Author Topic: Reason Why Many White People Don't Accept Islam Is Similar To Why The Jews...  (Read 2965 times)

J @ M @ L

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it seems clear to me that in the u.s. the arab world is not respected.  the cartoon issue that you referenced make it clear to me that in europe, the muslim world is not respected either.

Yup... can't forget Kissinger: "Oil is too important to be in the hands of the Arabs"

Racist fucks
my throat hurts, its hard to swallow, and my body feels like i got a serious ass beating.

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nibs

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We had slightly different reasons; you had your views on whether God can be man and that the Quran was never changed, and I had mine on whether God's prophet would have to pick up arms and fight oppressors when a prophet like Moses had God coming in and dealing with it for him.

it has been claimed that angels fought alongside muhammad at the battle of badr and their intervention is what turned the tide against the quraish tribes.  several miracles have been attributed to that battle.

more importantly, the qu'ran portrays human life as a test.  trials and struggles such as war and oppression are often portrayed as tests used to separate out the true believers from the pretenders.  this is not dissimilar to the tests applied to job (which are referenced in the qu'ran).  it is funny that you mention moses, moses is regarded as a muslim; regarded as a prophet, and the qu'ran makes dozens of references to moses leading the israelites out of egypt.  the same miracles that you cite from christianity, are cited in islam.  moses, jesus, muhammad, abraham...etc are all regarded equally in the qu'ran.  from the islamic point of view, christianity is not something wildly different.  for the most part it's completely consistent with the qu'ran, it is a form of islam; other than the questionable interpretations that some christian sects have taken towards the nature of christ, and the notion of a trinity.
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Shallow

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Nibs, nothing you are telling me is new to me. I know what Moses is regarded as and I know that they are all mentioned in the Quran. I love when you say this though; "other than the questionable interpretations that some christian sects have taken towards the nature of christ, and the notion of a trinity.". Some sects? Of the nearly 2 billion Christians, a lot more than "some" have the trinity in their doctrine. Here's what it is though; you think Jesus never said that and it was made up years later to make the pagans better accept Jesus or whatever the reason. (P.S. Don't some Muslim's think Jesus lived a couple hundred years after the crucifixion?). So you believe what I had been taught is a lie. So by logic I have to believew what you have been taught it is a lie. While you think the written Gospel was changed I think the Quran was created by man using the old texts and various Greek and pre-Greek sciences and used as a revolutionary tool to roud up troops and keep them inspired. I don't get why after Jesus, who showed no signs of deadly violence or battle and inspired a movement of spreading faith through sacrifice. Why would Muhammad have to protect the word of God so strongly with swords when Christianity grew so well with out an army of soldiers? It just doesn't make sense to me. The Quran could have been written and kept as the official word and then the same movement that caused Christians to go grow could have went on, in theory. It's just the way I see it, and I don't say you are wrong, anymore than you say I am. We could both be way off, but I choose to belive this while you choose to believe that.




There it is again, you taking a small percentage of whites which represents no where near the minority and make it seem like most whites act like this. It's no different than saying most muslim rioted over the cartoons.

look at the american government, and this dubai ports issue.  95% of the american government, both democrats and republicans, have made it clear that they just don't trust arabs period.  the uae is one of the few arab states (along with kuwait & qatar) that have been helpful and accomodating in the war against iraq.  for example the saudis opposed the u.s. using bases in saudi arabia; turkey (not arab, but muslim) denied usage of u.s. bases and their airspace; as a result u.s. troops and operations largely were based in kuwait, qatar and the uae.  if the u.s. govt feels they cannot trust one of the few arab states that supported their preemptive war against another arab state (iraq); it's clear that the u.s. government feels it cannot trust any arabs at all.  it's clear that this is a position widely held across the u.s; based on the reaction to this dubai issue.

it seems clear to me that in the u.s. the arab world is not respected.  the cartoon issue that you referenced make it clear to me that in europe, the muslim world is not respected either.


