Author Topic: Reason Why Many White People Don't Accept Islam Is Similar To Why The Jews...  (Read 1880 times)

AndrE16686

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The real question is why many Arabs in the Middle East don't accept Christianity.

Oops I forgot.......if they do they are thrown in jail.

Interesting point, a little far fetched tho.

Christianity has managed to surpass racial divides, in time the world's fastest growing religion (Islam) may also.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 07:06:40 AM by YGZ »
 

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Many White people dont accept islam because they have been fed false information that it promotes evil, injustices, and violence

but who am i kidding, you all know that already  ::)

im sick of hearin bullshit from people (cwalker in particular) that islam was created & is used for improper purposes although they have never put in the time to learn or at least read on its beliefs and practices. but theres nothin i can do about it becaus they stay ignorant.

cwalker and others dont look upon the blessings of islam, but rather spend time talking about negativity and instances of prejudices against people whom they would just look down upon if they lived down the street

cwalker --- your arguments are as much convincing as bush trying to win over the THOUSANDS of protestors in new delhi today.

I WENT TO STAPLES CENTER WEN I WAS WALKING MY GOLD RAG FALL OF MY POCKET AND THE GROUND WAS WET TO AND DIRTY MY RAG GOT DIRTY A LIL BIT PULL IT IT BACK AND MAKE SURE IT WOULD NOT DROP AGAIN ROCKING MY RAG AGAIN HOMIE 8
 

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Find an insightful Islamic shiek that you relate to and he will set you straight without charge.

If by 'set u straight' u mean 'brainwash u to the point u'd wanna commit a suicide bombing' I'd have to agree.
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

Shallow

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Many White people dont accept islam because they have been fed false information that it promotes evil, injustices, and violence

but who am i kidding, you all know that already  ::)

im sick of hearin bullshit from people (cwalker in particular) that islam was created & is used for improper purposes although they have never put in the time to learn or at least read on its beliefs and practices. but theres nothin i can do about it becaus they stay ignorant.

cwalker and others dont look upon the blessings of islam, but rather spend time talking about negativity and instances of prejudices against people whom they would just look down upon if they lived down the street

cwalker --- your arguments are as much convincing as bush trying to win over the THOUSANDS of protestors in new delhi today.


Maybe the reason they don't accept it is the same reason why Muslims don't accept Christianity. They have been taught that it is wrong and that the religion they follow is right. If you're raised Christian you're more likely to lean towards Christianity and if your raised Muslim you're more likely to lean towards Islam. It's not brain surgery. If you are taught to live a ceratin way you tend to live it. If we were all taught from outr parents at a young age that it was okay and good to have same sex relationships then the amount of bi-sexuals would most likely eclipse the amount of straight people. There is a psychology involved in life.
 

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accepting christianity? are you trying to say that Islam teaches bias towards other religions (mainly christianity)?

i hope you're just tryin to say that muslims don't follow christianity becaus at a young age they are taught that islam is the right path. becaus then you might have a valid point, which i wasnt trying to argue in the first place. my statement was regarding posters that have been brainwashed into believing islam is about evil, fear, and hatred towards other which is the exact opposite of its true nature. you dont see me talking about how christianity is horrible becaus christians used to kill black people and spread hate amongst the white race. i dont follow christianity because it is my belief that Jesus Christ was/is not God, but only a prophet of God. that doesn't mean that I haven't learned about the beliefs of other religions as i've grown up, which i can say, the posters like cwalker do not.

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The real question is why many Arabs in the Middle East don't accept Christianity.

Oops I forgot.......if they do they are thrown in jail.
What an ignorant statement, if this was the case, how can you explain the 14 million or so Christian population within the Middle East ?
He always ignores these kind of statements. Cwalker where are you?
 

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The real question is why many Arabs in the Middle East don't accept Christianity.

Oops I forgot.......if they do they are thrown in jail.
What an ignorant statement, if this was the case, how can you explain the 14 million or so Christian population within the Middle East ?
He always ignores these kind of statements. Cwalker where are you?

just like he ignored my post about the three college white boys that burned down the churches wen he convinced himself a long time ago that it was done by muslims.

