Author Topic: do the muslims on this board...  (Read 1220 times)

coola

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Re: do the muslims on this board...
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2006, 06:26:18 PM »
^ so the anti-christ will be able to do all that ? wont the jews see him as the christ ? haha the jews are fucked..
 

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Re: do the muslims on this board...
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2006, 06:58:45 AM »
i find it hard to foresee a need to replace anything that is said in the qu'ran.


And many Christians find it hard to replace anything in the Bible. I personally find it hard to to denounce anything in the gospel. The whole Son of God thing is either believed or not, but cannot be logically dismissed or proven. The bottom line is there is nothing in the Gospel that I disagree with morally. I can't say that for any other religious text I've read. All I'm trying to say is that you can see why I personally would have no interest ingoing from Christianity to Islam, (not that you are saying I should).

Someone new came along and claimed to be a prohet and claimed that Jesus was just a prophet and of course Christians would reject that, much like Muslims who have been told the Quran is the unaltered word of God, when in fact the only thing you can proove is that it is believed to be the unaltered word of God. You don't know for sure, but you believe, and that's fine.


I read lines like this from Surah 4:34;

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.


Even in apoligist translations it still comes out that the man is the head and his will is more important htan the woman's. Now when Paul wrote shit like this in his letters I can accept it because Paul was a man of his times who was doing what he felt was right but not knowledgeable enough to understand what is to come and how the world will change. I see Moses and the other previous prophets the same way. Men who knew what they were told and added their own takes because they felt it was right. I can't accept anything I feel is immoral as the true word of God.


(This post was not an attack to instigate but to explain what I believe and why).
 

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Re: do the muslims on this board...
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2006, 11:10:29 AM »
And many Christians find it hard to replace anything in the Bible. I personally find it hard to to denounce anything in the gospel. The whole Son of God thing is either believed or not, but cannot be logically dismissed or proven.

the son of god is largely a semantic issue.  god is not a man, god does not have semen, god does not have sons in the sense that man has sons.
many people have interpretted the relationship of jesus and god, and jesus words in a far different manner.  you portray this as an all or nothing issue when it's not. 

The bottom line is there is nothing in the Gospel that I disagree with morally.

that is an interesting standard which is based largely on your own conjecture.   one lesson that the qu'ran teaches is that often your moral decisions are often wrong if you do not have complete understanding of a situation.  the point to religion is not necessarily to find what agrees with you, but to find what is true and understand why it's true.

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Someone new came along and claimed to be a prohet and claimed that Jesus was just a prophet and of course Christians would reject that, much like Muslims who have been told the Quran is the unaltered word of God, when in fact the only thing you can proove is that it is believed to be the unaltered word of God. You don't know for sure, but you believe, and that's fine.

the qu'ran is more than just "unaltered".  the bible represents mostly history based on observation, and even the accuracy of this history has been debated.
even the new testatement is mostly observation of jesus and part of what he said.  this is more comparable to hadiths then the quran.

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I read lines like this from Surah 4:34;

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

Even in apologist translations it still comes out that the man is the head and his will is more important htan the woman's.

you are looking for laws rather than guidance.   men and women are different, their roles are different.  in no way does that sura say that the man should disregard the advice and counsel of his wife.  in no way does it say that a man should completely dominate his wife.  what it says is that ultimately the man has the final authority which the woman should respect.  the actual dynamics of the relationship; how decisions are debated, how the woman's opinion is valued..etc are completely unspecified.  you suggest that women have no rights in a relationship, the reality is that the relationship could easily be 50.5%/49.5%.  all it says is the man sets the tone. 
for you to disagree is for you to deny that that it allows you to be as liberal as you wish in the relationship.  additionally, it in no way condones abusive or irrational behavior.  it relies on the husband to be just.  women also have the right to seek divorce if the marriage isn't working; if the man is a bad husband.

it's hard to understand what you have a problem with.  if people use scripture to justify bad behavior, it's not that their actions are good and just; it is that they are abusing the scripture.  this is the exact same idea h cottie has been trying to use to explain why terrorists are wrong, and incompatible with islam.

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I can't accept anything I feel is immoral as the true word of God.

in many ways the quran is malleable where you suggest that it is firm.  saying the man is the head of the household is not the same as saying that the man must dominate and terrorize.  it's nowhere near the same.

