Author Topic: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"  (Read 904 times)

REGIME MOB 510

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2007, 06:57:46 PM »


st and foremost, i live in America, you have absolutely nothing to do with that, in fact, i'd probably fuck ur mom and ur sis, even if they were ugly just to get on ur nerves, cracker.  now, your culture and values, wut culture, hot dogs, hamburgers, and a 9 inning baseball game.  give me a fucking break.  if i feel a certain way abou tthat bitch, i have a "right" to feel that way.  let me put this in cracker terms, if a priest was fucking your son, wouldnt you want to voice your opinion to the church, and make sure it isnt just another "cover up"?  same philosophy follows for that somali bitch, she slandered my religion in a way that was unneccessacy, overly harsh, and absolutely false.  i have a right to be upset, and you have a right to shut the fuck up about shit you cant comprehend.  go read a book u ignorant piece of shit.

So now you are making racist comments about your own country the US and our culture? Wow. You really are a piece of shit.

Yet despite those remarks about America, as well as the comments about Catholicism and the direct attacks against my family, I sitll would never want to have you "gutted". Because here in America, we believe in freedom of speech. And you have the right to say whatever you want no matter how stupid it is.

I guess that does indeed make me better than you. God bless America.

LOL  you truly are ignorant, im gonna pray for you, who knows, maybe one day you'll turn into the new bryan.
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2007, 07:02:27 PM »


LOL  you truly are ignorant, im gonna pray for you, who knows, maybe one day you'll turn into the new bryan.

I honestly think you need to consider converting to Christianity. I think alot of your hate and anger would disappear and you would be alot happier.

Don't worry, unlike whatever Muslim country you came from, here in America if you convert from Islam you won't have your head chopped off. We believe in religious freedom.

God bless America.
 

REGIME MOB 510

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2007, 07:03:17 PM »


st and foremost, i live in America, you have absolutely nothing to do with that, in fact, i'd probably fuck ur mom and ur sis, even if they were ugly just to get on ur nerves, cracker.  now, your culture and values, wut culture, hot dogs, hamburgers, and a 9 inning baseball game.  give me a fucking break.  if i feel a certain way abou tthat bitch, i have a "right" to feel that way.  let me put this in cracker terms, if a priest was fucking your son, wouldnt you want to voice your opinion to the church, and make sure it isnt just another "cover up"?  same philosophy follows for that somali bitch, she slandered my religion in a way that was unneccessacy, overly harsh, and absolutely false.  i have a right to be upset, and you have a right to shut the fuck up about shit you cant comprehend.  go read a book u ignorant piece of shit.

So now you are making racist comments about your own country the US and our culture? Wow. You really are a piece of shit.

Yet despite those remarks about America, as well as the comments about Catholicism and the direct attacks against my family, I sitll would never want to have you "gutted". Because here in America, we believe in freedom of speech. And you have the right to say whatever you want no matter how stupid it is.

I guess that does indeed make me better than you. God bless America.

i gave an example using catholicism, and yes i did talk about fucking ur sis and mom, cuz hey, i look good, and them hoes would probably love the dick (no homo).  and thanks for not having me "gutted" but you act as if murder has never been committed between our borders, and freedom of speech is a myth.  wheres my freedom of speech, i just "said" the bitch should be gutted.  but to sum it up, your not better then me, you never will be, im smart, ive fucked more women then you, and i got more paper then you.  and yes, you do have a right to say its "stupid" or "idiotic" but those comments dont mean shit coming from a dumbass like yourself.
 

REGIME MOB 510

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2007, 07:04:41 PM »


LOL  you truly are ignorant, im gonna pray for you, who knows, maybe one day you'll turn into the new bryan.

I honestly think you need to consider converting to Christianity. I think alot of your hate and anger would disappear and you would be alot happier.

Don't worry, unlike whatever Muslim country you came from, here in America if you convert from Islam you won't have your head chopped off. We believe in religious freedom.

