Do you really care about religion?

[7even]

I can only speak for myself, but churches and religion are emotionally wrecking. They force human beings into unnecessary submission and keep the masses oppressed. Just thinking of an institution that forces that upon their people, drives me sick. The world would be a better place if people started believing in philosophy instead of the common religious doctrines that wipe away personal judgement. "It was written, therefore it is" is some of the foulest stuff ever thought of.

Yes, we all need morality and mental strength, but you definately don't need religion for that. Not to down anyone with religious beliefs, but that's just my take. With that being said, yes I really do care about religion. I strongly disapprove of it.

[No Compute]

I'm not religous and I think the reason for this is none of my really close relations are.

[Shallow]

But honestly, even when you don't want to go to church, but go anyways, when you get out of that place you always feel good. And sorry there's no denying that. Everybody, no matter what religion you are, everybody leaves church either happy or with a smile on.

Wrong.

I can only speak for myself, but churches and religion are emotionally wrecking. They force human beings into unnecessary submission and keep the masses oppressed. Just thinking of an institution that forces that upon their people, drives me sick. The world would be a better place if people started believing in philosophy instead of the common religious doctrines that wipe away personal judgement. "It was written, therefore it is" is some of the foulest stuff ever thought of.

Yes, we all need morality and mental strength, but you definately don't need religion for that. Not to down anyone with religious beliefs, but that's just my take. With that being said, yes I really do care about religion. I strongly disapprove of it.

What force? You don't like a church you can just walk out and never go back. No one is forcing you into anything. I hate it when people try and equate it to oppression. You want to talk oppression look no further than our current "democracies". We're forced to live in countries where if you want chamge you must vote for PEOPLE to lead us with out having any real say or vote in any actual decisions ourselves. Then these elitest communists and 1 term kings tax us for our labour, and monopolize most life necessities. They teach us what they deem proper in schools creating a large mass of mindless drones whose survival is dependant on these monsters. And if you want to avoid their system your chances of any kind of success are slim to none. The church can't keep you from getting into heaven or what have you, they can't keep you from being happy or spiritual. You can do what you want in any way you want, spiritually. You go and try to become a doctor or lawyer with out doing it the exact way the government wants you to do it and see how possible that is. The fact is that you could become as good a doctor as anyone by simply becoming an apprentice to a doctor but go try and become one like that. No you are FORCED to go through a sanctioned elementary curriculum, FORCED to attend undergrad studies at an accredited university, FORCED to go through a med school, and FORCED to get a license. Explain to me how in a small town for instance the current doctor couldn't just pick 5 or 6 of the brightest kids in their early teens have them study him, and teach them what does, and as the years go buy the kids with less interest get filtered out and the one that does the best takes over as the new doctor when he or she is of age, and not create as capable as doctor as anyone coming out of med school. You know what would happen if a doctor did this and succeeded? He'd lose his license, get charged, fined, maybe even sentenced. The kid who is now a qualified doctor would not be recognized as such and any attempt to help someone sick or dieing would be a crime. Don't talk to me about emotionally wrecking or unnecessary submission.

[Elevz]

What force? You don't like a church you can just walk out and never go back. No one is forcing you into anything. I hate it when people try and equate it to oppression.

That is exactly my problem: it gives people an illusion of freedom. Do you realize people are born into a religion, and that if it weren't for their upbringing (disposable cultural influences, pedagogically forced upon them) nobody on this earth would be religious, simply because there is no rationality behind the whole concept? They make you pray at the mercy of some sort of almighty being that is supposed to tell you at judgement day whether you've been a good person or not.... Anyone with a decent set of brains knows that there is no such thing as good or evil. They are empty words, were it not for the fact that these doctrines force a certain meaning upon them. Now you try and give me a rational, objective meaning of the word "good". It doesn't exist.

