Author Topic: Will Hard Rock and Heavy Metal ever make a comeback. Billboard sees metal rise.  (Read 2229 times)

Don Jacob

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^huh?

it all depends on the asthetics of a person's liking, to say hard rock ignores melody isn't an accurate statement...not all melody is "yellow submarine"


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Trauma-san

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You know what I'm talking about, don't get pedantic. 
 

Shallow

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Justice didn't take off until after the Black Album hit it huge. It was 2x platinum before, not bad, but in the 80s boom, noithing special. Since the Black Album was released it reached 7x platinum. Even Master of Puppets ended up selling 6 million after the Black album. Plus, One was pretty polished in the beginning of the song, which probably hooked a lot of kids.






If you count the goofballs in the 80s like Motley

i'll actually give motley some credit, i mean apart from vince neil's voice, they were actually a very talented band

tommy lee-excellent drummer
mick mars-had some awesome riffs and solos.....one fine piece of work that stands out is "god bless the children of the beast"
nikki sixx-wrote  ALOT of those songs


hate their image, but you can't really deny them as artists on their core earlier albums


I don't hate Motley, I'm just saying that most don't consider them metal.

like who? they might have been poppy but they've ALWAYS been associated with metal


Most people I know associate them with Hair Metal, and I even knoe people that say GnR is more hard rock than metal, and Appetite is more metal to me than anything Motley released.



And let's say I agree that One was less polished (I don't just mean production, but in song writing and arrangement to), the fact still remains that the old Metallica albums didnt take off in sales until after the polished sound won them over.



And Trauma, you can still have a melody and be hard; Paranoid for example. Nirvana was hard and they had melody. Now if wre talking death metal ad the vocalist just screaches then I don't see that becoming huge, but a song like Welcome to the Jungle could work in any day and age.
 

Diabolical

To go back to the initial post, Death Metal bands like Cannibal Corpse are not trying to sell records anyway, if they were desparate for sales there is plenty of things they could change about their music but the fact that they haven't changed their sound one bit since 1993/4 proves they aren't commercially orientated.  Many of their fans have complained about the fact that the music has changed little on their last 4 or 5 albums.
 

Don Jacob

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Justice didn't take off until after the Black Album hit it huge. It was 2x platinum before, not bad, but in the 80s boom, noithing special. Since the Black Album was released it reached 7x platinum. Even Master of Puppets ended up selling 6 million after the Black album. Plus, One was pretty polished in the beginning of the song, which probably hooked a lot of kids.






If you count the goofballs in the 80s like Motley

i'll actually give motley some credit, i mean apart from vince neil's voice, they were actually a very talented band

tommy lee-excellent drummer
mick mars-had some awesome riffs and solos.....one fine piece of work that stands out is "god bless the children of the beast"
nikki sixx-wrote  ALOT of those songs


hate their image, but you can't really deny them as artists on their core earlier albums


I don't hate Motley, I'm just saying that most don't consider them metal.

like who? they might have been poppy but they've ALWAYS been associated with metal


Most people I know associate them with Hair Metal, and I even knoe people that say GnR is more hard rock than metal, and Appetite is more metal to me than anything Motley released.



And let's say I agree that One was less polished (I don't just mean production, but in song writing and arrangement to), the fact still remains that the old Metallica albums didnt take off in sales until after the polished sound won them over.



And Trauma, you can still have a melody and be hard; Paranoid for example. Nirvana was hard and they had melody. Now if wre talking death metal ad the vocalist just screaches then I don't see that becoming huge, but a song like Welcome to the Jungle could work in any day and age.