God bless America.
lol, are you one of those baptists that run around chanting shit like idiots?  cuz that isnt for me, i need discipline to continually make my life better.  YA DIG?
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2007, 06:12:46 AM »
st and foremost, i live in America, you have absolutely nothing to do with that, in fact, i'd probably fuck ur mom and ur sis, even if they were ugly just to get on ur nerves, cracker.  now, your culture and values, wut culture, hot dogs, hamburgers, and a 9 inning baseball game.  give me a fucking break.  if i feel a certain way abou tthat bitch, i have a "right" to feel that way.  let me put this in cracker terms, if a priest was fucking your son, wouldnt you want to voice your opinion to the church, and make sure it isnt just another "cover up"?  same philosophy follows for that somali bitch, she slandered my religion in a way that was unneccessacy, overly harsh, and absolutely false.  i have a right to be upset, and you have a right to shut the fuck up about shit you cant comprehend.  go read a book u ignorant piece of shit.

So now you are making racist comments about your own country the US and our culture? Wow. You really are a piece of shit.

Yet despite those remarks about America, as well as the comments about Catholicism and the direct attacks against my family, I sitll would never want to have you "gutted". Because here in America, we believe in freedom of speech. And you have the right to say whatever you want no matter how stupid it is.

I guess that does indeed make me better than you. God bless America.

Wow. You really do believe in America, don't you? What makes you even think there is such a thing as what you describe as "our American culture", something that needs blessing by your God and something that's undoubtedly better than any other "culture"?

Conceit, arrogance and egotism have been the essentials of patriotism since the beginning of time. In the words of Emma Goldman,
Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander and more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority on all the others.

...We Americans claim to be a peace-loving people. We hate bloodshed; we are opposed to violence. ...Yet our hearts swell with pride at the thought that America is becoming the most powerful nation on earth, and that it will eventually plant her iron foot on the necks of all other nations. Such is the logic of patriotism.
(From Emma Goldman - Patriotism: A Menace To Liberty)

Welcome to America, where you consider your own morals (freedom of speech!) so important they overshadow deviating morals of other people's cultures. What gives you the right to hate on people who look at life differently? Isn't that a part of THEIR freedom of speech as well? But to simply break down the islamic morals because some uncle feels the need to rape his neice and hide behind religion... Now that's really wrong.

I never felt sympathy for the killer of Theo van Gogh, nor do I understand his actions. Yet, the fact is that Van Gogh went way too far with his insultings. This has nothing to do with simply being critical, or using your freedom of speech to express a true feeling. Submission was unnecessarily provocrative and a worthless piece of propaganda against those with different beliefs.
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2007, 06:26:03 AM »
heres an interview with ayaan hirsi ali

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2007, 06:37:00 AM »
damn, didnt think i'd ever agree with you on anything i to da geezy.  but very well said, you gotta defend your rightous beliefs.  i guess thats why muslims and jews are at war till this day, we both feel we're right in the stance we adopted.

See man I don't really think there is a reason why rational people shouldn't get along. When you meet a person whose judgement seems to you clouded by irrationality you shouldn't hate that person nor should u antagonize that person.Even when that person seems to you downright dumb. These are people who need help. I don't think I got the help I needed when I was driven by dogmatic thought.