the qu'ran has an interesting parable about morality:
sura 18:60-82 (khalifah)
Moses said to his servant, "I will not rest until I reach the point where the two rivers meet, no matter how long it takes."   
When they reached the point where they met, they forgot their fish, and it found its way back to the river, sneakily.   
After they passed that point, he said to his servant, "Let us have lunch. All this traveling has thoroughly exhausted us."   
He said, "Remember when we sat by the rock back there? I paid no attention to the fish. It was the devil who made me forget it, and it found its way back to the river, strangely."
(Moses) said, "That was the place we were looking for." They traced their steps back.
They found one of our servants, whom we blessed with mercy, and bestowed upon him from our own knowledge.   
Moses said to him, "Can I follow you, that you may teach me some of the knowledge and the guidance bestowed upon you?"   
He said, "You cannot stand to be with me.   
"How can you stand that which you do not comprehend?"   
He said, "You will find me, GOD willing, patient. I will not disobey any command you give me."
He said, "If you follow me, then you shall not ask me about anything, unless I choose to tell you about it."
So they went. When they boarded a ship, he bore a hole in it. He said, "Did you bore a hole in it to drown its people? You have committed something terrible."   
He said, "Did I not say that you cannot stand to be with me?"   
He said, "I am sorry. Do not punish me for my forgetfulness; do not be too harsh with me."
So they went. When they met a young boy, he killed him. He said, "Why did you kill such an innocent person, who did not kill another person? You have committed something horrendous."
He said, "Did I not tell you that you cannot stand to be with me?"
He said, "If I ask you about anything else, then do not keep me with you. You have seen enough apologies from me."   
So they went. When they reached a certain community, they asked the people for food, but they refused to host them. Soon, they found a wall about to collapse, and he fixed it. He said, "You could have demanded a wage for that!"   
He said, "Now we have to part company. But I will explain to you everything you could not stand.
"As for the ship, it belonged to poor fishermen, and I wanted to render it defective. There was a king coming after them, who was confiscating every ship, forcibly.   
"As for the boy, his parents were good believers, and we saw that he was going to burden them with his transgression and disbelief.*   
"We willed that your Lord substitute in his place another son; one who is better in righteousness and kindness.   
"As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city. Under it, there was a treasure that belonged to them. Because their father was a righteous man, your Lord wanted them to grow up and attain full strength, then extract their treasure. Such is mercy from your Lord. I did none of that of my own volition. This is the explanation of the things you could not stand."   


ultimately noone knows everything.  it's often more advantageous to look at a scripture in terms of "why is this right?" as opposed to looking for reasons to say it's wrong.

if ultimately you are going with your morality why even bother with the scriptures at all?   
   

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Re: do the muslims on this board...
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2006, 02:51:49 PM »
There was no point to respond to me. I made it very clear that I was just expressing my personal beliefs and in no way wanted to change yours or say yours were wrong. If you responded for the sake of anyone else reading so you didn't appear to give up then I understand. But you can't give me answers that are outside your realm. You can't prove anything about Islam as being true and it's pointless to try. You may go in with the implication that I know you mean "you believe" but for people looking on they may not see that and cofuse your beliefs with you attempting to present cold hard facts. In general you should try to say things that would imply Islam is more pure because the Bible was changed while the Quran wasn't, because you don't know.

There is one thing you said that I reallly had a problem with;

"in many ways the quran is malleable where you suggest that it is firm.  saying the man is the head of the household is not the same as saying that the man must dominate and terrorize.  it's nowhere near the same."


I just presented the quote and said I disagree with it, and that I have read the apologist interpretations and still disagreed. I never once said that the Quran endorses domination or terrorism with in the houshold. If it is 50.5% to 49.5% I still think it's wrong, and even if the woman can find a better husband she is still inferior, slightly inferior or not. I strongly believe that a woman lead household, where the woman can have the final say can be just as strong as a male lead household. I personally want would like a completely equal household where no decisions are made unless we both agree, with compromises being necessary from both, and I personally don't want to believe in a God that says it's okay for my word to take precedent over my wife's. It's just my view.


To answer your last question; "if ultimately you are going with your morality why even bother with the scriptures at all?"

I don't bother with them. I read them to know them for educational puposes. I belive when Jesus said he cam for the sinners not the righteous, claiming htat good people existed and could exist with out his teachings because they already knew the teachings. I take a very philosphical approach to Christianity and it suits me well. It doesn't have to suit you.


 

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Re: do the muslims on this board...
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2006, 09:44:09 PM »
There was no point to respond to me. I made it very clear that I was just expressing my personal beliefs and in no way wanted to change yours or say yours were wrong. If you responded for the sake of anyone else reading so you didn't appear to give up then I understand.

i am not trying to convert you.  i respond simply to indicate that where you suggest there are questions there are actually answers.  i respond for completeness sake.  for the record, i have no problem at all with you being a christian.  i don't believe that people can be told what to do, people seek and they find.    i am not telling you to convert, i am illustrating the misconceptions in your concerns.

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But you can't give me answers that are outside your realm. You can't prove anything about Islam as being true and it's pointless to try.

my realm is infinite.  you have made statements that were clear misconceptions and those were addressable.

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You may go in with the implication that I know you mean "you believe" but for people looking on they may not see that and cofuse your beliefs with you attempting to present cold hard facts.

i present cold hard facts.

