The DFW thread: The D.O.C, Erotic D and 6-2

[Dre-Day]

so the helter skelter review wasn't that negative after all 
i expected the writer to heavily criticise the D.O.C. for rapping with the "different" voice.

Letīs throw in Rap Pages review while weīre at it 

293 The D.O.C; Helter Skelter review in Rap Pages December 1995
4 out of 10  ^^^^^

what a hater.

personally i'd rate this album 3.5 out of 5; at least the source gave this album a chance.
and i thought that the return of da livin' dead was a nice introduction to the album,
so the sample didn't really bother me,
although the remix is much better imo.

I actually love the album and could almost consider it a personal classic,
but the weak tracks drags it down  .
As you said at least The Source gave it a chance and even left "us" with the final call.

i'm starting to like it a bit more, right now i think i would rate it 3.75/5. 45 automatic and da hereafter have really grown on me ( i always liked the special effects though )
i hope Killa instinct will grow on me as well.

by the way, i'd like to know which tracks you don't like 

[Chad Vader]

Chadīs  PERSONAL breakdown of  The D.O.C Helter Skelter;

-Intro;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
Dope,like how itīs put together.
-Return Of The Living Dead
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 6
Donīt fit the voice and lyrics like the Remix,which leads me to believe that this is actually the ”real remix”,
the remix how ever is DOPE as fuck.
-From Ruthless 2 Death Row
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
Simply love it,the beat suits the story and the end when Erotic D scratch in all the classic D.O.C lines....
ohhhh shit.... that shit is crazy dope.
-Secret Plan
Lyrics; 8
Beat; 8
Some real dark shit reminds me of the ”sound” that RBX used on ”The RBX files”
-Komurshell;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
WTF; this shit is hilarious.
Seems like D.O.C was the mastermind behind those hilarious NWA skits.
-4 My Dogz;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
Another tigth story rap
-45 automatic
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
Ohhhh shit,the beat is FIRE,some serial killer shit.
The MC comes correct too.
Simply LOVE it.....
Sonzo OīLight;
Lyrics; 8
Beat; 8
Some dark shit again,but there seems to be a miss match somehow.
Bitchez;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
Some sad shit,love it....
-Interlude
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 6
Thatīs a crazy ass beat,but he drops some knowledge.
THINK IT AIN`T ILLEGAL YET! THINK IT AIN`T ILLEGAL YET!
-Da Hereafter;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
The only thing wrong with this track is the mix,I canīt barely hear the lyrics.
-Exotix Shit;
Lyrics; 7
Beat; 7
Some cypher shit,hmmm not the best trac kon the album but MC Breed saves it.
-Welcome To The New World;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
But Erotic D should left those add lips at home.
-Killa Instinct;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
Damn Iīve slept on this track,is that Dre heīs talking to at the begining?
Thatīs what fucking with the white g*rl do to you,if you do too much that is. 
But Iīm in a little conflict with this track...
-Komurshell;
Lyrics; 6
Beat; 6
Average,and Erotic D sounds like Dre on the mic.
-Brand New Formula;
Lyrics; 0
Beat; 0
No,NO you canīt re-create this classic.
-Outro;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
Like how put all the titles together to make sense out of it.
-Crazy Bitches;
Lyrics; 5
Beat; 5
Donīt feel it...

320/360 points that should equal something like 4.5 right?
But still it feels like a 4  ......
and got to add that a more objective rating would be more like 3.5. 

[Dre-Day]

Chadīs  PERSONAL breakdown of  The D.O.C Helter Skelter;

-Intro;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
Dope,like how itīs put together.

exactly! a great way to introduce the album and the new voice

-Return Of The Living Dead
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 6
Donīt fit the voice and lyrics like the Remix,which leads me to believe that this is actually the ”real remix”,
the remix how ever is DOPE as fuck.

at first i thought the beat was a bit cheap( even though they added effects), they should have switched the tracks, since the official remix is so much better like you said
the lyrics are good indeed.

