an immediate pull out of american troops will be disastrous

[King Tech Quadafi]

Tech, I'm dissapointed in you man.  Have you not learned from history what happens when Muslims call on the West (kuffar) to solve their problems?

Look, that's great if Iraq was always under an Islamic dynasty in the past.  That's great if they used to be under the Ommeyed's or Abbasids or later the Safavids and then finally the Ottoman Empire.  What's your point?  The big problem I see was when the Ottoman fell and they fell under British colonialism.  And since then it's been a bitter struggle to relieve themselves of servitude towards the West. 

I'm not being naive or idealistic.  As Muslims, do we depend on Allah for help or George Bush? 

Look, if you want practical examples, Iran is a region next to Iraq that was once controlled by America and freed itself of foriegn intervention.  Somalia is also a country that has recently began freeing itself of foriegn control.  There are many examples.  As far as the Sunni, Shiite thing, Muqtadr Al-Sadr is wise enough to get together with another prominent Sunni scholar and they could work something out.  Look, there's been struggles between rival Islamic factions since the days of Aisha and Ali (raa), on into your country Afganistan in the early 90's after the Soviets left.  But they didn't sell themselves off and beg for Jews and Christians to come in and handle their affairs.  They worked it out, and some governments were better than others. 

But you can't just give up and sell your soul to George Bush. 

Look Tech.. now you officially can't complain about anything else that happens in Iraq from now on, because it was you that pleaded for Master Bush to stay there and save the poor Muslims.

lol...u cant compare revolutionary Iran or modern day Somalia to present day Iraq. There is no basis for a comparison. the poor muslims cant save themselves, understand this point. its not like everyone is gonna magically realize theyre all muslims, hold hands and sing kumbaya.

let me ask u a question.  if american pulled out immediately, what would happen, in your estimation?

[virtuoso]

That depends Tech I have great suspicions that some of those mercs in the country are clandestine groups working on behalf of one of more of the governments, therefore is it really beyond the realms of belief that they are the ones planting the car bombs? Again the prime motivation for asking that besides the fact that this has been repeatedly exposed in declassified documents is, what the hell were SAS soldiers doing dressed as arabs attacking iraqi police? As another example, Kevin Fulton formerly a british agent who was planted inside the IRA as a bomb maker stated that whenever the "terrorists" had meetings the ranking "captains" were british intelligence. Indeed one of Sinn Feinns long serving and  highest ranking members was exposed as a british agent last year and was shortly after assasinated. Yet the same argument had been put forward that the british soldiers needed to stay in Ireland to quell and contain and establish a peaceful Ireland when all the time they were controlling the situation. I am not implying that the IRA did not exist before british intelligence but it goes from being basically a rag tag bunch of pissed freedom fighters, to a deadly efficient group who could carry out bombings and shootings with real precision. It has come out in the news that many of the british intelligence informants within the IRA were the ones responsible for carrying out the assasinations but the response put forward by the british government was that the assets needed to blend in and not arouse suspicion so they were put in a difficult position. That is a plausible explanation and one I had kind of accepted until that is mr fulton's revelations.

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

let me ask u a question.  if american pulled out immediately, what would happen, in your estimation?

All the Uncle Tom Iraqi's will be rooted out (Iraqi's that benefited off the occupation).  Then eventually someone like Muqtada Al-Sadr will negotiate a deal for peace with an Amir (leader) of the Sunni Ulama.
 

[King Tech Quadafi]

let me ask u a question.  if american pulled out immediately, what would happen, in your estimation?

All the Uncle Tom Iraqi's will be rooted out (Iraqi's that benefited off the occupation).  Then eventually someone like Muqtada Al-Sadr will negotiate a deal for peace with an Amir (leader) of the Sunni Ulama.
 

Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani, the highest Shia authority in Iraq gave his blessings to the govt in power there. LOL, whose gonna root him out?

Muqtada Al Sadr is going to renegotiate peace deals? Death Squad Al Sadr is gonna negotiate a peace deal , lol?

Who is the Amir of the Sunni Ulama. You do realize that the Shura Council, is an umbrella group representing various Sunni groups.
Who is gonna lead them? Sunni tribes from Anbar? BUT THEY CURRENTLY TAKE PART IN THE GOVT. So i guess they;ll already have been uprooted. Al Qaeda in Iraq? Theyre gonna negotiate peace deals? Those fucks play a huge role in the disastrous turn of affairs in secreterian relations.

