Atheist Sam Harris Destroys Conservative Talk Show Host in Debate

[Ant]

It's long, but if you want to kill some time... an entertaining read.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,372,n,n

I'm glad to see more people vocally criticizing religion. 

[virtuoso]

I have read most of this but my response that religion is to blame is a red herring personally I do not follow a particular faith but I do believe in god but nontheless my point is who cares whether god exists or not? the idea that religion is to blame for all of the ills in the world is nonsense. Ultimately the power games are played by the elites in society, sure religion is used to steer this but religion is being manipulated to steer this message. When the elites wanted to destroy Iraq and create a partitioned state within a state there they disseminated the message to the evangelical christians that George Bush and Tony Blair and all these other scum bags were doing gods work, now the evangelicals are a symptomn of what is going on sure but they are not the cause.

 It makes constant reference to muslims and besides the point that this man tries to imply that the intelligence services were powerless to stop these evil hijackers from carrying out their evil jihad which is a complete fraud.....but anyway that is me disgressing the point is these extremist muslims are placed into power by the CIA they instigate coups, assasinate people, carry out car bombings, and do whatever it takes to dethrone governments (this is illustrated best in an almost boastful article in the new york time in 2003 i think, about how they setup Mosadeq though I will have to find out what the article is called because I have forgotten). who don't toe the line and in their place comes the extreme element. Then the elites using the media as their a outlet can point the finger at these people some time down the line and cry oh look these are muslim extremists and must be stopped and the cycle continues. Which also then allows for people to point the finger at religion and say well the muslims are trying to kill us because of their jihad.

It's like the palestinian Israel situation, the first reported suicide bomber did not occur until after the intafada of 1997 but of course what also occured at this time was the inception of a new administration and a message of carte blanche to the israelis. So in turn jewish settlements increased exponentially, more curfews were imposed on the palestinians, more unarmed people were shot, unemployment rocketed, water supplies became poisonous to drink food supplies became scarcer and so some palestinians became that enraged and consumed with hate that they did the unthinkable and became suicide bombers, Again though this sick myth is being meddled that no of course their hopeless plight would not drive them to commit suicide and also to kill the people who they see as being responsible for their suffering. It's because their evil religions made them do it. someone does not do something that extreme because of their religion, when they are faced with such tyranny that is their driving force.

Again I am reading disinfo, when I read this he talks about the hijackers talking about their intentions in the mosques but as you may or may not know the BBC and others have reported that some of the hijackers are alive, so we do not actually know who was on the plane and who was not but that is a side issue. The reason I mention 911 is for the same reason he uses it and that is to reason why he thinks that religion is the beast. I should add that I have no problem with athiests and someone should not be looked down upon if they are athiest certainly not. However like I said ultimately it's a red herring religion did not force a police state upon Britain, religion is not the driving force behind this drive in Britain to get everyones DNA, now even and as reported by the Independent DNA testing familiies of the guilty party to, religion did not abolish the bill of rights, religion did not form the 3 unions of the world, religion did not destroy our civil liberties, religion did not turn Britain into a police state. Plus in a sense religious voices havent always been a bad thing. they were the main dissenters to Stalin that is why stalin could not destroy the church directly instead he had to corrupt the system from the inside by having agents train to be preists and work from the inside.

Ultimately this man chooses to ignore the core of this and that is the elites in society are driving the way of thinking they are the ones conditioning populations into accepting and normalising every type of intrusion violation of civil rights and monitoring you could ever dream of. Therefore I just see this type of debate as in fighting, as divisive and ultimately pointless when it's just part of a much bigger picture.

[Ant]

And you choose to believe you know it all. 

[Shallow]

Why are atheists so stupid? There whole system of beliefs depends on logic, fact, evidence and what not yet they actually think it’s the religion and the religious people that cause all this chaos. Farmers didn't pick up arms in the crusades because they wanted to defend Jesus or find the Holy Grail. Sure you had an uneducated bumpkin or two actually thinking that, but if you really look at it you'd see they had no choice. It was join up or die. What do you think would happen to a serf if he refused what his king told him? The whole thing was a political play about land and war and had nothing to do with God. The church had long gotten rid of God by that time. You see in the feudal times a kings first born son would be king, but the king had more than one son so what happened to these kids? Well since they couldn't be king they had to find another institution of respect to join and be a prominent member, and that institution was the Roman Catholic Church. They'd become cardinals and bishops and have no real interest in the religion or what it meant. Eventually they would be on the Papal council and conduct business like they would if they had been king.