I'm talking about the majority of the American people. It's the same logic that applies to people that say the majority of the American's were on the same side as the Klan back in the day. Well if that was true then there would be no black people in the US. Whites greatly outnumbers blacks in the states and it wouldn't even be a fight. Infinite made it seem that every, or the majority, of whites in the US write off any arab or muslim as a terrorist and don't regard them as being able to be intelligent, and he has no proof of that. All he has is the small percentage of people he personal knows. This isn't about the US governments portrayal or Henry Kissinger's remarks, which I find more tactical than racist. (Arabs had been an enemy of the Western world and regardlesss of who started that it would be unwise to have a major resource in the hands of a potential enemy. If oil was in Germany in the 40s or Russia Kissinger would have said the same thing about Germans or Russians.)
 

nibs

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I love when you say this though; "other than the questionable interpretations that some christian sects have taken towards the nature of christ, and the notion of a trinity.". Some sects? Of the nearly 2 billion Christians, a lot more than "some" have the trinity in their doctrine.

i was poking fun at you with that line, we just had that argument two weeks ago.  :) without question the christians who disavow the trinity and the notion that christ is god are in the minority.

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So you believe what I had been taught is a lie. So by logic I have to believew what you have been taught it is a lie.

it's nice to say that "our beliefs clash"; but ultimately there are facts beneath all of this.  all we are arguing is exactly what we do and don't know. 

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While you think the written Gospel was changed I think the Quran was created by man using the old texts and various Greek and pre-Greek sciences and used as a revolutionary tool to roud up troops and keep them inspired.

the qu'ran clearly states that it exists to reaffirm much of what was already known.  jesus, moses, abraham...these are all recognized as muslims; and clearly none of them had the qu'ran.  the qu'ran isn't about revealing new secret information; the qu'ran is about reaffirming what is right and what is true.  resolving question.

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I don't get why after Jesus, who showed no signs of deadly violence or battle and inspired a movement of spreading faith through sacrifice. Why would Muhammad have to protect the word of God so strongly with swords when Christianity grew so well with out an army of soldiers?

there are two issues here. 
do you respect the old testament?  there are plenty of wars and violent acts all throughout the old testament that are sanctioned by god; many of which god is attributed as having directly intervened.  so this whole peace/war debate isn't unique to the qu'ran, but a question of how relevant the old testament is to christians. 
this issue is easily resolved if you choose to use christs sayings and words as an example for personal conduct but not necessarily guidance for a nation.  throughout the qu'ran in all the contexts where violence is condoned, a peaceful resolution is always preferred.  the violence, the war...these are always last resorts throughout the qu'ran. 

the qu'ran teaches that life is a test.  that the physical form is not the true form of an individuals existance...etc.  your insistance of peace at all costs ignores those ideas; by trying to oversimplify every problem so that the solution is always the same.

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It just doesn't make sense to me.

let's try to make sense of things.
the issues you raise against muhammad and the qu'ran don't challenge any of the fundamental tenets of islam.

you are not challenging daily prayers.
you are not challenging charitable donations to the poor
you are not challenging whether or not fasting is good;  jesus fasted afterall.
you are not directly challenging that there is one creator, that there is one god.
these fundamental beliefs in islam are largely the same as the fundamental beliefs in the old testament

with christianity, noone is challenging the teachings of christ; however, if you insist upon advancing this notion of a trinity...then the fundamental beliefs of that trinity doctrine are in question.

so when you boil this down to a question of beliefs, it's a question of some auxilliary ideas in the quran vs the fundamental ideas of this trinity doctrine.

and that is all i'm saying.  islam is really the basis for christianity; and it is only these notions of this trinity concept that anyone is debating.


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I'm talking about the majority of the American people.

the majority of american people have demonstrated a xenophobic attitude towards arabs.

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It's the same logic that applies to people that say the majority of the American's were on the same side as the Klan back in the day. Well if that was true then there would be no black people in the US.

how is that example relevant? 
what is true is that the majorty of americans were not for full equality either legally or socially.  you can look at lincoln's personal notes.  you can look at segregation.  you can look at the strong opposition to the civil rights movement and early integration.  it was not an issue that the majority would stand up for.

noone is saying the majority of americans hate arabs.  what's said is a general distrust of arabs has been reaffirmed by this dubai ports incident.  a general lack of respect for islam has been demonstrated with this dutch cartoons incidents.

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Infinite made it seem that every, or the majority, of whites in the US write off any arab or muslim as a terrorist and don't regard them as being able to be intelligent, and he has no proof of that.

i don't know about the intelligence angle; but in general, across america there is a very self-aggrandazing sense of nationalism; and a general lack of appreciation for foreign cultures.  foreign cultures and customs are portrayed as "quaint".  after 9/11 this has, in the case of arabs and muslims, degenerated into outright disrespect in many ways.  this is across politics, the media and pop culture.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 04:47:32 PM by nibs »
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Shallow

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1.) I know it was tounge and cheek. I was just having some fun with it.