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In general you should try to say things that would imply Islam is more pure because the Bible was changed while the Quran wasn't, because you don't know.

the bible is presented as a history and the actual accuracy of that history is debated; the meaning largely has to be inferred.  the new testament suffers slightly less from this the old.  the quran is presented as instructions with historical references.  these are the facts.

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I just presented the quote and said I disagree with it, and that I have read the apologist interpretations and still disagreed. I never once said that the Quran endorses domination or terrorism with in the houshold. If it is 50.5% to 49.5% I still think it's wrong, and even if the woman can find a better husband she is still inferior, slightly inferior or not. I strongly believe that a woman lead household, where the woman can have the final say can be just as strong as a male lead household.

you can structure your marriage however your wish.  you could cede all the power to your wife.  the point is not to create a strict law; the point is to create a mode of thinking.  in countless scriptures throughout the quran there will be instruction and then a fallback position, and possibly another fallback position.  it provides a structure, it provides a mode of thinking.  the quran states directly "there is no obligation in religion".  if you want to cede authority to your wife 50/50 or 0/100 this is not some sort inherent sin on it's own.  it would depend on your own rationale.  ofcourse being the man it is your decision whether or not to cede the authority, but it is something that you could do.

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I personally want would like a completely equal household where no decisions are made unless we both agree, with compromises being necessary from both, and I personally don't want to believe in a God that says it's okay for my word to take precedent over my wife's. It's just my view.

you have this idea about islam that in many ways is misguided.  the quran is not incompatible with the sorts of notions you put forward.  there is actually alot of debate in the muslim world about the issue of women's rights and shari'a law for example.  in iran the younger generations have been pushing towards more liberal interpretations of shari'a law.  in palestine there had been some backlash when hamas took over as to whether hamas would try to impose a more strict form of shari'a law and force women to wear hijabs...there are liberal muslims, there are feminist muslims...etc.  your criticisms here are misguided. while the quran is accepted as the word of god, some of the quran is actually contextual, making direct references to situations that were immediately relevant at the time.  this is also allows for some of the malleability.

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To answer your last question; "if ultimately you are going with your morality why even bother with the scriptures at all?"

I don't bother with them. I read them to know them for educational puposes. I belive when Jesus said he cam for the sinners not the righteous, claiming htat good people existed and could exist with out his teachings because they already knew the teachings. I take a very philosphical approach to Christianity and it suits me well. It doesn't have to suit you.

i maintain that religion has more to offer than just morality.  religion also tries to impart wisdom, knowledge and truth.  this is far different than simple morality.

i
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coola

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Re: do the muslims on this board...
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2006, 11:47:13 PM »
^ i've been saying from the longest of times... the qu'ran does not state things in black and white. it does not call a spade a spade, if it did, then there wouldnt be such debate over womens rights.

the moral teachings in the new testament are clear, and do not offer mis-understanding. it is plain and clear what is right and wrong.

the bible is actually very strict in it's teachings aswell, one example is; if you are married, and you look around at other women erotically, remove the eye you look at them with, if you steal, remove the hand you steal with. it is plain and clear.

what i will never understand, is the whole dividing up assets stuff in case of death. there is nothing about dividing assets up in the bible, because dividing up assets is not important, what do you think assets mean to God ? everybody knows you cant take possessions to the afterlife. what is the point in putting such things in a book supposedly of the word of god ? they could have just made that an arabic law or whatever... but including it in a 'holy' document ?
 

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Re: do the muslims on this board...
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2006, 04:55:40 AM »
^ i've been saying from the longest of times... the qu'ran does not state things in black and white. it does not call a spade a spade, if it did, then there wouldnt be such debate over womens rights.

the qu'ran states things in black & white, the debate is whether the qu'ran should be followed to the letter of the law or in the spirit of the law.

for example, if you look at sura 24:31:
And say to the believing women that they restrain their looks and guard their private parts, and that they display not their beauty or their embellishment except that which is apparent thereof, and that they draw their head-coverings over their bosoms, and that they display not their beauty or their embellishment save to their husbands, or to their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or women who are their companions, or those that their right hands possess, or such of male attendants as have no desire for women, or young children who have not yet attained knowledge of the hidden parts of women. And that they strike not their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may become known. And turn ye to ALLAH all together, O believers, that you may prosper.

the sher ali translation makes direct reference to the head covering which i understand is mentioned in the original arabic.  this is why in the stricter islamic states women wear the burqa's or atleast the hajib.

if you look at a different translation (khalifah)
And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.*

here he simply tries to capture the spirit of the message which is that women should dress modestly.

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the bible is actually very strict in it's teachings aswell, one example is; if you are married, and you look around at other women erotically, remove the eye you look at them with, if you steal, remove the hand you steal with. it is plain and clear.

the letter of the law in the qu'ran is similarly strict (cutting the hand of the thief, beating an adulterer and adulteress)
The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.*   
The adulterer will end up marrying an adulteress or an idol worshiper, and the adulteress will end up marrying an adulterer or an idol worshiper. This is prohibited for the believers.
Those who accuse married women of adultery, then fail to produce four witnesses, you shall whip them eighty lashes, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.


the qu'ran is specific.   