Since we line in a capitalist democracy today you don't need sons of kings just business man politicians who tell the uneducated common folk what they want to hear and trick them into following them. The masses get fooled no matter where you go. The communists did it very well and they didn't use God at all. Che Guevara used the ideals of communism and the horrors of oppression to trick his people into committing mass murders. Mao did the same but added in economic growth to get entire towns of people to pitch in their crops and make it seem like they were producing three times what they were, but after half got taxed from each town there was no food left to feed the people and they died of starvation.

When God isn't there a substitute, and no matter what the substitute is the reason for it is the same everywhere; to fight oppression or the fear of oppression. No one was calling the Japanese Kamikaze pilots Shinto extremists when they were suicide bombing US naval ships. They were simply doing what they felt they had to in a time of war. 40 virgins in heaven may be the easiest way to get young men to bomb themselves in the Middle East today but let’s get it straight; they are bombing themselves because someone came up with the idea that it would be an effective way to attack. And what are they attacking, the oppressor, and in their mind the oppressor came when Israel and the western world came in and attacked, and I'll bet my bottom dollar that the guy that came up with the idea to suicide bomb the streets never once thought about doing it himself. What he needed was impressionable youth to brainwash and since Islam was already there he used it to his advantage and the model was followed by all the other rebel leaders. If Islam wasn't there they'd find another way to brainwash. In the 50+ years of oppression they'd figure out away to get the youth and the uneducated to do what they wanted them to do. The bombers would do it for something. They'd do it for their children and children's children. They'd do it for the country. For the people. For the sake of what is fair. You may think that you can't get atheists to kill themselves but you will find them. Atheists commit suicide too. Atheists fight wars too. You just have to find that small percentage that want to do both, and it's a very small percentage. Take the numbers of Muslims in the Middle East that have blown themselves up and compare that with the number that haven't. You are looking at a point of a percent and if you think that you couldn’t find that point of a percent in an atheist middle east then you are an idiot.

[virtuoso]

Well I don't pretend to have a great understanding of religion but cerainly religion is not to blame I used to think so a kid but then I realised that where religion is used, it's being manipulated.

[Merovingian]

Religious fanaticism is one of the true evils in this world.

[Ant]

Well I don't pretend to have a great understanding of religion but cerainly religion is not to blame I used to think so a kid but then I realised that where religion is used, it's being manipulated.

You don't "have a great understanding of religion" but your "certain" religion is not to blame? 

I'd say this is a debatable subject.  I lean towards religion bearing some responsibility for our problems.  Without religion there wouldn't be al-queda.  Nor would GWB be in the white house.

If religion didn't exist politicians could talk more candidly about their ideas.... instead of having to appease an irrational majority. 

Without religion there would be no Hitler.  Maybe this is one-sided.  But it's a bit ridiculous to be "certain" religion is not to blame... when you admittedly don't "understand" much about religion.

--

Of course... as Sam Harris rightly points out.  Even if you can prove religion has a positive impact on the world (which it may not) that doesn't mean religion is real. 

[Ant]

Why are atheists so stupid? There whole system of beliefs depends on logic, fact, evidence and what not yet they actually think it’s the religion and the religious people that cause all this chaos. Farmers didn't pick up arms in the crusades because they wanted to defend Jesus or find the Holy Grail. Sure you had an uneducated bumpkin or two actually thinking that, but if you really look at it you'd see they had no choice. It was join up or die. What do you think would happen to a serf if he refused what his king told him? The whole thing was a political play about land and war and had nothing to do with God. The church had long gotten rid of God by that time. You see in the feudal times a kings first born son would be king, but the king had more than one son so what happened to these kids? Well since they couldn't be king they had to find another institution of respect to join and be a prominent member, and that institution was the Roman Catholic Church. They'd become cardinals and bishops and have no real interest in the religion or what it meant. Eventually they would be on the Papal council and conduct business like they would if they had been king.

Since we line in a capitalist democracy today you don't need sons of kings just business man politicians who tell the uneducated common folk what they want to hear and trick them into following them. The masses get fooled no matter where you go. The communists did it very well and they didn't use God at all. Che Guevara used the ideals of communism and the horrors of oppression to trick his people into committing mass murders. Mao did the same but added in economic growth to get entire towns of people to pitch in their crops and make it seem like they were producing three times what they were, but after half got taxed from each town there was no food left to feed the people and they died of starvation.