2.) Obviously the facts cannot be proven either way and I have no intention of debating that. I am perfectly happy believing in what I believe and would rather you beilieve what suited you rather rather than believe what suits but you find uncomfortable. It's not like I think you're going to hell, or that I get to heaven before you. Those issues are of no importance to me. All I worry about is being as good as I can be here on Earth. No point thinking about the other stuff.


3.) I think Jesus didn't write things down because he knew that what is right and what is true can change with the times. There are universal right and wrongs but you don't need a book to know those. Everyone knows them. You can feel them. I guess that's why I believe in the Holy Spirit. I feel that God is in everyone of us and guides us if we let him. Once you right things down they end up becoming dated. From what is written in the Gospels everything Jesus said that sounds dated is a metaphor that applies to today. I never found anything that makes me think "oh, well that's well and good for 2000 years ago but you can't do that today". I see that in the Quran with the position of women. It's not much different than what Paul wrote down. Even Gospels that aren't used because they are deemed heretic make sense to me on a universal level. Here's something fromthe Gospel of Thomas that many think made Jesus look sexist.

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

First you have to remember that the Gospel was written in Greek and Greek at the time was still heavily influenced by Plato and in his writings male and female weren't just man and woman, but words for to separate classes. Obviously women in ancient Greece were given less rights than men. So to me Jesus isn't saying you have to be a man to work for God or take control, but she would have to switch roles and take on roles normally reserved for men, and the women that do this will enter Heaven just like any man would. No where does it say that women that don't will not enter heaven and to assume so would be a fallacy. To me this shows that Jesus knew there would be a time where the roles would get reversed for some and there would be instances where the woman would be head or equal to the head of the family. Based on what I've read and what I was told, nowhere in the Quran could you even make an argument for that because it makes it clear that the man is the head of the household. (Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd hate to restate this if it isn't true).


Sure the Organized Religion of Islam and The Organized Orthodox and Catholic Churches aren't very different outside of a few technicalities. But I have more problems with thse churches than I do with Islam.


4.) I have great issues with the Old Testament and absolutely never look to it for guidance. I saw Jesus as someone that was sent because everyone before him got it wrong and altered God's words and orders because they thought it would be best for the people. I see Jesus as someone who fixed this or tried to.


I haven't read the old book in a while. Vould you give me examples where God orders a man to kill and lets him go though with it, or where God orders a war?


5.) Let's get my thoughts on these issues out of the way.

you are not challenging daily prayers.- I am not but I also don't see the need of praying. An all knowing being knows when I do things for God and knows that I love God.

you are not challenging charitable donations to the poor- I don't consider them a rule and don't feel they dhould be given unless you want to give. Otherwise it's not charity, it's guilt or sense of duty inspired by fear.

you are not challenging whether or not fasting is good;  jesus fasted afterall.- Again, I'm not against it but don't see it as crucial either.

you are not directly challenging that there is one creator, that there is one god.- I really don't care to think of those things on a historical level. I choose to believe and live a certain way, or try to, and I have too many things that I can control that need to be done and figured out before I take time to think about this.


with christianity, noone is challenging the teachings of christ; however, if you insist upon advancing this notion of a trinity...then the fundamental beliefs of that trinity doctrine are in question.

So are the fundamental beliefs that God exists. We have no proof but we advance the notion none the less.


so when you boil this down to a question of beliefs, it's a question of some auxilliary ideas in the quran vs the fundamental ideas of this trinity doctrine.



Auxiliary? Are we talking about the same word that means something is not essential? What exactly is an auxiliary beluef of the Quran with regards to the fundmanetal belief of the Trinity? I hope you're talking about prayer and charity because if you're talking about one God vs the essence of God then your beliefs are just as fundamental as mine.


Islam the basus for Christianity? I guess you're going by the notion that Islam was first but forgotten. To each his own. But It's not just the notion of the trinity that I debate. I debate the necessity of customs and traditions that plague nearly every religion. To me Christianity is not a church or book, but a state of mind and as long as you have the values that are essential to Christianity, the basic right and wrong, you are a Christian, whether you even know who Jesus is or was. The little things mean nothing, because the little things change, but the universal truths stay the same.