Cwalker ----->  :-[

I WENT TO STAPLES CENTER WEN I WAS WALKING MY GOLD RAG FALL OF MY POCKET AND THE GROUND WAS WET TO AND DIRTY MY RAG GOT DIRTY A LIL BIT PULL IT IT BACK AND MAKE SURE IT WOULD NOT DROP AGAIN ROCKING MY RAG AGAIN HOMIE 8
 

Shallow

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accepting christianity? are you trying to say that Islam teaches bias towards other religions (mainly christianity)?

i hope you're just tryin to say that muslims don't follow christianity becaus at a young age they are taught that islam is the right path. becaus then you might have a valid point, which i wasnt trying to argue in the first place. my statement was regarding posters that have been brainwashed into believing islam is about evil, fear, and hatred towards other which is the exact opposite of its true nature. you dont see me talking about how christianity is horrible becaus christians used to kill black people and spread hate amongst the white race. i dont follow christianity because it is my belief that Jesus Christ was/is not God, but only a prophet of God. that doesn't mean that I haven't learned about the beliefs of other religions as i've grown up, which i can say, the posters like cwalker do not.


While I'll always have issues with the methods of Muhammad and his followers it is hard to doubt that the main focus of Islam is peace. Most people on the board that state otherwise are probably just doing it for kicks. While you may be tolerant and not go out of your way to post Christian bashing posts, I have seen them on this board, and I'm willing to bet that all Muslim boards would have their share of jackasses who go out of their way to offend people. THere is nothing Western or Christian about being an antagonist. It's a human trait.

All I was saying was that if you are raised as a Christian and you accept Christianity then by logic you have to not accept Islam, but you must tolerate it in order to be a good Christian, and if you are raised as a Muslim and you accept Islam then by logic you cannot accept Christianity, but you must tolerate it to be a good Muslim.

You say you think Jesus was just a prophet and not of the essence of God. My guess is you were taught this your whole life, like I was taught the opposite my whole life. Or if you were taught the way I was then you probably rebelled against the Christians in your life because they were hypocritical. Like 99% of Muslims that believe Jesus is a prophet were raised to think that and the few are the converts that chose to think that. My point is simple; when you are raised a certain way you tend to stick with that way.
 

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no doubt about that Shallow. i wasnt really taught much about the teachings when i was young, my mother had taken me to a personal teacher that taught me and my siblings how to read the Qu'ran and pray. i didn't really attend sunday school because as a young kid, like most other kids, i didn't want to go to any kind of school. but as i grew up i tried to put myself into a neutral state to really decide for myself. it was hard for me to be neutral since my whole life i was taught to be muslim, and i still remember some of the things i learned as a kid, but the one that stuck out most to me was that there have never been any changes/corrections in the Qu'ran.

things like Jesus couldn't of been God, why would God go to the bathroom?, and various things like that i tried to steer away from in my personal quest. it was when i was reading the Qu'ran and actually started to understand its beliefs that I felt in my heart it was the true religion of mankind. many of times when i have debated with my friends about religion (some jewish, some catholic, some christian) i have expressed to them that I believe Islam is the perfection of Judaism and Christianity. i tell them that i dont see it as different religions, but as one that was perfected over time. but that argument goes only so far, and i respect their views, altho i know they don't know much about theirs/mine/other religions, like most people i encounter.

they accept what they were taught as kids, stick with that view and don't actually try to understand it for themselves. which i believe was your original point, i jus thought i would share a piece of my experiences. i would be interested if you feel like sharing some of ur experiences, but you don't have to. i just think it's interesting when people share a part of their lives.