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what i will never understand, is the whole dividing up assets stuff in case of death. there is nothing about dividing assets up in the bible, because dividing up assets is not important, what do you think assets mean to God ? everybody knows you cant take possessions to the afterlife. what is the point in putting such things in a book supposedly of the word of god ? they could have just made that an arabic law or whatever... but including it in a 'holy' document ?

god advising how to life.  appreciate this life, and prepare for the next.
people debate whether a daughter could now get equal share in an inheritence, as women now have greater roles in terms of their careers and rely less on their husbands; marriages aren't arranged...etc.  people debate whether the qu'ran should be followed to the letter of the law, or the spirit which was about fairness and equity.  if a daughter were going to have a husband to take care of her, while a son a family he would be obligated to take care of, the proportions in the qu'ran address that well. in a different time, where the roles of women and men differ, does it make sense to adhere simply to the spirit of fairness.

sura 2:256
There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.


that is really the key to islam.  all the other directions and instructions are things that are better for you to do.  things that prepare the right frame of mind and right disposition.
"a four letter word is going out to every single enemy" - kam
 

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Re: do the muslims on this board...
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2006, 07:14:18 PM »
i am not trying to convert you.  i respond simply to indicate that where you suggest there are questions there are actually answers.  i respond for completeness sake.  for the record, i have no problem at all with you being a christian.  i don't believe that people can be told what to do, people seek and they find.    i am not telling you to convert, i am illustrating the misconceptions in your concerns.

I don't think you are trying to convert me. I just know you can't answer questions that can't be answered any anyone. I choose to belive this and you choose to believe that.


my realm is infinite.  you have made statements that were clear misconceptions and those were addressable.

i present cold hard facts.

Your realm is infinite? You sound like Infinite maybe, but your realm is not infinite. You cannot answer all of life's questions, and that's what I meant when I said outside of your realm.

It may be a fact that the Quran says things but that doesn't make the thing the Quran says are facts. The very existence of God is not a fact. You can belive the Quran has never been changed but you can't prove it.

"god is not a man, god does not have semen, god does not have sons in the sense that man has sons."


I never implied that any of this is true, but I can't prove any of this isn't. I'm not God, and have never met God, and can't begin to understand what he is capable of being and doing.

"many people have interpretted the relationship of jesus and god, and jesus words in a far different manner.  you portray this as an all or nothing issue when it's not."


Why did I portray it as such. What Jesus is or was before he entered the body of the baby born to Mary is not clearly explain. The Gospel of John states that it was the word of God that entered the body, and that the word came from God and was God at the same time. What that means exactly is anybody's guess and can be interpreted in different ways. It makes enough sense to me for me to believe it and I do.

the bible is presented as a history and the actual accuracy of that history is debated; the meaning largely has to be inferred.  the new testament suffers slightly less from this the old.  the quran is presented as instructions with historical references.  these are the facts.

I could care less about the Old Testmament. I believe in the Gospel, which means the Good Word of Jesus Christ which is the Good Word of God as well, as far as my beliefs go. I have very philosophical views of where that Good Word can come from, and I don't thinkit has to come from reading the 4 scriptures in the Bible.


you can structure your marriage however your wish.  you could cede all the power to your wife.  the point is not to create a strict law; the point is to create a mode of thinking.  in countless scriptures throughout the quran there will be instruction and then a fallback position, and possibly another fallback position.  it provides a structure, it provides a mode of thinking.  the quran states directly "there is no obligation in religion".  if you want to cede authority to your wife 50/50 or 0/100 this is not some sort inherent sin on it's own.  it would depend on your own rationale.  ofcourse being the man it is your decision whether or not to cede the authority, but it is something that you could do.

It's not about whether I could if I wanted to but whether she could if she wanted to and the type of God I want to believe in. I don't agree with that and that's just how I feel.


you have this idea about islam that in many ways is misguided.  the quran is not incompatible with the sorts of notions you put forward.  there is actually alot of debate in the muslim world about the issue of women's rights and shari'a law for example.  in iran the younger generations have been pushing towards more liberal interpretations of shari'a law.  in palestine there had been some backlash when hamas took over as to whether hamas would try to impose a more strict form of shari'a law and force women to wear hijabs...there are liberal muslims, there are feminist muslims...etc.  your criticisms here are misguided. while the quran is accepted as the word of god, some of the quran is actually contextual, making direct references to situations that were immediately relevant at the time.  this is also allows for some of the malleability.

