Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

So your gonna play games with the less advantaged by playing on their waeknesses so they'll beilive your religon/views of life? Either way you shouldn't say " white people were created by an evil scientist" unless you mean it, beacuse that's the same attitude behind the rascism African-Americans have encoutered over the the past 400 years.

You can sit here and second guess the teachings of Fard Muhammad if you like, but the bottom line is, you ain't out on the front lines, deep in the city trying to raise up a people who had been seperated from their continent, culture, way of life, and forced into slavery. 

What I was trying to explain is that I believe Fard Muhammad also didn't believe that white people were created by an evil scientist, but I think that out of his concern for black people living in oppression, he said certain things to reach them and get through to them, and then later they have steered the focus away from such teachings.

[Eihtball]

Now that probably doesn't mean anything to all of you, but there are people out there who do care for the disenfranchised.

Homie, I hardly think it's appropriate for a white man who (presumably) grew up middle class and whose sole connection with the black community is through Islam and hip-hop to lecture ME, of all people, on "caring for the disenfranchised".  The "disenfranchised" were the kinda people I grew up with...can you say the same?

As I've said in other threads, I've been down that road before in my life, thinking of Farrakhan as a personal hero and thinking of white people as "devils".  That was when I was an angry and rebellious young brother, but I done changed since.  So yeah, I care a lot about cats that grew up the same way I did (or worse) and want to change, but that doesn't mean I'd tell them to join the NOI and keep living in ignorance.  The AMM, sure, but not the NOI.

What I was trying to explain is that I believe Fard Muhammad also didn't believe that white people were created by an evil scientist, but I think that out of his concern for black people living in oppression, he said certain things to reach them and get through to them, and then later they have steered the focus away from such teachings.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said before: Farrakhan is good at telling people what they want to hear...in other words, preying on their ignorance.  And he's also been smart to align himself with entertainers that disenfranchised youth will listen to.  Either way, that doesn't excuse what he does.  And I can acknowledge that yeah, the NOI has had some positive impact on black communities.  I just don't like the way they're doing it.  The AMM has reached a lot of brothers, too (more than the NOI these days, in fact) in the black communities and in prison, without making references to devils and Yakub and shit like that.

As an orthodox Muslim, you should be deeply disturbed and offended by the NOI's separatist doctrine, which undermines the very prospect of universalism on which Islam was founded.  There's a very good reason that the majority of your fellow Muslims call the NOI's beliefs "Farrakhanism".  I think you need to just stop listening to Ice Cube and PE so much.

[nibs]

Didn't Elijah believe that he himself was the prophet? All the Muslims I know (and I know a lot) have no respect or regard for him and say he would not be welcome by Orthdox Muslims or allowed to enter Mecca. Is this true?

this is their argument:
the qu'ran says two things.  
a) god sends a different messenger to all people
b) muhammad is the final messenger.

they interpret that last statement as relative to the arabs.  muhammad is the last messenger for the arab's, thus the qu'ran was delivered in arabic ot the arab people.  this leaves the possibility of other people getting their own messenger after muhammad.   surely orthodox muslims would find this as heresy.

farrakhan opens his speech here by referring to elijah mohammad as a prophet, and farad mohammad as god.

didn't farrakkhan say he believed that white people were created by an evil scientist?

that early noi doctrine was in many ways a response to nazi germany's concept of the aryan race being a master race, and also the interest in eugenics at the time.  remember, it was nazi germany that claimed that the blonde haired, blue-eyed aryans were superior to all other races.  the noi responded with the claim that actually the aryan race was inferior and evil...etc.  taken in context, there was alot of debate about race, eugenics, and racial superiority.  the noi was making a counter argument; and the noi doctrine is really the only doctrine that has persisted to the present day.  this was not a completely frivilous debate;  it had been pervasive within the scientific community as well.

  

[Eihtball]

that early noi doctrine was in many ways a response to nazi germany's concept of the aryan race being a master race

What's really interesting is that Elijah Muhammad once invited George Lincoln Rockwell, the founder of the American Nazy Party, to lecture at an NOI meeting.