I WENT TO STAPLES CENTER WEN I WAS WALKING MY GOLD RAG FALL OF MY POCKET AND THE GROUND WAS WET TO AND DIRTY MY RAG GOT DIRTY A LIL BIT PULL IT IT BACK AND MAKE SURE IT WOULD NOT DROP AGAIN ROCKING MY RAG AGAIN HOMIE 8
 

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no doubt about that Shallow. i wasnt really taught much about the teachings when i was young, my mother had taken me to a personal teacher that taught me and my siblings how to read the Qu'ran and pray. i didn't really attend sunday school because as a young kid, like most other kids, i didn't want to go to any kind of school. but as i grew up i tried to put myself into a neutral state to really decide for myself. it was hard for me to be neutral since my whole life i was taught to be muslim, and i still remember some of the things i learned as a kid, but the one that stuck out most to me was that there have never been any changes/corrections in the Qu'ran.

things like Jesus couldn't of been God, why would God go to the bathroom?, and various things like that i tried to steer away from in my personal quest. it was when i was reading the Qu'ran and actually started to understand its beliefs that I felt in my heart it was the true religion of mankind. many of times when i have debated with my friends about religion (some jewish, some catholic, some christian) i have expressed to them that I believe Islam is the perfection of Judaism and Christianity. i tell them that i dont see it as different religions, but as one that was perfected over time. but that argument goes only so far, and i respect their views, altho i know they don't know much about theirs/mine/other religions, like most people i encounter.

they accept what they were taught as kids, stick with that view and don't actually try to understand it for themselves. which i believe was your original point, i jus thought i would share a piece of my experiences. i would be interested if you feel like sharing some of ur experiences, but you don't have to. i just think it's interesting when people share a part of their lives.


See now my life and your life in that regard are exactly the same except while you were taught Islam as a kid and then chose it for your self later in life I was taught Christianity as a kid and chose it for my self later in life. We had slightly different reasons; you had your views on whether God can be man and that the Quran was never changed, and I had mine on whether God's prophet would have to pick up arms and fight oppressors when a prophet like Moses had God coming in and dealing with it for him. I guess I couldn't, or refused to, accept a Prophet of God having to engage in violent battles to maintain the word of peace. I also saw no error in anything written in the Gospel, as far as my moral stance go. Everything in the Bible that condemns certain lifestyles come from outside the Bible and it is the black and white issues that Jesus touches on in the Gospel. I always argued htat if the church changed the Bible to duit themselves then why wouldn't they change it so they don't contradict it. Of course all that is meaningless when compared to the feeling I got upon reading the Gospel for the first time in a serious way. I was 19 going on 20 and I just picked it up one day and started reading. I felt something, a presence enter me and light go off in my head, and slowly over the course of the next year I rid myself of all things I considerred wrong or evil. Now this could have simply been me maturing past my adolescent stage and the presence I felt could have been a subconscious plea for me to keep away from bad influences (I wasn't that bad a kid, but I went out of my way to choose a righteous path afterwards. I took some time though). I choose to believe it as divine because that is the faith I have. I argue and debate religion often with both Christians and non-Christians but that is more for my learning rather than to try and change others. I learn a lot about what I feel and think when I debate and here other arguments and ideas. I feel if Christianity is the true religion and I found it on my own then so will everyone else and it is not my place to push it on people.
 

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very admirable post shallow. i believe that whatever religion you believe in, it doesn't matter as long as you stay true to yourself. through islam i've learned that it's never wise to force your religion upon another, but to let them decide for themself because at the end of the day, you are accountable for your actions, not any1 else...... i wanted to point out a specific statement in your post:

"I felt something, a presence enter me and light go off in my head, and slowly over the course of the next year I rid myself of all things I considerred wrong or evil"

i had the same exact feeling not so long ago. i was never a "bad" kid. i smoked weed on a regular basis during my high school years and drank a little every so often. i now believe that it was mainly the influences around me that kept me on that dangerous road. i wouldnt say it was completely peer pressure because at any point i could've said nah im good, but i didn't have the will to do it. it was easier for me to just say yes. not too long ago i started slowing down residually and after i got busted by my coach, i really knew that it cud potentially screw my life up. i used to brainwash myself into thinking i was a good muslim because i believed in islam, but i never really felt in my heart that kind of presence you spoke about until recently. i always knew islam was the right religion for me, but i also knew that i wasn't being a good muslim becaus of the things i was doin besides the weed & alcohol. i now understand that my time on earth is only a train stop....i'm waiting for that train to come and take me to my real destination: paradise.

