Chris Cornell leaves Audioslave

[jeromechickenbone]

Anybody that really respects music can respect music of many genres.  How anyone can say "Rock Sucks" or "Hip Hop Sucks" is crazy to me.  I mean, I don't listen to Opera music.  Nobody I know does.  I've never been to an Opera - it's not something that I can relate to at all.  But I can absolutely respect the vocalists and the story telling aspect of it.  And I can understand that some people out there love it.  I can still acknowledge the artistic aspect of it even if it's not my favorite.

[Tanjential]

shallow, +1. best posts I've seen in this board damn near ever. guerilla-from-the-mist, rap is not the only real music. Bob Dylan in the 60's was at least as political as PE. he marched with dr.king, sang songs at the same rally he delivered I have a dream at. Dylan played his songs all over the country for poor blacks and rich politicians...dude did all you could politically as an artist, and really did as much for blacks as an artist could...you know alot about hip hop but it undermines your otherwise intelligent presentation of self to say there's nothing valuable or real about rock. there's no need for shallow to leave the forum. but your Politically correct reverse racism is most unwelcome.



 jrome, white boy= also, plus one.


and lyrical g, even if he was just talking about eminem when he talked about rap who can blame him? until encore eminem was the most original, unpretentious, funny and unique rapper I've ever come across. I still don't see why you dislike him so much. eminem is devastatingly overwhelmingly talented.

-T

[white Boy]

rock isnt white boy music, it stems directly from blues and jazz which is like all blacks, rock is actually a very "black" art form, i mean the greatest guitarist of all time (imo) is black. also in the 60s blacks and whites (revolutionaries or hippies) stood together to fight for freedom. i mean take two of the biggest concerts woodstock and monterery pop festival, which were rock concerts, and both had a wide variety of races including many blacks.

[Shallow]

you see you speaking some major bullshit there.....you saying all nas shit is garbageis like me saying all rock shit is bullshit white boy music that don't sound good....its wrong....nas is art whether you like it or not....fact is most people cannot do what nas can and same i am sure with what some of these rock cats are doing who are the better ones.....nas speaks on alot of shit, is hella relavant and poetic and portrays his shit in art....there aint no denying this.....i use to get the feeling that you are some pro white/anti black music cat who only likes eminem in hiphop...infact im sure no matter what you say about nas.....eminem is someone you like alot no matter what you will say....its evident by alot of posts you have spoken on eminem in the past....but no i will not be bringing them back up............

now nas is a great and his shit is art...and yes he has some steriotype shit going for him but he goes against the grain with alot of shit aswell....and im sure that alot of these rock cats who are considered great fit many rock steriotypes aswell but they have something which stands out form the rest....you coming in here speaking like hiphop aint shit....dissin nas yet keep a blind eye on other shit is funny....like other dude said, this is a hiphop forum,  why watse your time here if this place aint for you....and i know you aint a cat to come infest every topic with bullshit but you speaking right now, dissing one of hiphops finest probably mad cuz he dissed some white people.......

truth is music is music and art is art....nas is both....because he is a great....hiphop may be weak right now but its still got its gems

peace

I never meant to imply that Nas is not art (me drawing stick figures is art, it's just not good art). I meant Nas is not that good in the grand scheme of things. This is my opinion and I'm sticking to it. He's no worse than Eminem and I think a little better. My favourite rapper is Tupac and my favourite rap group is P.E., so I don't know how I could be pro a white/anti black music fan.

I just happen to think Nas is a pretentious idiot who speaks foolishly about many topics, sacrifices the poetry and the meaning of a song with using too many words to finish a rhyme, is too often driven by ego and forced to promote himself in his art too much, and has to dumb down his words because he thinks people won't understand him unless he's very literal.

I think he's a great rhymer with a lot of talent and skill. I think he flows great, and I know I can't do that like he does but I can't sing like Celine Dion either, that doesn't mean I like the songs she sings or how she sings them. I don't hate all of Nas's songs; 2nd Childhood and Dance are great in my opinion. Even most of the songs that I think aren't that good I usually find entertaining. But being entertaining and being very good or great don't go hand in and with me. I'm a huge fan of Chuck Norris and Steven Seagal films and I praise them all the time but if someone seriously told me they a great artistic films I'd laugh. I think Tim Burton can direct some great visuals but I find very few of his films to be any good. I enjoy watching scenes from Batman but I don't think the film is very good.