-From Ruthless 2 Death Row
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
Simply love it,the beat suits the story and the end when Erotic D scratch in all the classic D.O.C lines....
ohhhh shit.... that shit is crazy dope.

it's a sad track, but the beat matches the lyrics perfectly; great storytelling by the D.O.C.
and the voice samples are a good indeed, it really gives you that what if feeling 

-Secret Plan
Lyrics; 8
Beat; 8
Some real dark shit reminds me of the ”sound” that RBX used on ”The RBX files”

yeah real dope indeed, with the sample and all.

-Komurshell;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
WTF; this shit is hilarious.
Seems like D.O.C was the mastermind behind those hilarious NWA skits.

yeah i guess you're right  skit is funny

-4 My Dogz;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
Another tigth story rap

not really liking the beat as much as you do, but it certainly isn't bad.
for the rest i agree.

-45 automatic
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
Ohhhh shit,the beat is FIRE,some serial killer shit.
The MC comes correct too.
Simply LOVE it.....

again, not loving the beat as much as you do, but i like the different elements though.
the lyrics are good, and i like the flow of the female mc; her style is similar to the Lady of Rage

Sonzo OīLight;
Lyrics; 8
Beat; 8
Some dark shit again,but there seems to be a miss match somehow.

yep, i like that dark shit too  but what do you mean?
anyway, i like how the beat changes halfway; it really makes it even more dramatic 

Bitchez;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
Some sad shit,love it....

i don't like the beat, but it fits the concept of the song well i guess.
the song is basically the D.O.C.'s parody of bitches ain't shit--> he talks about dre

-Interlude
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 6
Thatīs a crazy ass beat,but he drops some knowledge.
THINK IT AIN`T ILLEGAL YET! THINK IT AIN`T ILLEGAL YET!

for some reason i never really listened to this track, probably thought it was just a short skit. the beat is alright.

-Da Hereafter;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
The only thing wrong with this track is the mix,I canīt barely hear the lyrics.

and again i don't like the beat as much as you do, but i like all the elements.
for the rest i pretty much agree.

-Exotix Shit;
Lyrics; 7
Beat; 7
Some cypher shit,hmmm not the best trac kon the album but MC Breed saves it.

i don't really like this track

-Welcome To The New World;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
But Erotic D should left those add lips at home.

it's a shame that it was such a short track and i agree that Erotic D shouldn't have said anything 

-Killa Instinct;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
Damn Iīve slept on this track,is that Dre heīs talking to at the begining?
Thatīs what fucking with the white g*rl do to you,if you do too much that is. 
But Iīm in a little conflict with this track...

i don't know about the beat, there is something wrong with it, but i don't know how to decribe it 
the lyrics are good though.
and i'm not sure if that's dre; it could be Erotic-D too

-Komurshell;
Lyrics; 6
Beat; 6
Average,and Erotic D sounds like Dre on the mic.

it's decent at best i guess

-Brand New Formula;
Lyrics; 0
Beat; 0
No,NO you canīt re-create this classic.

like return of da livin dead, it wasn't very smart to recycle.

-Outro;
Lyrics; 10
Beat; 10
Like how put all the titles together to make sense out of it.

yeah that was nice. he's also talking about possible future plans, was he serious, he was talking about beyond 2000. it wasn't detailed offcourse.

-Crazy Bitches;
Lyrics; 5
Beat; 5
Donīt feel it...

the lyrics have some similarities with the bitchez track; but the D.O.C. doesn't sound good on this, it's almost unlistenable. while he tried to use his old flow on other tracks as well, this is the only track where it's on an unacceptable level for me.
the beat is average indeed.

