Author Topic: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...  (Read 969 times)

virtuoso

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Re: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2006, 07:43:39 PM »

Sorry my bad ant dont know why i said your article. the article doesnt mean anything? lol please just stop now, so you can not see that the fox news article is heavily spun to give the impression that another election will never be held again. You are an absolute joke you worship a republican government which is the most criminal, deceitful dangerous american government there has possibly ever been.
 

Ant

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Re: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2006, 10:07:21 PM »
Listen, I'm not going to comment on Chavez sincerity.  It's never good to do such a thing, as its entirely possible that Bush has the best of intentions as well.  In fact, I'd imagine many of the worst leaders in the world had good intentions, Hitler being the often used example.

But, despite good intentions, Chavez is leading Venezeula down the wrong path.  Chavez is a champion of the left, because he is applying far-left thinking almost entirely across the board.  What's great about leftist thinking, is its targetted at the motivations of the poor.  It speaks to them, even if it doesn't help them.

For example, poor people love to hear "you're getting more money" but they really dont care where that money is coming from, or how much worse off the country will be because that money was given to them.  So to Tech who thinks I contradicted myself because I said he's loved by the poor, but still a bad president.  Trust me, I did not.  Rather, your reasoning is off.  Just because a president is liked by the poor doesn't mean he is doing things in their best interest.  People often desire things that are not in their best interests.  Why do poor people gamble more, and do drugs more than middle class?  It's really not uncommon for people to do things, or support ideas, that don't help them.  Because on the surface what Chavez is doing seems to be great for them.

Essentially he is doing this.... he takes massive amounts of oil revenue, and invests it in programs that supposedly help the poor.  Some of the programs give money directly too the poor.  But this is a questionable method. Especially when you consider the demographics of Venezuela.  It's a poor country... so what is the harder thing to do as a politician?  give away money to the poor, or invest in other things that aren't as tangible to your largest constituency?  Obviously, the easiest thing to do is just give money away to the poor.  Which is what Chavez is doing, and its why he is so loved by the poor.  But the poor are in no position to judge correctly the net benefits of Chavez's investments.  If they were informed and wise enough to do such a thing, they more than likely wouldn't be poor.

So what else is Chavez doing?  Nationalizing industry, raising minimum wage, and a host of other things that discourage investment.  I saw this with my own eyes when I was there.  Businesses don't want to invest in Venezuela because they're scared of Chavez.  Now, regardless of what everyone wants to believe, businesses are what lift people out of poverty.  I talked to many business people in Venezuela.  Chavez is making their lives much harder. 

Some examples,

1) he created tons of red tape so its difficult to even start a business
2) he regulates foreign competition so its difficult to get access to good services from foreign firms.
3) he nationalizes industry, which just scares the shit out of any business person.  Why build a company? if the state can just take you over, and kick you out on ur ass.

Other problems in venezuela.  They've money is worthless, and their entire banking system is completely fucked.  It's ridiculously time consuming to make transactions over 1000$.   Their roads are fucked too.  Travel is a bitch.  Their airports blow, and because of Chavez its much more difficult to get in and out of Venezuela because he kicked the foreign airlines out for the most part.

Maybe he is geniunely trying to help the poor.  But your way off if you think he is this socialist hero.  You're way off if you even think socialism would work all that well. 

 

big mat

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Re: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2006, 10:29:17 PM »
it's already like that in canada, u can get elected as many times as u can
 

Don Jacob

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Re: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2006, 01:47:55 AM »
if you mother fuckers can say italy i'm saying that too AND spain


R.I.P.  To my Queen and Princess 07-05-09
 

7even

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Re: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2006, 02:05:14 AM »
italy and spain ... those fuckin wannabe latinos  :D

id choose some asian shit, a place with good buddhism/taoism spots, and not too much oppression from the crazy govt
Cause I don't care where I belong no more
What we share or not I will ignore
And I won't waste my time fitting in
Cause I don't think contrast is a sin
No, it's not a sin
 


virtuoso

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Re: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2006, 04:19:00 AM »

