oh oh... someone did some reading...

[nibs]

No one is denying that the rich white west is a key factor in the poverty of the 3rd world. But the problem for a lot of whites in the west is that they are taught to feel like they are responsible for it. The truth is the vast majority of them are just pawns that couldn't do anything to stop it, and had very little if anything at all to do with it ever.

this is not true as it was regular people that took part in facilitating the slave trade and the managing of slaves as well as supporting the infrastructure of society itself.  if a vile crime is being committed in your community, and you support and reap the benefits of this crime indirectly...then you should share in on the blame. 

The basic thought that the difference between a poor white man and a rich white man in the USA 200 years ago was how many slaves they had is absolutely ridiculous

the poor white man with nothing by and large looked up to and wanted to be the rich white man with slaves.  the supported the principle of slavery even if they didn't own slaves themselves.

In the United States the poverty rate of blacks may double that of whites, but 80% of blacks are above the poverty line, and there are triple the number of poor whites than poor blacks, and more than double more poor whites than poor blacks and latinos combined.

there are ~6 times as many whites as blacks yet using your numbers ony 3 times as many poor whites as poor blacks.  that is the problem.  if you get the rates the same across races; then blacks will stop complaining.  the goal is for race to be an uninteresting demographic category.

There may not be a level playing field

are you suggesting that the playing field is level enough, or do you think there is more to do.  i can't speak for these people that think blacks have it worse than sex slaves in the philipians.  you are making this "not too bad" argument when the statistics are not only not good enough, but the trends are declining for blacks in terms of metrics like wealth, spending power, property ownership.  the recent trends have been towards a broadening gap and not a closing gap.

Of course as Nibs mentioned that negative affect is nothing next to the problems of the third world and maybe if people here remembered that there wouldn't be as much white suburban suicide or black ghetto homicide. It's funny because such a small portion of each group is affected by either.

i agree 100% with that

and what's more interesting is that people now have more power and influence and information than at any other previous time, and yet they fall prey to these manipulations and squander their power.

if people in the west, whether it be in europe or in america took a greater interest in the world and their politics, they could influence great change.  the reins that the elite hold on power are more flimsy than ever, and the mechanisms used  to maintain power more devious...

[Shallow]

this is not true as it was regular people that took part in facilitating the slave trade and the managing of slaves as well as supporting the infrastructure of society itself.  if a vile crime is being committed in your community, and you support and reap the benefits of this crime indirectly...then you should share in on the blame. 

Obviously there were regular people that worked for the slave trade the fact, based purely on simple logic, has to stand true that there were more slaves in the slave trade than there were non-slaves or the entire system couldn't work. Like you say below; 6 whites for every black. It was at least that back then. So if one sixth of the whites worked in the slave trade (which is a stretch), then at least five sixths didn't.

the poor white man with nothing by and large looked up to and wanted to be the rich white man with slaves.  the supported the principle of slavery even if they didn't own slaves themselves.

Now you insult the intelligence of the common man. They may have gone along with the idea that blacks were inferior, or at least pretended to in order to not cause trouble, but if you think that for a second a family of small farmers that came from a family of small farmers thought they could one day own a plantation when all the good land was taken by the rich, and given the number of slaves the rich had, the man power heavily outweighed small farmer's then you are kidding yourself. They knew what was out of reach. The get rich quick schemes, and rags to riches stories are a new thing in society as far as common examples go. There were no big sports leagues to become a star in, or Hollywood, or some great invention you could make millions with. Today those pipe dreams plague the people into thinking they have shot. Back then these people were still living through the minds that their serf grand parents lived under; "Shut up, do your work, and don't cause trouble". The majority did anyway.

there are ~6 times as many whites as blacks yet using your numbers ony 3 times as many poor whites as poor blacks.  that is the problem.  if you get the rates the same across races; then blacks will stop complaining.  the goal is for race to be an uninteresting demographic category.

I think it's a chicken and the egg scenario mixed in with the head start the whites had. Blacks are more likely to feel victimized and are conditioned to consider themselves in a lower class (by blacks as well as whites) and in turn you get more blacks say "fuck it" than you do whites, but you still have more blacks that don't say that, and yet everyone still focuses on the minority that do.