320/360 points that should equal something like 4.5 right?
But still it feels like a 4  ......
and got to add that a more objective rating would be more like 3.5. 

well my rating ( 3.75) is a little lower, but that's just a matter of opinion offcourse 
if return of da livin' dead was switched with the official remix, crazy bitchez removed and the remix of "from ruthless to death row" was added as a bonus i might have rated it 4/5.

like you i heavily disagree with rap pages and the people who think that this album was a wasted effort.  stop acting like the D.O.C. lost his voice; it just sounds different. i understand that some people don't like the different style, but i just hate the exaggerations.
sure, Dr.Dre wasn't around, and trying to rap using the old flow was a bad idea, but overall Erotic D did a nice job with the production and the D.O.C's lyrics are great on this album imo; great concept album.

if dre was the executive producer for this album, and mixed the whole album i may have rated it even higher.

damn, i'm really looking forward to Voice Threw Hot Vessels; dre is going to be executive producing that album right?
it should be really interesting; the D.O.C. has also been working on his flow, as you can hear on Deuce so we'll see 

[Dre-Day]

WHAAAAAT?  laugh laugh The beat is absolutely FIRE!!!  laugh laugh
Passion is dope,I got some more features by her,she has apperntly released a couple of solo albums.
(according to a dubCC member in one of Phsycho Hustlas threads  Wink,but yet to check this myself)

well i'm not saying it's decent at best, but i just disagree with a 10 rating  but i can see why you like it. it really has a lot of potential, it's just one element that takes away a bit of it's shine. i don't know how to decribe it, it's a loop and it's sounds a bit like a bee or a mosquito (sorry for the vague description, hopefully you know what i mean though )

^^^^not even sure myself,maybe the vocals and the beat... something is not right,canīt really point my finger on it.

ok. i actually thought the D.O.C.'s flow was good on this, since the tempo on the beat was perfect for his voice. i like the chorus 
this is my favorite track off of helter skelter 
edit: although i'm not sure, i really like secret plan too 

^^^^got to listen to that again.... remember he was fucking with the wh*te g*rl heavy at the time  Undecided,
so he said and did things out of characther at times.

you don't mean that literally right, you're talking about drugs ?

^^^^Well I know as much as you.^^^^
We just got to wait and see...  Wink

you know, just like detox i'm really looking forward to it.

Deuce was a compilation, and i want another D.O.C. soloalbum    the result could be a bit disappointing offcourse, but it seems like he has the tools that he missed when making helter skelter

[D~Nice]

Yeah I enjoyed Helter Skelter as well. The lyrical content was there and the beats were knockin. The whole voice thing yeah it may turn most off to his music, but like Dre said earlier, I thought on alot of tracks that Erotic D especially did a good job of matching his vocals well with the beats. If I was put on the spot and had to rank it, I would give it a 4 out of 5.

[Dre-Day]

Yeah I enjoyed Helter Skelter as well. The lyrical content was there and the beats were knockin. The whole voice thing yeah it may turn most off to his music, but like Dre-Day said earlier, I thought on alot of tracks that Erotic D especially did a good job of matching his vocals well with the beats. If I was put on the spot and had to rank it, I would give it a 4 out of 5.

yeah, it's just a shame that the D.O.C. did some attempts to adapt the old flow 

thanks for doing a little review 

[Dre-Day]

he was fucking with the wh*te g*rl heavy at the time so he said and did things out of characther at times.

you don't mean that literally right, you're talking about drugs ?

white girl
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=white+girl

lol ok, didn't know that 

[D~Nice]

Yeah I enjoyed Helter Skelter as well. The lyrical content was there and the beats were knockin. The whole voice thing yeah it may turn most off to his music, but like Dre-Day said earlier, I thought on alot of tracks that Erotic D especially did a good job of matching his vocals well with the beats. If I was put on the spot and had to rank it, I would give it a 4 out of 5.

yeah, it's just a shame that the D.O.C. did some attempts to adapt the old flow 

thanks for doing a little review 

No problem. I just hate that alot of people never gave that album a chance due to the fact that his voice changed. That still does not mean that the man does not have alot to say and did he ever on Helter Skelter. My boy was a hardcore D.O.C. fan and would not even pop HS in the deck to check it out because of his voice. I remember Dr. Dre saying in a interview he advised DOC not to drop the album because it will go double aluminum because of his voice. Slept on album.