Ant he is raising the educational levels, raising the literacy levels these arent ill thought out policies a strong economies has to have a strong backbonein the form of the people having sufficient skills. We are still talking about a terrible minimum wage but it has risen slightly which can only be a good thing. We are taling about people that without that free health care, who would simply die. Morally to let them sufer would be totally unacceptable and improving the nations health can also only improve the economy. There has been so mcuh rampant corruption in venezeula, did you ask the people what it was like before chavez? they really did live under a brutal dictatorship before him. I am not saying he is perfect but I do think that it would be a really intriguing experience living there. He has changed the country immensely this idea that he is investing wrongly I just can't agree with he is investing in the people to bring about a better standard of life for them.
 

virtuoso

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Re: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2006, 04:20:35 AM »

Again I apologise for somehow mentioning your name when it was that dimwitted clown real american asking me lol.
 

Ant

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Re: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2006, 09:33:54 AM »
You[re speaking with certainty which is almost always WRONG.  Stop talking in definitives.

A few things...

"Raising minimum wage can only be a good thing"

No it can't only be a good thing.  Economic decisions always have "trade-offs."  You need to stop thinking that every liberal idea is good, and every conservative idea is bad.  There are bad things that happen when you raise minimum wage.  I'm 90% sure you will always refuse to believe this, but it is true.  You really should do some research, because I'm also 90% sure that you never took anytime to research this possibility.

"he is raising education levels, raising literacy levels"
Yeah, supposedly this is true.  But so what?  Look, every politician pushes good reforms and bad ones.  Big deal, I'm unimpressed.  He is also doing many things that are bad for his country.  Like nationalizing industry.

"it would be intriguing to live in venezuela"
it would be interesting to live in any country.  But it really annoys me that you seem to think venezuela is this liberal paradise.  It is NOT.  Most of the country is extremely poor.  There is tons of crime.  In general you can't go out once the sun goes down.  People are scared to even let their kids go out past 6-8 o'clock.  There is still tons of corruption.  The business climate is getting worse not better.  The banking system sucks.  The only thing venezuela has going for it, is tons and tons of beautiful women, and lots of natural resources

Finally, don't talk about what a strong economy has to have, because you a) don't understand economics and b) don't care to educate yourself enough to clearly understanding economic thinking.  You only want to hear the side that confirms your existing worldview, just like Cwalker loves stuff that confirms his worldview.  All chavez is doing, is exploiting natural resource wealth to make himself look good.  Anyone that wants to become president for life in Venezuela could do the same thing.  That being, take oil revenues, and spend spend spend spend spend, so you look like a savior.  Big deal.

In the end, socialist policies are destined to fail.  They ignore economic realities, just like you do.

Here's a good place to start if you want to learn ecomics... Read Greg Mankiws blog.  He's a harvard professor that wrote the most used book on economics. 

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/

Granted, a blog isn't a true education.  So I'd also recommend his textbooks, and there are plenty of other good economic books that help you learn both sides.  If I get some time too, I'll dig out the Foreign Policy article I recently read on Chavez. 
 

virtuoso

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Re: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2006, 10:16:10 AM »
Your speaking in definites which is wrong completely wrong I had to study a series of economics modules during my first year of uni, economics was also encompassed within some parts of the business studies course I took at college. It is bemusing that you defend the right to pay people as literal slaves, he hasnt changed the minimum wage beyond all recognition he has made it slightly more bearable, the minimum wage is still extremely poor though. You make these ill thought suggestions that economists don't see minimum wages as a positive, that is just completely false and misleading. I will reemphasise what I have said before when the minimum wage was finally introduced over here in england and the rest of britain it was actually found to have a positive effect because it was increasing peoples disposable incomes. Business leaders who prior to the implementation of the minimum wage were warning that it would lead to mass unemployment, were made to look foolish when they changed their minds. I know that there is still a mass wave of crime in venezeula, heck you show me one nation within south america which isnt riddled with crime. I said the situation for the masses is improving and it is you may see steps like improving the literacy rate and giving free health care to the people as small insignificant things but to them these are massive steps forward a real improvement. Again this is a man who despite the constant smearing and clearly criminally poisonous propoganda by tthe neocon media like that fox news article illustrated all too well is a much more tolerant man than the previous dictatorships who acted as U.S bitches. Privatisation and nationalisation both have their good and bad points as you well know, whether they work depends upon the people running things.