[nibs]

I honestly don't believe Farrakhan has changed a whole lot.  When I read Malcolm X's speech after he came back from the Hajj, I could tell the brother was genuine and had completely changed his outlook.  But Farrakhan...dude has always struck me as being particularly good at telling people what they want to hear, and I remember how I used to buy into what he said myself.  But the thing is, he's most definitely all about business, and by the 80s', the AMM was stealing away a lot of the NOI's power and influence.  If anything, I think he's simply toned down the "blue-eyed devil" rhetoric because he realized that being public about it was bad for the NOI's image and lessened their chances of successful recruiting.  I have yet to meet one NOI member who didn't still hold those views, even today.

malcolm x left the noi.  it was easy for him to completely renounce those beliefs.  louis farrakhan restarted the noi to get back to the teachings of elijah mohammad.  although he has toned down the message, it would be difficult for him to completely abandon the original message; it would be abandoning the very reason he restarted the noi.  thus his statements have to be more calculated.

BTW, MC Ren is no longer in the NOI.

that's interesting.  i guess not surprising as the noi message has been toned down in his lyrics for a while now.

What's really interesting is that Elijah Muhammad once invited George Lincoln Rockwell, the founder of the American Nazy Party, to lecture at an NOI meeting.

without question there is a history of anti-semitism within the noi.  all i'm saying is farrakhan has tried to abandon that message.

[nibs]

As I've said in other threads, I've been down that road before in my life, thinking of Farrakhan as a personal hero and thinking of white people as "devils".  That was when I was an angry and rebellious young brother, but I done changed since.

what about farrakhan's message of self-reliance and self-discipline?  if you look at the speech originally linked, he's saying alot of good, positive things that i think you would agree with.  it's only the history of the noi that you are disagreeing with, not what he is saying now.

As an orthodox Muslim, you should be deeply disturbed and offended by the NOI's separatist doctrine, which undermines the very prospect of universalism on which Islam was founded.

universalism...islam certainly accepts christianity and judiasm.  the qu'ran does say to fight against oppression and to be wary of the motives of non-believers that don't respect and preserve peace with the believers.  so the universalism seems to apply mainly to true believers of other faiths;  but not necessarily to oppressed people and their oppressors.  the separatism has evolved into this principle of blacks taking responsibility for their community, supporting black businesses...etc.  farrakhan has always embraced christianity; he used to be criticized for preaching more from the bible than the qu'ran.  he spoke very graciously in this speech here of true judiasm.

you are criticizing old doctrine.

[Eihtball]

malcolm x left the noi.  it was easy for him to completely renounce those beliefs.  louis farrakhan restarted the noi to get back to the teachings of elijah mohammad.  although he has toned down the message, it would be difficult for him to completely abandon the original message; it would be abandoning the very reason he restarted the noi.  thus his statements have to be more calculated.

The fact that he even restarted the NOI in the first place seems wrong.  Why not just follow W.D. Mohammed and support the AMM?

without question there is a history of anti-semitism within the noi.  all i'm saying is farrakhan has tried to abandon that message.

Doesn't mean he's sincere necesarily.

what about farrakhan's message of self-reliance and self-discipline?  if you look at the speech originally linked, he's saying alot of good, positive things that i think you would agree with.  it's only the history of the noi that you are disagreeing with, not what he is saying now.

Like I have said, I can admire that the NOI has done good, but I don't like the way they're doing it.

you are criticizing old doctrine.

I simply don't believe that doctrine isn't heavily instilled in NOI members to this day.  Every muh'fucka I've ever met who's NOI is still very much anti-white/anti-Semitic/separatist in the most literal way imaginable, not in a metaphorical context as you and Infinite are trying to place it.

[nibs]

The fact that he even restarted the NOI in the first place seems wrong.  Why not just follow W.D. Mohammed and support the AMM?

it's my understanding that the amm simply decided to embrace orthodox islam.  the noi had more than a religious message, it had a political message that the amm probably would have stifled.  it's hard to maintain a political agenda that revolves around black empowerment and at the same time supporting an all inclusive religious agenda.  farrakhan now has allied and tries  tomore closely associates the noi with the larger muslim world, but at the same time the noi preserves it's agenda of black empowerment.

I simply don't believe that doctrine isn't heavily instilled in NOI members to this day.  Every muh'fucka I've ever met who's NOI is still very much anti-white/anti-Semitic/separatist in the most literal way imaginable, not in a metaphorical context as you and Infinite are trying to place it.

let's take a step back.  the noi message is largely focused on black empowerment, and uplifting the black community.  i think we can agree that there is a level of inequality between the black community and the larger american community as a whole.  because the noi is focused on empowering the black community, there is that sense of neglecting the larger community as a whole.  it's not possible to focus on a sub-group without ignoring the larger community to an extent.  additionally, the noi believes that the u.s. government continues to be biased against blacks in many ways, and against the muslim world as well.  thus it calls for a rejection of american values & policies in many way.  "america is unjust".

do you agree with the noi's assessment of american policies and agenda's?  do you agree with the noi's desire for black empowerment?

what black leaders do you feel have a better message and do a better job to realize these goals?   i'd say there are few if any with the same level of visibility as farrakhan. 

