has islam become distorted?

[nibs]

it seems to me that the perception of islam in many ways is inconsistent with many of the original tenets; and the direct teachings of the qu'ran.

for example, this whole christian/judiasm/islam issue that repeatedly arises in these forums.  initially (and directly in the qu'ran), it wasn't the jews and christians that were the infidel unbelievers.  without question, the qu'ran condemns denying the prophet muhammad, and the false doctrine of the trinity.  that said, there are verses in the qu'ran that embrace islam's fellow monotheistic religions (judiasm, christianity, sabiasm(?)) as believers who will be rewarded.   the qu'ran also states that muslim men can marry christian or jewish women, whereas an unbelieving woman would have to first convert. 
there is the historical context of the crusades, where i believe a fatwa was issued declaring war against the invaders...there is the whole zionist palestinian issue; but it seems like this notion of a schism between christians and muslims or jews and muslims is either a false perception; or a distortion of the original message. 

sura 2:62
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

another more subtle issue is the area of women's rights in islam.  it seems like islam was very progressive for it's time in terms of defining and affording rights to women.  there are verses condemning previous practices of rejecting girl children, estranging wives, denying female children just shares of inheritence, support for divorced wives...etc.  even in the case of the dress code, the stated reason is basically that muslim women should dress modestly so that they can be recognized as muslims and afforded the level of respect they deserve.

sura 33:59
O Prophet ! tell thy wives and thy daughters, and the women of the believers, that they should pull down upon them of their outer cloaks from their heads over their faces. That is more likely that they may thus be recognized and not molested. And ALLAH is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

now, it seems like islam has lost that progressive nature in states like afghanistan and saudi arabia.   much less so in the u.a.e. and maybe egypt, syria...etc.  but even the contrast between some of these states seems to indicate that some muslim communities have lost a bit of that progressive nature in the more orthodox interpretations.

so the question is, is this simply a perception issue, or has the muslim communities attitudes on these and other issues changed with time?   and what is the significance of this change?

 

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

Assalamulaikum my dear and respected brother in Islam... I think what your describing is kind of an internal issue amongst Muslims.  We should generally be inclined towards discussing and dealing with these things internally amongst eachother.  I'll send you a Personal Message.

As for the part that you already put out there, this is an enormous subject you are dealing with.  You already know from our previous discussions that my viewpoint of upholding the Qu'ran is similar to yours.

If I was to try and somehow explain how some Muslims have gotten away from the Qu'ran, my perception is this.  What happened is some Muslims believe that the best way to understand Islam is to understand it the same way that the companions (Sahabah) of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) understood Islam.  So therefore they don't read the Qu'ran and draw their own conclusions, but rather they look into old narrations of stories from the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad and his companions and try to imitate them.

I understand their logic in doing so, and some of the best Muslims I know take this approach.  However, the problem arrises when they fail to realize that Qu'ran was a revelation that is timeless and universal.  Therefore, you should not insist in applying the same approach to the Qu'ran as was taken 1400 years ago.  Infact, some Muslims don't really even focus on following the Qu'ran, they just go straight to narrations of the Prophet and his Companions and begin imitating them.  Moreover, many Muslims skip over the Qu'ran, skip over the Hadith, and just go straight to following the conclusions made by scholars.  They've forgotten that Allah has said that the Qu'ran is easy to read and easy to understand. 

54:17  And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?


I'm going to look into the Qu'ran and find some good examples for the discussion. 

   

[nibs]

If I was to try and somehow explain how some Muslims have gotten away from the Qu'ran, my perception is this.  What happened is some Muslims believe that the best way to understand Islam is to understand it the same way that the companions (Sahabah) of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) understood Islam.  So therefore they don't read the Qu'ran and draw their own conclusions, but rather they look into old narrations of stories from the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad and his companions and try to imitate them.

you've touched on a very profound point here.  as the qu'ran was delivered to the prophet muhammad;  it is something that the prophet himself would have had to interpret.   although, it was delivered over time and the prophet did benefit from continual guidance.

I understand their logic in doing so, and some of the best Muslims I know take this approach.  However, the problem arrises when they fail to realize that Qu'ran was a revelation that is timeless and universal.  Therefore, you should not insist in applying the same approach to the Qu'ran as was taken 1400 years ago.

this reminds me of the sufi shaykh that expressed the idea that the prophet muhammad and the qu'ran provided the balance between moses, who was all about the law and the letter of the law; and jesus, who focused on preparation for the afterlife.  similarly i think that the more orthodox interpretations of islam are analagous to being bound by the letter of the law; while interpretations that are too liberal would undermine the message of preserving order and appreciating this life for what it is.  so the key is finding the right balance.