You have made it very clear that the quote I presented stands true and places the male above the female, even if ony slightly, so how is that a misconception on my part?


i maintain that religion has more to offer than just morality.  religion also tries to impart wisdom, knowledge and truth.  this is far different than simple morality.

i


It's not about being just about morality, it's about me being able to easily more see what it moral and what is immoral, rather than what is wise and what is unwise. Wisdom is more complicated than morality as far as I'm concerned, and wisdom, great wisdom, comes from many non-religious places. Now I don't know whether that means that because the source wasn't religious that the wisdom isn't part of religion, but I'm not pretending to know. Maybe wisdom is like morality (my version of morality anyway), in that it is from God and put inside all of us and becomes apparent to some before it does for others. I don't know. I don't know why we're here, or where exactly we are going, but I believe that if I live a certain way that those answers will be shown to me one day, and until then I will try my best to live a good life and pay the highest tribute to God the best way I feel I can; by trying to get others to live a good life (good as in a life filled with morality, logic, and practicality, which in turn may be the epitome of what is wise). I will not reject any wisdom, knowledge or truth that comes my way, whether it agrees with it or not, and decide for myself if I think it is wise, smart, or true.
 

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Re: do the muslims on this board...
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2006, 09:52:14 PM »
. I strongly believe that a woman lead household,  ;where the woman can have the final say

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Re: do the muslims on this board...
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2006, 10:10:47 AM »
I don't think you are trying to convert me. I just know you can't answer questions that can't be answered any anyone. I choose to belive this and you choose to believe that.

i believe we are in agreement.  i'm certain that there are people who know these answers; and i am also certain that it is possible to find the answers to life's greatest question if one seeks in the right sources.  the key is that this sort of realization happens at the individual level and is something that cannot be told or directed.  the knowledge that you speak of is not some sort of intellectual concept to be understood, but a state of mind, a state of understanding to be realized. 
in many ways various religions have tried to capture both the descriptions of these realizations; and also direction to finding and verifying these answers on one's own. 

"god is not a man, god does not have semen, god does not have sons in the sense that man has sons."

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I never implied that any of this is true, but I can't prove any of this isn't. I'm not God, and have never met God, and can't begin to understand what he is capable of being and doing.

the bible does not claim that god is a man with semen.  the bible clearly states that mary knew no man.  the debate over whether or not jesus is god's son is largely a semantic debate over the usage of the word "son".  neither the bible nor the quran suggest that mary was impregnated by a man.  there is no debate in the qu'ran and bible as to the nature of the conception of jesus.  it's a semantic argument over the usage of words.

"many people have interpretted the relationship of jesus and god, and jesus words in a far different manner.  you portray this as an all or nothing issue when it's not."

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Why did I portray it as such. What Jesus is or was before he entered the body of the baby born to Mary is not clearly explain. The Gospel of John states that it was the word of God that entered the body, and that the word came from God and was God at the same time. What that means exactly is anybody's guess and can be interpreted in different ways. It makes enough sense to me for me to believe it and I do.

the one idea that i want to convey here is that the qu'ran and the bible do not disagree to the nature of jesus at all.  the qu'ran also refers to jesus as "the word of god":

sura 4:171
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.


the only disagreement that exists  is the notion that jesus is equal to god and should also be worshipped.  the notion of the trinity.  the qu'ran completely supports the divine nature of jesus in all ways.
when people suggest that the interpretation of christ in the qu'ran is radically different from ideas held by some christians...this is wrong, and not bore out by studying the text to the quran.

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It's not about whether I could if I wanted to but whether she could if she wanted to and the type of God I want to believe in. I don't agree with that and that's just how I feel.

this is the root of our current disagreement.  the old testament, the qu'ran...etc.  there is this idea that god's prophets, and religions in general often tell people what they need to hear for their circumstance.  the qu'ran directly has this idea of different people getting prophets and messengers at different times depending on their circumstances...if you look at the history of how the qu'ran was revealed (which was in stages over time) one theme has been that various suras were revealed to the prophet muhammad to address and resolve issues and concerns that were going on at the time.  there are verses in sura's that deal directly with people interacting with the prophet and his wives...etc.   this is why the qu'ran does not consider it an inconsistency that the various prophets throughout history have said different things.  it isn't an issue of god changing his mind; this is not the nature of god.  it is an issue of prophets providing divinely inspired guidance to the people.

the basic idea that i think you are missing is this.  the qu'ran isn't about dictating the terms of your marriage; however the qu'ran does provide guidance about the structure of marriages at that time, and that advice is still heeded today.

in modern times; when marriages are not arranged by parents, the matter in which you structure your marriage would be less influenced by that guidance and more dictated by your own wishes; so it's a moot issue.

you've suggested that muslims believe in "the sort of god" that wishes to see women dominated and subservient.

god does not wish in this sort of whimsical manner.   what the qu'ran states is that god wishes for his creations to be loving towards each other and to worship him.

everything else is basically advice that people would be better for heeding, and warnings that people should be wary of ignoring; because the world is not perfect, and people do not abide by god's will.

what i am challenging is your suggestion of the qu'ran's portrayal of god, when across the muslim world's there are numerous examples of the nature of god being appreciated in a vastly different manner than what you suggest.

i heard a sufi shaykh speak and he characterized the judiasm/christianity/islam relationship thusly:
abraham/moses were about living by the law
jesus was about looking towards the afterlife
muhammad was about balancing the preparation for the spiritual afterlife with appreciating the physical world and existence as well.