The Jews and the Muslims in support of this conflict r driven either by religious beliefs and/or by blind patriotism. If people started treating each other like people and not like categories we could resolve things. I really love the marxist critique of Nationalism (Though I am not a full-fledged Marxist) that points out how nationalism is an elite\leadership manufactured form of indoctrination that aims at subjugation of the general population for its purposes. FUCK determining political goals based on primordial-ethnic-national belonging....Let's all choose for ourselves, Let's use our own brains!!! Give yourselves some credit yall!
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2007, 06:59:03 AM »
i dont think this movie is propaganda. it doesnt say all muslim women are victims of sexual abuse by their husbands or uncles or whatever, it doesnt say muslims are initially bad people. the girl that is standing there is a muslim woman herself, and ayaan hirsi ali is a muslim too, btw.
it is no secret that in catholicism for example there are often cases of sexual abuse by priests, there were many cruel things in the history done in the name of christianity.
it doesnt mean islam is something bad. in my oppinion it just shows that islam isnt flawless (just as any other religion). there are also movies which are critical about fundamentalistic christianity and i dont think it is necessarely bad, though im a baptized orthodox christian.
why did van gogh have to be killed in such a way? why should a muslim be so aggravated by that movie if he doesnt live his beliefs in a morally correct way and is not guilty of any crimes? i think that every halfway intellignet and normal person understands that this movie wasnt meant to say: "islam is bad, die, muslim people!" it is only there to show that it is not flawless like bryan or other muslims on this board sometimes claim. we all are people and in every religion and nationality and other groups you can find good people and less good people. any other statements are plain generalizations
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 07:02:10 AM by *Z* »
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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2007, 08:36:28 AM »
Let me get one thing straight first. I am not a muslim, nor a christian. I'm not really an atheist either; I guess taoism comes closest. But that doesn't mean I can't defend the muslim point of view here, when I feel like they have the right to feel attacked here. The murder on Theo van Gogh is as wrong as it gets, but the muslims had a right to feel insulted here.

What you see in the movie isn't really Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali trying to depict the flaws of the Qu'Ran. They were not just shining a light on a thoughtful matter, although indeed it is a terrible thing to do for that uncle to hide behind his muslim principles to justify his lust and abuse. The exact problem with the movie is that it seemingly tries to give the viewer an impression as if that's what the islam stands for. That's where I say this movie becomes a disgrace. The issues seem to be brought up not to activate a thought process, but to do the exact opposite: to do the thinking for you, in a biased and unfair way. Propaganda, because the script is too limited and biased to give a truthful impression.
 

I TO DA GEEZY

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2007, 08:53:20 AM »
The exact problem with the movie is that it seemingly tries to give the viewer an impression as if that's what the islam stands for.

The viewer is being presented with a tragedy many women in traditional Muslim society r forced to face. If in your opinion there's something more important than this you have to get your moral priorities straight.   
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2007, 09:10:21 AM »

Wtf how can you embrace the communist manifesto have you read it properly? the reason for attacking the middle class is to ensure complete dependency and so an all powerful world government can be formed, after all they do not believe in nationality or nations borders. Clearly you fail to recognise the danger of such mass centralised control. Furthermore they make it clear that they despises the family unit, the family must be broken so values are not instilled by the parents but by the controllers, through "reeducation centres" it's a sickening read.

The analogy is don't drink that poison anymore, here have a lovely cup of cyanide instead
 

I TO DA GEEZY

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2007, 09:39:56 AM »
Keep your panties on dude. Embracing one element of the manifesto doesn't make me a communist, just like I said before. I know you also embrace elements of it. Don't you like the idea of socialist democracy? Do you fail to see the connection between the two?- I doubt it. Notwithstanding, awareness of the hazards of National perception is not to be taken lightly. There is no doubt it's a powerful tool of psychological control in the hands of those in power.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 09:43:03 AM by I TO DA GEEZY »
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virtuoso

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2007, 09:57:20 AM »

No no, people confuse criticism of the states actions with nationalism that is where the problem lies. They associate the actions of the government as being as one with the nation so they feel that criticises it amounts to being unpatriotic. Whereas that is not what real patriotism is about, real patriotism is understanding what makes the country what it is, in terms of it's consitution the rule of law etc. If you were to focus attention on individual socialist policies then you could say 'well that seems reasonable" however when they are presented together as one package, it's apparent how dangerous these policies are.I did pull the trigger before you elaborated though so my bad, it's just....from reading that document....it is a very chilling document and the thought of anyone truly embracing the main aims of it just turn my stomach.