In my opinion, it is an extremely narcistic attitude and a very, very pretentious base for a statement to argue that something has greater calibre of art and is objectively of higher value when it comes to music. I, actually, feel like slapping such people.

Art is the outcome of a creative process. There's no hierarchy of value implied in it.

Music is as good as it is in reaching what it's supposed to be. Like, a song that is meant to be political, and fails miserably at it, sucks. A song that is supposed to make people laugh, but fails miserably at it, sucks. Yet, neither does a song have to make people laugh nor does it have to be political. Some people prefer funny songs, some political. That is completely subjective.

Ultimately, you can not call a song that excels in featuring great battle rhymes worse than a song that excels in touching people on an emotional level - because both songs are good at what they are supposed to be good at.


I also pity anyone who thinks he can be completely objective towards the whole wide spectre of music, let alone art.

You feel this way about only music? What about films? Is King of New York as high a calibre film as Goodfellas or Godfather? Or is it the same because they're both art? If one thing is better than another doesn't that make it higher art than the other?

[7even]

Godfather can be considered better than King of New York because they aren't completely different genres or so I assume (haven't seen the latter).
But, for instance I don't know why exactly, but many people consider Dumb and Dumber a very, very hilarious movie. So it's just as good in filling its purpose.
Of course, Godfather can still be considered more "arty" for obvious reasons, as a movie like this naturally comes along in a more artful manner.
For movies it is a little different though. As they are more similiar even within different genres than music. Music can be something that completely differs from each other, also, people have different ears for it. Like, for instance, my homies who don't really listen to rap, can't grasp what I find so great about a certain flow or delivery. To them it's all the same, the beat if pretty much everything. They don't have that rap-loving ear that I have. I on the other hand don't have a ear for hardcore heavy metal. To me it's just annoying noise. But I would never go as far as saying Hiphop is superior art compared to that.

[Shallow]

Godfather can be considered better than King of New York because they aren't completely different genres or so I assume (haven't seen the latter).
But, for instance I don't know why exactly, but many people consider Dumb and Dumber a very, very hilarious movie. So it's just as good in filling its purpose.
Of course, Godfather can still be considered more "arty" for obvious reasons, as a movie like this naturally comes along in a more artful manner.
For movies it is a little different though. As they are more similiar even within different genres than music. Music can be something that completely differs from each other, also, people have different ears for it. Like, for instance, my homies who don't really listen to rap, can't grasp what I find so great about a certain flow or delivery. To them it's all the same, the beat if pretty much everything. They don't have that rap-loving ear that I have. I on the other hand don't have a ear for hardcore heavy metal. To me it's just annoying noise. But I would never go as far as saying Hiphop is superior art compared to that.

I wasn't generalizing hip hop, and I wasn't judging it as an outsider. A great portion of my cd colection is still hip hop. I'm not judging the musical side of hip hop either. We were talking about lyrics, and in that case I don't see how you cannot compare Nas and Dylan. If people think Nas is better then that's fine. To each his own. I explained why I dislike much of the lyricism in hip hop. I called it less of an art because of the presentation. Could I be wrong? Sure. But it will always sound silly to me when an artist promotes himself the person in a serious song. If it's comedy then it's fine, but I can't imagine Scorsese placing shots of himself accomplishing something inbetween shots of a film like Raging Bull, or Marlon Brando setting up his scenes in Streetcar with "aaahhhhhhhhhhhhh yeeeeeeeeeaaaahhhhhh, Here's big Mar with some mo' fiyahh fo dat ass. Stellaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!". It would just be too hard for me to take it seriously. It detracts from the art and focuses on the promotion. Imagine a film like Mystic River spending 5 minutes on a scene between characters talking about how great of a director Clint Eastwood while in character during the film, just because Clint was directing and wanted to let people know he's the man. That's how feel when I hear a lopt of rappers.