"a four letter word is going out to every single enemy" - kam
 

Shallow

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Re: do the muslims on this board...
« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2006, 06:04:08 PM »


i believe we are in agreement.  i'm certain that there are people who know these answers; and i am also certain that it is possible to find the answers to life's greatest question if one seeks in the right sources.  the key is that this sort of realization happens at the individual level and is something that cannot be told or directed.  the knowledge that you speak of is not some sort of intellectual concept to be understood, but a state of mind, a state of understanding to be realized. 
in many ways various religions have tried to capture both the descriptions of these realizations; and also direction to finding and verifying these answers on one's own. 



Many wise people who have dedicated their lives to finding these answers have come to different solutions. That right there tells me that we can't truly figure it out. I've always hada theory that God purposely put people on earth with different beliefs and that no matter what religion, if any, you can logically conclude what you should or shouldn't do in every situation. There are some that tricky like if someone is about to shoot you and you have a gun should you try and shoot him first to save yourself or let him kill you since you havea devout belief in the afterlife? Would it be suicide since you are letting yourself die, or sacrifice since you are sure you are getting to heaven but not sure if your attacker will and you want to give him a chance to repent and redeem himself?. Our human instinct would tell us to shoot back but if we absolutely knew for certain that we would be in paradise we'd probably let him shoot.   For the most part though the answers aren't as hard to figure out.

the bible does not claim that god is a man with semen.  the bible clearly states that mary knew no man.  the debate over whether or not jesus is god's son is largely a semantic debate over the usage of the word "son".  neither the bible nor the quran suggest that mary was impregnated by a man.  there is no debate in the qu'ran and bible as to the nature of the conception of jesus.  it's a semantic argument over the usage of words.

"many people have interpretted the relationship of jesus and god, and jesus words in a far different manner.  you portray this as an all or nothing issue when it's not."

I know what the Bible claims. I'm just saying if God can do anything then he should be able to become anything, and if he wanted to becaome a man with semen I don't see how he couldn't. I'm not saying that he has. I'm just saying he could.


and the Gospel of John is very clear about the origin of what became Jesus, and it's pretty much the essence of Christianity to believe that God was not pleased with the way his chosen prophets interpreted his word so he more or less sent his word down in the flesh, which meant he sent himself down so that we get it right. That's the belief anyway.


the one idea that i want to convey here is that the qu'ran and the bible do not disagree to the nature of jesus at all.  the qu'ran also refers to jesus as "the word of god":

sura 4:171
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.


the only disagreement that exists  is the notion that jesus is equal to god and should also be worshipped.  the notion of the trinity.  the qu'ran completely supports the divine nature of jesus in all ways.
when people suggest that the interpretation of christ in the qu'ran is radically different from ideas held by some christians...this is wrong, and not bore out by studying the text to the quran.

I never thought or implied that the Quran dismiss Jesus or disagrees with most of what Jesus is/was. I just don't see such a huge problem with the trinity. It could mean anything really, but as of now I see it as; Dan is Dan. Dan is also the house painter who lives down the street. And Dan is also the father of Nick. So what is Dan? Is he the house painter or Nick's dad? He's both, and he's Dan. I know this is a lot simpler than saying God is God and he is God's son, so how can the son be the father. You can't father yourself. I get it. But you also can't split a sea in two so people can walk through it or send angels from the sky to earth, but God can, so maybe he can be the father and the son. I just don't question it since if I question tat I may as well question everything else God supposedly did.


this is the root of our current disagreement.  the old testament, the qu'ran...etc.  there is this idea that god's prophets, and religions in general often tell people what they need to hear for their circumstance.  the qu'ran directly has this idea of different people getting prophets and messengers at different times depending on their circumstances...if you look at the history of how the qu'ran was revealed (which was in stages over time) one theme has been that various suras were revealed to the prophet muhammad to address and resolve issues and concerns that were going on at the time.  there are verses in sura's that deal directly with people interacting with the prophet and his wives...etc.   this is why the qu'ran does not consider it an inconsistency that the various prophets throughout history have said different things.  it isn't an issue of god changing his mind; this is not the nature of god.  it is an issue of prophets providing divinely inspired guidance to the people.


So Muhammad said to do that while he was under the influence of God? I thought the Quran was the direct word of God and not Muhammad, and that Muhammad had his own teachings in another book.

the basic idea that i think you are missing is this.  the qu'ran isn't about dictating the terms of your marriage; however the qu'ran does provide guidance about the structure of marriages at that time, and that advice is still heeded today.

in modern times; when marriages are not arranged by parents, the matter in which you structure your marriage would be less influenced by that guidance and more dictated by your own wishes; so it's a moot issue.