I think what your describing is kind of an internal issue amongst Muslims.  We should generally be inclined towards discussing and dealing with these things internally amongst each other.

i appreciate your reasoning there; and certainly the question of trying to find the right balance, as well as what the different "balance points" mean is an internal one.
at the same time, keeping that debate 100% internal contributes to this notion that islam is extremely rigid and homogenous while the interpretations are so diverse.   so there is a balance there as well.

[Don Rizzle]

I think what your describing is kind of an internal issue amongst Muslims.  We should generally be inclined towards discussing and dealing with these things internally amongst eachother.  I'll send you a Personal Message.

see this is the problem of muslims today they are not tolerant of other religions like you tryna question easter when everyone is celebrating it, but someone questioning how islam is practised is suddenly private matter. your mind is warped my friend.

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

see this is the problem of muslims today they are not tolerant of other religions like you tryna question easter when everyone is celebrating it, but someone questioning how islam is practised is suddenly private matter. your mind is warped my friend.

The problem wasn't in the post or the question.  Infact, Nibs and I are coming from the same perspective.  The problem is that there are always people waiting in the wings for any oppurtunity to exploit Muslims.  If they find any dispute amongst Muslims they will try to exploit it. 

For example, look at the way you guys always try to make a discord between Tech and I.  In some istances you'll say I'm not a real Muslim cause I'm white, then in other instances you'll say he's not a real Muslim because he doesn't proclaim Islam at the forum the way I do.   

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

Nibs, I was going to look for examples from Qu'ran to illucidate my point, and then I realized I can just use the same examples you used in your opening post.  You may not have understood fully what I was saying in my opening response, I think the examples might help....check my next post I'm about to make....

[nibs]

Nibs, I was going to look for examples from Qu'ran to illucidate my point, and then I realized I can just use the same examples you used in your opening post.  You may not have understood fully what I was saying in my opening response, I think the examples might help....

sura 2:62 suggests that all (atleast most) interpretations of the qu'ran would be valid; however the question that i then ask is what then is the significance of the different interpretations?  there are verses that suggest that some will have greater reward than others and be closer to god than others.  which seems to indicate that some interpretations of the qu'ran would lead to a greater level of understanding and should be favored.

sura 56:7-15
And you shall be divided into three groups:   
Those on the right hand - how lucky are those on the right hand !
And those on the left hand - how unlucky are those on the left hand!
And the foremost; they are truly the foremost;   
They will be those near to God;   
And will be in the Gardens of Bliss -   
A large party from among the first believers,   
And a few from among the later ones,   
Seated on couches inwrought with gold and jewels,   

but my original question was in addition the more subtle question of what interpretation is favored; why is the portrayal and perception of islam so wrong.  there are cultural and historical arguments for how the various interpretations have attained their various levels of prominence; but it seems like the perception of islam denies the inherent dynamism of the religion.

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

sura 2:62
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

^^One viewpoint, is Muslims who won't even try to understand this verse themselves.  They will go straight to what a famous 9th century scholar of the past has said concerning the subject.  On this verse for example, one major scholar of that time period ruled that this verse is talking about Christians of the past who believed in 1 God and that it no longer applied to them since the coming of Muhammad (pbuh).

Now obviously, you and I reading this verse, would not come to this conclusion.  We would read it and understand it as is.  But the scholar ruling on this verse may not even be looking at the verse directly, he may may be reading through thousands of narrations and stories about the Prophet Muhammad and his companions and their dealings and sayings concerning Christians.  The problem is, those narrations may be innacurate or they may only be talking about that specific time period, place, and cirumstances, but the Qu'ran was sent for all ages and all of mankind so it shouldn't be limited to just one specific place, time, and circumstance.

