believing the unproven (god)

[nibs]

in my opinion, people should not dedicate their lives to unprovable things; at the same time i do believe in god.   

7 has asked me to prove that god exists; and thus resolve this seeming conflict.

proving god is actually a simple task, as the trick is in how god is defined.  the physical universe exists.  this is a fact.  as it exists, there is a cause for it's existence.  science, physics has numerous theories to this cause.  god is simply the causeless cause.  the first cause.  god is that which makes existence possible.  i believe in god, as i believe the universe has a cause.  science supports this notion.  who would deny this.

the real question that 7 was trying to ask is "what is the nature of this cause?"  "did the cause go away, or does it still exist?"  these are the questions that most religions try to answer, as most religions actually try to convey knowledge.  try to explain these issues. 

additionally, there is this notion of the spirit, the soul, and the physical body...etc; and how all of these ideas fit together.  there is a huge gap between man and god which these spiritual ideas attempt to partially fill.

everyone can understand and agree that the physical universe has a cause, and that the whole god debate is really a debate about the nature of this cause.

the spirit, the soul; in many ways these are unique to an individual.  people have and report spiritual experiences, there are many known techniques (yoga/meditation disciplines...etc) that are dedicated to teaching one to discover the spiritual nature of oneself.  thus, the existence of the spirit/soul can only be proven to oneself.  at the same time, once this proof is completed one will know their spiritual side, and not simply believe.

in this sense religion is a guide both philosophically and spiritually.  religion tries to convey how to think about things, and some provide techniques that teach how to experience things and thus know.

in contrast, there are things that are unprovable:
whether or not the bible is the word of god
whether or not moses spoke with god or with aliens
whether or not jesus was god incarnate
whether or not muhammad spoke with the angel gabriel or was the last prophet...

where islam differs from christianity or judiasm is that the principles of islam do not depend on the prophet muhammad in anyway.  the qu'ran states ultimately that the proof of god is in existence, all the illustrations within the qu'ran bear out this principle. 

if religion is about an individual and god; then the specifics of who the prophets are and the nature of a last day are not fundamental to those beliefs in any way.  as a result, i believe in god, as i believe that the universe has a cause.  for me, religion is about understanding this cause.  i believe the principles of islam as they are not dependent on unproveable ideas, but merely present a philosophy for discovering the truth.

the texts that i study i use guides to a greater understanding of these truths which we cannot deny.  i study texts outside of islam, (hinduism, buddhism, egyptian mysticism); my criteria is in not believing the unprovable. 

[7even]

the trick is in how god is defined. 

From that part on I knew I wasn't going to tear the post above apart. Of course, that changes a lot.

The thoughts brought forward here remind me of pantheism. Having said that, I might add that I agree with Schopenhauer, who said that pantheism is "an euphemism for atheism".

[Don Seer]

my personal opinion.

i _never_ believed. even as a kid under 5 years old being 'tricked' at sunday school i saw through the scams of them saying "taste this in the cup" (it was salt water) .. "thats jesus's tears" ... etc etc..  even at that age i knew it was a scam. i thought the other kids were idiots..

from having a feeling of being pushed into christianity against my will from a young age by various factors

this then turned into an abject distaste for all forms of religion as i saw it as a method of control.

then one day years later i spoke to a vicar at his home, i was only there as i was friends with his foster son. and he said something to me then which suprised me, and which has stuck.

i dont know how we got to that point, but he said.. something along the lines of.. its not about believing in god or not. but whether you believe in the principles laid down in the bible

in other words.. don't take it literally.. word for word. but view it as guidelines to living a righteous life.

this coming from the vicar of my local chapel was a revelation.


i stil have a hatred for people who try to use religion to bully, or control people, or who try to belittle non religious people, or opposiing faiths. but i'm at peace with those who can be at peace with everyone else.

i'm not a follower..

the science.

as i said in the other post.. there is a gene that people who believe are more likely to have.

going by the above.. i don't have it.