You see Infinite, I would love for what u suggest to occur But it is a dream, a fantasy and does not resemble the reality on the ground. We have to choose between the lesser of 2 evils, not blatantly denounce everyting in the hopes some miracolous Good will occur.


Virtouso, I am well aware of what you are sayin. Im well aware of those 2 british agents in Basra.  I am well aware of the at least 4 military bases the Americans are building. I am well aware of the historical success of colonial practices of divide and conquer. What Im sayin, is that the alternative is worse than what we re seein now, as bad as it is.

Iraq needs to be decentralized and split into autonomous regions.

[virtuoso]

I wasn't trying to score points basically my point was if the overwhelming majority of these major bombings are being carried out by clandestine operational groups then the continuing presence there will lead to more clandestine operaions and thus an even greater upsurge in the genuine reprisal attacks that occur. Until a point where the agenda has been reached and the infrastructure and people there are totally broken. I am not being patronising but the analogy between wanting the coalition to stay despite their obvious tactics is like a loving dog being smacked upside the head kicked to the ground but still lovingly coming back to it's owner for protection and love.

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani, the highest Shia authority in Iraq gave his blessings to the govt in power there. LOL, whose gonna root him out?

-Ayotollah Sistani has only really given tacit approval to the government.  Basically, the Shia' leadership is trying to be wise and play both sides of the fence by placing their people in power, and still maintaining an Iraqi version of Hezbollah style militia via Al-Sadr's Mehdi militia keeping credibility in the streets.

Muqtada Al Sadr is going to renegotiate peace deals? Death Squad Al Sadr is gonna negotiate a peace deal , lol?

-That Al-Sadr death squad thing is blown out of proportion, it's US propaganda straight from CNN.  Read any of Sadr's interviews, he mentions often that he blames America for the bombings and killings and he does not blame the Sunni's.  Also, he sends out calls to all Muslims and Iraqi to oppose the occupation and calls for a full withdrawal of US troops.

Who is the Amir of the Sunni Ulama. You do realize that the Shura Council, is an umbrella group representing various Sunni groups.
Who is gonna lead them? Sunni tribes from Anbar? BUT THEY CURRENTLY TAKE PART IN THE GOVT. So i guess they;ll already have been uprooted. Al Qaeda in Iraq? Theyre gonna negotiate peace deals? Those fucks play a huge role in the disastrous turn of affairs in secreterian relations.

An Amir from the Sunni Ulama can not truly emerge at this time because obviously they are under siege at the moment from US occupation forces. 

If you want to talk about Al-Queda's supposed presence in Iraq; you should know that their supposed leader Usama's objectives have never been to battle Shia' and he has stated in interviews even prior to Sept. 11th that he felt that the big problem was American hegemony and American occupation of Muslim lands; and that that was to be dealt with first, and that once that was accomplished it would be easier to deal peacefully with what he considered lesser disputes such as Shia/Sunni disputes.

You see Infinite, I would love for what u suggest to occur But it is a dream, a fantasy and does not resemble the reality on the ground. We have to choose between the lesser of 2 evils, not blatantly denounce everyting in the hopes some miracolous Good will occur.

You've fallen victim to media propaganda.  You should get rid of the television in your house.  It was their objective always to dictate what the debate will be, and to offer two solutions, both of which will ultimately benefit them, and let the idiot public debate between the two solutions.  Don't be so silly as to fall for that.

 

-

[King Tech Quadafi]

Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani, the highest Shia authority in Iraq gave his blessings to the govt in power there. LOL, whose gonna root him out?

-Ayotollah Sistani has only really given tacit approval to the government.  Basically, the Shia' leadership is trying to be wise and play both sides of the fence by placing their people in power, and still maintaining an Iraqi version of Hezbollah style militia via Al-Sadr's Mehdi militia keeping credibility in the streets.

Muqtada Al Sadr is going to renegotiate peace deals? Death Squad Al Sadr is gonna negotiate a peace deal , lol?

-That Al-Sadr death squad thing is blown out of proportion, it's US propaganda straight from CNN.  Read any of Sadr's interviews, he mentions often that he blames America for the bombings and killings and he does not blame the Sunni's.  Also, he sends out calls to all Muslims and Iraqi to oppose the occupation and calls for a full withdrawal of US troops.

Who is the Amir of the Sunni Ulama. You do realize that the Shura Council, is an umbrella group representing various Sunni groups.
Who is gonna lead them? Sunni tribes from Anbar? BUT THEY CURRENTLY TAKE PART IN THE GOVT. So i guess they;ll already have been uprooted. Al Qaeda in Iraq? Theyre gonna negotiate peace deals? Those fucks play a huge role in the disastrous turn of affairs in secreterian relations.