I WENT TO STAPLES CENTER WEN I WAS WALKING MY GOLD RAG FALL OF MY POCKET AND THE GROUND WAS WET TO AND DIRTY MY RAG GOT DIRTY A LIL BIT PULL IT IT BACK AND MAKE SURE IT WOULD NOT DROP AGAIN ROCKING MY RAG AGAIN HOMIE 8
 

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very admirable post shallow. i believe that whatever religion you believe in, it doesn't matter as long as you stay true to yourself. through islam i've learned that it's never wise to force your religion upon another, but to let them decide for themself because at the end of the day, you are accountable for your actions, not any1 else...... i wanted to point out a specific statement in your post:

"I felt something, a presence enter me and light go off in my head, and slowly over the course of the next year I rid myself of all things I considerred wrong or evil"

i had the same exact feeling not so long ago. i was never a "bad" kid. i smoked weed on a regular basis during my high school years and drank a little every so often. i now believe that it was mainly the influences around me that kept me on that dangerous road. i wouldnt say it was completely peer pressure because at any point i could've said nah im good, but i didn't have the will to do it. it was easier for me to just say yes. not too long ago i started slowing down residually and after i got busted by my coach, i really knew that it cud potentially screw my life up. i used to brainwash myself into thinking i was a good muslim because i believed in islam, but i never really felt in my heart that kind of presence you spoke about until recently. i always knew islam was the right religion for me, but i also knew that i wasn't being a good muslim becaus of the things i was doin besides the weed & alcohol. i now understand that my time on earth is only a train stop....i'm waiting for that train to come and take me to my real destination: paradise.

I haven't distanced myself from any of my former peers since I try not to make it seem like a grew above them (not saying that you did or do). I still hang around and represent myself in hopes of being a good influence. I stay around weed smokers so I can not smoke infront of them and pass it by. The funny thing they usually say is "God made weed" to which I respond "God made Satan too, so just because God made it doesn't make it good". They seem to stop arguing after that.

As for pushing my religion. My interpretation of Christianity is very different from most. While I personally choose to believe in the whole son of God thing I can easily see it metaphorically or even as something greater. As it states in the Gospel of John; In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the Word was God. The Word was the light and the word became Christ. So when Jesus refers to himself in the Gospel I seem him referring to the Word of God and when he says no man will see the father but through me, I take it as no one who doesn't have the word of God, the knowledge of what is good, will gain acceptance. In that regard my view of salvation is open to anyone who is righteous and has moral values, regardless of the traditions, customs, and superstitions that go with their chosen lifestyle or religion. So there is no point for me to push my technicalities on people. It's the message I try and spread, sometimes in a subtle way, sometimes in a brazen way. I don't bother talking to righteoes people in a persusive way and when I meet sinners I usually push tem towards their chosen way. If it's an athiest I use logic and ethics, a Muslim; I tell him to read the Quran, and Hindu; I ask him what his religion belives in, and I tend to find the message of all is the same and the parts I disagree with morally most do anyway. For me, God's word and message is greater than anything written down in one place, it's everywhere.
 

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i dont accept islam cuz youre a bunch of fucking kooks
sounds about right
ahah yea
 

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i dont accept islam cuz youre a bunch of fucking kooks
sounds about right
ahah yea

i guess thats why chappelle went "crazy"  ::)

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I TO DA GEEZY

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through islam i've learned that it's never wise to force your religion upon another

You really needed Islam to reach this conclusion?

I've reached it long time ago, without being Muslim for some reason.
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

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through islam i've learned that it's never wise to force your religion upon another

You really needed Islam to reach this conclusion?

I've reached it long time ago, without being Muslim for some reason.

yes i did and thats why Jehova's Witnesses can suck my dick

I WENT TO STAPLES CENTER WEN I WAS WALKING MY GOLD RAG FALL OF MY POCKET AND THE GROUND WAS WET TO AND DIRTY MY RAG GOT DIRTY A LIL BIT PULL IT IT BACK AND MAKE SURE IT WOULD NOT DROP AGAIN ROCKING MY RAG AGAIN HOMIE 8
 

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through islam i've learned that it's never wise to force your religion upon another

You really needed Islam to reach this conclusion?