You want to talk oppression look no further than our current "democracies". We're forced to live in countries where if you want chamge you must vote for PEOPLE to lead us with out having any real say or vote in any actual decisions ourselves. Then these elitest communists and 1 term kings tax us for our labour, and monopolize most life necessities. They teach us what they deem proper in schools creating a large mass of mindless drones whose survival is dependant on these monsters. And if you want to avoid their system your chances of any kind of success are slim to none. The church can't keep you from getting into heaven or what have you, they can't keep you from being happy or spiritual. You can do what you want in any way you want, spiritually. You go and try to become a doctor or lawyer with out doing it the exact way the government wants you to do it and see how possible that is. The fact is that you could become as good a doctor as anyone by simply becoming an apprentice to a doctor but go try and become one like that. No you are FORCED to go through a sanctioned elementary curriculum, FORCED to attend undergrad studies at an accredited university, FORCED to go through a med school, and FORCED to get a license. Explain to me how in a small town for instance the current doctor couldn't just pick 5 or 6 of the brightest kids in their early teens have them study him, and teach them what does, and as the years go buy the kids with less interest get filtered out and the one that does the best takes over as the new doctor when he or she is of age, and not create as capable as doctor as anyone coming out of med school. You know what would happen if a doctor did this and succeeded? He'd lose his license, get charged, fined, maybe even sentenced. The kid who is now a qualified doctor would not be recognized as such and any attempt to help someone sick or dieing would be a crime. Don't talk to me about emotionally wrecking or unnecessary submission.

Well, I never was fond of this whole concept of pseudo-democracy (the aristocratic type that is... or in fact any kind of democracy). This western concept of pseudo-democracy is far from ideal, but if you ask me, it is the best type of government currently in existance. For that reason, I wouldn't want to live elsewhere. Thing is, it's easy to choose a country to live in. You can emigrate all you want, if you expect to find a better place elsewhere. That's what makes it hard to compare politics to religion, because while politics is a system you live in, religion is something that becomes part of you. You try and escape the morality that's been eating its way into your personality for years. You won't find an escape, just like your ancestors didn't. And even if you do, it'll most likely be a switch from the catholic church to protestantism, for example. Those that do manage to abandon their ties to the church, are left permanently scarred. That's what society feeds off. That's what makes the morality of ones culture. That's what still shapes you, even if you do leave the church behind. I guess what they say is true, God is nowhere and everywhere at the same time.

Your example of a doctor is really unfitting if you ask me. Democratic governments do little but (claiming to be) protecting their citizens. The same thing goes for hospitals: if you need medical care, you want it done right. The degrees a student needs before he can become a doctor, provide the evidence that your doctor knows what he's talking about. The government simply protects you from being taken care of by a quack without knowing it. You can still see a quack-doctor if you like, but he won't be allowed to claim a certified title anymore. He can still heal people, and as long as they know the type of deal they enter, they're not allowed to sue him either. What's your problem with that?

Back to the subject though; religion forces social doctrines upon people, whereas atheists would at least bother with rationality. Whether or not rationality is a good thing, that's a philosophical question. I think it's vital, because all ratio comes from realistic observations of life. That's opposed to the whole concept of religion.

Once again, I don't mean to bash on anyone religious, I'm just sharing my viewpoint. The necessity of rationality is debatable; therefore so is the essence of religion (or atheism at that).

(Props btw)

[Shallow]

What force? You don't like a church you can just walk out and never go back. No one is forcing you into anything. I hate it when people try and equate it to oppression.

That is exactly my problem: it gives people an illusion of freedom. Do you realize people are born into a religion, and that if it weren't for their upbringing (disposable cultural influences, pedagogically forced upon them) nobody on this earth would be religious, simply because there is no rationality behind the whole concept? They make you pray at the mercy of some sort of almighty being that is supposed to tell you at judgement day whether you've been a good person or not.... Anyone with a decent set of brains knows that there is no such thing as good or evil. They are empty words, were it not for the fact that these doctrines force a certain meaning upon them. Now you try and give me a rational, objective meaning of the word "good". It doesn't exist.

It's not an illusion. Now we aren't talking the history of the church or what it was like in the middle ages. I am talking about the current church as it stands in our society. The church cannot force you to attend, believe, or practise.

Religion will always exist in some way shape or form because of two major factors among humans; hope and fear of death, and ignorance. The first one will always make a lot of people not want to accept that it all ends when you die and the second will always allow those with scandalous ambitions to take advantage of people with that hope and fear. Not everyone fears the end, maybe not everyone hopes for the end to not come, and not everyone that does feel that way is ignorant, but there will always be enough of those that are to create religion in every culture and society everywhere in the world.

