Farrakhan drops ether on Bush, you must hear this...

[Shallow]

1.) What facts? We're talking about religion and faith. If anything we discuss is factual then there would be a lot less athiests around. There aren't even any "facts" that show if Jesus even existed. Which is why some argue he was a fictional creation.

2.) I wasn't talking just about the Quran. I was using the basic idea of God as someone who can do anything and and everything using simple logic it is safe to assume that he could create an equal. There is nothing that states he can't so I say he can, but we agree on this because I also would say there is no proof that he can.


3.) I didn't think Jehovah's Witnesses considered themselves Christian.


4.) If the Trinity is something made up by Paul to recruit gentiles and Jesus never said he was God then why did the Jewish leaders turn on him and reject him? Or was that made up by Paul too. There has to be a reason why they rejected him. Let's look at it from an early Christian perspective who supposedly beleved in him as a prophet who never claimed to be God; wouldn't they wonder why he was crucified. Even if you believe it was only because he was creating a movement the Romans didn't like and they decided to crucify him (which in itself doesn't make sense to me since he Jesus actually told people to pay their taxes), it doesn't explain why the Jews would turn away from him and his teachings.

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

Yeah, that's exactly what I said before: Farrakhan is good at telling people what they want to hear...in other words, preying on their ignorance.  And he's also been smart to align himself with entertainers that disenfranchised youth will listen to.  Either way, that doesn't excuse what he does.  And I can acknowledge that yeah, the NOI has had some positive impact on black communities.  I just don't like the way they're doing it.  The AMM has reached a lot of brothers, too (more than the NOI these days, in fact) in the black communities and in prison, without making references to devils and Yakub and shit like that.

As an orthodox Muslim, you should be deeply disturbed and offended by the NOI's separatist doctrine, which undermines the very prospect of universalism on which Islam was founded.  There's a very good reason that the majority of your fellow Muslims call the NOI's beliefs "Farrakhanism".  I think you need to just stop listening to Ice Cube and PE so much.

Let me make another attempt at explaining myself.

-The Nation of Islam has served as a bridge for so many people towards true Islam, including some of the best American Muslims like Malcolm X aka El-Hajj Malik Shabazz.  The Nation of Islam also influenced me towards Islam when I was growing up.  People don't realize how many white people actually benefit from the teachings of the Nation of Islam.  Does this sound strange?  It shouldn't.  Because white people have also gone through the similar conditioning that black people have gone through.  White people are also plaqued with a substance abuse, media manipulation, and a loss of identity; which are issues the Nation of Islam focuses upon.  The government, the capatalist system, and other media forces want to control the thinking of the masses.  They use fear and other dirty tactics to control the population.  When you can control a person, he is easier to sell too.  You'll know what he does before he does it.  Governments, for centuries have been interested in controlling the masses and keeping them ignorant. 

There are 100's of examples but let me give you one simple example to illustrate what I'm saying.  Alcohol.  Now, when Elijah Muhammad encountered a drunk, he would tell them that it isn't the black man who brought liquor to America (as a means of removing some of the giult) and then follow that up pointing out that the white man owns the liquor companies.   So in other words, whether you are white or black you can benefit from these teachings.  How?  Because you begin to realize that their are people who have a vested, economic interest in keeping you ignorant and drunk.  There are people out there who's livelihood's depend on people staying drunk.  And you know what else, their profits actually go up in times of depression.  People drink more when they are depressed.

Now... as for me being an orthodox Muslim you think I should be outraged about them saying that Fard Muhammad is what Christians know as the Savior or Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Well, that makes sense to them.  Because if your a black man lost in the wilderness of America, crawling around in the gutter of all types of ignorance, and some man comes to your people and raises you up and makes you feel like a human being again, then ofcourse your going to identify that man as being your savior.  Why wouldn't you?

Next point.  Fard never said he was God, Jesus, or the Savoir.  This is something Elijah started teaching after Fard had left.  The Nation is slowly moving away from those teachings. 

Last point.  Notice they say that Fard is what Christians know as the second coming of Jesus; and what Muslims know as the Mehdi.  So therefore, they are only explaining it in language Christians can understand, but for Muslims he only represents a man, a human, not a savior or a God.  Just a man, known as the Mehdi, a figure in some Muslim traditions who comes and gives victory to the Muslims at the end of times.

Understand where I'm coming from yet?

[nibs]

1.) What facts? We're talking about religion and faith.

there are facts.  what the various doctrines state are matters of fact.  how those dotrines have been changed and reinterpretted are also maters of fact.

3.) I didn't think Jehovah's Witnesses considered themselves Christian.

they do.  they think extremely highly of christ.  the equate christ to the highest of god's angels.  they consider him to be a greater being than humans, whose teachings and life should be studied and emulated.  but not worshipped as he was not god.