Going back to this movie by the way, it all comes down to double standards, do you think they would have allowed a movie depicting a jewish family who violently refuse to allow their son or daughter to marry a palestinian? I would say odds on the ADL would step in and scream from the roofops "evil jew haters" and the film would get pulled before it was ever able to be released anywhere within europe.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 10:12:49 AM by virtuoso »
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2007, 10:20:23 AM »
1.I too focus on individual socialist policies 2. State actions in modern democracies, more overtly those involving immorality of some sort, always rely on the intricate aspects of National perception for the purpose of garnering sympathy and reaching public consensus of some sort. "It is within our 'National Interest'"
" The people of .... are tired of...." the language is always emotional, romantic, exaggerated, filled with generalization, and at the core irrational. Just listen to the politicians on TV. There is nothing that obstructs state actions from being immoral, including the constitution and the rule of law, as you know (See US) .Hence, patriotism, even of this seemingly benign nature u've described, leads to rationalization of state actions. When it comes down to business all that matters is how many blind patriots u have supporting a morally reprehensible state action.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 10:23:16 AM by I TO DA GEEZY »
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virtuoso

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2007, 10:26:16 AM »

The american government is acting outside of the constituion but a great deal of lawlessness has swept into the highest throes of power. The actions themselves are treasonous but if no one is prepared to enforce then a country gets swept into great danger. It is not patriotism that is dangerous, it is ignorance and apathy, people fall into the trap of just trusting authority without knowing what it is they are actually trusting. By the way I would like you to respond to the question I asked.
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2007, 10:44:51 AM »
Does your definition of patriotism infer the placement of the state at the rank of a top priority in the life of a citizen?

To answer your question I'm not fully certain who 'they' are. If by 'they' you mean the ADL you would have to ask them what they would do cause I'm not a member. Personally I think a movie about a Jew\Palestinian relationship wouldn't cause that much wave. Now something more analogical to what we saw in this film would most definitely cause similar reaction especially had it involved Orthodox Jews.The national-religious identity of the maker of the film would also be in play I believe.
 
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2007, 11:05:41 AM »
I am not quite sure how I am supposed to answer that question, belonging to a state is more benevolent then this idea of a world government. Now of course you can cite examples where a state is truly oppressive but the western world has enjoyed freedoms, mainly because the people were willing to stand up and contest. The protection of the state from corrupt politicians who would sell a country down the river are greatly enhanced when the populous is informed, if people recognise where true dangers lie then they would not rest on their laurels. The greatest threat to England comes form the European Union, which is just another arm of the globalists, I have read that it was the trilateral commission who created the European Union but I am digressing. To answer your point people should always be aware and be aware by the acquisition of knowledge, as things currently stand in England, when you ask most people under the age of 30 what the europen union is they can only offer a shrug of the shoulders or a "oh it doesn't affect me".

As far as me using the term they, I meant there would be a concerted effort by politicians the ADL and the media, to demonise the creator of such a fim. Whereas when the muslims get angered by films depicting them in an extremely negative light, they are labelled the extremists for being fuelled with rage. Like I said, the ADL would be up in arms and as they clearly have so much influence unfortunately their voices would be heard loud and clear. It is ironic that it is somehow "crazy" for muslims to talk about people like theo van gogh as an evil unbeliever and yet whenever even faint criticism of Israel is heard it seems a legitimate course of action for the ADL to class the person as an evil jew hater, who evokes in their minds memories of the nazis.

I am not making apologies for the piece of shit that killed him by the way, whoever that was, I am merely saying that there is a great injustice being exercised everytime these double standards are deemed to be acceptable. It is this these double standards which actually fuel extremism because it sends out a clear message to the muslims that they are viewed as being lesser people than others.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 11:27:09 AM by virtuoso »
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2007, 11:15:27 AM »
Dude wanted a reaction so he got one  :)
"One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" was his response. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2007, 11:25:35 AM »
See the problem here is that when you choose to place your belonging to a state at a top priority you automatically reduce other values making them ancillary. Hence, if something is percieved as threatening to the state you will tend to respond almost automatically with intrinsic hostility. That is because a patriot views himself as an organic part of the Nation as well as of its political manifestation- the state. Such values as humanity, compassion etc become secondary and apply only particularly, as opposed to universally.



