  factor. I don't think Islam is what makes people terrorists. Yes there is a correlation, but correlation does not mean causality. There are many factors that lead to the winning of Hamas in the elections. Had Palestinians been Buddhist, Christian or Jewish with the rest of the circumstances remaining, I don't think the results would be any different.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 03:21:53 AM by I TO DA GEEZY »
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

nibs

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So, just for the sake of the argument, if I see u hanging with terrorists, helping them out to plan and execute the murder of civilians, then I catch u....I know you've been informed as for future terrorist acts due to which people may die- How do I get the info out of you?....Any suggestion?

sometimes you lose.  simple as that.  if you hold yourself to a higher moral standard, sometimes you lose.  if you start torturing people, you are no better than the terrorists.  you're torturing (and sometimes killing) people to save lives and for good.  terrorists kill to challenger and undo injustices.  it's pretty much the same thing.  look, it's completely valid to make the argument "we are no better than the terrorists and will not hold ourselves to a higher standard in this fight", and resort to torture and firing missiles into civillian establishments and settlements because maybe a couple terrorists are hiding there.  just acknowledge it for what it is.


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Democracy can't defend itself from non democratic factors otherwise.
Quote

hamas was just elected democratically.   hamas is clearly a democratic factor now.
democracy is not the holy grail, israel and the united states are routinely attacking and killing civillian targets in their efforts to fight the various resistance forces.  how can those affected civillians defend themselves against democracies?

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Judaism has very little to do with laws that are used against Palestinian detainees during interrogation.

israel was found to be in violation of their own laws.

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Puting religion into some cause and effect scheme is ridiculous- You can't conclude causality since there might always be a third (fourth, fifth and so on)  factor. I don't think Islam is what makes people terrorists.

i agree with you which is why i was mocking real american for making those sorts of statements; and pointing out that using his logic judaism was in the same boat with islam.  try to follow the thread.

on another note, the same arguments that are used against the followers of islam for being intolerant of other religions can easily be applied to israel as well:

The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report (see Section 1.a.) stated that the "Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory," that the Government "did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner." As a result, "serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure."
<snip>
According to a 2003 Haifa University study, a tendency existed to impose heavier prison terms to Arab citizens than to Jewish citizens. Human rights advocates claimed that Arab citizens were more likely to be convicted of murder and to have been denied bail.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41723.htm


it's very clear that, according to the u.s. state department, israel has acted in an unfair and discriminatory manner towards it's non-jewish citizens.  particularly it's arab citizens.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 08:23:52 AM by nibs »
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