[Dre-Day]

Yeah I enjoyed Helter Skelter as well. The lyrical content was there and the beats were knockin. The whole voice thing yeah it may turn most off to his music, but like Dre-Day said earlier, I thought on alot of tracks that Erotic D especially did a good job of matching his vocals well with the beats. If I was put on the spot and had to rank it, I would give it a 4 out of 5.

yeah, it's just a shame that the D.O.C. did some attempts to adapt the old flow 

thanks for doing a little review 

No problem. I just hate that alot of people never gave that album a chance due to the fact that his voice changed. That still does not mean that the man does not have alot to say and did he ever on Helter Skelter. My boy was a hardcore D.O.C. fan and would not even pop HS in the deck to check it out because of his voice. I remember Dr. Dre saying in a interview he advised DOC not to drop the album because it will go double aluminum because of his voice. Slept on album.

totally agree with you.

and i can see why dre was criticising helter skelter, but i find it interesting how the D.O.C. is discrediting that album ( even though i know it's not a classic)
just check this:

ThaFormula.com - After the first Chronic dropped, did you see things starting to come to an end or not?

D.O.C. - Oh sure I did.  See the shit that they were doing was unnecessary and sooner or later that shit is gonna catch up.  The drug shit had started to get kind of old.  In '94, I asked Dre what's up with me rappin'. I had written a song and he said you should let me put that on this next record and it really pissed me off because nobody was really givin' a fuck about me.  I told him what about me muthafucka, I wanna rap to.  I wanted to do something, but they had regulated me to comic relief.  I'm a damn fool anyway.  I'm a natural comedian so that's what I had been regulated to.  I was the comic relief on the album. 

ThaFormula.com - So Dre said no about you rappin then?

D.O.C. - He didn't think that you could make a good record with this voice.  So that's when I left out of there.  See me and Dre is like a big brother, little brother thing and when the big brother piss his little brother off, then his little brother is gonna number one, take his shit and run with it, which I did.  "Heltah Skeltah" was really a Dr. Dre record that he was starting to plan on working on that I had actually already started writing lyrics for, and one of the songs that he was trying to takeaway from me was a song that he wanted to put on "Heltah Skeltah."  So I was like "fuck this shit," went to Atlanta and recorded the album.

ThaFormula.com - When you look back at that album now, what are your thoughts on it?

D.O.C. - I think that the album was as far as hip-hop records are concerned not a great record.  There is merit to the record because of who it is and because of the shit the dude done went through trying to get his shit done, but I didn't go buy it.  I'll put it to you like that and if I wouldn't go buy it then it ain't really happening.

ThaFormula.com - Do you think it was a mistake when you look back at it now?

D.O.C. - Hell nah, I needed money.  I had no money.

ThaFormula.com - So did the album end up doing alright?

D.O.C. - I think it ended up selling 290,000 copies.  I had some real strong D.O.C. fans out there that I hated to bug and jack them out of their 16 dollars like that.

http://www.thaformula.com/doc_ruthless_to_death_row_thaformula_music.html

[D~Nice]

Yeah I enjoyed Helter Skelter as well. The lyrical content was there and the beats were knockin. The whole voice thing yeah it may turn most off to his music, but like Dre-Day said earlier, I thought on alot of tracks that Erotic D especially did a good job of matching his vocals well with the beats. If I was put on the spot and had to rank it, I would give it a 4 out of 5.

yeah, it's just a shame that the D.O.C. did some attempts to adapt the old flow 

thanks for doing a little review 

No problem. I just hate that alot of people never gave that album a chance due to the fact that his voice changed. That still does not mean that the man does not have alot to say and did he ever on Helter Skelter. My boy was a hardcore D.O.C. fan and would not even pop HS in the deck to check it out because of his voice. I remember Dr. Dre saying in a interview he advised DOC not to drop the album because it will go double aluminum because of his voice. Slept on album.

totally agree with you.

and i can see why dre was criticising helter skelter, but i find it interesting how the D.O.C. is discrediting that album ( even though i know it's not a classic)
just check this:

ThaFormula.com - After the first Chronic dropped, did you see things starting to come to an end or not?

