Author Topic: Islam : Cult?  (Read 882 times)

WestCoasta

  • Guest
Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2006, 08:42:15 PM »
ya seriously, I was just about to say, do u guys fuckin listen to yourselves?

u all sound ridiculous arguing about some shit that neither has an idea if it's true or not  :laugh:
 

Sikotic™

Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2006, 08:51:28 PM »
I'm no athiest. I got beliefs, but who the hell cares what I believe. It's not fact...it's hardly even theory. It's all based on faith, and you can't fight faith with faith because there is no right or wrong answer.

Going back and forth with scriptures, you're wasting your time. All religious texts have errors and flaws in them. For one they were written by man. Secondly, they're thousands of years old.
My Chihuahuas Are Eternal

THA SAUCE HOUSE
 

King Tech Quadafi

  • His Royal Highness
  • Muthafuckin' Don!
  • *****
  • Posts: 7297
  • Karma: -221
  • i think you betta recognize...
Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2006, 10:14:06 PM »
lol at this shit....

islam is not a personality cult, islam never worshipped a human being, islam never gave 2 shits about material possessions


islam commands you to question islam! do you dumb fucks not understand this? the quran says dont blindly follow the faith of ur parents. seek the truth on ur own initiative!
"One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" was his response. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."

- Lewis Carroll
 

Shallow

  • Muthafuckin' Don!
  • *****
  • Posts: 7278
  • Karma: 215
  • I never had a digital pic of myself before
Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2006, 07:02:02 AM »



ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.


here you have the bible saying the exact same thing this guy is criticizing the qu'ran for saying.  is he not also criticizing the bible then?




Paul said that and just like Moses I believe he adds things to appease the times and maybe himself. That's the difference. One is written by a man out of his will while the other is written by God, and that's why I critisize.


As for your long responses. I think it was made clear at the beginning of this thread that this was not a critique of Islam. It was a response to Infinite to show him that you can make any religion look evil, like Infinite goes out of his way to make Christianity look bad. Yes some of the stuff posted may have been wrong, just like Infinite posts false facts about Christianity. You didn't have to take all that time to respond to the original post because it was just a jab at Brian.
 

nibs

  • Muthafuckin' Don!
  • *****
  • Posts: 1191
  • Karma: 1
  • aco forever
Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2006, 07:49:28 AM »
Paul said that and just like Moses I believe he adds things to appease the times and maybe himself. That's the difference. One is written by a man out of his will while the other is written by God, and that's why I critisize.

so you disagree with paul?  that's interesting.  because it's largely the ideas about christ that paul introduces that causes the split between islam and christianity on many issues, particularly the nature of christ.  ofcourse, you also disagree with the more judaic aspects to christianity as well which is what constitutes the common ground with christianity and islam.

also, the qu'ran was delivered to muhammad by the angel gabriel, and represents instruction given to muhammad over a period of time.

sura 2:97
Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by God's will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe


gabriel also interprets a vision for daniel in the old testament.  gabriel does these sorts of things.  so i think it's more accurate to say "the qu'ran is the instructions gabriel gave the prophet muhammad" rather than god's direct word. 

Quote
As for your long responses. I think it was made clear at the beginning of this thread that this was not a critique of Islam.  It was a response to Infinite to show him that you can make any religion look evil, like Infinite goes out of his way to make Christianity look bad.

i understood the original point of the post, i was challenging that in itself.  i disagree with this notion that people should hide behind their "beliefs" and not defend them.

without question, things like whether or not moses or muhammad actually spoke with god, or whether or not jesus was not conceived but god's spirit directly entered into mary...no debate that there is no proof for ideas like that.

at the same time there is historical evidence and information about muhammad, early islam and how that spread, early christianity, the apostles and how that church grew.  there are alot of facts that can be debated.  and if people have a qu'ran or a bible, why shouldn't you be able to question whether or not they completely believe that doctrine, and whether or not they believe that religious institutions or movements are actually consistent with that doctrine?

aside from the pure belief stuff (that starts with the nature of god and how various prophets have obtained their inspiration...) there are alot of facts that can be debated and clarified. 

i responded to the original post to demonstrate that if accusations are levied, people shouldn't try to hide from it, they should address it. 

if infinite has the wrong idea about aspects of christianity, if i have the wrong idea as well...then correct those misperceptions if you will.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 08:31:04 AM by nibs »
"a four letter word is going out to every single enemy" - kam
 

Diabolical

Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2006, 12:49:41 PM »
Christianity is worse IMO.
 

Don Jacob

  • Muthafuckin' Don!
  • *****
  • Posts: 13827
  • Karma: -136
  • don status, bitch
Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2006, 03:45:19 PM »
lol at this shit....

islam is not a personality cult, islam never worshipped a human being, islam never gave 2 shits about material possessions


islam commands you to question islam! do you dumb fucks not understand this? the quran says dont blindly follow the faith of ur parents. seek the truth on ur own initiative!