As for the whites vs arabs stuff. What I'm trying to say is that deep inside I feel mnost know better but refuse to stand up out of fear of going against the grain. That's why I brough up the Klan. It wasn't that the south desperately wanted blacks to suffer as slaves. Most where just protecting there own life (the most that had no slaves to keep anyway) and there ideas again reflected what they thought they were supposed to say. It's a common human trait and I don't see why what applies everywhere wouldn't play to those two issues. Infinite was looking for a cop out and I was not going to give it to him. People have a hard time accepting what goes far against what they have been taught as right for so long. It is no easier for a muslim to accept the trinity than it is for an American to accept Islam. I just don't think it's hate that makes it hard for people to accept.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 09:20:50 AM by Shallow »
 

nibs

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1.) I know it was tounge and cheek. I was just having some fun with it.

i'm glad we're all having fun then :)

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There are universal right and wrongs but you don't need a book to know those. Everyone knows them. You can feel them.

the books provide guidance.  teachers provide guidance.  it's very easy to trick yourself into question, doubting and rejecting that which you feel is right.  we can even argue the nature of what is right and wrong because i don't think we agree here.

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I guess that's why I believe in the Holy Spirit. I feel that God is in everyone of us and guides us if we let him.

so for the record, the quran does not challenge the notion of a holy spirit.  it fully supports the notion of higher righteous and also malicious entities.  some translations make direct reference to the/a holy spirit.

the only difference between what you are saying and ideas supported by the quran is that the quran clearly states one creator, superior to all.  holy spirits, angels/jinns...all clearly superior to humans, more devine to humans, but subordinate to ultimate one creator.  the only point of contention between your statements and the quran is this insistence that the holy spirit and jesus are not just divine, but equal with god.  as opposed to divine yet lesser creations of god.

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I haven't read the old book in a while. Vould you give me examples where God orders a man to kill and lets him go though with it, or where God orders a war?

a key example is the book of joshua.  god orders joshua to conquer an insane amount of land, basically from egypt to iraq, including israel, jordan, lebanon, syria, iraq...etc.  states that he is on joshua's side and none can defeat him.  and thus a great israeli empire is founded.  that story about the walls of jehrico crumbling down is basically a war god commands his people to undertake, and then assists them with, for example.  that battle and others are all detailed in joshua.


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To me this shows that Jesus knew there would be a time where the roles would get reversed for some and there would be instances where the woman would be head or equal to the head of the family. Based on what I've read and what I was told, nowhere in the Quran could you even make an argument for that because it makes it clear that the man is the head of the household. (Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd hate to restate this if it isn't true).

<this is connected>

Auxiliary? Are we talking about the same word that means something is not essential? What exactly is an auxiliary beluef of the Quran with regards to the fundmanetal belief of the Trinity? I hope you're talking about prayer and charity because if you're talking about one God vs the essence of God then your beliefs are just as fundamental as mine.

the qu'ran says alot of things.  what's most essential is that there is one god, and acceptance of this and submission to god's will is the one religion.  and that is islam.  denying that is catastrophic.

additionally it prescribes the daily prayers, charitable donations...etc; because "you will be better for it".  it also gives direction on handling issues such as contracts, marriages, inheritance...etc. 

the quran also presents the idea that there are multiple heavens, or multiple levels of heavenly reward, which represents how close one is to god; which reflects ones level of spiritual development.

the qu'ran also states that there is no obligation in religion.

when you put all these ideas together; it isn't that the qu'ran is commanding certain behaviours absolutely, but providing instruction that will help condition and facilitate the greatest amount of spiritual growth.  thus it has it's core ideas:
one god, submit to god's will

important ideas:
daily prayers, charitable donations...etc; which you will be better for adhering to...

auxiliary ideas:
dealing with maintaining a household and a community.

when you mention your aversion to war and violence, the qu'rans position there is simple.  injustice, oppression; these are things that are abhorrant to god.  to engage in war in order to end oppression or injustice is to act in a manner consistent with god's will.  for you to reduce everything to "violence" == "bad" is for you to deny the true nature of existence, to put too great of a value on human life which while precious is also temporary, and could be viewed as complicity in violating god's will.