hair metal is still metal....will smith is pop rap but he's still a hip hop artist

check out the new magazine of hit parader.....that metal magazine and it has the all time top metal acts....and they list both guns n roses and motley crue as metal........and that's the magazine that prides itself on exploding acts like slipknot and all those overly hardcore metal bands

true metallica saw huge number from their back catalouge after the black album hit, but "....and justice for all"  was a HUGE album with virtually no promotion.....no radio play and .....until they finally released the video for 'one' no mtv play....and debuted very high on the billboard charts, went platnum plus, got nominated for grammies, all over the cover of many music magazine, ect. they went from being as big as crooked i is now with master of puppets to about as big as ludacris/lil jon with ...and justic for all, then when the black album hit they were on some eminem/50 cent times 5 status


and trauma , melody is something that pleasing to the ear, some people hear 'yellow submarine" and think mother goose, others think 'wow that is the shit' .....some people listen to rob zombie and think wow what the hell is this muffled devil bull shit , others think "wow this is the shit

to say hard core artist ignore melody is ignorant...if they ignored melody then they'd just be throwing random low notes together ......but , and this is fact, bands like earlier metallicam dimmu borgir, children of bodom are closer to the like of mozart and bethoveen than the beatles and the stones


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Trauma-san

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Nice try, but you're wrong.  I love it when you guys give me simple little sentences like I'm not aware of that.  OH, you mean that melody doesn't have to be "Yellow Submarine"? Who the fuck said it did? 

Here's a simple test.  And leave Rob Zombie out of it, he's a diamond in a genre full of cubic zirconias.

Which is more melodic?  Yellow Submarine, or Pantera?  Which is the general public going to appreciate more?  We're talking about success, and making a 'comeback', we're not talking about what one small populace of the world likes, and we're not talking about text book definitions of melody, rhythm and song structure, I'm talking about what is the focal point of the song?  Melody, or a discernable melody that the average listener is going to hear is all but thrown out the window in hard rock, distorted guitars hide any melody, thundering drums and bass hide any melody, triple time time signatures hide any melody.  Hard rock will never make a comeback because it's sloppy and overdriven and most people aren't going to listen to that shit.

Since you mentioned Yellow Submarine: Nice Rhythm, Nice melody that gets stuck in your head that you can sing along to.  It'll be more popular than any hard rock song 500 years from now, because it's just more pleasant to the ear. 

Ultimately, you're talking about public opinion when you say will something make a comeback. ... well, not if the public doesn't want to hear it, and they frankly don't want to hear a bunch of people running around the stage beating on shit yelling as loud as they can.  To prove my point, even modern rock is losing listeners every day to fuckin' COUNTRY.  Country music is the fastest growing genre in the u.s., rock is the fastest sinking.  Anything exciting or fun that rock ever had is dead. 
 

Shallow

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Justice didn't take off until after the Black Album hit it huge. It was 2x platinum before, not bad, but in the 80s boom, noithing special. Since the Black Album was released it reached 7x platinum. Even Master of Puppets ended up selling 6 million after the Black album. Plus, One was pretty polished in the beginning of the song, which probably hooked a lot of kids.






If you count the goofballs in the 80s like Motley

i'll actually give motley some credit, i mean apart from vince neil's voice, they were actually a very talented band

tommy lee-excellent drummer
mick mars-had some awesome riffs and solos.....one fine piece of work that stands out is "god bless the children of the beast"
nikki sixx-wrote  ALOT of those songs


hate their image, but you can't really deny them as artists on their core earlier albums


I don't hate Motley, I'm just saying that most don't consider them metal.

like who? they might have been poppy but they've ALWAYS been associated with metal


Most people I know associate them with Hair Metal, and I even knoe people that say GnR is more hard rock than metal, and Appetite is more metal to me than anything Motley released.



And let's say I agree that One was less polished (I don't just mean production, but in song writing and arrangement to), the fact still remains that the old Metallica albums didnt take off in sales until after the polished sound won them over.