<scratches head laughs and thinks if the tables were to be turned....lol>
::impersonating tech::

^ look at this chump over here yo, he be gettin all butt hizurt over the some nigga attackin hiz religion like he's serious or something B, word is BORN yo. shit i'm straight off the streets i'm king tech betta recognize, i rep T town....what what!!  GREAT WHITE NIZOOOOORTH.


::impersonates robert stack::

if you, or anyone you know has been over taken by the Ithinkimfromthehoodandblackidous viris please contact 1-800-i-need-to-get-back-in-touch-with my roots


R.I.P.  To my Queen and Princess 07-05-09
 

King Tech Quadafi

  • His Royal Highness
  • Muthafuckin' Don!
  • *****
  • Posts: 7297
  • Karma: -221
  • i think you betta recognize...
Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2006, 03:50:26 PM »
lol at this shit....

islam is not a personality cult, islam never worshipped a human being, islam never gave 2 shits about material possessions


islam commands you to question islam! do you dumb fucks not understand this? the quran says dont blindly follow the faith of ur parents. seek the truth on ur own initiative!

<scratches head laughs and thinks if the tables were to be turned....lol>
::impersonating tech::

^ look at this chump over here yo, he be gettin all butt hizurt over the some nigga attackin hiz religion like he's serious or something B, word is BORN yo. shit i'm straight off the streets i'm king tech betta recognize, i rep T town....what what!!  GREAT WHITE NIZOOOOORTH.


::impersonates robert stack::

if you, or anyone you know has been over taken by the Ithinkimfromthehoodandblackidous viris please contact 1-800-i-need-to-get-back-in-touch-with my roots

Jake youre my carnale. I fucks with you no Jomo. But Im hurt. Really I am  :-\.

 Not because youre dissing me. Or cuz youre impersonating me, but because youre doing it wrong. Cmon now, you know I dont post like that. At least impersonate me with style.   >:(
"One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" was his response. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."

- Lewis Carroll
 

Shallow

  • Muthafuckin' Don!
  • *****
  • Posts: 7278
  • Karma: 215
  • I never had a digital pic of myself before
Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2006, 07:30:49 PM »
Paul said that and just like Moses I believe he adds things to appease the times and maybe himself. That's the difference. One is written by a man out of his will while the other is written by God, and that's why I critisize.

so you disagree with paul?  that's interesting.  because it's largely the ideas about christ that paul introduces that causes the split between islam and christianity on many issues, particularly the nature of christ.  ofcourse, you also disagree with the more judaic aspects to christianity as well which is what constitutes the common ground with christianity and islam.

also, the qu'ran was delivered to muhammad by the angel gabriel, and represents instruction given to muhammad over a period of time.

sura 2:97
Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by God's will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe


gabriel also interprets a vision for daniel in the old testament.  gabriel does these sorts of things.  so i think it's more accurate to say "the qu'ran is the instructions gabriel gave the prophet muhammad" rather than god's direct word. 

Quote
As for your long responses. I think it was made clear at the beginning of this thread that this was not a critique of Islam.  It was a response to Infinite to show him that you can make any religion look evil, like Infinite goes out of his way to make Christianity look bad.

i understood the original point of the post, i was challenging that in itself.  i disagree with this notion that people should hide behind their "beliefs" and not defend them.

without question, things like whether or not moses or muhammad actually spoke with god, or whether or not jesus was not conceived but god's spirit directly entered into mary...no debate that there is no proof for ideas like that.

at the same time there is historical evidence and information about muhammad, early islam and how that spread, early christianity, the apostles and how that church grew.  there are alot of facts that can be debated.  and if people have a qu'ran or a bible, why shouldn't you be able to question whether or not they completely believe that doctrine, and whether or not they believe that religious institutions or movements are actually consistent with that doctrine?

aside from the pure belief stuff (that starts with the nature of god and how various prophets have obtained their inspiration...) there are alot of facts that can be debated and clarified. 

i responded to the original post to demonstrate that if accusations are levied, people shouldn't try to hide from it, they should address it. 

if infinite has the wrong idea about aspects of christianity, if i have the wrong idea as well...then correct those misperceptions if you will.


I see Paul the same way I see Moses, and I disagree with a few things he says and think if Jesus were to return he would go against much of what Paul says. Jesus in the Gospel is much more philosophical where as Paul is more instructional. I'm not quite sure what you meant when you said I disagree with the judaic aspects and the common ground so I'll have to ask you to explain. As for the nature of Christ and Paul, the Gospels themselves make it very clear as to what the nature of Christ was that he was of God, and if I'm not mistaken many of the Gospels not accepted by the Church said the same thing. So I'm not sure if the idea that Jesus was God came about because of Paul. But who knows for sure? (the answer is nobody).

