Author Topic: democracy in the middle east: Hamas wins Palestinian parliamentary majority  (Read 890 times)

Noname

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I know Hamas gives away a lot of money for charity, but it's still a terrorist organization. This goes to show how fucked up the Palestinian minds are :-X They don't want peace, they want war.



How come when a palestinian killes people he is called a ''terrorist'', and when a israeli killes people its called a ''military repercussion''.

You are just brainwashed by the western media.

Listen up, 16-year-old kid with no pubic hair: I have never said I agree with Israel's politics.

LOL you callin me a 16 year old kid, but you start with the insults.
 

Noname

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I know Hamas gives away a lot of money for charity, but it's still a terrorist organization. This goes to show how fucked up the Palestinian minds are :-X They don't want peace, they want war.



How come when a palestinian killes people he is called a ''terrorist'', and when a israeli killes people its called a ''military repercussion''.

You are just brainwashed by the western media.
I have never said I agree with Israel's politics.




 Just because you disagree with israeli polictics doesnt mean you arent brainwashed. The western media labeled hamas a terrorist organization, terrorist is a word made up by america. If hamas is a terrorist organization then so is the israeli government. The way you talk about hamas and the palestinian people is enough for me to see that your are indeed brainwashed..
 

Noname

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I'm Israeli, so the media here is the Eastern among the Western my friend. Unlike you I have served in the Israeli Army. So when u say an Israeli soldier is a terrorist you're saying that I'm a terrorist. Thing is I'm not. I have Arab friends. I wonder how many suicide bombers and Hamas activists can claim to have Jewish friends.
Speaking of being brainwashed by the media. For 3 years I've served in the IDF. Which one of us relies more on the Media to mediate between himself and reality in Israel?

Well the funny thing is im not callin you a terrorist, and i dont call palestinians terrorists. I think terrorist is a stupid word. There are no terrorists. The smaller group is always called terrorist, in every conflict. Im  not sayin you are a bad person you just simply do what your ordered to do. The people who give the orders are bad people. The same with palestinians. The palestinian leaders who brainwash people to make them kill themself and other people those are bad people.
 

King Tech Quadafi

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I know Hamas gives away a lot of money for charity, but it's still a terrorist organization. This goes to show how fucked up the Palestinian minds are :-X They don't want peace, they want war.


Faggot shut the fuck up. How many times do i have to tell u to stop posting about the middle east.
"One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" was his response. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."

- Lewis Carroll
 

Capo Di Tutti I Capi

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The most ironic thing about this is that Israel and USA helped to create Hamas in the 80's to be a alternative to Fatah
 

Real American

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The results of this election only prove that most Muslims support terrorism. This is a disgrace.

Democracy and human rights are incompatible with Islam. They are too backwards to ever grasp those concepts. Palestinians are shit.....I support Israel 100%.
 

J @ M @ L

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Palestinians are shit

And you say you're not racist? LOLLL fucking faggot ass Polack... don't hate others just because your dick is small... it's not our fault you were born an inferior Polack.
my throat hurts, its hard to swallow, and my body feels like i got a serious ass beating.

LOL @ this fudgepacker
 

nibs

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The results of this election only prove that most Muslims support terrorism. This is a disgrace.

Democracy and human rights are incompatible with Islam. They are too backwards to ever grasp those concepts.

the united states department of state has cited israel for human rights violations against their arab citizens.   

i am thinking specifically of the 2004 report:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27929.htm
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The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there continued to be problems with respect to its treatment of its Arab citizens. Israeli and international human rights organizations continued to report allegations that security forces tortured detainees during interrogation and that police officers beat detainees. The conditions in military detention camps and Israeli interrogation centers for Palestinian security detainees held in Israel remained poor, and did not meet international standards. Human rights groups issued complaints regarding torture, insufficient living space, and inadequate medical care for those detained in interrogation centers. During the year, the Government detained without charge thousands of persons in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. According to human rights nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) in the country, some security prisoners were sentenced on the basis of coerced confessions.

The Government did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens, who constituted approximately 20 percent of the population but did not share fully the rights and benefits provided to, and obligations imposed on, the country's Jewish citizens.

problems persist in the 2005 report:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41723.htm
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The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas. Some members of the security forces abused Palestinian detainees. Conditions in some detention and interrogation facilities remained poor. During the year, the Government detained on security grounds but without charge thousands of persons in Israel. (Most were from the occupied territories and their situation is covered in the annex.) The Government did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens. The Government did not recognize marriages performed by non-Orthodox rabbis, compelling many citizens to travel abroad to marry. The Government interfered with individual privacy in some instances.

<snip>
Laws, judicial decisions, and administrative regulations prohibit torture and abuse; however, during the year, credible NGOs filed numerous complaints with the Government alleging that security forces tortured and abused Palestinian detainees. (The law regarding torture and allegations of torture of Palestinians by Israeli security officials is discussed in the annex to this report.)