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you are not challenging daily prayers.
-I am not but I also don't see the need of praying. An all knowing being knows when I do things for God and knows that I love God.

clearly god does not need you to pray.  you would be better off for praying as it is a form of worship, it keeps your mind on god, it facilitates your spiritual growth.  some translations of the qu'ran mention meditating at night in addition to praying.  it's better for your spiritual growth. 

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you are not challenging charitable donations to the poor
- I don't consider them a rule and don't feel they dhould be given unless you want to give. Otherwise it's not charity, it's guilt or sense of duty inspired by fear.

and your statements are consistent here with the quran and the bible as well.  it's not the works, it's the mindset.  the state of mind.  the quran says if you give with resentment, or with spiteful words than you completely undo the good of the deed. 

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you are not challenging whether or not fasting is good;  jesus fasted afterall.
- Again, I'm not against it but don't see it as crucial either.

fasting is a form of sacrifice, a form of discipline...etc.  it's not crucial as you say.  the quran provides in instructions on how to make up for an inablilty to fast; but it states that ultimately you will be better off if you are able to fast.  it's about spiritual growth, not obligation. 

with christianity, noone is challenging the teachings of christ; however, if you insist upon advancing this notion of a trinity...then the fundamental beliefs of that trinity doctrine are in question.

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So are the fundamental beliefs that God exists. We have no proof but we advance the notion none the less.

in the context of christian beliefs vs the quran, the acceptance of god is granted.  the debate is about the nature of christ.

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Islam the basis for Christianity? I guess you're going by the notion that Islam was first but forgotten.

yes.  i am saying islam but not the quran.  the quran clearly came after christianity.  but what was known was the form of the salat prayers, the notions of charity, fasting, and ofcourse the acceptance of one god, one creator.

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I debate the necessity of customs and traditions that plague nearly every religion. To me Christianity is not a church or book, but a state of mind and as long as you have the values that are essential to Christianity, the basic right and wrong, you are a Christian, whether you even know who Jesus is or was.

that is the very argument behind islam; and why abraham, moses, lot, jesus...etc are all considered muslims though they did not have a quran.  except islam literally means "submission to god".

now, i don't agree with your position 100% because it denies many possibilities, and takes a short sighted view of existence.  but i agree with the gist of it.

People have a hard time accepting what goes far against what they have been taught as right for so long. It is no easier for a muslim to accept the trinity than it is for an American to accept Islam. I just don't think it's hate that makes it hard for people to accept.

a muslim has been taught that the trinity is not true by the quran. a muslim would have to elevate an individual that they were taught was a man to god status.

in contrast a christian looking at the quran is seeing the same ideas that were presented in the old and new testaments organized in a slightly different way.  the nature of jesus is clarified, but not directly demolished.  his birth, virgin mother, divinity all remain.  it's only his status relative to god (inferior, as everything else in the universes are) is changed.

i think your argument breaks down in that sense.  infinite's point is that it is something other than the rejection of the ideas in the quran that prevents more americans from embracing islam. 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 11:38:19 AM by nibs »
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Arkan

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i dont accept islam cuz youre a bunch of fucking kooks

oh yeah and i hope u get disgusted by this and go jerk off to the koran




Well what do we have here? Another bigoted WIGGER. Surprise, surprise.



i dont accept islam cuz youre a bunch of fucking kooks
sounds about right


And another one.



The real question is why many Arabs in the Middle East don't accept Christianity.

Oops I forgot.......if they do they are thrown in jail.

Oh shit, even the flag and all? Well I be damned, its the Grand Wizard himself!!!
 

h cottie is bac-tive?

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i dont accept islam cuz youre a bunch of fucking kooks

oh yeah and i hope u get disgusted by this and go jerk off to the koran




Well what do we have here? Another bigoted WIGGER. Surprise, surprise.



i dont accept islam cuz youre a bunch of fucking kooks
sounds about right


And another one.



The real question is why many Arabs in the Middle East don't accept Christianity.

Oops I forgot.......if they do they are thrown in jail.

Oh shit, even the flag and all? Well I be damned, its the Grand Wizard himself!!!


LOL you get a prop 4 makin me laugh.