[nibs]

(7 don't need to brag 'bout how muthafuckin' Active he iz) - The thoughts brought forward here remind me of pantheism.

i agree with pantheistic principles.  every level of existence (material, spiritual, soul..etc) is an expression of god in some form.  

(7 don't need to brag 'bout how muthafuckin' Active he iz) - Having said that, I might add that I agree with Schopenhauer, who said that pantheism is "an euphemism for atheism".

here i disagree, because pantheism allows for more than just an explanation of god, but also for the nature of man; and thus the potential of man.  pantheism begins to provide a basis for trying to understand ideas like afterlife, the purpose for existence...etc.   atheism would deny that.

[Teddy Roosevelt]

even as a kid under 5 years old being 'tricked' at sunday school i saw through the scams of them saying "taste this in the cup" (it was salt water) ..

Wtf?

[Don Seer]

even as a kid under 5 years old being 'tricked' at sunday school i saw through the scams of them saying "taste this in the cup" (it was salt water) ..

Wtf?

yup.. sunday school.. back of a dusty church in some annexed room.. passing around cups with salty water.. "here kids have these cups".. i watched the sunday school lady make them.. and she was all "clsoe your eyes and sip" etc etc.. telling the kids that this was jesus's tears... i was like "blah".. as you would with salty water.. and she was trying to lay this guilt trip shit on (no it wasnt a roman cathlic church either.. i'm christened COE (church of england therefore protestant).. i was having none of it.

i do remember being 'excluded' from games etc because i wouldn't conform. muthafuckas!

[Jip]

my personal opinion.

i _never_ believed. even as a kid under 5 years old being 'tricked' at sunday school i saw through the scams of them saying "taste this in the cup" (it was salt water) .. "thats jesus's tears" ... etc etc..  even at that age i knew it was a scam. i thought the other kids were idiots..

from having a feeling of being pushed into christianity against my will from a young age by various factors

this then turned into an abject distaste for all forms of religion as i saw it as a method of control.

then one day years later i spoke to a vicar at his home, i was only there as i was friends with his foster son. and he said something to me then which suprised me, and which has stuck.

i dont know how we got to that point, but he said.. something along the lines of.. its not about believing in god or not. but whether you believe in the principles laid down in the bible

in other words.. don't take it literally.. word for word. but view it as guidelines to living a righteous life.

this coming from the vicar of my local chapel was a revelation.


i stil have a hatred for people who try to use religion to bully, or control people, or who try to belittle non religious people, or opposiing faiths. but i'm at peace with those who can be at peace with everyone else.

i'm not a follower..

the science.

as i said in the other post.. there is a gene that people who believe are more likely to have.

going by the above.. i don't have it.

i remember when i was a child, my mother never got me or my sister christened or anything along those lines as she was forced into catholism when she was younger

she would tell us how her mother couldnt be bothered to take her and her sisters to church one sunday and not to tell their father

and the next day at school(catholic) the priest or whatever he was shouted at them that they would and i quote "burn in hell for not going to church"

yelling this at children is wrong

[Don Seer]

^ i know a similar thing

the wife of my boss started going to a church.. and he's a very non-relgious guy.. a bit of a wise ass..

and he told us that she would come home upset sometimes because they were telling her that once they died they'd be apart because of course.. she was going to heaven, and him to hell!!!



as i mentioned before.. there is no problem with religion.. just the people who use it to control and manipulate. power corrupts..

[Teddy Roosevelt]

even as a kid under 5 years old being 'tricked' at sunday school i saw through the scams of them saying "taste this in the cup" (it was salt water) ..

Wtf?

yup.. sunday school.. back of a dusty church in some annexed room.. passing around cups with salty water.. "here kids have these cups".. i watched the sunday school lady make them.. and she was all "clsoe your eyes and sip" etc etc.. telling the kids that this was jesus's tears... i was like "blah".. as you would with salty water.. and she was trying to lay this guilt trip shit on (no it wasnt a roman cathlic church either.. i'm christened COE (church of england therefore protestant).. i was having none of it.

i do remember being 'excluded' from games etc because i wouldn't conform. muthafuckas!

