Author Topic: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"  (Read 1587 times)

*Z* - The Queen of Dubcc

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2007, 05:26:03 AM »
heres an interview with ayaan hirsi ali

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I TO DA GEEZY

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2007, 05:37:00 AM »
damn, didnt think i'd ever agree with you on anything i to da geezy.  but very well said, you gotta defend your rightous beliefs.  i guess thats why muslims and jews are at war till this day, we both feel we're right in the stance we adopted.

See man I don't really think there is a reason why rational people shouldn't get along. When you meet a person whose judgement seems to you clouded by irrationality you shouldn't hate that person nor should u antagonize that person.Even when that person seems to you downright dumb. These are people who need help. I don't think I got the help I needed when I was driven by dogmatic thought.

The Jews and the Muslims in support of this conflict r driven either by religious beliefs and/or by blind patriotism. If people started treating each other like people and not like categories we could resolve things. I really love the marxist critique of Nationalism (Though I am not a full-fledged Marxist) that points out how nationalism is an elite\leadership manufactured form of indoctrination that aims at subjugation of the general population for its purposes. FUCK determining political goals based on primordial-ethnic-national belonging....Let's all choose for ourselves, Let's use our own brains!!! Give yourselves some credit yall!
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*Z* - The Queen of Dubcc

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2007, 05:59:03 AM »
i dont think this movie is propaganda. it doesnt say all muslim women are victims of sexual abuse by their husbands or uncles or whatever, it doesnt say muslims are initially bad people. the girl that is standing there is a muslim woman herself, and ayaan hirsi ali is a muslim too, btw.
it is no secret that in catholicism for example there are often cases of sexual abuse by priests, there were many cruel things in the history done in the name of christianity.
it doesnt mean islam is something bad. in my oppinion it just shows that islam isnt flawless (just as any other religion). there are also movies which are critical about fundamentalistic christianity and i dont think it is necessarely bad, though im a baptized orthodox christian.
why did van gogh have to be killed in such a way? why should a muslim be so aggravated by that movie if he doesnt live his beliefs in a morally correct way and is not guilty of any crimes? i think that every halfway intellignet and normal person understands that this movie wasnt meant to say: "islam is bad, die, muslim people!" it is only there to show that it is not flawless like bryan or other muslims on this board sometimes claim. we all are people and in every religion and nationality and other groups you can find good people and less good people. any other statements are plain generalizations
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 06:02:10 AM by *Z* »
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Elevz

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2007, 07:36:28 AM »
Let me get one thing straight first. I am not a muslim, nor a christian. I'm not really an atheist either; I guess taoism comes closest. But that doesn't mean I can't defend the muslim point of view here, when I feel like they have the right to feel attacked here. The murder on Theo van Gogh is as wrong as it gets, but the muslims had a right to feel insulted here.

What you see in the movie isn't really Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali trying to depict the flaws of the Qu'Ran. They were not just shining a light on a thoughtful matter, although indeed it is a terrible thing to do for that uncle to hide behind his muslim principles to justify his lust and abuse. The exact problem with the movie is that it seemingly tries to give the viewer an impression as if that's what the islam stands for. That's where I say this movie becomes a disgrace. The issues seem to be brought up not to activate a thought process, but to do the exact opposite: to do the thinking for you, in a biased and unfair way. Propaganda, because the script is too limited and biased to give a truthful impression.
 

I TO DA GEEZY

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2007, 07:53:20 AM »
The exact problem with the movie is that it seemingly tries to give the viewer an impression as if that's what the islam stands for.

The viewer is being presented with a tragedy many women in traditional Muslim society r forced to face. If in your opinion there's something more important than this you have to get your moral priorities straight.   
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

virtuoso

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2007, 08:10:21 AM »

Wtf how can you embrace the communist manifesto have you read it properly? the reason for attacking the middle class is to ensure complete dependency and so an all powerful world government can be formed, after all they do not believe in nationality or nations borders. Clearly you fail to recognise the danger of such mass centralised control. Furthermore they make it clear that they despises the family unit, the family must be broken so values are not instilled by the parents but by the controllers, through "reeducation centres" it's a sickening read.

The analogy is don't drink that poison anymore, here have a lovely cup of cyanide instead
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2007, 08:39:56 AM »
Keep your panties on dude. Embracing one element of the manifesto doesn't make me a communist, just like I said before. I know you also embrace elements of it. Don't you like the idea of socialist democracy? Do you fail to see the connection between the two?- I doubt it. Notwithstanding, awareness of the hazards of National perception is not to be taken lightly. There is no doubt it's a powerful tool of psychological control in the hands of those in power.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 08:43:03 AM by I TO DA GEEZY »
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virtuoso

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2007, 08:57:20 AM »

No no, people confuse criticism of the states actions with nationalism that is where the problem lies. They associate the actions of the government as being as one with the nation so they feel that criticises it amounts to being unpatriotic. Whereas that is not what real patriotism is about, real patriotism is understanding what makes the country what it is, in terms of it's consitution the rule of law etc. If you were to focus attention on individual socialist policies then you could say 'well that seems reasonable" however when they are presented together as one package, it's apparent how dangerous these policies are.I did pull the trigger before you elaborated though so my bad, it's just....from reading that document....it is a very chilling document and the thought of anyone truly embracing the main aims of it just turn my stomach.