Clearly this man is a threat to the U.S and he knows full well that the world needs the oil, he is using the revenues to better the life for his people.  In many ways the country is heading down the opposite direction to the U.S because contray to what you suggest the Bush administration does not give a shit about americans, you tell that to the parents of songs and daughters which are dying on a daily basis in the middle east, you tell that to the katrina victims who were left hung out to dry, you tell that to the rescue workers at ground zero who have contracted terrible respiratory conditions, and then what does the government do? it falsifies the reports telling everyone that everything is fine the air perfectly safe., You tell that to the soldiers who have been exposed to the effect of depleted uranium poisoning, back when DU was first used they issued soldiers with manuals telling them about the deadly effects and how each area in which DU has been used  should be disinfected. Soldiers are now going to war oblivious to the fact that their own weapons could probably kill them. I find it almost funny in an ironic sense that you should bring up Chavez in a disparaging light when compared to these psychotic criminals.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2006, 10:19:00 AM by virtuoso »
 

Ant

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Re: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2006, 10:49:28 AM »
Your speaking in definites which is wrong completely wrong I had to study a series of economics modules during my first year of uni, economics was also encompassed within some parts of the business studies course I took at college. It is bemusing that you defend the right to pay people as literal slaves, he hasnt changed the minimum wage beyond all recognition he has made it slightly more bearable, the minimum wage is still extremely poor though.

Great, you took a few classes.  So did a lot of people that don't really understand economics thoroughly.  Heck, I don't  understand economics thoroughly.  The reality is, economics is a complicated subject matter, but people don't view it as such.  We think that we're all entitled to a meaningful opinion on economic issues.  This is wrong, and unfair intellectually.  I don't think for a moment I know things with certainty, but I do know I've spent many more hours debating economic issues than you.  I have a small library of economic texts that I've read through.  I make  it a point to read both left and right economists cuz I want to know what makes the most sense.  But, still I don't think I know everything.  The difference is, you think you know things with certainty.

You make these ill thought suggestions that economists don't see minimum wages as a positive, that is just completely false and misleading.

Many economists don't, some do.  But what all good economists agree on, is that there are trade-offs for minimum wage increases.  It's not an absolute positive.  There are side-effects to every economic policy.  The question is, is there a net positive or a net negative.  And, are there alternative strategies that would achieve an objective more efficiently.  I am guessing you spend zero time contemplating the negative effects of minimum raise wages.

I will reemphasise what I have said before when the minimum wage was finally introduced over here in england and the rest of britain it was actually found to have a positive effect because it was increasing peoples disposable incomes. Business leaders who prior to the implementation of the minimum wage were warning that it would lead to mass unemployment, were made to look foolish when they changed their minds.

This is pure subjective speculation.  Send me a thorough economic explanation of this topic, and I'll consider it.  Most intelligent economists that I read don't predict massive negative effects on the economy when you raise minimum wages.  They just dont think its an optimal strategy for helping society.  In fact, the problem with most economic policies, is that the side-effects are usually subtle.  That's why people judge economic policies more by their description than by their net effect.  It's not easy to see the net effect, it is easy to understand a policies intentions. 