Let's look at Toronto as a prime example of extremely poor people of various races coming in to the city at around the same time. Indian, Italian, Greek, Arab, and Black (most of Jamaica); the majority of each race came over to get away from some kind of oppression and find a better life. Indians had the problem of slavery during the slave years and massive poverty afterwards, Italians had their problems with the communist regime ruled for a while, Greeks had 400 years of persecution and slavery inflicted upon them by the Muslim Turks, Arabs had their large share of problems with the rich white invasion of the middle east and the new found state of Israel, and the Jamaicans had their years of slavery followed by poverty.

Why is it that a Jamaican in Toronto was more likely to run out on his pregnant girlfriend than any of the other races? Why was a Jamaican more likely to try their hand at drugs?

I've concluded (my answer could change one day), that it's the lack discipline that goes with seeing the white society as your enemy and putting your issues with whites ahead of your responsibility to your own family (usually unknowingly), and the idea that you can't live as well as the whites in terms of self worth and happiness.

When my grandfather was young and he impregnated my grandmother, he refused to marry. Do you know what happened to him? He was thrown in jail and wasn't let out until agreed to marry her. This was the mentality many of the Greeks who came here had. They saw the whites as different, as the enemy, but they were going to strive despite that. The Greeks were put in ghettos in Toronto, given remedial jobs, University was out of the question, and the city wasn't bending over backwards to lend a hand. The white's agenda was simple, they needed more workers to do jobs the whites didn't want to do and they went and recruited them from countries that had an abundance of poor people they could trick into thinking there was riches in North America. My grandfather was a farmer, he was shown all the great prosperous farmland in North America, but he didn't get any of that. He got a security guard job while his children worked as anything from construction to a house maid so the whites could have buildings to get rich in and clean toilets to shit in.

That's the mentality I grew up with. I was taught to see the whites this way. My father lived in Canada under the realization that if a World War were to break out (this was during the Cold War/WW3 scares) and Greece were to pick the other side, we'd be up the creek with out a paddle faster than you can say Japanese concentration camp. But I had discipline like the rest of the Greeks in the culture here. We were taught to see the whites as oppressors but we were never allowed to go against our values oir give these whites a reason to think we are any less than them. That is a mentality that does not exist in the black community here and probably not in any major US city. You ask a Greek what hardships feel upon Greece and he'll tell you all about what the Greeks "overcame", you ask a Jamaican and they'll tell you all about what the Jamaicans "suffered". It's this mentality that is taught, and that needs to stop being taught that leads to Greeks not being more below the poverty line than the whites. And you can ask any kid from any other race or culture that isn't as below the poverty line as the blacks are and they'll at least know someone who has a story like mine.

are you suggesting that the playing field is level enough, or do you think there is more to do.  i can't speak for these people that think blacks have it worse than sex slaves in the philipians.  you are making this "not too bad" argument when the statistics are not only not good enough, but the trends are declining for blacks in terms of metrics like wealth, spending power, property ownership.  the recent trends have been towards a broadening gap and not a closing gap.

My above response explains my thoughts on this.

i agree 100% with that

and what's more interesting is that people now have more power and influence and information than at any other previous time, and yet they fall prey to these manipulations and squander their power.

if people in the west, whether it be in europe or in america took a greater interest in the world and their politics, they could influence great change.  the reins that the elite hold on power are more flimsy than ever, and the mechanisms used  to maintain power more devious...

I don't think there was a time in history where the have-nots weren't too many and the people in power probably like it that way. I don't think it can be changed in this World. I guess that's why I have faith in a better one.

[nibs]

So if one sixth of the whites worked in the slave trade (which is a stretch), then at least five sixths didn't.

they all supported it.  slave owners were the community leaders.  they didn't pass laws to abolish slavery or oppose slavery.

Now you insult the intelligence of the common man. They may have gone along with the idea that blacks were inferior, or at least pretended to in order to not cause trouble, but if you think that for a second a family of small farmers that came from a family of small farmers thought they could one day own a plantation when all the good land was taken by the rich, and given the number of slaves the rich had, the man power heavily outweighed small farmer's then you are kidding yourself. They knew what was out of reach.

not all slaves were on plantations.  anyone that could afford to house and feed a slave could use the free labor; on small farms and as servants as well.

additionally, you have private writings of abraham lincoln where he states that blacks are inferior. if you look at the scholarly writings at the time: there were "scientific studies and books published documenting the intellectual inferiority of blacks; and also the predisposition of blacks to violence and crime.  the notion that blacks were inferior (ot whites) was widespread and persisted well beyond the times of slavery.