Going back to this movie by the way, it all comes down to double standards, do you think they would have allowed a movie depicting a jewish family who violently refuse to allow their son or daughter to marry a palestinian? I would say odds on the ADL would step in and scream from the roofops "evil jew haters" and the film would get pulled before it was ever able to be released anywhere within europe.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 09:12:49 AM by virtuoso »
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2007, 09:20:23 AM »
1.I too focus on individual socialist policies 2. State actions in modern democracies, more overtly those involving immorality of some sort, always rely on the intricate aspects of National perception for the purpose of garnering sympathy and reaching public consensus of some sort. "It is within our 'National Interest'"
" The people of .... are tired of...." the language is always emotional, romantic, exaggerated, filled with generalization, and at the core irrational. Just listen to the politicians on TV. There is nothing that obstructs state actions from being immoral, including the constitution and the rule of law, as you know (See US) .Hence, patriotism, even of this seemingly benign nature u've described, leads to rationalization of state actions. When it comes down to business all that matters is how many blind patriots u have supporting a morally reprehensible state action.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 09:23:16 AM by I TO DA GEEZY »
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virtuoso

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2007, 09:26:16 AM »

The american government is acting outside of the constituion but a great deal of lawlessness has swept into the highest throes of power. The actions themselves are treasonous but if no one is prepared to enforce then a country gets swept into great danger. It is not patriotism that is dangerous, it is ignorance and apathy, people fall into the trap of just trusting authority without knowing what it is they are actually trusting. By the way I would like you to respond to the question I asked.
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2007, 09:44:51 AM »
Does your definition of patriotism infer the placement of the state at the rank of a top priority in the life of a citizen?

To answer your question I'm not fully certain who 'they' are. If by 'they' you mean the ADL you would have to ask them what they would do cause I'm not a member. Personally I think a movie about a Jew\Palestinian relationship wouldn't cause that much wave. Now something more analogical to what we saw in this film would most definitely cause similar reaction especially had it involved Orthodox Jews.The national-religious identity of the maker of the film would also be in play I believe.
 
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virtuoso

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2007, 10:05:41 AM »
I am not quite sure how I am supposed to answer that question, belonging to a state is more benevolent then this idea of a world government. Now of course you can cite examples where a state is truly oppressive but the western world has enjoyed freedoms, mainly because the people were willing to stand up and contest. The protection of the state from corrupt politicians who would sell a country down the river are greatly enhanced when the populous is informed, if people recognise where true dangers lie then they would not rest on their laurels. The greatest threat to England comes form the European Union, which is just another arm of the globalists, I have read that it was the trilateral commission who created the European Union but I am digressing. To answer your point people should always be aware and be aware by the acquisition of knowledge, as things currently stand in England, when you ask most people under the age of 30 what the europen union is they can only offer a shrug of the shoulders or a "oh it doesn't affect me".

As far as me using the term they, I meant there would be a concerted effort by politicians the ADL and the media, to demonise the creator of such a fim. Whereas when the muslims get angered by films depicting them in an extremely negative light, they are labelled the extremists for being fuelled with rage. Like I said, the ADL would be up in arms and as they clearly have so much influence unfortunately their voices would be heard loud and clear. It is ironic that it is somehow "crazy" for muslims to talk about people like theo van gogh as an evil unbeliever and yet whenever even faint criticism of Israel is heard it seems a legitimate course of action for the ADL to class the person as an evil jew hater, who evokes in their minds memories of the nazis.

I am not making apologies for the piece of shit that killed him by the way, whoever that was, I am merely saying that there is a great injustice being exercised everytime these double standards are deemed to be acceptable. It is this these double standards which actually fuel extremism because it sends out a clear message to the muslims that they are viewed as being lesser people than others.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 10:27:09 AM by virtuoso »
 

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2007, 10:15:27 AM »
Dude wanted a reaction so he got one  :)
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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2007, 10:25:35 AM »
See the problem here is that when you choose to place your belonging to a state at a top priority you automatically reduce other values making them ancillary. Hence, if something is percieved as threatening to the state you will tend to respond almost automatically with intrinsic hostility. That is because a patriot views himself as an organic part of the Nation as well as of its political manifestation- the state. Such values as humanity, compassion etc become secondary and apply only particularly, as opposed to universally.



As for the second point yeah the ADL is pretty ardent in its efforts so I believe it's possible.
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virtuoso

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Re: A movie by Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali - "Submission"
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2007, 10:31:27 AM »

There is nothing "perceived" about the european union, they are sweeping away the nations powers thus transferring power to a centralised base. Therefore this continual draining away of sovereignty, leaves nations at the mercy of a truly powerful non elected entity. It is surely common sense to recognise the dangers from that. Everytime a new base of power is formed, far from increasing the cheques and balances it dilutes existing protections. Therefore being nationalistic is as much about wanting to preserve protection than it is having "love" for a country.