<snip>
Israeli law, as interpreted by a 1999 High Court of Justice decision, prohibited torture and several interrogation techniques, such as violent shaking, holding and tying of prisoner in painful positions, shackling, sleep deprivation, covering the prisoner's head with a sack, playing loud music, and prolonged exposure to extreme temperatures, but allowed "moderate physical pressure" against detainees considered to possess information about an imminent attack. However, CATI and the Physicians for Human Rights in Israel (PHR) reported that techniques prohibited by the law were used against Palestinian detainees during interrogation and that security forces often beat Palestinians during arrest and transport. Israeli law prohibits the admission of forced confessions, but most convictions in security cases were based on confessions made before legal representation was available to defendants.

using your logic: judiasm is incompatible with human rights.  seeing as israel is a democracy, it appears that democracy is also incompatible with human rights.  not surprising, seeing as the u.s. also tortures prisoners.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 07:21:42 PM by nibs »
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I TO DA GEEZY

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So, just for the sake of the argument, if I see u hanging with terrorists, helping them out to plan and execute the murder of civilians, then I catch u....I know you've been informed as for future terrorist acts due to which people may die- How do I get the info out of you?....Any suggestion?

Democracy can't defend itself from non democratic factors otherwise. Judaism has very little to do with laws that are used against Palestinian detainees during interrogation. Puting religion into some cause and effect scheme is ridiculous- You can't conclude causality since there might always be a third (fourth, fifth and so on)  factor. I don't think Islam is what makes people terrorists. Yes there is a correlation, but correlation does not mean causality. There are many factors that lead to the winning of Hamas in the elections. Had Palestinians been Buddhist, Christian or Jewish with the rest of the circumstances remaining, I don't think the results would be any different.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 02:21:53 AM by I TO DA GEEZY »
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

nibs

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So, just for the sake of the argument, if I see u hanging with terrorists, helping them out to plan and execute the murder of civilians, then I catch u....I know you've been informed as for future terrorist acts due to which people may die- How do I get the info out of you?....Any suggestion?

sometimes you lose.  simple as that.  if you hold yourself to a higher moral standard, sometimes you lose.  if you start torturing people, you are no better than the terrorists.  you're torturing (and sometimes killing) people to save lives and for good.  terrorists kill to challenger and undo injustices.  it's pretty much the same thing.  look, it's completely valid to make the argument "we are no better than the terrorists and will not hold ourselves to a higher standard in this fight", and resort to torture and firing missiles into civillian establishments and settlements because maybe a couple terrorists are hiding there.  just acknowledge it for what it is.


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Democracy can't defend itself from non democratic factors otherwise.
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hamas was just elected democratically.   hamas is clearly a democratic factor now.
democracy is not the holy grail, israel and the united states are routinely attacking and killing civillian targets in their efforts to fight the various resistance forces.  how can those affected civillians defend themselves against democracies?

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Judaism has very little to do with laws that are used against Palestinian detainees during interrogation.

israel was found to be in violation of their own laws.

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Puting religion into some cause and effect scheme is ridiculous- You can't conclude causality since there might always be a third (fourth, fifth and so on)  factor. I don't think Islam is what makes people terrorists.

i agree with you which is why i was mocking real american for making those sorts of statements; and pointing out that using his logic judaism was in the same boat with islam.  try to follow the thread.

on another note, the same arguments that are used against the followers of islam for being intolerant of other religions can easily be applied to israel as well:

The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report (see Section 1.a.) stated that the "Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory," that the Government "did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner." As a result, "serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure."
<snip>
According to a 2003 Haifa University study, a tendency existed to impose heavier prison terms to Arab citizens than to Jewish citizens. Human rights advocates claimed that Arab citizens were more likely to be convicted of murder and to have been denied bail.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41723.htm


it's very clear that, according to the u.s. state department, israel has acted in an unfair and discriminatory manner towards it's non-jewish citizens.  particularly it's arab citizens.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 07:23:52 AM by nibs »
"a four letter word is going out to every single enemy" - kam
 

Don Rizzle

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Point is, Israel accepted the Partition Plan, thus accepting the existence of a territorially superior Palestinian State. I've never said it was a unanimous decision, but FACT remains it was made- it was accepted. Your speculations as for Zionists not being fully fond of the Partition Plan, despite their acceptance, can only show you their great vision of the future to come. Practically it didn't have any impact since the Partition Plan was accepted on the part of the Zionists.

You're late homie. Jamal already let me read this piece of propaganda a while back.

READ SOME FACTS NOW:

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The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the "Zionist gangs" very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile. [Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948]

And just so we're clear, you've just tried to refute a FACT with an assumption. Point is, there was some sort of communication between Palestinian Arabs and the Arab States, even if it wasn't broadcasted or cought on tape. Although the Pan-Arabic Brits were known for helping out Arab Propaganda, so it's hard to tell whether this source is even reliable.