I WENT TO STAPLES CENTER WEN I WAS WALKING MY GOLD RAG FALL OF MY POCKET AND THE GROUND WAS WET TO AND DIRTY MY RAG GOT DIRTY A LIL BIT PULL IT IT BACK AND MAKE SURE IT WOULD NOT DROP AGAIN ROCKING MY RAG AGAIN HOMIE 8
 

Wessia4LiaNia Chieee Chieee

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I see evidence of this everyday.  Alot of white people I know, no matter how wrecked and destroyed their lives are, no matter how dumb and ignorant they are, they will never listen to anything an Arab would have to tell them. 

A white person would travel to the end of the Earth, frolicking to and fro, searching endlessly for something they will never find, but they would never think to ask an Arab about their religion.

Even if they are face down in the gutter somewhere trying to get a drag off of a dirty cigarette butt, they will still consider themselves as being better than the most refined Arab. 

You're wrong...see that what happens when u relate some people with a whole race. like u said
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Alot of white people I know,
  a lot doesn't means that everyone is ignorant to what the others have to say...I "met" Adisa Banjoko (the author of Lyrical Swords) like more than a year ago..and we talk about religion, about politics, about the media that "encourage" stupidity...and trust me is more likely to speak with people of other religion, race or fuck ..it's better to SPEAK 1st and then ACT. What i want to say is maybe you didn;t find the right White people...and from the way i see it..most of White people in America are dumb as fuck...shit you get rulled by a stupid head there. and many as him.
Lyrical Swords 4 Lia
 

Shallow

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the books provide guidance.  teachers provide guidance.  it's very easy to trick yourself into question, doubting and rejecting that which you feel is right.  we can even argue the nature of what is right and wrong because i don't think we agree here.



Then we have to wonder who or what taught people around the world how to be good. Either God sent different prophets not mentioned to places like China and North America (before Europe) of they figured it out on their own. Then again, maybe the Quran names prophets that had visited the Native Americans and taught them how to behave. I wouldn't know. Does it?





so for the record, the quran does not challenge the notion of a holy spirit.  it fully supports the notion of higher righteous and also malicious entities.  some translations make direct reference to the/a holy spirit.

the only difference between what you are saying and ideas supported by the quran is that the quran clearly states one creator, superior to all.  holy spirits, angels/jinns...all clearly superior to humans, more devine to humans, but subordinate to ultimate one creator.  the only point of contention between your statements and the quran is this insistence that the holy spirit and jesus are not just divine, but equal with god.  as opposed to divine yet lesser creations of god.


Well the Christian view of the Holy Spirit is that God is inside each and everyone one of us, (some Christians think it only applies to people that accept Christianity). I don't think the Quran states it that way. I could be wrong.



a key example is the book of joshua.  god orders joshua to conquer an insane amount of land, basically from egypt to iraq, including israel, jordan, lebanon, syria, iraq...etc.  states that he is on joshua's side and none can defeat him.  and thus a great israeli empire is founded.  that story about the walls of jehrico crumbling down is basically a war god commands his people to undertake, and then assists them with, for example.  that battle and others are all detailed in joshua.


This is why I see Jesus as superior to the rest. He came to right the wrongs done by the former prophets. Just like the Gospel states that Jesus said Moses added things he deemed appropriate, I feel people like Joshua took what was given and ran with it. It's one thing for God to plague a city and another to capture and execute other human beings. Of course the entire Old Testament could be historical fiction. Something I'm more than open too. (For the record I'm also open to the Gospel to be that I just don't believe it is, where as I don't know what I believe about the Old Testament. Either way I don't belive it is an integral part of life to believe in it as completely factual.)

Even if I did believe it all, I would still see Jesus as a step up from those that came before him, as someone who spread his message and had it grow with out violence or anything that contradicts that message.  With Mohammad I see a step back.


To me this shows that Jesus knew there would be a time where the roles would get reversed for some and there would be instances where the woman would be head or equal to the head of the family. Based on what I've read and what I was told, nowhere in the Quran could you even make an argument for that because it makes it clear that the man is the head of the household. (Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd hate to restate this if it isn't true).