I know that there is still a mass wave of crime in venezeula, heck you show me one nation within south america which isnt riddled with crime. I said the situation for the masses is improving and it is you may see steps like improving the literacy rate and giving free health care to the people as small insignificant things but to them these are massive steps forward a real improvement. Again this is a man who despite the constant smearing and clearly criminally poisonous propoganda by tthe neocon media like that fox news article illustrated all too well is a much more tolerant man than the previous dictatorships who acted as U.S bitches.

I'm not talking about whether this guy is good or bad as a  person.  I'm just trying to let you know that you are way off base when you immediately assume that Chavez is some liberal hero just because he bad-mouths Bush.

Privatisation and nationalisation both have their good and bad points as you well know, whether they work depends upon the people running things.

Oh, so you can understand there are too sides to the nationlization debate, but not the minimum wage debate.  How convenient, considering nationalization is a far-left utopia.  Unforunately, the economic perspective is exactly what you said.  The realists know that nationalization would be interesting if only you could find "philosophy kings" to manage the economy.  But the problem is, philosophy kings only exist in Plato's Republic.  They don't exist in real life.  The french government right now is building a search company to complete with google. It's called quaero.  Let's see how well that goes.  More than likely its gonna fall on its face.  Just like every other attempt by government to control industry.

contray to what you suggest the Bush administration does not give a shit about americans, you tell that to the parents of songs and daughters which are dying on a daily basis in the middle east, you tell that to the katrina victims who were left hung out to dry, you tell that to the rescue workers at ground zero who have contracted terrible respiratory conditions, and then what does the government do?

What exactly are you talking about here.  I never said the policies of GWB are good for America.

I find it almost funny in an ironic sense that you should bring up Chavez in a disparaging light when compared to these psychotic criminals.

Now the truth.  The only reason why you fell in love with Chavez is because he bad mouthed Bush.  Admittedly, I too, enjoyed hearing him trash talk Bush.  But, that's no way to judge a man.  This is the most bullshit statement you made.  Attacking my arguement by comparing Chavez to Bush, and suggesting I'm pro-bush.  I'm far from it.  But I'm not gonna be a fool and worship this guy just because he says bad things about Bush. 

I try to see reality.  And the reality is, Chavez is not a hero.  He's a politician... who knows if he is good or bad as a person.  But I do know, he isn't this mythical hero that you want to believe he is.  And that is my main point.  Get over the worship of this guy. 



 

virtuoso

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Re: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2006, 10:53:14 AM »

Lol I will respond to you in a private message otherwise it's going to be hogging the forum.
 

King Tech Quadafi

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Re: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2006, 02:46:23 PM »
By the way, I wonder what the poor in Venezuela think of Chavez using oil resources to buy influence across the region instead of at home. I am talking about his publicity stunts like giving discounted gas to people in places in Harlem when his own citizens are the ones that really need the relief. He doesn't care about them, he only cares about raising his own status. He also made a fool of himself with his UN speech.

When the economny tanks under all his BS socialist policies maybe the people of Venezuela will wake up.



does your mother shave or trim her pubes?
"One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" was his response. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."

- Lewis Carroll
 

King Tech Quadafi

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Re: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2006, 02:59:00 PM »
Listen, I'm not going to comment on Chavez sincerity.  It's never good to do such a thing, as its entirely possible that Bush has the best of intentions as well.  In fact, I'd imagine many of the worst leaders in the world had good intentions, Hitler being the often used example.

But, despite good intentions, Chavez is leading Venezeula down the wrong path.  Chavez is a champion of the left, because he is applying far-left thinking almost entirely across the board.  What's great about leftist thinking, is its targetted at the motivations of the poor.  It speaks to them, even if it doesn't help them.

For example, poor people love to hear "you're getting more money" but they really dont care where that money is coming from, or how much worse off the country will be because that money was given to them.  So to Tech who thinks I contradicted myself because I said he's loved by the poor, but still a bad president.  Trust me, I did not.  Rather, your reasoning is off.  Just because a president is liked by the poor doesn't mean he is doing things in their best interest.  People often desire things that are not in their best interests.  Why do poor people gamble more, and do drugs more than middle class?  It's really not uncommon for people to do things, or support ideas, that don't help them.  Because on the surface what Chavez is doing seems to be great for them.