I consider myself rational and with a decent set of brains and I believe in good and evil. I see it every day in front of me. Good is moral and evil is immoral. What the nature of these two concepts are is beyond my realm of knowledge, but I won't sit here and deny that it is good to help a fallen old lady that slipped on some ice and evil to kick her in the head while she's down, spit on her and run away with her purse. Some things are good, some things are bad, some are right, some are wrong. Most things have a gray area but a lot of things do not.

As far as doctrine is concerned, it is no more rational to me to say that the world created itself by a set of chances and everything evolved from nothing including humans and than it is to say that the world was created and the creation is proof of a creator. I say I don't know and move on but saying one with absolute authority is no more stupid than saying the other. Saying there is no eternal soul because you haven't seen it isn't any different than saying there is one. You can choose to believe it or not. At the end of the day you either have faith in those that report it or you don't. Faith is something that is everywhere. No one on this earth has any real idea what it was like in ancient Rome but because we have faith in those that reported on it when it was around we choose to believe it was this way, just like there are people that read the gospels and choose to believe that those people that wrote them saw what they saw. Prove to me that Julius Caesar did what he did and lived how he lived and I'll prove to you that Jesus rose from the dead. Neither of us can prove either.

You want to talk oppression look no further than our current "democracies". We're forced to live in countries where if you want chamge you must vote for PEOPLE to lead us with out having any real say or vote in any actual decisions ourselves. Then these elitest communists and 1 term kings tax us for our labour, and monopolize most life necessities. They teach us what they deem proper in schools creating a large mass of mindless drones whose survival is dependant on these monsters. And if you want to avoid their system your chances of any kind of success are slim to none. The church can't keep you from getting into heaven or what have you, they can't keep you from being happy or spiritual. You can do what you want in any way you want, spiritually. You go and try to become a doctor or lawyer with out doing it the exact way the government wants you to do it and see how possible that is. The fact is that you could become as good a doctor as anyone by simply becoming an apprentice to a doctor but go try and become one like that. No you are FORCED to go through a sanctioned elementary curriculum, FORCED to attend undergrad studies at an accredited university, FORCED to go through a med school, and FORCED to get a license. Explain to me how in a small town for instance the current doctor couldn't just pick 5 or 6 of the brightest kids in their early teens have them study him, and teach them what does, and as the years go buy the kids with less interest get filtered out and the one that does the best takes over as the new doctor when he or she is of age, and not create as capable as doctor as anyone coming out of med school. You know what would happen if a doctor did this and succeeded? He'd lose his license, get charged, fined, maybe even sentenced. The kid who is now a qualified doctor would not be recognized as such and any attempt to help someone sick or dieing would be a crime. Don't talk to me about emotionally wrecking or unnecessary submission.

Well, I never was fond of this whole concept of pseudo-democracy (the aristocratic type that is... or in fact any kind of democracy). This western concept of pseudo-democracy is far from ideal, but if you ask me, it is the best type of government currently in existance. For that reason, I wouldn't want to live elsewhere. Thing is, it's easy to choose a country to live in. You can emigrate all you want, if you expect to find a better place elsewhere. That's what makes it hard to compare politics to religion, because while politics is a system you live in, religion is something that becomes part of you. You try and escape the morality that's been eating its way into your personality for years. You won't find an escape, just like your ancestors didn't. And even if you do, it'll most likely be a switch from the catholic church to protestantism, for example. Those that do manage to abandon their ties to the church, are left permanently scarred. That's what society feeds off. That's what makes the morality of ones culture. That's what still shapes you, even if you do leave the church behind. I guess what they say is true, God is nowhere and everywhere at the same time.

I know plenty of people that have left the church. I don't know anyone that has left systematic oppresive government. It may have different names but the idea that you can just pick up and leave government oppression is absurd. Where can you go? Where are these magical countries that exist with out the government keeping you from doing it your way. I want to be free. I want liberty, and I think as long as you aren't infringing on someone else's liberty the government has no business getting in your way. I'm not an all out anarachist. I do believe that people that hurt people and dangerous people should be reprimanded for safety reasons but the rest of the junk the government shoves down our throats can go. If I don't agree with the church, and I don't, I don't do as the church tells me, and I don't. I have not had to move, or change lifestyles, or go into hiding and I'm doing just fine. I don't want to pay income tax. If I don't pay it I get in trouble. I think provincial sales tax in Ontario is a joke. I have no choice in that matter. To get out of it I would have to pick up everything and leave and go into hiding or find these magical lands of no government interference or fend for myself in the wild. It's nothing like leaving the church.