An Amir from the Sunni Ulama can not truly emerge at this time because obviously they are under siege at the moment from US occupation forces. 

If you want to talk about Al-Queda's supposed presence in Iraq; you should know that their supposed leader Usama's objectives have never been to battle Shia' and he has stated in interviews even prior to Sept. 11th that he felt that the big problem was American hegemony and American occupation of Muslim lands; and that that was to be dealt with first, and that once that was accomplished it would be easier to deal peacefully with what he considered lesser disputes such as Shia/Sunni disputes.

You see Infinite, I would love for what u suggest to occur But it is a dream, a fantasy and does not resemble the reality on the ground. We have to choose between the lesser of 2 evils, not blatantly denounce everyting in the hopes some miracolous Good will occur.

You've fallen victim to media propaganda.  You should get rid of the television in your house.  It was their objective always to dictate what the debate will be, and to offer two solutions, both of which will ultimately benefit them, and let the idiot public debate between the two solutions.  Don't be so silly as to fall for that.

 

-

first u say all iraqis who benefited from the govt should be uprooted, then you basically admit that shias have given their approval to this govt. Sadr, Sistani, Hakimi ALL support the govt. They may despise the occupation, but all of them ARE the govt. How are u going to uproot the Shia political institution?

Zarqawi called Shias Kuffar. Al Qaeda in Iraq is vehemently against the Shia. And the other Sunnis are too weak/marginalized to confront Al Qaeda and when they do, they do it with the tacit support of Americans.'

Sadr is at the very least turning a blind eye to the militias, that becames him complicit in their activities.

Heres the thing, the ONLY FORM OF CO OPERATION BETWEEN SHIAS AND SUNNIS OCCURS AT THE GOVT LEVEL WITH THE AMERICANS INVOLVED. THIS IS SAD BUT TRUE.

See, my thing is  you dont have anything to offer, any concrete realistic practical solution. you expect the americans to leave tomorrow, and everyone is going to squash their beefs.

[7even]

Those Iraqis aren't brought up like you Infinite. They aren't like you. Just because they're muslims doesn't mean they have your reasoning. Matter of fact those Americans there are much more like you than those Iraqis, even if you'd never be happy with that, it is what it is.

[Mr. O]

I ain't tryna offend iraqis, but fuck them.  Who's problem is it to deal with "civil war?" Iraqis.  US have no reason to occupy that place at all.  We just wasting troops like gas fuel.   If iraqis can't defend...well..they're fucked and that's the way it's gonna have to be unless they step.

[Lex Boooger]

2Pac will put an end to all wars.

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

Those Iraqis aren't brought up like you Infinite. They aren't like you. Just because they're muslims doesn't mean they have your reasoning. Matter of fact those Americans there are much more like you than those Iraqis, even if you'd never be happy with that, it is what it is.

And you know about the Iraqi's how?  By watching CNN?

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

first u say all iraqis who benefited from the govt should be uprooted, then you basically admit that shias have given their approval to this govt. Sadr, Sistani, Hakimi ALL support the govt. They may despise the occupation, but all of them ARE the govt. How are u going to uproot the Shia political institution?

Zarqawi called Shias Kuffar. Al Qaeda in Iraq is vehemently against the Shia. And the other Sunnis are too weak/marginalized to confront Al Qaeda and when they do, they do it with the tacit support of Americans.'

Sadr is at the very least turning a blind eye to the militias, that becames him complicit in their activities.

Heres the thing, the ONLY FORM OF CO OPERATION BETWEEN SHIAS AND SUNNIS OCCURS AT THE GOVT LEVEL WITH THE AMERICANS INVOLVED. THIS IS SAD BUT TRUE.

See, my thing is  you dont have anything to offer, any concrete realistic practical solution. you expect the americans to leave tomorrow, and everyone is going to squash their beefs.

Don't be a sell-out.

Look, Vietnam had a civil war of it's own.  Ho Chi Min's followers fought against Vietnamese who were benefiting from America's occupation.  After America left, things didn't get worse, they got better.  So what you are proposing is that the Iraqi's are somehow less human and less civilized than the Vietanamese.