And Trauma, you can still have a melody and be hard; Paranoid for example. Nirvana was hard and they had melody. Now if wre talking death metal ad the vocalist just screaches then I don't see that becoming huge, but a song like Welcome to the Jungle could work in any day and age.


hair metal is still metal....will smith is pop rap but he's still a hip hop artist

check out the new magazine of hit parader.....that metal magazine and it has the all time top metal acts....and they list both guns n roses and motley crue as metal........and that's the magazine that prides itself on exploding acts like slipknot and all those overly hardcore metal bands

true metallica saw huge number from their back catalouge after the black album hit, but "....and justice for all"  was a HUGE album with virtually no promotion.....no radio play and .....until they finally released the video for 'one' no mtv play....and debuted very high on the billboard charts, went platnum plus, got nominated for grammies, all over the cover of many music magazine, ect. they went from being as big as crooked i is now with master of puppets to about as big as ludacris/lil jon with ...and justic for all, then when the black album hit they were on some eminem/50 cent times 5 status


and trauma , melody is something that pleasing to the ear, some people hear 'yellow submarine" and think mother goose, others think 'wow that is the shit' .....some people listen to rob zombie and think wow what the hell is this muffled devil bull shit , others think "wow this is the shit

to say hard core artist ignore melody is ignorant...if they ignored melody then they'd just be throwing random low notes together ......but , and this is fact, bands like earlier metallicam dimmu borgir, children of bodom are closer to the like of mozart and bethoveen than the beatles and the stones

If you count it as metal then fine. I'm not saying I don't so much as I was saying many peope don't like to associate Poison with Metal. If Hair Metal counts then of course metal was huge at one point, before Metallica ever became huge. And when I mean  huge I don't mean a grammy nod (a lot of no name shit acts that aren't popular get grammy nods, and the hard rock award was probably only made up because of the success of Appetite), I mean huge as in taking the world by storm and Metallica didn't do that until '90-'91. But WhiteSnake and friends did it well before that.
 

Diabolical

I think rock is at its most popular in years ie emo
 

Don Jacob

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Nice try, but you're wrong.  I love it when you guys give me simple little sentences like I'm not aware of that.  OH, you mean that melody doesn't have to be "Yellow Submarine"? Who the fuck said it did? 

Here's a simple test.  And leave Rob Zombie out of it, he's a diamond in a genre full of cubic zirconias.

Which is more melodic?  Yellow Submarine, or Pantera?  Which is the general public going to appreciate more?  We're talking about success, and making a 'comeback', we're not talking about what one small populace of the world likes, and we're not talking about text book definitions of melody, rhythm and song structure, I'm talking about what is the focal point of the song?  Melody, or a discernable melody that the average listener is going to hear is all but thrown out the window in hard rock, distorted guitars hide any melody, thundering drums and bass hide any melody, triple time time signatures hide any melody.  Hard rock will never make a comeback because it's sloppy and overdriven and most people aren't going to listen to that shit.

Since you mentioned Yellow Submarine: Nice Rhythm, Nice melody that gets stuck in your head that you can sing along to.  It'll be more popular than any hard rock song 500 years from now, because it's just more pleasant to the ear. 

Ultimately, you're talking about public opinion when you say will something make a comeback. ... well, not if the public doesn't want to hear it, and they frankly don't want to hear a bunch of people running around the stage beating on shit yelling as loud as they can.  To prove my point, even modern rock is losing listeners every day to fuckin' COUNTRY.  Country music is the fastest growing genre in the u.s., rock is the fastest sinking.  Anything exciting or fun that rock ever had is dead. 

1.lol @ trauma talking shit on hard core music then defending rob zombie , you realise that rob zombie's sound is derived from many of the artists you're despising. he actually openly admits that , diamonds aren't formed from cubic zirconias,lol

2. yellow submarine or pantera- you're leaving yourself WIDE open here that's easy a whole catelouge of Dimebag darrel or yellow submarine.......Pantera wins that one.  have you ever listened to pantera? lol peep songs like "cemetary gates" or "hollow" hell listen to any of dimebags solos and those are some of the most melody driven pieces of guitar work u can hear, why do you think it was such a big deal when he died? many people are comparing him to and putting him on the level as eddie van halen now ....