The get rich quick schemes, and rags to riches stories are a new thing in society as far as common examples go. There were no big sports leagues to become a star in, or Hollywood, or some great invention you could make millions with. Today those pipe dreams plague the people into thinking they have shot.

lol.  colonization itself was seen and sold as a get rich scheme by many.  "get a fresh start in the new world".  the rich often sponsored the poor to go off and colonize; with the expectation of great rewards for both.   much of settling west (manifest destiny) push was motivated by both searching for gold and precious minerals(later oil); as well as establishing farms.  at a minimum, if not getting rich quickly people wanted to get ahead quickly; and free labor was beneficial to this in many way.  there are numerous tales of early colonies failing because people were growing cash crops instead of food.  people have always wanted to "get rich quick" in america.

I think it's a chicken and the egg scenario mixed in with the head start the whites had.

whites had more than just a head start they oppresses and held blacks back.  laws against blacks voting, owning property  at various times in addition to slavery.  calling that a "head start" undermines the extent of the treachery.

Blacks are more likely to feel victimized and are conditioned to consider themselves in a lower class (by blacks as well as whites) and in turn you get more blacks say "fuck it" than you do whites, but you still have more blacks that don't say that, and yet everyone still focuses on the minority that do.

blacks have been victimized and many blacks find themselves in hopeless situations to start.

the larger problem is the gross majority of wealth is controlled by whites in this country.  people like to say that race doesn't matter, but it does in the minds of many; and blacks are very conscious of race especially.  many blacks find themselves in a situation where they must conform to white cultural ideals in order to get a good job and get ahead.   in many ways this is seen as having to deny their true selves in a professional context, and there is doubt and debate as to whether or not they get a fair shake compared to their white counterparts.  in contrast whites don't have to work for blacks, conform to the black mans world, and don't face those same cultural ramifications. 
individually, the worse the situation for a black community (the greater the poverty, the greater the crime) the worse their relationship with the white world is going to be (typically through the police and politicians), and thus opportunities seem even more hopeless.  you look at a place like watts.  the per capita income in watts is around $7k/yr.  the per capita income of mexico is $10k/yr.  you'd almost think that watts natives should sneak into mexico to get ahead.
poor whites don't face the same cultural ramifications as poor blacks.  this is largely a result in the imbalanced distribution of wealth and power racially. 

Why is it that a Jamaican in Toronto was more likely to run out on his pregnant girlfriend than any of the other races? Why was a Jamaican more likely to try their hand at drugs?
I've concluded (my answer could change one day), that it's the lack discipline that goes with seeing the white society as your enemy and putting your issues with whites ahead of your responsibility to your own family (usually unknowingly), and the idea that you can't live as well as the whites in terms of self worth and happiness.

jamaica was a british colony and black jamaicans are the decendents of slaves.  if you have questions about the mental disposition and the hostility towards whites, it's going to be the same as blacks in north america.

When my grandfather was young and he impregnated my grandmother, he refused to marry. Do you know what happened to him? He was thrown in jail and wasn't let out until agreed to marry her. This was the mentality many of the Greeks who came here had. They saw the whites as different, as the enemy, but they were going to strive despite that.

That's the mentality I grew up with.

within the black community there is an ongoing debate on why the values and sense of communal responsibility have been lost.  i agree with you, as many others do, that this is a problem, i disagree with you in that i don't believe that blaming the white man is the source of this problem.
if you remember the threads eihtball had about whites embracing negative stereotypes in hip hop to the detriment of the black community; that was one example into the types of ideas people are looking at regarding what is wrong.