I've reached it long time ago, without being Muslim for some reason.


I don't think he ever said you had to be Muslim to learn that. No need to antagonize. You can use logic and reasoning to come to any conclusion with regards to morality. Thinking you have to follow any particular religion to come to those conclusions is ridiculous. That doesn't mean that some don't learn that from the scriptures they read. Morality pre-dates any written down religion, but religion still for hte most part writes of morality so many will learn morality through religion.
 

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I wasn't antagonizing. I guess it's in the eyes of the beholder though. I simply asked a question to which he had answered in the affirmative, as u can most likely see.
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

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As for pushing my religion. My interpretation of Christianity is very different from most. While I personally choose to believe in the whole son of God thing I can easily see it metaphorically or even as something greater.

i think it's safe to say that that sort of metaphorical view is not inconsistent with islam.  the issue in the qu'ran with christ is that god isn't a man with a seed that impregnates women.  the virgin conception of mary is accepted by the qu'ran.  christ is inspired by the holy spirit according to the qu'ran.  it's just the notion of god begetting a child, and that's problematic.  also the notion that god has equals is inconsistent with the qu'ran.  the qu'ran readily accepts the notion that christ's birth was miraculous, and does not challenge the notion that christ was a divine indidual (certainly more divine than most).  it's really two small technical points where the disagreement occurs.

sura 19:17-21
She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God."
He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."


and in sura 21:

sura 21:91
And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.

 
the argument over the nature of christ between islam and the some of the more popular denominations of christianity is a small distinction, but also very significant.

the similarities between the two far outweigh the differences.


« Last Edit: March 20, 2006, 08:39:46 AM by nibs »
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nibs

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There it is again, you taking a small percentage of whites which represents no where near the minority and make it seem like most whites act like this. It's no different than saying most muslim rioted over the cartoons.

look at the american government, and this dubai ports issue.  95% of the american government, both democrats and republicans, have made it clear that they just don't trust arabs period.  the uae is one of the few arab states (along with kuwait & qatar) that have been helpful and accomodating in the war against iraq.  for example the saudis opposed the u.s. using bases in saudi arabia; turkey (not arab, but muslim) denied usage of u.s. bases and their airspace; as a result u.s. troops and operations largely were based in kuwait, qatar and the uae.  if the u.s. govt feels they cannot trust one of the few arab states that supported their preemptive war against another arab state (iraq); it's clear that the u.s. government feels it cannot trust any arabs at all.  it's clear that this is a position widely held across the u.s; based on the reaction to this dubai issue.

it seems clear to me that in the u.s. the arab world is not respected.  the cartoon issue that you referenced make it clear to me that in europe, the muslim world is not respected either.
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it seems clear to me that in the u.s. the arab world is not respected.  the cartoon issue that you referenced make it clear to me that in europe, the muslim world is not respected either.

Yup... can't forget Kissinger: "Oil is too important to be in the hands of the Arabs"

Racist fucks
my throat hurts, its hard to swallow, and my body feels like i got a serious ass beating.

LOL @ this fudgepacker
 

nibs

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We had slightly different reasons; you had your views on whether God can be man and that the Quran was never changed, and I had mine on whether God's prophet would have to pick up arms and fight oppressors when a prophet like Moses had God coming in and dealing with it for him.

it has been claimed that angels fought alongside muhammad at the battle of badr and their intervention is what turned the tide against the quraish tribes.  several miracles have been attributed to that battle.