[virtuoso]

Always good to read the views of you people, Nibs I didnt realise that Kambau wasnt a part of the NOI, so I will take your word on that one and renounce what I said. I agree with eighball though he seems to be just playing a game of window dressing, reveal the veil and there is a monster that lurks beneath. I would like to be proved wrong though because like I have already mentioned on many issues he does seem to be on the ball, but I liken his message to that of wild berries looks good smells good but the taste can kill you. Its his idealogy which I find disturbing perhaps not disturbing in the sense that he can orchestrate a genocide, as I believe most black people at least those with some kind of sense realise they are in a melting pot along with many whites and as such its the government and its bankrollers who are the enemy.

[Teddy Roosevelt]

So your gonna play games with the less advantaged by playing on their waeknesses so they'll beilive your religon/views of life? Either way you shouldn't say " white people were created by an evil scientist" unless you mean it, beacuse that's the same attitude behind the rascism African-Americans have encoutered over the the past 400 years.

You can sit here and second guess the teachings of Fard Muhammad if you like, but the bottom line is, you ain't out on the front lines, deep in the city trying to raise up a people who had been seperated from their continent, culture, way of life, and forced into slavery.

What I was trying to explain is that I believe Fard Muhammad also didn't believe that white people were created by an evil scientist, but I think that out of his concern for black people living in oppression, he said certain things to reach them and get through to them, and then later they have steered the focus away from such teachings.

Don't even sit there and act like you were. So you can;t even make that arguement. Like Eihtball said he's "preying on their ignorance" and just taking advanage of there unfortunate situation to recruit members to the NOI.

[Crown]

Many comments were said, I think it's been a beneficial discussion on both ends, props to Nibs for actually listening to the audio and also for providing us with useful insight and info.  I can't copy and paste everything so let me just comment on a few things that immediately come to mind.

-I wouldn't look at it so much as virtuoso said, as Farakhan "changing".  Rather, I think he is a man who is sincerely and deeply concerned with the plight of black people.  He is sincerely motivated towards uplifting oppressed people all over the world, and he is clearly very angry at imperialist perpetrated by America, Isreal, and Britian.  With that being said, he has many followers, he is looked upon as a spiritual leader of thousands of black men.  He takes this job very seriously.  He cares deeply for his followers.  It has been reported in different accounts, that when presented with the orthodox Islam question, Fard, Elijah, and Farakhan have held the mindset that their people "weren't quite ready for it yet" or that "they needed to be cleaned up" first, or that "there first has to be black unity before their can be any black/white unity."

...in other words, to make a long story short.  I don't think that Fard, Elijah, or Farakhan have changed their beliefs, I think it is more that they tend to give their followers what they are ready and prepared for.  As Elijah said once, "feed the babies milk, not meat."  In other words, what he is saying is these men just came into Islam from lives that many times have been very rough, and they are trying to feed their followers knowledge; piecemeal, slowly but surely developing their minds and their spirits.  Somehow, deep down I do believe that the ultimate goal and intent is for them to be unified with Muslims all over the world.

-Also, somebody on here tried to claim that Farakhan wanted to commit genocide against white people or something like that.  This is totally false.  He has told his followers that when they (non-white people) come to power, they don't want to be like the Jews and do the same thing to somebody else that they had done to them (meaning Jews persecuted by Hitler then persecuting the Palestinians.)

Peace!

[nibs]

most black people at least those with some kind of sense realise they are in a melting pot along with many whites and as such its the government and its bankrollers who are the enemy.

the noi message has been around since the 30's and 40's.  it predates the civil rights movement.  it's dealing with segregation/jim crow/lynchings.  segregation in the u.s., germany trying to create a master race in europe, apartheid in south africa...it was a doctrine born in that environment.

white people no longer openly claim to be superior to blacks.  you and eihtball suggest that farrakhan is secretly a racist that is looking for an opportunity to espouse those views.  i suggest that the noi used black superiority as a tool for expanding their message in the environment of the times.  a tool which is no longer necessary and farrakhan has abandoned.