I also hate it when they defend their content by using violent films as an example but never come out an say "we are playing characters". They insist on it being a reality far too often. I also hate little stupid similes that pop in to finish rhymes but take away from the tone. Like Cormega's Fallen Soldiers. A great song with a great tone but a stupid simile that always throws me off:

What, I'ma live for my niggas
I'ma shine for my niggas
How can I express the sorrow, I learn to dread tomorrow
Had to see my nigga Yammy dead, but he can rest with honor
Cuz he was reppin on his quest for dollars
I was the one who took him Uptown, with someone into measure powder
I treasure our memories together, hard to believe
I'ma never see you again, but I'ma make you breathin thru pen
So everyone can see you my friend, in fly sneakers again
Life is sweet and kinda deep when it ends
Still remember you, beefin over bullshit calls at basketball games cheatin
Yo, my cipher ain't complete, I'm sorry for that argument we had
On twelth street over a sale, knowing well that you was seekin dough aswell
What we made up the same night
And thru the years remained tight, the same love
The same drugs rockin the same Nikes
Now that you gone, I'm here to reppin your name right, yo
Chorus [Cormega]
Did you ever lose a nigga you love?
Then ask yourself is there a heaven for thugs?
And will you be forgiven when your spirit is judged
This song is dedicated to my niggas above
Did you ever lose a nigga you love?
Then ask yourself is there a heaven for thugs?
And will you be forgiven when your spirit is judged
This song is dedicated to my niggas above
[Cormega]
And to my cousin Bam
You my fuckin man, I find it hard to understand
You gone, you physical form is dormant
I'm lost like the Bulls without Jordan
Tell my man J.B. from Edgemere I said peace
Son, I live a thug life, I clutch mics
With the same intensity that I used to crush white
G-Fresh was at your funeral, son I felt it
And if I start cryin when I rhyme I can't help it
Analyze, never think I forgot you, you my heart
And even death can't keep the two of us apart
From day one, watchin cartoons and shootin playguns
Who ever thought we see this day come
Tell my moms I miss her, give her a kiss and tell her
That her younger child done her proud
I know she heard about me runnin wild
Ya'll gone now, but livin in my memory
Fallen soldiers, sleepin in serenity


P.S. King of NY and Godfather are both mob films which is why I mentioned them. And I think opinions can be stronger than others if you know enough of the medium. People that would call Dumb and Dumber a better film than Godfather are like people that would call DaVinci Code a better book than War and Piece, while experts in either genre (for the record I am not an expert) who study film and literature will laugh and tell you exactly why both GF and W&P are superior. I know philosophically you can argue the merit of opinion, but you can philosophically argue gravity and the theories behind it. If you have no evidence to explain why the current theory is dead wrong then you can't simply say "well you can't 100% prove it and I disagree. I think we stay grounded on the earth because God wants us to, and that's that". But you can very well believe that just like you can believe a crayon coloured portrait of a stick figure is better than the Mona Lisa, but no one will take you seriously, and for good reason.

[Tanjential]

 wasn't generalizing hip hop, and I wasn't judging it as an outsider. A great portion of my cd colection is still hip hop. I'm not judging the musical side of hip hop either. We were talking about lyrics, and in that case I don't see how you cannot compare Nas and Dylan. If people think Nas is better then that's fine. To each his own. I explained why I dislike much of the lyricism in hip hop. I called it less of an art because of the presentation. Could I be wrong? Sure. But it will always sound silly to me when an artist promotes himself the person in a serious song. If it's comedy then it's fine, but I can't imagine Scorsese placing shots of himself accomplishing something inbetween shots of a film like Raging Bull, or Marlon Brando setting up his scenes in Streetcar with "aaahhhhhhhhhhhhh yeeeeeeeeeaaaahhhhhh, Here's big Mar with some mo' fiyahh fo dat ass. Stellaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!". It would just be too hard for me to take it seriously. It detracts from the art and focuses on the promotion. Imagine a film like Mystic River spending 5 minutes on a scene between characters talking about how great of a director Clint Eastwood while in character during the film, just because Clint was directing and wanted to let people know he's the man. That's how feel when I hear a lopt of rappers. -Shallow

FANTASTIC POINT, I've often felt the same way about alot of rap for years. That's kinda why I like game though, he does it to the point of self satire. like he's aware of the ridiculous aspects of hip hop and uses them to a sarcastic but still artistic extent...he's like a personification of everything wrong and right in the hip hop game(street enough to get street cred but too street to avoid beef dig?). just a thought. either way, shallow, great post. I hope to see you around more. +1