more importantly, the qu'ran portrays human life as a test.  trials and struggles such as war and oppression are often portrayed as tests used to separate out the true believers from the pretenders.  this is not dissimilar to the tests applied to job (which are referenced in the qu'ran).  it is funny that you mention moses, moses is regarded as a muslim; regarded as a prophet, and the qu'ran makes dozens of references to moses leading the israelites out of egypt.  the same miracles that you cite from christianity, are cited in islam.  moses, jesus, muhammad, abraham...etc are all regarded equally in the qu'ran.  from the islamic point of view, christianity is not something wildly different.  for the most part it's completely consistent with the qu'ran, it is a form of islam; other than the questionable interpretations that some christian sects have taken towards the nature of christ, and the notion of a trinity.
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Nibs, nothing you are telling me is new to me. I know what Moses is regarded as and I know that they are all mentioned in the Quran. I love when you say this though; "other than the questionable interpretations that some christian sects have taken towards the nature of christ, and the notion of a trinity.". Some sects? Of the nearly 2 billion Christians, a lot more than "some" have the trinity in their doctrine. Here's what it is though; you think Jesus never said that and it was made up years later to make the pagans better accept Jesus or whatever the reason. (P.S. Don't some Muslim's think Jesus lived a couple hundred years after the crucifixion?). So you believe what I had been taught is a lie. So by logic I have to believew what you have been taught it is a lie. While you think the written Gospel was changed I think the Quran was created by man using the old texts and various Greek and pre-Greek sciences and used as a revolutionary tool to roud up troops and keep them inspired. I don't get why after Jesus, who showed no signs of deadly violence or battle and inspired a movement of spreading faith through sacrifice. Why would Muhammad have to protect the word of God so strongly with swords when Christianity grew so well with out an army of soldiers? It just doesn't make sense to me. The Quran could have been written and kept as the official word and then the same movement that caused Christians to go grow could have went on, in theory. It's just the way I see it, and I don't say you are wrong, anymore than you say I am. We could both be way off, but I choose to belive this while you choose to believe that.




There it is again, you taking a small percentage of whites which represents no where near the minority and make it seem like most whites act like this. It's no different than saying most muslim rioted over the cartoons.

look at the american government, and this dubai ports issue.  95% of the american government, both democrats and republicans, have made it clear that they just don't trust arabs period.  the uae is one of the few arab states (along with kuwait & qatar) that have been helpful and accomodating in the war against iraq.  for example the saudis opposed the u.s. using bases in saudi arabia; turkey (not arab, but muslim) denied usage of u.s. bases and their airspace; as a result u.s. troops and operations largely were based in kuwait, qatar and the uae.  if the u.s. govt feels they cannot trust one of the few arab states that supported their preemptive war against another arab state (iraq); it's clear that the u.s. government feels it cannot trust any arabs at all.  it's clear that this is a position widely held across the u.s; based on the reaction to this dubai issue.

it seems clear to me that in the u.s. the arab world is not respected.  the cartoon issue that you referenced make it clear to me that in europe, the muslim world is not respected either.


I'm talking about the majority of the American people. It's the same logic that applies to people that say the majority of the American's were on the same side as the Klan back in the day. Well if that was true then there would be no black people in the US. Whites greatly outnumbers blacks in the states and it wouldn't even be a fight. Infinite made it seem that every, or the majority, of whites in the US write off any arab or muslim as a terrorist and don't regard them as being able to be intelligent, and he has no proof of that. All he has is the small percentage of people he personal knows. This isn't about the US governments portrayal or Henry Kissinger's remarks, which I find more tactical than racist. (Arabs had been an enemy of the Western world and regardlesss of who started that it would be unwise to have a major resource in the hands of a potential enemy. If oil was in Germany in the 40s or Russia Kissinger would have said the same thing about Germans or Russians.)
 

nibs

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I love when you say this though; "other than the questionable interpretations that some christian sects have taken towards the nature of christ, and the notion of a trinity.". Some sects? Of the nearly 2 billion Christians, a lot more than "some" have the trinity in their doctrine.

i was poking fun at you with that line, we just had that argument two weeks ago.  :) without question the christians who disavow the trinity and the notion that christ is god are in the minority.

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So you believe what I had been taught is a lie. So by logic I have to believew what you have been taught it is a lie.

it's nice to say that "our beliefs clash"; but ultimately there are facts beneath all of this.  all we are arguing is exactly what we do and don't know. 

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While you think the written Gospel was changed I think the Quran was created by man using the old texts and various Greek and pre-Greek sciences and used as a revolutionary tool to roud up troops and keep them inspired.

the qu'ran clearly states that it exists to reaffirm much of what was already known.  jesus, moses, abraham...these are all recognized as muslims; and clearly none of them had the qu'ran.  the qu'ran isn't about revealing new secret information; the qu'ran is about reaffirming what is right and what is true.  resolving question.