You feel me?  

sura 33:59
O Prophet ! tell thy wives and thy daughters, and the women of the believers, that they should pull down upon them of their outer cloaks from their heads over their faces. That is more likely that they may thus be recognized and not molested. And ALLAH is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

^^Only Sher Ali translated this verse to mean faces:  Check a couple other translations:

Khalifa

O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized (as righteous women) and avoid being insulted. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Yusuf Ali

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And God is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Pickthal

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

Shakir

O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Sher Ali

O Prophet ! tell thy wives and thy daughters, and the women of the believers, that they should pull down upon them of their outer cloaks from their heads over their faces. That is more likely that they may thus be recognized and not molested. And Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

"Progressive Muslims"

O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they should draw their cloaks about themselves. That is better so that they would be recognized and not harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

^^Anyway... that's not the point I want to make.  The point I want to make is that many Muslims won't try to understand this verse directly from the Qu'ran anyway.  They will go to stories and narrations from the Prophet Muhammad and his companions, and begin imitating them.  Most women did not cover their faces, but the Prophet Muhammad's wives did cover their faces.  Some women feel that it's best to imitate the Prophet Muhammad's wives so they cover their faces.


You feel where I'm coming from now?  Many Muslims don't try to read and understand the Qu'ran like you and I do, they just try to read stories from the Prophet's liftetime (Hadith, Seerah, Sunnah) and imitate the Prophet Muhammad and his companions or they follow the jurispudence of a scholar.

[Teddy Roosevelt]

see this is the problem of muslims today they are not tolerant of other religions like you tryna question easter when everyone is celebrating it, but someone questioning how islam is practised is suddenly private matter. your mind is warped my friend.

The problem wasn't in the post or the question.  Infact, Nibs and I are coming from the same perspective.  The problem is that there are always people waiting in the wings for any oppurtunity to exploit Muslims.  If they find any dispute amongst Muslims they will try to exploit it.

For example, look at the way you guys always try to make a discord between Tech and I.  In some istances you'll say I'm not a real Muslim cause I'm white, then in other instances you'll say he's not a real Muslim because he doesn't proclaim Islam at the forum the way I do.   

Oh I get it. You mean the same way you do with Christianity? And no one that you can take seriously on this board has ever said you're not real Muslim because you are white. 90% of the people on this forum are white. It's the fact the you seem to bash Christianity, American culture, and white culture in general, despite the fact that you are a former Christian, are an American, and are so submerged in white culture and living that you probably don't even know. You're a hypocrite. But you say that people will take whatever chance they get to exploit Muslim disputes, despite the fact that almost all the threads you start are to bash anything that has to do with America.

[Kassem]

sura 2:62
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

^^One viewpoint, is Muslims who won't even try to understand this verse themselves.  They will go straight to what a famous 9th century scholar of the past has said concerning the subject.  On this verse for example, one major scholar of that time period ruled that this verse is talking about Christians of the past who believed in 1 God and that it no longer applied to them since the coming of Muhammad (pbuh).

Now obviously, you and I reading this verse, would not come to this conclusion.  We would read it and understand it as is.  But the scholar ruling on this verse may not even be looking at the verse directly, he may may be reading through thousands of narrations and stories about the Prophet Muhammad and his companions and their dealings and sayings concerning Christians.  The problem is, those narrations may be innacurate or they may only be talking about that specific time period, place, and cirumstances, but the Qu'ran was sent for all ages and all of mankind so it shouldn't be limited to just one specific place, time, and circumstance.

You feel me? 

sura 33:59
O Prophet ! tell thy wives and thy daughters, and the women of the believers, that they should pull down upon them of their outer cloaks from their heads over their faces. That is more likely that they may thus be recognized and not molested. And ALLAH is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

^^Only Sher Ali translated this verse to mean faces:  Check a couple other translations:

Khalifa

O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized (as righteous women) and avoid being insulted. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Yusuf Ali

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And God is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Pickthal

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

Shakir

O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Sher Ali

O Prophet ! tell thy wives and thy daughters, and the women of the believers, that they should pull down upon them of their outer cloaks from their heads over their faces. That is more likely that they may thus be recognized and not molested. And Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

"Progressive Muslims"

O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they should draw their cloaks about themselves. That is better so that they would be recognized and not harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

^^Anyway... that's not the point I want to make.  The point I want to make is that many Muslims won't try to understand this verse directly from the Qu'ran anyway.  They will go to stories and narrations from the Prophet Muhammad and his companions, and begin imitating them.  Most women did not cover their faces, but the Prophet Muhammad's wives did cover their faces.  Some women feel that it's best to imitate the Prophet Muhammad's wives so they cover their faces.


You feel where I'm coming from now?  Many Muslims don't try to read and understand the Qu'ran like you and I do, they just try to read stories from the Prophet's liftetime (Hadith, Seerah, Sunnah) and imitate the Prophet Muhammad and his companions or they follow the jurispudence of a scholar.

'
your are right even tho the hadith,seerah,sunnah may only apply to certain very unique situations they take it run with it and forget about the quran.