As for the second point yeah the ADL is pretty ardent in its efforts so I believe it's possible.
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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2007, 11:31:27 AM »

There is nothing "perceived" about the european union, they are sweeping away the nations powers thus transferring power to a centralised base. Therefore this continual draining away of sovereignty, leaves nations at the mercy of a truly powerful non elected entity. It is surely common sense to recognise the dangers from that. Everytime a new base of power is formed, far from increasing the cheques and balances it dilutes existing protections. Therefore being nationalistic is as much about wanting to preserve protection than it is having "love" for a country.
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2007, 11:42:49 AM »
So you're saying the European union, in a way, poses a threat to the formal democracy upheld in the states included in it?
The worst case scenario would then be complete merging right? But had this transpired wouldn't it be possible to enforce the same formal democracy all throughout the newly established sovereignty?
I still don't see how this isn't valid, at least on the theoretical level.
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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2007, 01:08:07 PM »
Yes it has effectively transformed itself into a superstate, to illustrate how much power it now holds 70% of the laws which govern this country are now decided upon within the union and are then imposed on this country. Most of the political debates within parliament are effectively a show because they do not have the power to repeal the laws. Democracy can not be run in the same way as it can at a national level because no one nation is able to effect change once it becomes a member of the union. The 3 main political parties in this country play a game of semantical football but none of them want to leave the union. This set the stage for the creation of UKIP to enter into brussels, basically their soul intention is to leave the union. As change can not be effected nationally it means that in effect on a lot of issues the politicians here are simply token spokespeople. Not only has this country being sold up the river but mass amounts of the tax payers wealth has also been surrendered to the union, it is something in the region of 50 billion which is being paid to the union every year. Every year there is calls for more "harmonisation" of laws and we have even had "debates" in this country asking are we european or are british? On a certain level there is a deep disquiet here but for most people in this country they are completely oblivious to what is happening. This socialistic system of control is just expanding and expanding by a combination of power mad individuals and of course well meaning people.

The people that run the european union were elected by their fellow peers, that is those in the most prominent positions of power. There are MEPS (ministry european politicians but their main concern is acting in the interests of "Europe". What is even more disturbing about the european union though, is as I mentioned previously, the trilateral commission created this european governership. When people talk about a world government they don't understand it's basic structure. Simply because of geopolitical reasons, culture language and locational barriers, the world is carved into 3 main entities; The European Union, The North American Union and the Asian Union. This is why i am completely dumbfounded when someone declares that they are a communist or a world socialist. In a utopian society perhaps a "one world" state might not pose incredible dangers to citizens but society in general has verged towards almost the opposite extreme of utopia.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 01:16:20 PM by virtuoso »
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2007, 01:27:22 PM »
So wouldn't you say the real problem is the execution, the bringing about, of this merging, particularly how it's done in terms of the European Union? I doubt it there is a conceptual problem with the mere idea of International merging. It's just that the example we have here is rotten.
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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2007, 01:46:55 PM »

I don't have a problem with co-operation between states and trading ties however when the union becomes indistinguishable form the state then it becomes a big big problem. It was the underhand way in which it was created to the british public were basically deceived into believing the notion that the european union would amount to nothing more than a "free trading block" however it's been a game of chess, the pieces have been moved very very slowly. It is always the same though any time in which a new entity is being created, the drawbridge is lowered the moat is drained and the peoples inside are the ones who are exposed to the dangers. Did you know that as opposed to the american and english constitution which guarantees the rights of the individual because they are the inaliable rights of the individual the european charter of human rights states that human rights are a privilege which can be revoked. It's just beyond bewildering how all of this has been allowed to transpire.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 01:54:00 PM by virtuoso »
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2007, 02:08:51 PM »
Well screw the European union for tarnishing the idea of internationalism. Nevertheless, I view exclusive paradigms, such as Nationalism, as a problem on the perceptional level as well as on the philosophical level. The mere essence of it reeks of schisms between groups of people on dogmatic grounds.
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?