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I don't get why after Jesus, who showed no signs of deadly violence or battle and inspired a movement of spreading faith through sacrifice. Why would Muhammad have to protect the word of God so strongly with swords when Christianity grew so well with out an army of soldiers?

there are two issues here. 
do you respect the old testament?  there are plenty of wars and violent acts all throughout the old testament that are sanctioned by god; many of which god is attributed as having directly intervened.  so this whole peace/war debate isn't unique to the qu'ran, but a question of how relevant the old testament is to christians. 
this issue is easily resolved if you choose to use christs sayings and words as an example for personal conduct but not necessarily guidance for a nation.  throughout the qu'ran in all the contexts where violence is condoned, a peaceful resolution is always preferred.  the violence, the war...these are always last resorts throughout the qu'ran. 

the qu'ran teaches that life is a test.  that the physical form is not the true form of an individuals existance...etc.  your insistance of peace at all costs ignores those ideas; by trying to oversimplify every problem so that the solution is always the same.

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It just doesn't make sense to me.

let's try to make sense of things.
the issues you raise against muhammad and the qu'ran don't challenge any of the fundamental tenets of islam.

you are not challenging daily prayers.
you are not challenging charitable donations to the poor
you are not challenging whether or not fasting is good;  jesus fasted afterall.
you are not directly challenging that there is one creator, that there is one god.
these fundamental beliefs in islam are largely the same as the fundamental beliefs in the old testament

with christianity, noone is challenging the teachings of christ; however, if you insist upon advancing this notion of a trinity...then the fundamental beliefs of that trinity doctrine are in question.

so when you boil this down to a question of beliefs, it's a question of some auxilliary ideas in the quran vs the fundamental ideas of this trinity doctrine.

and that is all i'm saying.  islam is really the basis for christianity; and it is only these notions of this trinity concept that anyone is debating.


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I'm talking about the majority of the American people.

the majority of american people have demonstrated a xenophobic attitude towards arabs.

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It's the same logic that applies to people that say the majority of the American's were on the same side as the Klan back in the day. Well if that was true then there would be no black people in the US.

how is that example relevant? 
what is true is that the majorty of americans were not for full equality either legally or socially.  you can look at lincoln's personal notes.  you can look at segregation.  you can look at the strong opposition to the civil rights movement and early integration.  it was not an issue that the majority would stand up for.

noone is saying the majority of americans hate arabs.  what's said is a general distrust of arabs has been reaffirmed by this dubai ports incident.  a general lack of respect for islam has been demonstrated with this dutch cartoons incidents.

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Infinite made it seem that every, or the majority, of whites in the US write off any arab or muslim as a terrorist and don't regard them as being able to be intelligent, and he has no proof of that.

i don't know about the intelligence angle; but in general, across america there is a very self-aggrandazing sense of nationalism; and a general lack of appreciation for foreign cultures.  foreign cultures and customs are portrayed as "quaint".  after 9/11 this has, in the case of arabs and muslims, degenerated into outright disrespect in many ways.  this is across politics, the media and pop culture.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 05:47:32 PM by nibs »
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1.) I know it was tounge and cheek. I was just having some fun with it.


2.) Obviously the facts cannot be proven either way and I have no intention of debating that. I am perfectly happy believing in what I believe and would rather you beilieve what suited you rather rather than believe what suits but you find uncomfortable. It's not like I think you're going to hell, or that I get to heaven before you. Those issues are of no importance to me. All I worry about is being as good as I can be here on Earth. No point thinking about the other stuff.


3.) I think Jesus didn't write things down because he knew that what is right and what is true can change with the times. There are universal right and wrongs but you don't need a book to know those. Everyone knows them. You can feel them. I guess that's why I believe in the Holy Spirit. I feel that God is in everyone of us and guides us if we let him. Once you right things down they end up becoming dated. From what is written in the Gospels everything Jesus said that sounds dated is a metaphor that applies to today. I never found anything that makes me think "oh, well that's well and good for 2000 years ago but you can't do that today". I see that in the Quran with the position of women. It's not much different than what Paul wrote down. Even Gospels that aren't used because they are deemed heretic make sense to me on a universal level. Here's something fromthe Gospel of Thomas that many think made Jesus look sexist.