okay now back to what you're trying to lampoon

Quote
We're talking about successand making a 'comeback',
i thought we were talking about melody, but if we're going to be talking about that:

jimi hendrix
led zeppelin
Metallica
Black Sabbath
Van Halen
Guns N roses
Iron Maiden

 alll have monsterous world wide success , and sell millions of units every year in back catelouge, and are played more on the radio than the beatles

and i'll throw pantera back in your face again, you realise ever since dimebag died pantera has experienced a continous growth in album sales , praise, magazine coverage, merchandise sales, radio play, ect.  okay dude has been dead for a year and half now, if they were some fluke with no melody  this fan fare would've faded a week after he died.  and by the way pantera has been disbanned for years now.....jimi hendrix experience for the new millenium anyone?  to quote you again:
Quote
distorted guitars hide any melody, thundering drums and bass hide any melody, triple time time signatures hide any melody.
<-----wait didn't you just praise jimi hendrix in a thread last week , that's what his band was like......and for the record NONE of those things hide melody, outside of use of distorded guitars the rest have been used in classical compositions...so what are you talking about?


3.
Quote
and we're not talking about text book definitions of melody, rhythm and song structure, I'm talking about what is the focal point of the song?  Melody, or a discernable melody that the average listener is going to hear is all but thrown out the window in hard rock

maybe hard rock isn't made for "the average listener". correct me if i'm wrong but i wouldn't consider the average  listener to be the most intellegent of music fans.....maybe hardcore music isn't as popular because it's a more intellegent brand of music

who're the bands making all the political songs, or have been since the late 70's for that matter? hardcore acts like rage against the machine, system of a down, megadeth, and so many various punk outfits since the 70's and on

thank you for giving us that point..lol 


4.
Quote
Hard rock will never make a comeback because it's sloppy and overdriven and most people aren't going to listen to that shit.
<--- again what'd you say about jimi hendrix like a week ago

hard rock sloppy......try telling that to kerry king, try telling that to dave mustane, try telling that to joe satriani , try telling that to kirk hammett, try telling that to ron murry, try telling that to angus young, try telling that vinnie paul various people that come to mind to practice for hours in the studio making sure every drum beat and down beat, every guitar lick is in perfect tuning and timing, try telling that to all the various industrial metal acts who PRIDE themselves on keeping precise timing

most people don't listen to sloppy overdriven music? lol okay trauma , walk by any night club or put on any modern hip hop station and listen to 'laffy taffy" being played pretty sloppy if you ask me, then walk by any car stereo store.....and peep how many people are having their trunks rattle with the newest lil jon song,lol overdriven like amuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuutha fucka

5.
Quote
Since you mentioned Yellow Submarine: Nice Rhythm, Nice melody that gets stuck in your head that you can sing along to.  It'll be more popular than any hard rock song 500 years from now, because it's just more pleasant to the ear. 


key word here is any.....i doubt yellow submarine will be more popular than welcome to the jungle or enter sandman

Quote
  To prove my point, even modern rock is losing listeners every day to fuckin' COUNTRY.  Country music is the fastest growing genre in the u.s., rock is the fastest sinking.  Anything exciting or fun that rock ever had is dead. 

i know you're from the south  where country is king but , if you're going to make statements like this then you better back it up with statistics


according to soundscan rock is still the highest selling form of music, and the fastest selling genre of music per populous is now hispanic music



R.I.P.  To my Queen and Princess 07-05-09
 

Don Jacob

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Justice didn't take off until after the Black Album hit it huge. It was 2x platinum before, not bad, but in the 80s boom, noithing special. Since the Black Album was released it reached 7x platinum. Even Master of Puppets ended up selling 6 million after the Black album. Plus, One was pretty polished in the beginning of the song, which probably hooked a lot of kids.






If you count the goofballs in the 80s like Motley

i'll actually give motley some credit, i mean apart from vince neil's voice, they were actually a very talented band

tommy lee-excellent drummer
mick mars-had some awesome riffs and solos.....one fine piece of work that stands out is "god bless the children of the beast"
nikki sixx-wrote  ALOT of those songs


hate their image, but you can't really deny them as artists on their core earlier albums


I don't hate Motley, I'm just saying that most don't consider them metal.

like who? they might have been poppy but they've ALWAYS been associated with metal


Most people I know associate them with Hair Metal, and I even knoe people that say GnR is more hard rock than metal, and Appetite is more metal to me than anything Motley released.