Now as for the Arab World being interested in the status-quo. Read it again:
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"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity.... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel." (Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)

Meaning: No Palestinian identity=No battle against Israel.
             Are you saying the Arab World is not interested in a threat to Israel's existence or stability?- Take off your pink glasses homie.
             Now how many wealthy Arabs do you see blowing themselves up? Does the Arab World need poverty in the territories then?
             Are the Arab States or Are they not interested in this constant threat to Israel's stability?

the point is they accepted it, but they never intended to stick to it and history has proved that and no sane person can deny that without lying.

the arabs said they would crush the zoinists and give back the land to the palestinians no one has ever disputed that, and let me be clear it was their land and zoinist forced them out of their reserved terrotory, arab armies were coming to their defense.

you've just tried to say there was communication, other than what was broadcasted telling them to stay put, that told them to leave and claimed it as a fact but don't have any source to back it up! who is the one who fell victim to properganda?

Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese are all part of the 'arab nation' if u will, but it doesn't stop them laying claim to their own land in palestine, israel stole it, so its right they fight israel to get it back.

israel has never treated arabs as equal, they have never given them the rights they deserve in their own home....they have imprisoned them, they have tortured them, they have killed them, they have raped them, they've demolished homes and entire villages, cut water supplies, bulldozed farms, restricted their movements, left hundred of thousands of refugees to their own devices with no right to return etc. and u wonder why they aren't happy with israel....open ur fucking eyes!

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

I TO DA GEEZY

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Don if this is not a valid source I don't know what is:

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The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the "Zionist gangs" very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile. [Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948]

Meaning: The problem was created by the Arab States. Had they not coerced Palestinian Arabs to leave, Had their statehood been proclaimed according to the partition plan- the Palestinians would have a state. Removal of Palestinian Arabs from their land is what the Arab States initiated, not Zionists.


NIBS...I aksed you one simple thing. You're trying to prevent innocent people from dieing, you know for a fact the person that is sitting in front of you knowes when and where the next suicide bomber is going to hit...now how would u get that info out of him?

I understand the moral questions it raises that's why I aksed you as for a better way to prevent a terrorist attack. Nevertheless, I don't think a terrorist comes to correct injustices. I think a terrorist serves the needs of particular power seeking political entities.

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"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity.... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes.The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel. " (Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)











We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

Don Rizzle

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Don if this is not a valid source I don't know what is:

Quote
The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the "Zionist gangs" very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile. [Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948]

Meaning: The problem was created by the Arab States. Had they not coerced Palestinian Arabs to leave, Had their statehood been proclaimed according to the partition plan- the Palestinians would have a state. Removal of Palestinian Arabs from their land is what the Arab States initiated, not Zionists.
There is nothing in that quote telling them to leave, all it says is arab armies would fight the zoinist aggression on their behalf so they could return from exile, saying arab states told palestinians to leave a lie and you have no proof to back that up, however there is proof to show that zoinists forced arabs from their land

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

nibs

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nibs...I aksed you one simple thing. You're trying to prevent innocent people from dying, you know for a fact the person that is sitting in front of you knows when and where the next suicide bomber is going to hit...now how would u get that info out of him?

israel and the u.s. have already answered that question for us.  

do you admit that democracies don't necessarily respect human rights?  that is the issue.

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Nevertheless, I don't think a terrorist comes to correct injustices. I think a terrorist serves the needs of particular power seeking political entities.

i correlate terrorists with the military.  a terrorist is a soldier for a weaker entity.   i agree with you that soldiers serve the needs of the power that controls them.

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I understand the moral questions it raises that's why I asked you for a better way to prevent a terrorist attack.

if i'm the u.s. and i want to prevent terrorists i would:
a) cease the unilateral support of the state of israel
b) cease supporting corrupt regimes in the middle east (like saudi arabia)
c) cease being a tool of multinational corporations; abandoning policies that exist to support their interests in the middle east, latin & south america, africa and around the globe in general.  

but hey, if the u.s. is going to continue along the path it has charted out for itself, maybe torture is the way to go.  it's been argued in this thread that the u.s. needs false confessions procured via torture to help justify their war on terror.  i can't think of a better way to convince an innocent man to admit to a crime they did not commit than torture...
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I TO DA GEEZY

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A terrorist serves the needs of a very small group of people. An army serves the survival of a nation or of a country. Both are militant structures but there is a distinction: Survival of the Nation- the terrorist doesn't stand for the survival of his nation( in this case a nation was made up to camouflage terrorism under a pseudo-moral ideal) but for the destruction of another. There is nothing in IDF's moral code that calls for murder of civilians. Terrorist ideology strives for the murder of civilians.


Don,

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Their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the "Zionist gangs" very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile. [Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948]
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?