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

First you have to remember that the Gospel was written in Greek and Greek at the time was still heavily influenced by Plato and in his writings male and female weren't just man and woman, but words for to separate classes. Obviously women in ancient Greece were given less rights than men. So to me Jesus isn't saying you have to be a man to work for God or take control, but she would have to switch roles and take on roles normally reserved for men, and the women that do this will enter Heaven just like any man would. No where does it say that women that don't will not enter heaven and to assume so would be a fallacy. To me this shows that Jesus knew there would be a time where the roles would get reversed for some and there would be instances where the woman would be head or equal to the head of the family. Based on what I've read and what I was told, nowhere in the Quran could you even make an argument for that because it makes it clear that the man is the head of the household. (Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd hate to restate this if it isn't true).


Sure the Organized Religion of Islam and The Organized Orthodox and Catholic Churches aren't very different outside of a few technicalities. But I have more problems with thse churches than I do with Islam.


4.) I have great issues with the Old Testament and absolutely never look to it for guidance. I saw Jesus as someone that was sent because everyone before him got it wrong and altered God's words and orders because they thought it would be best for the people. I see Jesus as someone who fixed this or tried to.


I haven't read the old book in a while. Vould you give me examples where God orders a man to kill and lets him go though with it, or where God orders a war?


5.) Let's get my thoughts on these issues out of the way.

you are not challenging daily prayers.- I am not but I also don't see the need of praying. An all knowing being knows when I do things for God and knows that I love God.

you are not challenging charitable donations to the poor- I don't consider them a rule and don't feel they dhould be given unless you want to give. Otherwise it's not charity, it's guilt or sense of duty inspired by fear.

you are not challenging whether or not fasting is good;  jesus fasted afterall.- Again, I'm not against it but don't see it as crucial either.

you are not directly challenging that there is one creator, that there is one god.- I really don't care to think of those things on a historical level. I choose to believe and live a certain way, or try to, and I have too many things that I can control that need to be done and figured out before I take time to think about this.


with christianity, noone is challenging the teachings of christ; however, if you insist upon advancing this notion of a trinity...then the fundamental beliefs of that trinity doctrine are in question.

So are the fundamental beliefs that God exists. We have no proof but we advance the notion none the less.


so when you boil this down to a question of beliefs, it's a question of some auxilliary ideas in the quran vs the fundamental ideas of this trinity doctrine.



Auxiliary? Are we talking about the same word that means something is not essential? What exactly is an auxiliary beluef of the Quran with regards to the fundmanetal belief of the Trinity? I hope you're talking about prayer and charity because if you're talking about one God vs the essence of God then your beliefs are just as fundamental as mine.


Islam the basus for Christianity? I guess you're going by the notion that Islam was first but forgotten. To each his own. But It's not just the notion of the trinity that I debate. I debate the necessity of customs and traditions that plague nearly every religion. To me Christianity is not a church or book, but a state of mind and as long as you have the values that are essential to Christianity, the basic right and wrong, you are a Christian, whether you even know who Jesus is or was. The little things mean nothing, because the little things change, but the universal truths stay the same.




As for the whites vs arabs stuff. What I'm trying to say is that deep inside I feel mnost know better but refuse to stand up out of fear of going against the grain. That's why I brough up the Klan. It wasn't that the south desperately wanted blacks to suffer as slaves. Most where just protecting there own life (the most that had no slaves to keep anyway) and there ideas again reflected what they thought they were supposed to say. It's a common human trait and I don't see why what applies everywhere wouldn't play to those two issues. Infinite was looking for a cop out and I was not going to give it to him. People have a hard time accepting what goes far against what they have been taught as right for so long. It is no easier for a muslim to accept the trinity than it is for an American to accept Islam. I just don't think it's hate that makes it hard for people to accept.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 10:20:50 AM by Shallow »