And let's say I agree that One was less polished (I don't just mean production, but in song writing and arrangement to), the fact still remains that the old Metallica albums didnt take off in sales until after the polished sound won them over.



And Trauma, you can still have a melody and be hard; Paranoid for example. Nirvana was hard and they had melody. Now if wre talking death metal ad the vocalist just screaches then I don't see that becoming huge, but a song like Welcome to the Jungle could work in any day and age.


hair metal is still metal....will smith is pop rap but he's still a hip hop artist

check out the new magazine of hit parader.....that metal magazine and it has the all time top metal acts....and they list both guns n roses and motley crue as metal........and that's the magazine that prides itself on exploding acts like slipknot and all those overly hardcore metal bands

true metallica saw huge number from their back catalouge after the black album hit, but "....and justice for all"  was a HUGE album with virtually no promotion.....no radio play and .....until they finally released the video for 'one' no mtv play....and debuted very high on the billboard charts, went platnum plus, got nominated for grammies, all over the cover of many music magazine, ect. they went from being as big as crooked i is now with master of puppets to about as big as ludacris/lil jon with ...and justic for all, then when the black album hit they were on some eminem/50 cent times 5 status


and trauma , melody is something that pleasing to the ear, some people hear 'yellow submarine" and think mother goose, others think 'wow that is the shit' .....some people listen to rob zombie and think wow what the hell is this muffled devil bull shit , others think "wow this is the shit

to say hard core artist ignore melody is ignorant...if they ignored melody then they'd just be throwing random low notes together ......but , and this is fact, bands like earlier metallicam dimmu borgir, children of bodom are closer to the like of mozart and bethoveen than the beatles and the stones

If you count it as metal then fine. I'm not saying I don't so much as I was saying many peope don't like to associate Poison with Metal. If Hair Metal counts then of course metal was huge at one point, before Metallica ever became huge. And when I mean  huge I don't mean a grammy nod (a lot of no name shit acts that aren't popular get grammy nods, and the hard rock award was probably only made up because of the success of Appetite), I mean huge as in taking the world by storm and Metallica didn't do that until '90-'91. But WhiteSnake and friends did it well before that.

it's not just me who considers them metal, a major metal publication does aswell

Quote
the hard rock award was probably only made up because of the success of Appetite),


no it was invented because the public had been asking for it since 81' , appetite for destruction wasn't even nominated or acknowledged at the grammies (stupid , i know ) but the award wasn't invented because of them

and why are you trying to turn this into a metallica didn't make metal big argument....i know , i'm just saying metallica didn't blwo up with the black album, they were already big when the black album hit


R.I.P.  To my Queen and Princess 07-05-09
 

Shallow

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I don't want to make this a is hair metal really metal debate. I like hair metal. I just know people that think it's a joke, and the tone of the thread seemed to be geared towards Pantera hard rock, rather than Cinderella hard rock.


GnR were nominated because they were an '87 album and the first Grammy was in '89 for the '88 year I think. Either way GnR weren't eligible. Before Appetitite I don't think there was a hard rock album that sold millions upon millions all at once. Zep and AC/DC took years to sell. Appetite was 5x in it's first year of release. The only other album I can think of is 1984, but I never thought of that album as that hard.
 

Don Jacob

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van halen I sold a lot also


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Lincoln

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van halen I sold a lot also

10 Million I believe.

Most hip-hop is now keyboard driven, because the majority of hip-hop workstations have loops and patches that enable somebody with marginal skills to put tracks together,...

Unfortunately, most hip-hop artists gravitated towards the path of least resistance by relying on these pre-set patches. As a result, electric guitar and real musicians became devalued, and a lot of hip-hop now sounds the same.

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