When God isn't there a substitute, and no matter what the substitute is the reason for it is the same everywhere; to fight oppression or the fear of oppression. No one was calling the Japanese Kamikaze pilots Shinto extremists when they were suicide bombing US naval ships. They were simply doing what they felt they had to in a time of war. 40 virgins in heaven may be the easiest way to get young men to bomb themselves in the Middle East today but let’s get it straight; they are bombing themselves because someone came up with the idea that it would be an effective way to attack. And what are they attacking, the oppressor, and in their mind the oppressor came when Israel and the western world came in and attacked, and I'll bet my bottom dollar that the guy that came up with the idea to suicide bomb the streets never once thought about doing it himself. What he needed was impressionable youth to brainwash and since Islam was already there he used it to his advantage and the model was followed by all the other rebel leaders. If Islam wasn't there they'd find another way to brainwash. In the 50+ years of oppression they'd figure out away to get the youth and the uneducated to do what they wanted them to do. The bombers would do it for something. They'd do it for their children and children's children. They'd do it for the country. For the people. For the sake of what is fair. You may think that you can't get atheists to kill themselves but you will find them. Atheists commit suicide too. Atheists fight wars too. You just have to find that small percentage that want to do both, and it's a very small percentage. Take the numbers of Muslims in the Middle East that have blown themselves up and compare that with the number that haven't. You are looking at a point of a percent and if you think that you couldn’t find that point of a percent in an atheist middle east then you are an idiot.

Arguments about the value of religion do nothing to prove religions validity. 

Even if religion is good for society... it doesn't mean its real.  And if we don't tolerate a belief in witches... then why do we tolerate beliefs in a false god? 

If nothing else... our belief in a false reality distorts our ability to have reasoned discussions.  People have enough problems reasoning well. They don't need one more thing messing up their ability to think clearly.

[Shallow]

Why are atheists so stupid? There whole system of beliefs depends on logic, fact, evidence and what not yet they actually think it’s the religion and the religious people that cause all this chaos. Farmers didn't pick up arms in the crusades because they wanted to defend Jesus or find the Holy Grail. Sure you had an uneducated bumpkin or two actually thinking that, but if you really look at it you'd see they had no choice. It was join up or die. What do you think would happen to a serf if he refused what his king told him? The whole thing was a political play about land and war and had nothing to do with God. The church had long gotten rid of God by that time. You see in the feudal times a kings first born son would be king, but the king had more than one son so what happened to these kids? Well since they couldn't be king they had to find another institution of respect to join and be a prominent member, and that institution was the Roman Catholic Church. They'd become cardinals and bishops and have no real interest in the religion or what it meant. Eventually they would be on the Papal council and conduct business like they would if they had been king.

Since we line in a capitalist democracy today you don't need sons of kings just business man politicians who tell the uneducated common folk what they want to hear and trick them into following them. The masses get fooled no matter where you go. The communists did it very well and they didn't use God at all. Che Guevara used the ideals of communism and the horrors of oppression to trick his people into committing mass murders. Mao did the same but added in economic growth to get entire towns of people to pitch in their crops and make it seem like they were producing three times what they were, but after half got taxed from each town there was no food left to feed the people and they died of starvation.

When God isn't there a substitute, and no matter what the substitute is the reason for it is the same everywhere; to fight oppression or the fear of oppression. No one was calling the Japanese Kamikaze pilots Shinto extremists when they were suicide bombing US naval ships. They were simply doing what they felt they had to in a time of war. 40 virgins in heaven may be the easiest way to get young men to bomb themselves in the Middle East today but let’s get it straight; they are bombing themselves because someone came up with the idea that it would be an effective way to attack. And what are they attacking, the oppressor, and in their mind the oppressor came when Israel and the western world came in and attacked, and I'll bet my bottom dollar that the guy that came up with the idea to suicide bomb the streets never once thought about doing it himself. What he needed was impressionable youth to brainwash and since Islam was already there he used it to his advantage and the model was followed by all the other rebel leaders. If Islam wasn't there they'd find another way to brainwash. In the 50+ years of oppression they'd figure out away to get the youth and the uneducated to do what they wanted them to do. The bombers would do it for something. They'd do it for their children and children's children. They'd do it for the country. For the people. For the sake of what is fair. You may think that you can't get atheists to kill themselves but you will find them. Atheists commit suicide too. Atheists fight wars too. You just have to find that small percentage that want to do both, and it's a very small percentage. Take the numbers of Muslims in the Middle East that have blown themselves up and compare that with the number that haven't. You are looking at a point of a percent and if you think that you couldn’t find that point of a percent in an atheist middle east then you are an idiot.

Arguments about the value of religion do nothing to prove religions validity. 

Even if religion is good for society... it doesn't mean its real.  And if we don't tolerate a belief in witches... then why do we tolerate beliefs in a false god? 

If nothing else... our belief in a false reality distorts our ability to have reasoned discussions.  People have enough problems reasoning well. They don't need one more thing messing up their ability to think clearly.

