Who atoned for your sins? I'll give you a hint: It wasn't Muhammad...

[Trauma-san]

It was actually the prince of peace, Jesus Christ. 

[nibs]

muhammad never made that claim. 

can you explain something to me?  you have a guy like george w bush, a killer responsible for the deaths of thousands of individuals, women and children included...this is a guy that believes in jesus and claims that prayer inspired him to start war.

is this "jesus atonement" automatic?  are you suggesting that a guy like george bush is no longer accountable for his own sins, because he believes in jesus?  this guy once made that very claim to me.  belief in jesus was all that matters.

is there no accountability for those that believe in jesus?

[dexter]

evil PAGANS!

[coola]

muhammad never made that claim. 

can you explain something to me?  you have a guy like george w bush, a killer responsible for the deaths of thousands of individuals, women and children included...this is a guy that believes in jesus and claims that prayer inspired him to start war.

is this "jesus atonement" automatic?  are you suggesting that a guy like george bush is no longer accountable for his own sins, because he believes in jesus?  this guy once made that very claim to me.  belief in jesus was all that matters.

is there no accountability for those that believe in jesus?

hold up, you denounce terrorist muslims (i'm presuming) but your argument is Bush ? i dont think many people on this board think Bush is a good person, christian or not...

[King Tech Quadafi]

Atonement for sins is this wonderfully convinient principle that u can do whatever the fuck u want as it is inherent in you. You have no responsibility. We are animals on two feet.

[coola]

Atonement for sins is this wonderfully convinient principle that u can do whatever the fuck u want as it is inherent in you. You have no responsibility. We are animals on two feet.

i always thought of it as our sins BC were forgiven, and future sins can be forgiven from then on... doesnt mean you can get away with anything, only good people genuinly ask for forgiveness, because they realise their wrong.

[nibs]

hold up, you denounce terrorist muslims (i'm presuming) but your argument is Bush ? i dont think many people on this board think Bush is a good person, christian or not...

you need to define terrorists clearly.

people have a right, and a responsibility to fight against injustice and oppression.

i don't believe that suicide bombers who have invented this argument that "martyring themselves" is a free ticket into "heaven" have any legitimate basis for those beliefs.  for one, it's not a real sacrifice in those terms, it's a tradeoff.  the qu'ran specifically condemns people "inventing" paths to "heaven".  the whole thng seems like a distortion.  i don't believe there are back doors into heaven.

however, groups like hamas, hezbollah, the insurgents in iraq...etc. all have an obligation to attack the israeli presence and aggressions against palestine; and lebanon, when israel was active there; and now the u.s. presence in iraq.

so you need to be clear about who and what you are talking about.  i don't have any sort of blanket condemnation as you suggest; things are evaluated on a case by case basis.
 
without question george w bush is among the most evil men of our times. 

i always thought of it as our sins BC were forgiven, and future sins can be forgiven from then on... doesnt mean you can get away with anything, only good people genuinly ask for forgiveness, because they realise their wrong.

it was like that before atonement.  the rule has always been repentence -> forgiveness. the rule has always been live right, strive to be right -> reward...

i ask what has changed then?  every other serious religion pretty much states what you have stated; real american mentioned jc...what is he bringing to the table from your perspective?  because it sounds like you are saying jc is confirming what was already known.

[Trauma-san]

Atonement for sins is this wonderfully convinient principle that u can do whatever the fuck u want as it is inherent in you. You have no responsibility. We are animals on two feet.

no, that's your ignorant interpretation of the bible.  The Bible is very clear about that, as well, but you ignore it.

James 2:17 - 2:26 is all about that.  You've probably never read it before, though.

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Trauma-san]

muhammad never made that claim. 

Nobody said he ever did, just like Jesus Christ never claimed his birthday was December 25th. I think you're missing the point here, brotha nibs. 

[nibs]

Nobody said he ever did, just like Jesus Christ never claimed his birthday was December 25th. I think you're missing the point here, brotha nibs. 

i am missing the point because christians celebrate december 25 which was a pagan holiday.  the argument is why are christians adhering to pagan holidays.

what pagan holidays are you suggesting that muslims adhere to with your atonement question?  otherwise i don't see the parallel.

no, that's your ignorant interpretation of the bible.  The Bible is very clear about that, as well, but you ignore it.

it is almost ironic that you would quote james.  noone is disagreeing with the teachings of james in the bible, throughout that book, james consistently mentions a direct relationship with god; praying directly to god...etc.  james is jesus brother; yet consistently he teaches a direct relationship with god. 
it's the teachings of paul that are suspect; paul is the guy widely regarded as having distorted the teachings of christ.

the verses you quoted, and the book of james only further illustrates the point i was trying to make:
you are the one that mentioned jesus and atonement.  you haven't answered the question of what has changed?

if you read the book of james, it suggests nothing has changed.  faith + good works. 

[WestCoasta]

^^^ dude, he's just sayin that if some faggot who preaches Islam comes on and talks shit about his beliefs and tells him where he is wrong, he can do the same back to him


and there u have the beautifullness and peacefullness of religion.... ahhh 

[Trauma-san]

^^^ dude, he's just sayin that if some faggot who preaches Islam comes on and talks shit about his beliefs and tells him where he is wrong, he can do the same back to him


and there u have the beautifullness and peacefullness of religion.... ahhh 

Thank you.

[King Tech Quadafi]

Atonement for sins is this wonderfully convinient principle that u can do whatever the fuck u want as it is inherent in you. You have no responsibility. We are animals on two feet.

no, that's your ignorant interpretation of the bible.  The Bible is very clear about that, as well, but you ignore it.

James 2:17 - 2:26 is all about that.  You've probably never read it before, though.

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

lol @ u quoting the bible

go quote a Dr Seuss book while youre at it

[coola]

Atonement for sins is this wonderfully convinient principle that u can do whatever the fuck u want as it is inherent in you. You have no responsibility. We are animals on two feet.

no, that's your ignorant interpretation of the bible.  The Bible is very clear about that, as well, but you ignore it.

James 2:17 - 2:26 is all about that.  You've probably never read it before, though.

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

lol @ u quoting the bible

go quote a Dr Seuss book while youre at it

well infinite should go quote a where's wally book for all i care.