I believe most black people at least those with some kind of sense realise they are in a melting pot along with many whites and as such its the government and its bankrollers who are the enemy.

the problem with that notion is that america is supposed to be a democracy; so the government must reflect the majority of the population to some extent.  when looked at in context not only did the legislative branch of the government fail the black community during the civil rights era and earlier, but when the courts stepped in to right some of the wrongs you had protests & riots.  federal troops needing to be called in to stop the rioting.  in the context of of the period when that doctrine was developed, i don't think it's fair to only blame the government and not the people themselves.

[virtuoso]

This was taken from a 1997 interview he held with meet the press, this is a major public u turn by him
TR: Elijah Muhammad also said that whites are blue-eyed devils. Do you believe that?

MLF: Well, you have not been saints in the way you have acted toward the darker peoples of the world and toward even your own people. But, in truth, Mr. Russert, any human being who gives themself over to the doing of evil could be considered a devil. In the Bible, in the Book of Revelation, it talks about the fall of Babylon. It says Babylon is fallen because she has become the habitation of devils. We believe that that ancient Babylon is a symbol of a modern Babylon which is America. America has become a land of people who want to do their own thing, and their own thing is in direct contravention and rebellion against the will of God, which makes any rebel against God an agent of Satan.

I am reading a much more recent interview with him and they are trying o ridicule him for saying jews control the media and the entertainment industry, lol jesus how dumb is anyone who would actually disagree that this isnt true 
 The country, as you know, is riveted this weekend by the extraordinary spectacle of Tiger Woods, this 21-year-old Black man, who is s
setting a course on a once-segregated golf course in Georgia; that has won the admiration, apparently, of all of his fellow professionals, most of them white, of course. Do you think that he is somehow in the control of a group of Jews or other people, or what does that represent to you? I am laughing at the desperation of that question.

Btw I hear what you are saying Nibs but I dont know about that I mean I can only go on what I hear him say and what I have read him say but I will acknowledge that a lot of his public views at least in the last decadeish have been geared towards despising america being controlled by jews, he hasnt spouted pure hate for jews per sa in that time or at least i dont think he has.

[virtuoso]

Another thing which I should have mentioned before which once again highlights so called pro black agenda is his unwavering support for the dictatorship in zimbabwe. Its amazing that if a black government is so called anti west then he embraces them despite their sickening crimes. He supports land being stolen from white zimbabweans, now however you try and paint this firstly a lot of white zimbabweans are third or fourth generation and have as much right to call themselves zimbabwean as anyone else, the farmers bought and paid for the land and now are told that you must leave this land or we will come and kill you, and in fact these so called war veterians who in actuality are mostly hired government thugs are doing just that. White people can't get jobs there anymore with the letters under the advertisements reading AA. Then there is the so called radio of zimbabwe which consists of regular bulletins which can only be described as hate speeches where mugabe is telling the white people to leave this land, they are being ethnically cleansed from a land which as I said is theirs.

Now history and the makeup of Zimbabwe tells us that the ruling party the Zanu PF are zulu, now its fact that Zulus arent the indigenous population of zimbabwe, the indigenous bushmen are in fact extremely marginalised, and live a very squalid life and yet still the propoganda is pushed that your white you dont belong here. So I think this underlines the racism that Farrakhan posesses. Then lets look at the aftermath of this land grabbing policy, the crops have all but stopped being produced and the reason? the land far from being given to poor black people is actually being divided into a cronyist policy whereby the police get their plots of land ministers theirs secret police theirs of course, these people have no intention of growing crops the land is to them just a status symbol. Keep in mind that this isnt some revelation and that farrakhan must therefore know all about what is going down after all as the conference and speech has underlined he is a very knowledgeable person, yet despite knowing he chooses to praise the government because its attacking white people.

This is a man who sees Thabo Mbeki as a great person even though the ANC was and always will be a communist party, there is nothing friendly honest or decent about these people. I remember reading an interview with an ANC politician who said they have no intention of tainting mandelas legacy but once he passes the white man is going to get it. I see television interviews where the ANC are fervently defending affirmative action and described the situation in which large swathes of the white population there that now cant get a job as necessary to readdress the balance. Seriously anyone who thinks this policy is ever going to change must also believe the moon is made from cheese, they are going to ethnically white people from that land whether they drive them out through degridation intimidation or massacre them.

So we have a man (farrakhan) who is all about his people empowering black people, even in the speech he refers to americans and our people as seperate, a man who embraces corrupt and wicked black leadership when those leaders oppress white people. 

[Dubz]

i only listend to like 7 minutes, and Farr. was dropping bombs. thanks for the video.