Your response has nothing to do with my post. I never tried to show religion was real. I never said pagan religions shouldn't be tolerated. I always saw most of the bible as analogy anyway. I'm still a Christian. All the jewish bible stuff is most likely mythology, or at the very least a message through symbols. Also keep in mind that it is very debatable whether many Greeks even believed in their myths as fact. Much of what I read about it makes it seem like people knew what it was and what it's purpose was and it wasn't to believe in Gods. Now when the Romans took it they used it to oppress people, but I'm not so sure about the Greeks. As for Jesus he is based on historical accounts. Whether they are fabricated is up to to you, but they come from the same types of sources that tell us what Julius Caesar did, or how many Spartans beat how many Persians.

[Ant]

Our historical knowledge of Jesus is not at all similiar to our historical understanding of Caesar.  This is very obviously true.  Historians can openly debate the validity of our understand of Caesar, but they cannot do the same with Jesus.  If they could you wouldn't believe as you do.  As any well-versed historian will show you the history of jesus as portrayed in the bible is highly suspect. 

And your post was about the about the good religion does for the world.  You call atheists "stupid."  But aren't you "stupid" if you believe in something that obviously isn't true?

There are people who are deeply dependent on religion to live happily.  These people will never change their minds.  But anyone that is open minded can easily learn it isn't real.  Just do a little research.  Don't be so quick to call people dumb that know more than you.  Before you criticize anyone you have to show they are wrong.  It makes no sense when you call people "stupid" that see more clearly than you.

[7even]

^He was just catching feelings, don't be so mean to him.

[Shallow]

Our historical knowledge of Jesus is not at all similiar to our historical understanding of Caesar.  This is very obviously true.  Historians can openly debate the validity of our understand of Caesar, but they cannot do the same with Jesus.  If they could you wouldn't believe as you do.  As any well-versed historian will show you the history of jesus as portrayed in the bible is highly suspect. 

And your post was about the about the good religion does for the world.  You call atheists "stupid."  But aren't you "stupid" if you believe in something that obviously isn't true?

There are people who are deeply dependent on religion to live happily.  These people will never change their minds.  But anyone that is open minded can easily learn it isn't real.  Just do a little research.  Don't be so quick to call people dumb that know more than you.  Before you criticize anyone you have to show they are wrong.  It makes no sense when you call people "stupid" that see more clearly than you.

I called you stupid because you clearly made up what wasn't there. There was nothing in my post about the good that religion does for the world. Read it again. Maybe you aren't stupid. Maybe you're just trying to be an asshole. Either way there is no merit in what you said. I called them stupid for not being able to see what they pride themselves on seeing; outside the box. It's like too many are so mad over the years for living in a world where they are pushed into believing in a God that they just wanto blame the religion and refuse to see when the same terrible things happen in non-religious countries or for non-religios reasons. When Muslims blow themselves up it's Islam's fault, but when the Viet Minh did it the same people just ignore it because they don't have an answer they want to present to the masses.

Anyone with an open mind can understand why it may not be real. it takes a closed mind to just assert it isn't. Prove to me that there is no God or spiritual force. I'm not telling you there is and I'm not trying to prove it. You on the other hand are so sure.

Caesar was a more extreme case since so much was written about him from so many sources. But what about Socrates? Most of the source info we have on him come from stories written by Plato, yet he isn't so suspect and it all has to do with the lack of anything supernatural. If one line in Plato's writing said something about Socrates flying or healing hte sick he'd be dismissed by atheists as fiction. If Caesar was said to have taken on an army of thousands alone with a flaming sword it'd be the same for him. If David Blaine of Chris Angel were around 2000 years ago and people wrote about what they did you'd think they were made up people. I'm not saying Jesus existed on Earth 2000 years ago. I can never know for sure. I'm saying you can never know for sure either.

[virtuoso]

Lol oh dear you just highlighted your ignorance in one sentence when I said I do not pretend to have a great understanding I simply meant I am no expert but I understand them well enough to comment whereas you just said "without religion there would be no al queda" lol excuse me? the CIA created Al Queda, the CIA used Al Queda in the Kosovo conflict and your telling me without religion there would be no Al Queda 

[Ant]

Lol oh dear you just highlighted your ignorance in one sentence when I said I do not pretend to have a great understanding I simply meant I am no expert but I understand them well enough to comment whereas you just said "without religion there would be no al queda" lol excuse me? the CIA created Al Queda, the CIA used Al Queda in the Kosovo conflict and your telling me without religion there would be no Al Queda 

please explain how al-queda can exist without the existence of religion?

[virtuoso]

You said that Al Queda could not exist without religion, it was created artifically by the CIA, it's been used several times by the CIA it was used in recent wars. and your asking me how it could exist if it wasnt for religion . It exists because of the west! Type in Al Queda used in Kosovo congressional reports, or type in Osmagate, though wait.....I can't use the second one because that professor is lying despite citing the congessional report itself, so yeah find the congressional report itself.