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Auxiliary? Are we talking about the same word that means something is not essential? What exactly is an auxiliary beluef of the Quran with regards to the fundmanetal belief of the Trinity? I hope you're talking about prayer and charity because if you're talking about one God vs the essence of God then your beliefs are just as fundamental as mine.

the qu'ran says alot of things.  what's most essential is that there is one god, and acceptance of this and submission to god's will is the one religion.  and that is islam.  denying that is catastrophic.

additionally it prescribes the daily prayers, charitable donations...etc; because "you will be better for it".  it also gives direction on handling issues such as contracts, marriages, inheritance...etc. 

the quran also presents the idea that there are multiple heavens, or multiple levels of heavenly reward, which represents how close one is to god; which reflects ones level of spiritual development.

the qu'ran also states that there is no obligation in religion.

when you put all these ideas together; it isn't that the qu'ran is commanding certain behaviours absolutely, but providing instruction that will help condition and facilitate the greatest amount of spiritual growth.  thus it has it's core ideas:
one god, submit to god's will

important ideas:
daily prayers, charitable donations...etc; which you will be better for adhering to...

auxiliary ideas:
dealing with maintaining a household and a community.

when you mention your aversion to war and violence, the qu'rans position there is simple.  injustice, oppression; these are things that are abhorrant to god.  to engage in war in order to end oppression or injustice is to act in a manner consistent with god's will.  for you to reduce everything to "violence" == "bad" is for you to deny the true nature of existence, to put too great of a value on human life which while precious is also temporary, and could be viewed as complicity in violating god's will.


This doesn't answer my first question about a woman's role. I don't see how an eternal book written by God could ever become dated.


clearly god does not need you to pray.  you would be better off for praying as it is a form of worship, it keeps your mind on god, it facilitates your spiritual growth.  some translations of the qu'ran mention meditating at night in addition to praying.  it's better for your spiritual growth.
 


What I never got is that if God hears and sees everything and you know that he hears and sees everything then everytime you talk you are talking to him, thus praying. If I have something to tell someone and there is a third person in the room and I know that person is listening then aren't I telling that third person what I told the person I am talking to you. That's why I don't really believe in prayer. In a sense I am praying all the time, whether I want to or not.




with christianity, noone is challenging the teachings of christ; however, if you insist upon advancing this notion of a trinity...then the fundamental beliefs of that trinity doctrine are in question.

So are the fundamental beliefs that God exists. We have no proof but we advance the notion none the less.

in the context of christian beliefs vs the quran, the acceptance of god is granted.  the debate is about the nature of christ.

So? The idea of a trinity is no less questionable than the idea of no trinity. Christians believe that there is and Muslims do not. How is not not questionable that there is only on aspect of God?


   

that is the very argument behind islam; and why abraham, moses, lot, jesus...etc are all considered muslims though they did not have a quran.  except islam literally means "submission to god".

now, i don't agree with your position 100% because it denies many possibilities, and takes a short sighted view of existence.  but i agree with the gist of it.

My position denies nothing. It accepts everything as a possibility.

People have a hard time accepting what goes far against what they have been taught as right for so long. It is no easier for a muslim to accept the trinity than it is for an American to accept Islam. I just don't think it's hate that makes it hard for people to accept.

a muslim has been taught that the trinity is not true by the quran. a muslim would have to elevate an individual that they were taught was a man to god status.

in contrast a christian looking at the quran is seeing the same ideas that were presented in the old and new testaments organized in a slightly different way.  the nature of jesus is clarified, but not directly demolished.  his birth, virgin mother, divinity all remain.  it's only his status relative to god (inferior, as everything else in the universes are) is changed.
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So if someone told you that God was not an all powerful being and that he was just some magician who created this world and then left it to us to do as we wish would you accept that so easily, even if what that person tells you complies with every other aspect of the Quran? Christians believe Jesus is God. To make him into a man is asking a lot for people to accept. It'd be like saying that Allah was a sub God that was ordered to serve Arabs, while Buddah was his equal but ordered to serve Asians, and Ganesh to Indians in the same regard, all the while greater God is above them all calling the shots. It wouldn't work for Muslims just like Islam doesn't work for Christians.



i think your argument breaks down in that sense.  infinite's point is that it is something other than the rejection of the ideas in the quran that prevents more americans from embracing islam. 

Infinite was generalizing while he was take a stand against generalizing. He is a hypocrite and I won't stand by and let his hypocrisies go without notice. I don't even know that all Americans don't thinkthat way but may main reason for responding to him was to show that he cannot know that they do. Obviously I don't feel that most Americans are racist but I could be wrong, something Infinite never seems to grasp; that he could be wrong.