With regards to you responding to the thread in debate, I just meant the thread was made not for debate or to raise question but to make a point to Infinite. You more than have the right to defend Islam and point out misconceptions. I just don't think anyone on this thread was buying into those misconceptions and that's why I said it was pointless. As for Infinite. He doesn't have misconceptions. He has agendas. He knows when he is wrong, he just wants to insult people.
 

Shallow

  • Muthafuckin' Don!
  • *****
  • Posts: 7278
  • Karma: 215
  • I never had a digital pic of myself before
Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2006, 09:02:23 PM »
Also, I know about Gabriel. Gabriel acts as the voice of God and as far as anyone is concerned it isn't Gabriel's words but God's words so in theory you are talking to God if you are talking to Gabriel.
 

J Bananas

  • Guest
Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2006, 09:05:20 PM »
*burns a u in the intersection screaming "when will it stop?!?!?"*
 

nibs

  • Muthafuckin' Don!
  • *****
  • Posts: 1191
  • Karma: 1
  • aco forever
Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2006, 05:09:49 PM »
As for the nature of Christ and Paul, the Gospels themselves make it very clear as to what the nature of Christ was that he was of God, and if I'm not mistaken many of the Gospels not accepted by the Church said the same thing.

shallow, there are three issues here, but for the most part i think we are in agreement.
a)  after having re-read several books of the gospel, i can mostly agree with a metaphorical interpretation of jesus life; such as the one proposed by john.  jesus is referred to as the word; elsewhere as the light.  the word representing god's will, god's laws...etc; the light representing wisdom of the path towards godliness.  a human that embodied those attributes for a short time on earth. 
for the most part, i see no problem if all of the seemingly literal references to jesus as a person, including his return and future reign; are interpretted metaphorically as a global return of love, peace, harmony and god's natural order.  i can agree with the epistles of paul and john...etc. after interpretting their statements about christ metaphorically as a reference to the metaphor for god's word.
i maintain my disagreement with literal interpretations of the new testament which suggest that the physical form of the man should be worshipped; but accept the metaphoric interpretation which i believe is what is being suggested.  i have not thoroughly gone through each book, applied the "word"/"light" metaphor and interpretted the meaning in that context; but for the most part i feel comfortable saying i can agree with that. 

Quote
So I'm not sure if the idea that Jesus was God came about because of Paul. But who knows for sure? (the answer is nobody).
b) there is some level of historical understanding of how the books of the new testament were compiled, who authored them...etc.  paul himself wrote half of the new testament, luke was one of his pupils.  matthew, john and [simon] peter actually knew jesus, luke and mark did not.  james was jesus brother (half-brother); and there was a difference in how they delivered their various messages if not within the messages themselves.  so there are some facts to know there. 

Quote
Gabriel acts as the voice of God and as far as anyone is concerned it isn't Gabriel's words but God's words so in theory you are talking to God if you are talking to Gabriel.
c) i'm wary of taking too literal of an interpretation of the meaning of gabriel talking to muhammad or daniel, and exactly what "god's words" means.  is it a disembodied voice?  does the angel appear?  is it a voice in one's head or a vision?  i remain uncertain how to literally interpret these things.  it seems to me that the person being spoken too has to somehow translate/relay/interpret this...etc.  i'm not 100% clear on the nature of angels; they are described in many ways. 

additionally, messages are relevant for their time.  i interpret messages as guidance that pushes people in the direction they need to be moving; rather than the absolute representation of what needs to be.  surely if a particular action exceeds (in someway) the guidelines proscribed that isn't a bad thing.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2006, 05:12:40 PM by nibs »
"a four letter word is going out to every single enemy" - kam
 

Shallow

  • Muthafuckin' Don!
  • *****
  • Posts: 7278
  • Karma: 215
  • I never had a digital pic of myself before
Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2006, 08:41:00 PM »
Are you responding as a Muslim or as a seeker of truth or agnostic? Because as a Muslim I'd think you'd believe that Gabriel talking to the Prophet would be literal.




As for what Jesus was and how he was connected to God. I don't believe in it metaphorically. While I am open to anythign and don't discoint anything, I believe that it was the word of God that entered the body of the baby and that the body of Christ was a vessel for that word to be heard and that light to be seen. The idea of why is very simple; God had spoken to prophets in the past and he kept sending them and they kept getting it wrong afterwards and skewing it for their own sake or for the sake of what they thought was right, so he sent the word down and put it in a body so that the word could be heard unaltered. That's how I believe it and it suits me fine to believe it that way. If when I die I am told that it was not that way then I'll gladly accept that, but until I have solid reason to believe otherwise I'll believe this way.