We were taught to see the whites as oppressors but we were never allowed to go against our values oir give these whites a reason to think we are any less than them. That is a mentality that does not exist in the black community here and probably not in any major US city. You ask a Greek what hardships feel upon Greece and he'll tell you all about what the Greeks "overcame", you ask a Jamaican and they'll tell you all about what the Jamaicans "suffered".

in many ways this is true.  the black community in jamaica or the u.s. does not represent one nation of people like the greeks with one common identity.  that common identity and communal sense was not preserved during slavery, as the slaves were from different tribes and regions of africa and intentionally mixed up.  you mention "greeks".  in europe "greeks" and "italians", "germans" and "french" are all different, with different histories, cultures and senses of community.  it'd be like calling all of them a "european".  is there a single consistent "european" identity?  because blacks couldn't identify a country in africa where they were from, let along individual tribes.  that communal identity was destroyed.  when you talk about that sense of cultural pride that your family had, this is the same sense of cultural identity and pride that blacks in america and jamaica are trying to redevelop, after their true identity was destroyed.  the only thing that holds the black community together is skin color.  and that isn't enough to hold europe or the middle east together.
you are talking about a people whose individual cultural identities were disparate, destroyed and are trying to establish a new identity in a hostile environment.  it's not an apples to apples comparison, but i 100% appreciate your perspective in terms of cultural identity and pride.

I don't think there was a time in history where the have-nots weren't too many and the people in power probably like it that way. I don't think it can be changed in this World. I guess that's why I have faith in a better one.

i was pointing at the amusing fact that within the sham of a democracy that exists in america, people actually do wield great amounts of power in choosing their leadership and direction for the nation.  with the rise of the internet, people have access to alternative forms of media to disperse ideas without corporate approval.  the power that the people have in this world is great, but they have failed to recognize it or act wisely with it. 

[Shallow]

Just a couple of things.

1.) If the ratio of white to black is 6 to 1 and plantation owners had many slaves then it is mathematically impossible for many common folks to have any slaves. I'm not saying no one did, but there is no way the majority could have slaves.

2.) That bullshit myth that people were leaving their countries because they wanted to get rich is just that; a myth. My family was more or less forced out of Greece since the area they lived had been war torn and the same goes a lot of Europeans. The well to do came over to do better, the poor came over because they were forced, one way or another, and the well to do need forces to make sure the slaves couldn't revolt.


3) I never denied that people were taught blacks were inferior and believed it. I was just giving them some credit when it came to one day becoming rich and owning slaves. Most of the whites hadn't seen blacks or knew anything of them, but they had seen poverty and oppression from the rich and knew that you don't just go from poor to rich.

4) Every Jamaican I know has a strong bond to other Jamaicans and the country and culture of Jamaica. The thugs fight each other more than anyone else but the Italian Mobsters fought each other more that anyone else too.

5) Why is it that the Greeks can be ruled and oppressed by Muslims for 400 years, be forced to learn Islam and the way or Turkish life and still secretly hold on to Christianity and Greek culture, but the black slaves couldn't hold on to their culture. Now if the majority of slaves in the US and the Caribbean were slaves in Africa to begin with then I'd understand, but if they were proud upstanding African "kings" and "queens" as people like Nas seem to affirm then I don't get why they'd lose their pride.

[virtuoso]

Oh you know the song I am talking about also then, Nas is a brilliant lyricist but he is also a delusional fool, this utopia never existed and as for nibs man I respect your knowledge but you are white washing the issue of land grabs no pun intended. Firstly the high courts of Zimbabwe ruled the seizures illegal and were subsequently forced to flee for their leaves after being told they would be killed if they didnt leave immediately. However what I would like to comment on is your idea that it was badly planned and executed, no it was not badly planned and executed it was deliberately done. The land has been given to the closest associates of his and policemen secret service of his to name but a few.

He couldnt keep the white farmers in operational control because he pulled the same tired race card the white person is the devil the white person is evil, the white person is holding you down in order to desperately try and keep himself in power. He did this of course after failing in his bid to have the hourt court pass a law which would allow him to rule the country for the rest of his life without leadership challenge. Zimbabweans are being held down by their own brutal government more than any whites. Yet despite this farrakhan was the man praising this strong leader. It's like I have said before he cries foul on racism when it affects black people but when its all about despicable racist hatred towards white people then thats ok.

As for the point about slavery in general, whats done is done it happened and yet some black peoplem still feel like whitey owes them. I also think its nonsense when you said you can put food on the table house over your head etc, how can someone be fortunate in that respect when the only way they can do that is live in financial impisonment, in other words always being in debt. Yet instead of realising that most whites in this country are in the same damn position as them they want to continue with this mentality of being held down.