You really think poltics don't become a part of you? Let's ignore blatant cases like Che Guevara ordering killings of religious people for the sake of communism, and lets focus on more domestic things like liberalism. I know plenty of liberals that are athiests. Dead set athiests. They think I'm a monster or an idiot for saying things like if you're going to legalize gay marriage you can't keep incestual marriage illegal. Or that the earth warms and cools naturally all the time and always has and that it warmed 7 tenths of a degrees from 1905 to 1945 then it cooled while it's only warmed 6 tenths since 1975. They call me an asshole and a racist for saying welfare and and mininum wage are a joke and blacks and natives would be ten times better off today if it wasn't ever catored to them in the first place. My thoughts on unions are often scoffed at. They think I'm stupid for not believing that with out regulation we'd live in a warzone. I believe in education and the right to choose how you want to be educated. The liberals politics are a big part of who they. My religion is a big part of who I am, but so are my politics. I would never indulge in a recreational drug of any kind, but I'd never support the banning of any substance either.

You will always be molded by the society you live in and just because you disagree with it doesn't mean you won't find many disagreeing with a society you'd want to live in and deem perfect.

Your example of a doctor is really unfitting if you ask me. Democratic governments do little but (claiming to be) protecting their citizens. The same thing goes for hospitals: if you need medical care, you want it done right. The degrees a student needs before he can become a doctor, provide the evidence that your doctor knows what he's talking about. The government simply protects you from being taken care of by a quack without knowing it. You can still see a quack-doctor if you like, but he won't be allowed to claim a certified title anymore. He can still heal people, and as long as they know the type of deal they enter, they're not allowed to sue him either. What's your problem with that?

I think it fits perfectly in the environment I use it for; a small town. If I lived in Waldport Oregon with barely 2000 people and only onetown doctor and my doctor retires I'd feel more safe going to a 30 year old former apprentice of that doctor that the old doctor told me was ready than I would with an out of town hot shot from MIT. The apprentice would know how to treat people in the area and what is common in Waldport Oregon. The MIT guy would know a lot of theory and have read a lot of journals but he may not know the little things about a little town sickness. I'm not opposed to large medical clinics and big league med schools. I'm opposed to no alternative. That 30 year old apprentice could not legally write perscriptions or operate whether he was better at it than the fresh out of MIT doc or not. I'll take the word of a man that delivered every baby in my town and healed every sickness as stronger evidence of capabiility than a certified piece of paper from a school I've never seen in a city I've never been to. In the end it's about reputation. If I didn't know and trusted the doctor that recommended the apprentice I wouldn't feel comfortable with him. If I know and trust the school the new doc came from based on success rates and facts then I'd trust it. I don't think it needs to be done only one way though.

Back to the subject though; religion forces social doctrines upon people, whereas atheists would at least bother with rationality. Whether or not rationality is a good thing, that's a philosophical question. I think it's vital, because all ratio comes from realistic observations of life. That's opposed to the whole concept of religion.

Once again, I don't mean to bash on anyone religious, I'm just sharing my viewpoint. The necessity of rationality is debatable; therefore so is the essence of religion (or atheism at that).

(Props btw)

Agnostics are rational. Athiests are no more rational than fundamentalists. Athiests don't see and assume it isn't. Fundamentalists don't see and assume it is. Agnostics don't see and don't commit to anything because they don't see and accept the fact that it is beyond the their realm of knowledge. I can never understand how the universe was created or what it feels like to die so I don't think about it, EVER.  What I can understand is what it feels like to help someone in need and what it feels like to hurt someone. I can understand what it feels like to be refused help when I am in need and what it feels like to be hurt. That's what I focus on.

[7even]

Agnostics are lazy.

[Smoke Break]

^lmao

[Shallow]

Agnostics are lazy.

So am I.

[Paul]

no

[Blu Lacez]

I don't really care about religion..
But i do hold fast to Christianity and my relationship with God
I'll admit I'm not faithful to my relationship with God..
But i feel somewhere in my heart that it's something that i can't ultimately leave and turn back on!!

I respect other's religious views,as long as they don't try to shove their views down my throat!