So then why wouldn't the Quran state that this is a "for the times" suggestion? Or does it? And if it doesn't identify which is for the times and which isn't then who is to say what is timeless and what isn't. I know people that still live with a very sexist mindest (Muslim and Christian). Blatant hypocrites who would beat up there sister's or future daughters for having sex but have no problem deflowering young sisters and daughters of other men. I guess I don't like it when people like that can look to spiritual scripts and interpret justfication for their actions. When a Christian takes various quotes from Paul and point out something that makes it okay for them to act that way, I just say show me where Jesus said it was okay and I'll leave you alone. They usually ignmore me for a while and hope I forget. (I have a lot of loser friends).

you've suggested that muslims believe in "the sort of god" that wishes to see women dominated and subservient.

god does not wish in this sort of whimsical manner.   what the qu'ran states is that god wishes for his creations to be loving towards each other and to worship him.

I never said that they should be dominated or hurt. I just said that they should be seen as 100% equal. Anything a man is allowed to do according to God, a woman should be given that same permission.




what i am challenging is your suggestion of the qu'ran's portrayal of god, when across the muslim world's there are numerous examples of the nature of god being appreciated in a vastly different manner than what you suggest.

i heard a sufi shaykh speak and he characterized the judiasm/christianity/islam relationship thusly:
abraham/moses were about living by the law
jesus was about looking towards the afterlife
muhammad was about balancing the preparation for the spiritual afterlife with appreciating the physical world and existence as well.




I don't doubt that there are many muslims, maybe even most musims, that don't follow anything immoral. I guess I see it as with Islam a person has to almost rise above some of the things Muhammad did or said to be as righteous as they can be, where in Christianity a person can't even come close to being as righteous as Jesus. For this I cannot call Jesus and Muhammad equals and have to see Jesus as superior.

P.S. When I say rise above, I mean see a verse like Sura 4:34 where it says you should scourge or admonish a wife that rebels and say; no I'd rather treat my wife as an equal instead of leading her, since I am no better than her, and since I don't want to raise my daughters to be less than ther future husbands as far as raising the family goes. I didn't mean you have to become a better person than Muhammad was.
 

nibs

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Re: do the muslims on this board...
« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2006, 10:03:57 AM »
Many wise people who have dedicated their lives to finding these answers have come to different solutions. That right there tells me that we can't truly figure it out.

i think that there are many valid solutions to life's questions, some different and some contrasting.  life is what you make it, religion is what you make it as well.

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I've always hada theory that God purposely put people on earth with different beliefs and that no matter what religion, if any, you can logically conclude what you should or shouldn't do in every situation.
 There are some that tricky like if someone is about to shoot you and you have a gun should you try and shoot him first to save yourself or let him kill you since you havea devout belief in the afterlife? Would it be suicide since you are letting yourself die, or sacrifice since you are sure you are getting to heaven but not sure if your attacker will and you want to give him a chance to repent and redeem himself?. Our human instinct would tell us to shoot back but if we absolutely knew for certain that we would be in paradise we'd probably let him shoot.   For the most part though the answers aren't as hard to figure out.

i think the right thing to do is the decision that is made that is selfless.  decisions that are made out of selfishness and malice are what is wrong.

sometimes people will make horrifically destructive decisions with the purest of intentions.  possibly because of ignorance, possibly because they are misguided.  the ultimate reward requires both wisdom and pure intentions.

there is an interesting hindu parable that suggests that the best thing to do in your murder suicide scenario would be to shoot and kill your assailaint in order to prevent him from injuring his soul by incurring negative karma from assaulting you in malice.   hinduism has the belief that the soul is eternal, the physical body is a false identity, and while life is precious and suffering is only imagined; it is impossible to actually harm another person's true self in this physical realm.  so it all works out.

there are alot of varying ideas on how to address those sorts of situations. 

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and the Gospel of John is very clear about the origin of what became Jesus, and it's pretty much the essence of Christianity to believe that God was not pleased with the way his chosen prophets interpreted his word so he more or less sent his word down in the flesh, which meant he sent himself down so that we get it right. That's the belief anyway.

and the qu'ran supports that belief. 
the reason for the prophet muhammad was in no way a slight against jesus; but instead the qu'ran states that the purpose is to further clarify what some jesus followers have gotten wrong.  i just want to emphasize that the qu'ran is in no way an assault on christ's teachings.  rather, it's stated purpose is to clarify misconceptions about those teachings as well as the old prophets.

more interestingly, in several verses the qu'ran suggests that christians and jews will also attain heavenly reward, even without accepting the qu'ran. 

sura 2:62
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.