As for how the book was written or by whom; it has never really been figured out historically. The Gospel of John may not have even been written by him. No one can know for sure. As for half brother James. I used to think he was a half brother in that he was the a son of Mary and Joseph after Jesus was born, but it was told to me that he was the son of Joseph with a previous wife. It doesn't say if he is an older or younger brother as far as I know, so I am not sure if it is step or half brother.
 

nibs

  • Muthafuckin' Don!
  • *****
  • Posts: 1191
  • Karma: 1
  • aco forever
Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2006, 11:05:38 PM »
Are you responding as a Muslim or as a seeker of truth or agnostic? Because as a Muslim I'd think you'd believe that Gabriel talking to the Prophet would be literal.

i cannot speak for all muslims.  the qu'ran states that all muslims should seek and only be guided by the truth.  thus i would consider myself both a muslim and a seeker of the truth.

i accept that the angel gabriel spoke to muhammad several times, and this was through visions.  to emphasize the wariness i mentioned earlier, this is what the qu'ran says:
sura 16:102
Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
sura 2:97
Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by God's will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-


you will notice that it doesn't explain the nature of angels or how they communicate with and get direction from god.  it does not explain how angels instruct people and prophets specifically. 
in sura 18:60-82 the qu'ran tells a story of how moses observed an enlightened servant of god and did not understand much of the direction he was given.  similarly it would be arrogant for me to state that i completely understood: the nature of angels, the exact nature and purpose of how gabriel instructed muhammad, and exactly how to interpret that instruction.

the qu'ran itself states that god uses allegory to communicate ideas:
sura 2:26
GOD does not shy away from citing any kind of allegory,* from the tiny mosquito and greater. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did GOD mean by such an allegory?" He misleads many thereby, and guides many thereby. But He never misleads thereby except the wicked


thus i am hesitant to adhere to such strict literal interpretation and conclusions as you drew earlier.

Quote
As for what Jesus was and how he was connected to God. I don't believe in it metaphorically. While I am open to anythign and don't discoint anything, I believe that it was the word of God that entered the body of the baby and that the body of Christ was a vessel for that word to be heard and that light to be seen.

as jesus was the word (and this is also confirmed in the qu'ran) and the light; thus his life is the example for others to follow.  the word of god being god's law, god's natural order...etc.  we don't disagree here. 
if i look through the rest of the new testament; and replace "christ jesus" with "the word of god"; now  the writings of john and paul are more acceptable to me; as they are not invoking worship of a man who lived and died; but what that man represented: which is the word of god.  that is the metaphor of which i was speaking; the same metaphor confirmed within the qu'ran. 

Quote
As for half brother James. I used to think he was a half brother in that he was the a son of Mary and Joseph after Jesus was born, but it was told to me that he was the son of Joseph with a previous wife. It doesn't say if he is an older or younger brother as far as I know, so I am not sure if it is step or half brother.

this was something the catholic church made up as it maintains that mary was always a virgin, even after her marriage to joseph.  what's the purpose of getting married if to stay a virgin?

matthew 13:55-56
Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these things?


so according to matthew, who actually knew jesus; jesus had several brothers (who are named) and sisters as well (who being women need not be named).

the bible mentions his mother, father and brothers and sisters.  the catholic church decides that his father had another wife (unworthy of mention) and his mother always remained a virgin.

how is the catholic church taken seriously?

« Last Edit: May 06, 2006, 11:15:16 PM by nibs »
"a four letter word is going out to every single enemy" - kam
 

Shallow

  • Muthafuckin' Don!
  • *****
  • Posts: 7278
  • Karma: 215
  • I never had a digital pic of myself before
Re: Islam : Cult?
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2006, 09:19:22 AM »
So you believe that the word of God that Muhammad received may have been an altered word of the angel? If so, doesn't that go against what Islam is? I'm not sure I'm just asking.


Even if you replace Jesus with The Word in te letters of Paul I still disagree with much of what Paul says. What with this whole worshipping a man business? Know one worships a man in Christainty. We worship God. The same God that created the Universe. The same God that lives inside each of us. And the same God that entered Mary's womb and told the people how to live. That is how Christians see it. Jesus for us wasn't some guy who the Lord spoke to. He was the Lord in flesh form for 33 years or whatever it was, but he existed long before those 33 years years and long after. It's never a question of worshipping a man with me.



How do you know the church just made up the step bother theory? And if the Church made it up and changed the Bible then why wouldn't they leave that out? Also, just like John there is no roof that Matthew himself wrote that (just getting the info out there).

The verse you quoted still shows no proof that they were younger brothers and sisters or that they were Mary's children. It says that He was the son of Mary, but not that the others were. The Bible also never explains what happened to Joseph, leading many to believe he was a much older man who died when Jesus was still rather young. It is very plausible that he was an older man with children who had lost his wife and needed a younger woman to mother his children and that's how he was arranged to Mary. I am not saying I know for sure that this is the case. I am not so bold that I can pretend to know something like this for certain.