4.) If the Trinity is something made up by Paul to recruit gentiles and Jesus never said he was God then why did the Jewish leaders turn on him and reject him? Or was that made up by Paul too. There has to be a reason why they rejected him.  Let's look at it from an early Christian perspective who supposedly beleved in him as a prophet who never claimed to be God; wouldn't they wonder why he was crucified.

jesus claimed to be the messiah; which his followers accepted.  a large part of the jewish community expected their messiah to be a king who would lead the jews/israelites in overthrowing and defeating their enemies and reestablishing that israeli kingdom; as had been done in the past.  jesus teachings in that manner contradicted their interpretation of prophesies and their expectations of what a messiah should be.  thus they called him a blasphemer and rejected him. 

[Shallow]

What about the facts was it cannot be proven if the information in them is factual and you also cannot prove how they have been changed. Facts for me involve proof. Faith does not involve proof.


I know that Jehovahs Witnesses look highly upon Jesus I just didn't think if you were to ask one "are you a Christian?" they they would answer yes. I'll have to ask some and find out.


For the Jews to turn on Jesus just because he had different plans on what the Messiah was supposed to do doesn't say to me that they wanted him dead and it doesn't show blashpemy. Of course most Jews may claim he didn't claim that, but they also claim they had nothing to do with the crucifixion. So right there we have two very different views about something that historical may not have happened. There is no fact, just faith.

[Crown]

Another thing which I should have mentioned before which once again highlights so called pro black agenda is his unwavering support for the dictatorship in zimbabwe. Its amazing that if a black government is so called anti west then he embraces them despite their sickening crimes. He supports land being stolen from white zimbabweans, now however you try and paint this firstly a lot of white zimbabweans are third or fourth generation and have as much right to call themselves zimbabwean as anyone else, the farmers bought and paid for the land and now are told that you must leave this land or we will come and kill you, and in fact these so called war veterians who in actuality are mostly hired government thugs are doing just that. White people can't get jobs there anymore with the letters under the advertisements reading AA. Then there is the so called radio of zimbabwe which consists of regular bulletins which can only be described as hate speeches where mugabe is telling the white people to leave this land, they are being ethnically cleansed from a land which as I said is theirs.

Now history and the makeup of Zimbabwe tells us that the ruling party the Zanu PF are zulu, now its fact that Zulus arent the indigenous population of zimbabwe, the indigenous bushmen are in fact extremely marginalised, and live a very squalid life and yet still the propoganda is pushed that your white you dont belong here. So I think this underlines the racism that Farrakhan posesses. Then lets look at the aftermath of this land grabbing policy, the crops have all but stopped being produced and the reason? the land far from being given to poor black people is actually being divided into a cronyist policy whereby the police get their plots of land ministers theirs secret police theirs of course, these people have no intention of growing crops the land is to them just a status symbol. Keep in mind that this isnt some revelation and that farrakhan must therefore know all about what is going down after all as the conference and speech has underlined he is a very knowledgeable person, yet despite knowing he chooses to praise the government because its attacking white people.

This is a man who sees Thabo Mbeki as a great person even though the ANC was and always will be a communist party, there is nothing friendly honest or decent about these people. I remember reading an interview with an ANC politician who said they have no intention of tainting mandelas legacy but once he passes the white man is going to get it. I see television interviews where the ANC are fervently defending affirmative action and described the situation in which large swathes of the white population there that now cant get a job as necessary to readdress the balance. Seriously anyone who thinks this policy is ever going to change must also believe the moon is made from cheese, they are going to ethnically white people from that land whether they drive them out through degridation intimidation or massacre them.

So we have a man (farrakhan) who is all about his people empowering black people, even in the speech he refers to americans and our people as seperate, a man who embraces corrupt and wicked black leadership when those leaders oppress white people. 

AMERICA SUPPORTED THE FORMER APARTIED REGIME IN SOUTH AFRICA.

[virtuoso]

2 Things, what is happening now is actually worse than what occured under the apartheid and secondly regardless of that when did I ever  say i support the u.s government. What i am illustrating is simply this....people like farrakhan may seem good justly people but then like I just pointed out there is a twisted angle and motive to these people. Furthermore he tried to paint new orleans as not harming white people whatsoever, what complete bullshit. The rich areas of the city which were unscathed by the flood had the troops kicking their doors in to seize their weapons. Were talking about old people having their homes kicked in to take their weapons from them illegally. He ignores all this though and instead oh we have to empower black people the government is after black people so it just creates this illusion that white people arent being oppressed and thus angers black people when they think abut white people and how they have got it so good. In other words he just feeds on peoples ignorance.

[Crown]

2 Things, what is happening now is actually worse than what occured under the apartheid and secondly regardless of that when did I ever  say i support the u.s government. What i am illustrating is simply this....people like farrakhan may seem good justly people but then like I just pointed out there is a twisted angle and motive to these people. Furthermore he tried to paint new orleans as not harming white people whatsoever, what complete bullshit. The rich areas of the city which were unscathed by the flood had the troops kicking their doors in to seize their weapons. Were talking about old people having their homes kicked in to take their weapons from them illegally. He ignores all this though and instead oh we have to empower black people the government is after black people so it just creates this illusion that white people arent being oppressed and thus angers black people when they think abut white people and how they have got it so good. In other words he just feeds on peoples ignorance.