D.O.C. - Oh sure I did.  See the shit that they were doing was unnecessary and sooner or later that shit is gonna catch up.  The drug shit had started to get kind of old.  In '94, I asked Dre what's up with me rappin'. I had written a song and he said you should let me put that on this next record and it really pissed me off because nobody was really givin' a fuck about me.  I told him what about me muthafucka, I wanna rap to.  I wanted to do something, but they had regulated me to comic relief.  I'm a damn fool anyway.  I'm a natural comedian so that's what I had been regulated to.  I was the comic relief on the album. 

ThaFormula.com - So Dre said no about you rappin then?

D.O.C. - He didn't think that you could make a good record with this voice.  So that's when I left out of there.  See me and Dre is like a big brother, little brother thing and when the big brother piss his little brother off, then his little brother is gonna number one, take his shit and run with it, which I did.  "Heltah Skeltah" was really a Dr. Dre record that he was starting to plan on working on that I had actually already started writing lyrics for, and one of the songs that he was trying to takeaway from me was a song that he wanted to put on "Heltah Skeltah."  So I was like "fuck this shit," went to Atlanta and recorded the album.

ThaFormula.com - When you look back at that album now, what are your thoughts on it?

D.O.C. - I think that the album was as far as hip-hop records are concerned not a great record.  There is merit to the record because of who it is and because of the shit the dude done went through trying to get his shit done, but I didn't go buy it.  I'll put it to you like that and if I wouldn't go buy it then it ain't really happening.

ThaFormula.com - Do you think it was a mistake when you look back at it now?

D.O.C. - Hell nah, I needed money.  I had no money.

ThaFormula.com - So did the album end up doing alright?

D.O.C. - I think it ended up selling 290,000 copies.  I had some real strong D.O.C. fans out there that I hated to bug and jack them out of their 16 dollars like that.

http://www.thaformula.com/doc_ruthless_to_death_row_thaformula_music.html

Interesting. I thought it was well put together and lyrically it was on point.

[Dre-Day]

^^^^^
all artists,well most is like that especially if the album didnīt perform well.
One cat in particular,Erick Sermon never managed to do any numbers by himself,
so when he was promoting the album he was about to drop (at the time) he always said some shit about his previous efforts. 

i see. but you probably agree with me that the D.O.C. was a bit too critical on himself, even though i think he was right about some of the flaws of helter skelter.
 

i mean, he is not as positive about deuce, as he was before, but he's still more positive about Deuce than helter skelter, to give an example 

[Dre-Day]

as requested: Six 2 & Big Mike - Down home

http://www.zshare.net/audio/75798669d48fa3/

[HEC]

The voice change is a bit too much for me as well simply because we are not talking about an average rapper here, the DOC was one fo the greats when it came to his voice, flow and lyricism he had the whole package as an MC not to mention Dre in his corner. With the voice change it works on some tracks but a whole album of it doesn't really engage me. I am listening to it and his lyricism is still on a high level and the production surprisingly is good as well. I would say 3-3.5/5 right now but I am giving it a few more spins

[Dre-Day]

The voice change is a bit too much for me as well simply because we are not talking about an average rapper here, the DOC was one fo the greats when it came to his voice, flow and lyricism he had the whole package as an MC not to mention Dre in his corner. With the voice change it works on some tracks but a whole album of it doesn't really engage me. I am listening to it and his lyricism is still on a high level and the production surprisingly is good as well. I would say 3-3.5/5 right now but I am giving it a few more spins

exactly. we weren't saying that everybody should love the "new" voice, but some people immediately judge, without really checking out the album.

so thanks for giving this a chance.

[HEC]

The voice change is a bit too much for me as well simply because we are not talking about an average rapper here, the DOC was one fo the greats when it came to his voice, flow and lyricism he had the whole package as an MC not to mention Dre in his corner. With the voice change it works on some tracks but a whole album of it doesn't really engage me. I am listening to it and his lyricism is still on a high level and the production surprisingly is good as well. I would say 3-3.5/5 right now but I am giving it a few more spins

exactly. we weren't saying that everybody should love the "new" voice, but some people immediately judge, without really checking out the album.

so thanks for giving this a chance.

yeah I remember purchasing the album in '96 and until recently haven't listened to it all that much since that time, but I am gaining a new respect for it definitely