Essentially he is doing this.... he takes massive amounts of oil revenue, and invests it in programs that supposedly help the poor.  Some of the programs give money directly too the poor.  But this is a questionable method. Especially when you consider the demographics of Venezuela.  It's a poor country... so what is the harder thing to do as a politician?  give away money to the poor, or invest in other things that aren't as tangible to your largest constituency?  Obviously, the easiest thing to do is just give money away to the poor.  Which is what Chavez is doing, and its why he is so loved by the poor.  But the poor are in no position to judge correctly the net benefits of Chavez's investments.  If they were informed and wise enough to do such a thing, they more than likely wouldn't be poor.

So what else is Chavez doing?  Nationalizing industry, raising minimum wage, and a host of other things that discourage investment.  I saw this with my own eyes when I was there.  Businesses don't want to invest in Venezuela because they're scared of Chavez.  Now, regardless of what everyone wants to believe, businesses are what lift people out of poverty.  I talked to many business people in Venezuela.  Chavez is making their lives much harder. 

Some examples,

1) he created tons of red tape so its difficult to even start a business
2) he regulates foreign competition so its difficult to get access to good services from foreign firms.
3) he nationalizes industry, which just scares the shit out of any business person.  Why build a company? if the state can just take you over, and kick you out on ur ass.

Other problems in venezuela.  They've money is worthless, and their entire banking system is completely fucked.  It's ridiculously time consuming to make transactions over 1000$.   Their roads are fucked too.  Travel is a bitch.  Their airports blow, and because of Chavez its much more difficult to get in and out of Venezuela because he kicked the foreign airlines out for the most part.

Maybe he is geniunely trying to help the poor.  But your way off if you think he is this socialist hero.  You're way off if you even think socialism would work all that well. 



this is the problem, your facts here are skewed too. i dont profess to be a expert on venezuela but several things u must consider.

1st- the majority of the people of venezuela are better off now than before.
2nd- for all the bitching about socialist policies, i sure hope youre not implying that applying neoliberal policies to venezuela would help them more?
you do know thats what they were doing before right? when 85% of the land was in the hands of 15% of the people. when huge elite run monopolies basically dominated the economy.

You have this assumption that socialist policies is basically soviet collective farms. take into consideration the still existent although heavily marginilized private sector in venezuela and the huge oil revenues, more of which by the way are coming back to venezuela than before.

u fail to adress social cleavages in venezuela, white/black, rich/poor that always complicate discussion on venezuela.

dont get me wrong, the economy is fucked in venezuela, and chavez's misguided policies has had alot to do with that. international investment is done, the amount of foreign reserves is down and youre right , now is not necessarily the best time to do business but its not a clear cut situation here as economics rarely is. but unless you consider the previous regimes neglect, the influence of america in destabilizing not only chavez govt but the society as well through its backing of strikes etc, then your argument isnt too credible.
"One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" was his response. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."

- Lewis Carroll
 

Ant

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Re: If you had to live in one NON WHITE country in the world...
« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2006, 03:23:35 PM »
the policies I oppose....

1) governement nationalization of industry.
2) minimum wage raises
3) massive increases in government spending... why? because it amounts to bribery.  Any politician could use oil revenue to invest if they want to win points.  It takes a lot more political courage not to spend, than it does to spend.

Also, in regards to:

1st- the majority of the people of venezuela are better off now than before.

These types of analysis are biased.  Firstly, "better off" in what way.  And "better off" for how long.  If you make it harder for businesses to function government supporting improvements in well-being are fleeting.

Again, I'm not saying Chavez is worse than the guy before him.  Nor am I saying he has bad intentions for his people.  I'm just saying, he isn't this liberal hero that we should all be worshipping.