I have mixed feelings when it comes to both Farrakhan and Amerikka. I dont agree with the statement that what is happening now (in S.A.) being worst than aparthied. Both situations are f'd up tho.

[Crown]

1.) What facts? We're talking about religion and faith. If anything we discuss is factual then there would be a lot less athiests around. There aren't even any "facts" that show if Jesus even existed. Which is why some argue he was a fictional creation.

2.) I wasn't talking just about the Quran. I was using the basic idea of God as someone who can do anything and and everything using simple logic it is safe to assume that he could create an equal. There is nothing that states he can't so I say he can, but we agree on this because I also would say there is no proof that he can.


3.) I didn't think Jehovah's Witnesses considered themselves Christian.


4.) If the Trinity is something made up by Paul to recruit gentiles and Jesus never said he was God then why did the Jewish leaders turn on him and reject him? Or was that made up by Paul too. There has to be a reason why they rejected him. Let's look at it from an early Christian perspective who supposedly beleved in him as a prophet who never claimed to be God; wouldn't they wonder why he was crucified. Even if you believe it was only because he was creating a movement the Romans didn't like and they decided to crucify him (which in itself doesn't make sense to me since he Jesus actually told people to pay their taxes), it doesn't explain why the Jews would turn away from him and his teachings.

If you are truely interested check out the Arius debate to find out when the GOD Father/SON teaching came about, and the Council of Nice in the year 325 A.D. to find out when Christian trinitarian theology was founded. About 300 years after Jesus's and his apostles. Also called Nicean Council of 325.
Note: Constintine did not become a baptized Christian until his deathbed, but presided over one of the most important debates in the history of Christianity and most likely created this rift which manifest itself today as the Christian/Islam debate.

[Shallow]

What makes Arius anymore of an authority on what Jesus was over any Trinitarian at the time? He wasn't with Jesus at anytime since he was born over 200 years after Jesus was gone. Like I said; there is no way to prove one over the other. You just have to choose what you want to believe. Prove to me that an angel was speaking to Mohammad in the cave and he wasn't just writing it himself by taking existing texts and reworking them to suit him, or doing the bidding of those in power to create a rift. You can't, but you can choose to believe it is real, and that's fine. There is no room for proof in faith, because it then ceases to be faith.

[Crown]

What makes Arius anymore of an authority on what Jesus was over any Trinitarian at the time? He wasn't with Jesus at anytime since he was born over 200 years after Jesus was gone. Like I said; there is no way to prove one over the other. You just have to choose what you want to believe. Prove to me that an angel was speaking to Mohammad in the cave and he wasn't just writing it himself by taking existing texts and reworking them to suit him, or doing the bidding of those in power to create a rift. You can't, but you can choose to believe it is real, and that's fine. There is no room for proof in faith, because it then ceases to be faith.

I am not arguing with you I was just pointing out that the trinity was not an established christian doctrine until 325. If you choose to go along with the trinity so be it, but Constintine was a shady dude governing over these councils, and NEVER being baptized until his deathbed. Makes me doubt some of these so-called Christian "truths" that his council injected into Christianity that is foreign to judaism (b4 Christ), and Islam (after Christ). I am not a Muslim, but I agree with some things they say. I am with Jesus teaching, I just dont believe every single thing that organized religion, Jew, Christian or Islam says.

[Shallow]

What makes Arius anymore of an authority on what Jesus was over any Trinitarian at the time? He wasn't with Jesus at anytime since he was born over 200 years after Jesus was gone. Like I said; there is no way to prove one over the other. You just have to choose what you want to believe. Prove to me that an angel was speaking to Mohammad in the cave and he wasn't just writing it himself by taking existing texts and reworking them to suit him, or doing the bidding of those in power to create a rift. You can't, but you can choose to believe it is real, and that's fine. There is no room for proof in faith, because it then ceases to be faith.

I am not arguing with you I was just pointing out that the trinity was not an established christian doctrine until 325. If you choose to go along with the trinity so be it, but Constintine was a shady dude governing over these councils, and NEVER being baptized until his deathbed. Makes me doubt some of these so-called Christian "truths" that his council injected into Christianity that is foreign to judaism (b4 Christ), and Islam (after Christ). I am not a Muslim, but I agree with some things they say. I am with Jesus teaching, I just dont believe every single thing that organized religion, Jew, Christian or Islam says.

You make it sound that Constatine made up the idea of Christianity. Even some of the biggest opposers say it was brought forth by Paul. I don't defend the trinity so much as I defend the possibility of it. Too many people make it sound like it can't be a possibility. I'm more than open to the idea that it isn't. I just belive that it is. if Jesus were to return and say the Trinity is something made up then I'd believe that. I'm open to any religion being the right one, and none of them being real.