-T

-T

[Shallow]

wasn't generalizing hip hop, and I wasn't judging it as an outsider. A great portion of my cd colection is still hip hop. I'm not judging the musical side of hip hop either. We were talking about lyrics, and in that case I don't see how you cannot compare Nas and Dylan. If people think Nas is better then that's fine. To each his own. I explained why I dislike much of the lyricism in hip hop. I called it less of an art because of the presentation. Could I be wrong? Sure. But it will always sound silly to me when an artist promotes himself the person in a serious song. If it's comedy then it's fine, but I can't imagine Scorsese placing shots of himself accomplishing something inbetween shots of a film like Raging Bull, or Marlon Brando setting up his scenes in Streetcar with "aaahhhhhhhhhhhhh yeeeeeeeeeaaaahhhhhh, Here's big Mar with some mo' fiyahh fo dat ass. Stellaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!". It would just be too hard for me to take it seriously. It detracts from the art and focuses on the promotion. Imagine a film like Mystic River spending 5 minutes on a scene between characters talking about how great of a director Clint Eastwood while in character during the film, just because Clint was directing and wanted to let people know he's the man. That's how feel when I hear a lopt of rappers. -Shallow

FANTASTIC POINT, I've often felt the same way about alot of rap for years. That's kinda why I like game though, he does it to the point of self satire. like he's aware of the ridiculous aspects of hip hop and uses them to a sarcastic but still artistic extent...he's like a personification of everything wrong and right in the hip hop game(street enough to get street cred but too street to avoid beef dig?). just a thought. either way, shallow, great post. I hope to see you around more. +1

-T

-T

I always like that stuff when done in satire. Be it song, or film.

[Tanjential]

you listen to Game?

-T

[Shallow]

you listen to Game?

-T

Not enough to notice that. I'll take a listen though..

[Tanjential]

well, some people may argue that he doesn't do it intentionally. But I think he does.

-T

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

Everybody thinks it's there duty to run and defend Rock music whenever anybody says they don't like it.  And this is supposed to be a hip-hop forum.  I know they don't defend hip-hop like this on Rock music forums.

[Shallow]

Everybody thinks it's there duty to run and defend Rock music whenever anybody says they don't like it.  And this is supposed to be a hip-hop forum.  I know they don't defend hip-hop like this on Rock music forums.

You didn't just say you didn't like it. You had to ignorantly bash it. I know you only did it to be funny and get a rise out of people but some people for some odd reason take you seriously every once in a while. I know the majority of your posts are intended to be stupid and I usually leave you alone but when others think you're serious with your stupid backhanded insults I respond to those people.

For the record I have often defended hip hop on many rock discussion boards and on the Springsteen board I frequent. People here don't defend rock for the sake of rock, or being white. They just get annoyed with your complete waste of time comments and lash out at you. Try being 100% genuine and reasonble for a change and you'll see a great difference in how people respond to you.

[Narrator]

Everybody thinks it's there duty to run and defend Rock music whenever anybody says they don't like it.  And this is supposed to be a hip-hop forum.  I know they don't defend hip-hop like this on Rock music forums.

You ever even been to any rock forums?  Or general music forums?  How you even gonna speak on it?

Just shut up now, seriously just shut the fuck up.  You're always going to be a pathetic cracker and I'm still going to kill you when the revolution starts.  Allah doesn't want me to live in "submission to the creator" with you; Allah wants me to grab the chopper and empty the clip in your direction.

guerilla-from-the-mist, rap is not the only real music. Bob Dylan in the 60's was at least as political as PE. he marched with dr.king, sang songs at the same rally he delivered I have a dream at.

That's not what I said, fag boy.  Get off Shallow's dick now.  He's saying precisely the opposite of what your stupid ass thought I said.

[white Boy]

for one, infinite is retarded and ive learned to try and ignore him.

more things i dont like about hip hop: i hate how a rapper will always tell you how he will tell you something like "ima teach you guys" or "ima drop knowledge" but never do. also i hate how they will have 1 fragment out of nowhere with some "knowledge" that has nothing to do with the song so they could, i dunno, seem smarter.


also why is everyone like, this is a hip hop forum leave, dude, its the outbound, its not just for east and south rap, its for all kinds of music, plus most of us have been here for years,  and some of us grew.

btw, bill maher's thoughts

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/6pm2wTGgYAw" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/6pm2wTGgYAw</a>