[nibs]

1.) If the ratio of white to black is 6 to 1 and plantation owners had many slaves then it is mathematically impossible for many common folks to have any slaves. I'm not saying no one did, but there is no way the majority could have slaves.

i am saying that the majority supported the policy of slave holders.  your logic illustrates my point.  if the actual slave holders were in the minority, and it's democratic rule, they couldn't have had the votes or legislative power to support slavery unless the average non-slave holder also agreed.

2.) That bullshit myth that people were leaving their countries because they wanted to get rich is just that; a myth. My family was more or less forced out of Greece since the area they lived had been war torn and the same goes a lot of Europeans. The well to do came over to do better, the poor came over because they were forced, one way or another, and the well to do need forces to make sure the slaves couldn't revolt.

we are only arguing over the scale of the improvement.  america was offerring a fresh opportunity, free lands for many settlers in the west, and an end various oppressions.  america provided the notion of equality and a level playing field.  and you can look at the gold rush out west, and the cash crop farmers in the south to see that many were looking for wealth as well.

4) Every Jamaican I know has a strong bond to other Jamaicans and the country and culture of Jamaica. The thugs fight each other more than anyone else but the Italian Mobsters fought each other more that anyone else too.

jamaica and other carribean states do have a significantly stronger sense of self identity than the blacks in america.  by sense of community i was referring to the sense of responsibility towards one another and to that community; an idea which has largely been lost in favor of pursuit of individualistic goals.

5) Why is it that the Greeks can be ruled and oppressed by Muslims for 400 years, be forced to learn Islam and the way or Turkish life and still secretly hold on to Christianity and Greek culture, but the black slaves couldn't hold on to their culture.

blacks from different tribes (now countries) were mixed up.  so they black slaves that were together did not share a common language or culture with one another.  this was done intentionally.  all they had in common was that they were black.  if you intermixed greeks, italians, germans and irish and split up their families...what common culture do those people share; and thus what culture can they hold on to?

[nibs]

Firstly the high courts of Zimbabwe ruled the seizures illegal and were subsequently forced to flee for their leaves after being told they would be killed if they didnt leave immediately.

the land grabbing was done in two phases, the first phase required court approval before seizure, the second phase required court approval after seizure.  what was ruled unconstitutional was the second phase; notion that they could seize the land and then verify after the fact that the land had been legally seized.

However what I would like to comment on is your idea that it was badly planned and executed, no it was not badly planned and executed it was deliberately done. The land has been given to the closest associates of his and policemen secret service of his to name but a few.

i don't believe that mugabe is a competent leader.  deliberate != well planned.  the farm lands are now sitting there inoperational; this is poor execution.  mugabe's government is not efficient, he has not demonstrated competency.

He couldnt keep the white farmers in operational control

i'm not saying he had to keep the white farmers in operational control.  
i'm saying if you seize the farms, you have to have someone capable of running a farm to take control.  he apparently had noone capable of running the farms.

Zimbabweans are being held down by their own brutal government more than any whites. Yet despite this farrakhan was the man praising this strong leader.

alot of people supported mugabe's efforts before they had become obvious failures.  
the evolution of dictatorships tends to be that with success, prosperity and stability; they are able to become more efficient, less corrupt, more open, and less oppressive.  because of mugabe's failures this has not happened in zimbabwe.

As for the point about slavery in general, whats done is done it happened and yet some black people still feel like whitey owes them.

black people can continue to feel that "whitey" has wronged them as they have been wronged.  it's pointless to say that "whitey" owes them as they will never be paid, the wrongs will not be corrected and they can only make the best of their situation.

I also think its nonsense when you said you can put food on the table house over your head etc, how can someone be fortunate in that respect when the only way they can do that is live in financial impisonment, in other words always being in debt.

nonsense?  
food, shelter, free from disease...that is a very good starting point.  that's much better than homeless, hungry, sick and diseased.
i think it's a problem when governments are willing to pay for wars but not to help their people more.  we don't disagree that the west is rich, your quarrel is with the distribution of that wealth.  

Yet instead of realising that most whites in this country are in the same damn position as them they want to continue with this mentality of being held down.

i agree with you that many blacks have adopted a self destructive mentality.  however, the playing field isn't level.  the problem i have is that people aren't taking a realistic approach to their situation.