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So Muhammad said to do that while he was under the influence of God? I thought the Quran was the direct word of God and not Muhammad, and that Muhammad had his own teachings in another book.

it is the direct word of god to the prophet muhammad.  i did not mean to suggest otherwise.  the context with which the qu'ran should be appreciated is subject to debate and also varies.  i tend to agree with the argument that god tells people what they need to know.  this idea is supported within the qu'ran as not only did various communities get different warners with different messages, but some of the teachings of the various prophets vary slightly.  the purpose for religion is not to create robots out of people but to create a level of understanding; thus the notion that the answers would change slightly within context is not disturbing.

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So then why wouldn't the Quran state that this is a "for the times" suggestion? Or does it? And if it doesn't identify which is for the times and which isn't then who is to say what is timeless and what isn't.

the qu'ran does not apply expiration dates to it's advice. 
the qu'ran does identify which ideas are the most important; and which ideas are for advice.  the core ideas are absolute, the qu'ran defines directly what islam is: submission the the will of god;  leading a righteous life, observing the contact prayers, charity towards to poor...etc.  it also provides general advice and guidance for life and life's affairs, and typically contains the rationalization for that guidance.  in order to interpret a verse then, one can focus on the rationalization to appreciate the spirit of the law.

for example:
sura 2:62 (snippet)
any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.


sura 2:112
Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.


those are very specific and absolute.

in contrast:
sura 33:32
O Consorts of the Prophet! Ye are not like any of the (other) women: if ye do fear (God), be not too complacent of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak ye a speech (that is) just.

sura 33:59
O Prophet ! tell thy wives and thy daughters, and the women of the believers, that they should pull down upon them of their outer cloaks from their heads over their faces. That is more likely that they may thus be recognized and not molested. And ALLAH is Most Forgiving, Merciful.


while this is god's word, it is advice to the wives of the prophet specifically; the second verse also applies to female muslims.  this advice is provided to address and prevent undesirable behavior in others; it does not indicate that god cares or desires women to cover up for their spirituality; but it is advice for the women conducting themselves among others. 

when the context of how to interpret the qu'ran is debated, the ideas  in the qu'ran that are absolute and timeless are clear.  there is one god, do not worship idols...etc.  other ideas that are inherently contextual have been interpretted in different ways across muslim communities.  some prefer literal interpretations; some favor adhering to the spirit of the advice;  thus you have many muslim not wearing a burqa or hijab but still dressing modestly.
 
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I guess I see it as with Islam a person has to almost rise above some of the things Muhammad did or said to be as righteous as they can be

i think it depends on how you interpret what the prophet muhammad said and what the qu'ran says.  i haven't studied the hadiths, but i am familiar with how people have misinterpretted some of the teachings of the prophet muhammad.

i don't look at the qu'ran as a set of rules but as instruction to developing a more righteous mindset.

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in Christianity a person can't even come close to being as righteous as Jesus. For this I cannot call Jesus and Muhammad equals and have to see Jesus as superior.

in islam one would worship god and neither the prophet jesus nor the prophet muhammad; so it isn't a big issue. 

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P.S. When I say rise above, I mean see a verse like Sura 4:34 where it says you should scourge or admonish a wife that rebels and say; no I'd rather treat my wife as an equal instead of leading her, since I am no better than her, and since I don't want to raise my daughters to be less than ther future husbands as far as raising the family goes.

i understand why you would have issues with sura 4:34 to the letter of the law.

sura 4:34
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For God is Most High, great (above you all).


beating is the last resort.  it states that the rationale is that the man provides for the woman; which may or may not be true today as women are better able to provide for themselves.  additionally, the woman here is charged with disloyalty.  much of sura 2 and 4 are dedicated to establishing the rights of women as well as the fair treatment in general; and also specifically for women after divorce where the husband must continue to take care of them and allow them to remain in their homes.  4:34 is an attempt to preserve the balance so that a wife could not force a divorce yet still be taken care of.  this is largely an issue of fairness.  the reason that i don't have a problem with this is i don't see it as advocating domination but advocating a measure of balance and fairness when taken within the qu'ran as a whole. 

we can look at jesus, he performed miracles for his times, but he did not perform miracles for the future.  jesus could have revealed some amount of specific scientific information that could only be appreciated and understood in the future times.   yet he did not.  his miracles were contextual.
the qu'ran could have been a message directed towards future more liberal societies but then you have to question how those ideas would have been accepted at that time.

surely there is the danger of an individual trying to exploit the letter of the law, but again; religion isn't about some sort of strict legal adherence to the letter of the law.  it's about what is in an individuals heart and what motivates them.  and this is born out in the qu'ran.

sura 2:8-12
Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in God and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.
Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!
In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"
Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.


the qu'ran as a whole paints a different picture than individual selected verses. 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2006, 10:06:24 AM by nibs »
"a four letter word is going out to every single enemy" - kam
 

WestCoasta

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Re: do the muslims on this board...
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2006, 05:42:18 PM »
religious people need to smoke some bud to relax
 

coola

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Re: do the muslims on this board...
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2006, 08:30:45 AM »
religious people need to smoke some bud to relax
LMAO
preeeeeach !!! i'm off to roll one up  8)