[Ant]

The civil war was instigated by the good ol coalition because that is the perfect means of divide and rule they then pose as the saviours, as the people who need to stay to keep the sides apart. Meanwhile they keep exactly the same status quo in play as was witnessed under saddam hussein and plan to "partition" Iraq but it's all for the good of the people nothing to do with weakening the state. Lol these people have some nerve I will give them that very good at deceiving. The worse the situation becomes the better it is for the pentagon because it has made no secret of the fact that it wants to stimulate real terror http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/P2OG.pdf that is from the asian times in which the writer discusses P2OG a recently declassified document which discusses the need to stimulate real terror. 

You're an idiot. The U.S. has nothing to gain and everything to lose from the chaos in Iraq. We are losing soliders and billions of dollars everyday. A lot of politicians have already lost their jobs because voters are pissed off. So why would they want all the violence...to divide and conquer???

I agree with Real American for once.   At least in this regard.  How can you seriously be that caught up in this conspiracy theory nonsense to think there is some group pulling strings to incite violence in Iraq.

GWB would have loved to see Iraq go well.  Unlike Cwalker I'm not an apologist for America. He wants to blame the Iraqis, but you blame the party that instigates that action - not the party the action was taken against.  If we're such an amazing country, we should have known better, but we didn't.  Blaming Iraq is like a parent blaming their 3 yr old for not knowing how to behave properly yet.

But either way... virtuoso, people like you depress me.  It's sad to see people deform their mental state so horribly.  Get off the nonsense.  And stop lurking around these conspiracy nut web sites.  That's what's fuckin wit ur head... just like freerepublic.com be fuckin wit Real American. 

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

I agree with Real American for once.   At least in this regard.  How can you seriously be that caught up in this conspiracy theory nonsense to think there is some group pulling strings to incite violence in Iraq.

GWB would have loved to see Iraq go well.  Unlike Cwalker I'm not an apologist for America. He wants to blame the Iraqis, but you blame the party that instigates that action - not the party the action was taken against.  If we're such an amazing country, we should have known better, but we didn't.  Blaming Iraq is like a parent blaming their 3 yr old for not knowing how to behave properly yet.

But either way... virtuoso, people like you depress me.  It's sad to see people deform their mental state so horribly.  Get off the nonsense.  And stop lurking around these conspiracy nut web sites.  That's what's fuckin wit ur head... just like freerepublic.com be fuckin wit Real American. 

Ant, so are you saying that Bush just cared so much about the Iraqi people and loved them so much, and he thought that Sadaam Hussien was a bad man, and he wanted to help the poor Iraqi people, and all Bush wanted to do was just remove Sadaam from power and put in a great democratic government right away and then leave; all to help Iraq become a great, thriving nation that would one day compete with Isreal?

You really believe all that?  I know you don't believe that.  Look, none of the architects of this war wanted Iraq to be a success.  They wanted to weaken them permanently and usurp their resources for as long as possible.  That's the truth, but believe what you want.  I expected it from the Republicans, but I never would of thought Tech would do it.

Listen, this stuff was all planned well in advance.  You think these people don't plan these things?

[King Tech Quadafi]

first u say all iraqis who benefited from the govt should be uprooted, then you basically admit that shias have given their approval to this govt. Sadr, Sistani, Hakimi ALL support the govt. They may despise the occupation, but all of them ARE the govt. How are u going to uproot the Shia political institution?

Zarqawi called Shias Kuffar. Al Qaeda in Iraq is vehemently against the Shia. And the other Sunnis are too weak/marginalized to confront Al Qaeda and when they do, they do it with the tacit support of Americans.'

Sadr is at the very least turning a blind eye to the militias, that becames him complicit in their activities.

Heres the thing, the ONLY FORM OF CO OPERATION BETWEEN SHIAS AND SUNNIS OCCURS AT THE GOVT LEVEL WITH THE AMERICANS INVOLVED. THIS IS SAD BUT TRUE.

See, my thing is  you dont have anything to offer, any concrete realistic practical solution. you expect the americans to leave tomorrow, and everyone is going to squash their beefs.

Don't be a sell-out.

Look, Vietnam had a civil war of it's own.  Ho Chi Min's followers fought against Vietnamese who were benefiting from America's occupation.  After America left, things didn't get worse, they got better.  So what you are proposing is that the Iraqi's are somehow less human and less civilized than the Vietanamese.

there is no comparison between the nature of the civil war in vietnam and the civil war in iraq. stop making generalized statements. all youre offering is broad comparisons and vague unpractical answers. politics is a dirty game, and this is a dirty world. youre discussing politics through hope and ideology, instead of reason and logic.

i never said iraq should be turned over to the americans. what does the title of the thread say? "an immediate pull out of american troops will be disastrous" and it would be, i dont know how u cant see that. the conditions is not right for a withdrawal.