Overseer the rebel. That's a sickening thought that they'd want someone to beilive that they are drinking tears. I've never had a Sunday School class like that. Must be you crazy Euros.

[nibs]

(Overseer) - i _never_ believed.

blind faith is largely unsatisfactory.  i agree there.

(Overseer) - i stil have a hatred for people who try to use religion to bully, or control people, or who try to belittle non religious people, or opposiing faiths.

i find those practices amusing as well.  most of them are based on both blind faith, and that that particular blind faith is absolutely correct.  as if one religion had a lock on knowledge.  what's even funnier is how religious beliefs sneak into seemingly neutral contexts.  if you ever look at conspiracy theorists and the freemason/illuminati evidence...the root of much of that debate is in the freemasons and illuminati using religious symbols from egyptian mysticism, and other groups.  the reason those symbols are evil is actually a christian vs pagan (christians view egyptian mystics as pagans) debate.  whether these individuals have bad intentions is a separate issue.

(Overseer) - in other words.. don't take it literally.. word for word. but view it as guidelines to living a righteous life.

i think that is a powerful idea.
many religious texts also try to explain the nature of man and existence symbolically; thus what it means to have eternal life, or what the true benefit of becoming righteous is.  alot of ideas beneath that literal surface; and those ideas are largely universal.  

in ancient times religion was a pursuit of knowledge, now it has become robotic rituals for many.  you can see that idea of a pursuit of knowledge in christian gnosticism, sufism in islam, mystic kabbalism...etc.

[Don Seer]

even as a kid under 5 years old being 'tricked' at sunday school i saw through the scams of them saying "taste this in the cup" (it was salt water) ..

Wtf?

yup.. sunday school.. back of a dusty church in some annexed room.. passing around cups with salty water.. "here kids have these cups".. i watched the sunday school lady make them.. and she was all "clsoe your eyes and sip" etc etc.. telling the kids that this was jesus's tears... i was like "blah".. as you would with salty water.. and she was trying to lay this guilt trip shit on (no it wasnt a roman cathlic church either.. i'm christened COE (church of england therefore protestant).. i was having none of it.

i do remember being 'excluded' from games etc because i wouldn't conform. muthafuckas!

Overseer the rebel. That's a sickening thought that they'd want someone to beilive that they are drinking tears. I've never had a Sunday School class like that. Must be you crazy Euros.

lol... i think i was so upset when my folks came to get me i never went again.. i tore that muthafucka up!! lol..

i did used to have to go to church a lot when i was in the boy scouts.. it weren't no thing.. the organisation had a christian background.. i got to burn stuff and go camping, had my own squad of kids under my command (who i didnt oppress.. i ran that shit fair.. actually they had problems coz a lot of kids wanted to switch to my 'pack').. shit was a good compromise..

lol.. i just realised.. i was dubbing eazy duz it for the b.g's.... lol

[Don Seer]

(Overseer) - in other words.. don't take it literally.. word for word. but view it as guidelines to living a righteous life.

i think that is a powerful idea.
many religious texts also try to explain the nature of man and existence symbolically; thus what it means to have eternal life, or what the true benefit of becoming righteous is.  alot of ideas beneath that literal surface; and those ideas are largely universal.  

in ancient times religion was a pursuit of knowledge, now it has become robotic rituals for many.  you can see that idea of a pursuit of knowledge in christian gnosticism, sufism in islam, mystic kabbalism...etc.

yup.. i'm happy with anyone using any religious text, or even better combining the wisdom of them all to try and find the best path for them or whatever they're looking for.

they say before the word.. stories were passed as tales, and as metaphors..so if these were written down they shouldn't be taken literally.

[Machiavelli]

The human mind is too simple to comprehend the complexity of God and the whole universe

[Don Seer]

yup.. thats another thing.. i fully accept that i dont know everything, that i'm not perfect, but that i strive towards being good and moral in the things i do, and am willing to accept change.