Author Topic: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity  (Read 464 times)

7even

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Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« on: June 15, 2007, 02:57:56 PM »
I'm going to give my take on this later, when I'm more in the mood of posting something longer, lol




We should have a separate thread about the Trinity... since this thread is about something totally different, but just to point something out really quick...


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one".  (Mark 12:29)

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone."  (Mark 10:18)

Cause I don't care where I belong no more
What we share or not I will ignore
And I won't waste my time fitting in
Cause I don't think contrast is a sin
No, it's not a sin
 

Shallow

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2007, 03:41:58 PM »
I don't usually discuss areas like this because it relies too much on the unknown, but the way I choose to see it is like this; God the father isn't like a man in heaven calling shots. It's more like an energy that created the universe and still resides all around us. The son, Jesus in this case, would be the result of the energy transporting itself directly into a vessel and speaking, giving direct orders untarnished by the weakness of man, and the holy spirit would be the energy that lives inside of us that we look to for guidance. So I guess I see it like The father created us, the son told us how to live and the spirit reminds us how to live when we go astray. Of course we can chose to ignore it and continue to defy what we know is right. Now I don't think you have to take it as priests tell you or believe in conventional religion. A Jesus like figure could have come 1000 times or 1 time. I don't know. I think it's more imortant to obey the message than it is to believe in the messenger or the creator of the message. That's just how I see it.
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2007, 03:45:06 PM »
please read scriptures in context.

Jamal you have taken the Mark 12:29 scripture out of context, look at what happens when i add chapter 28 at the beginning of it

Mark 12:28-29 (28) One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
(29)"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one

they asked Jesus all of all the commandments which is the most important Jesus quoted from Deuteronomy 6:4 which says....

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

if you don't believe me check it for youself. you see what happens when scriptures are taken out of context

next scripture Mark 10:18. lets look at Mark 10:17-19

Mark 10:17-19 (17)As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
 (18)"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. (19)You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother."

Jesus said that because the man who came up and asked him that question thought that Jesus was a mere man because he called him a "good Teacher" so Jesus was just saying God is good (God is the source) trust in God. he didn't want to just teach the man and send him on his way he wanted to let the man no/remind him not to rely on Jewish teachers (who are called good) but rely on God that is why Jesus told the man (who claimed to be good by keeping all of the commandments) to sell all his possesions (and trust in God who is good/the source). you see the man thought he was good aswell because he kept all of the commandments and Jesus was saying don't trust what you can see (a good teacher) but trust on what you cant see (the word that God spoke through Jesus, which was good)
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2007, 03:48:23 PM »
there is no trinity. There is no mention in the original texts of a trinity.
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2007, 03:52:10 PM »
^ LOL you didn't refute anything...

He said "our God"... if I were to make a statement to one of my classmates that included "our teacher said..."  , could that in any logical way imply that I am the teacher? LOL.

Let me ask you a simple question... common sense and logic...  if A>B, can A=B? Because that's what you would imply if you were to say that Jesus = God after looking at
John 14:28 - "My father is greater than I"
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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2007, 03:53:14 PM »
there is no trinity. There is no mention in the original texts of a trinity.

Thank you.

Something as important as the trinity would certainly have been mentioned or explained. Not once... I emphasize, not once at all, in the entire bible did Jesus say "I am God" or "Worship me".
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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2007, 03:58:45 PM »


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one".  (Mark 12:29)

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone."  (Mark 10:18)



Jamal had an excellent quote. 

Religion has always been one.  Whatever name that God was called, whether it be Allah, the Creator, the Universal Energy, Universal Love. the Highest Power.... Allah has been called many names.  Religion has always been worshipping God and doing good deeds.  This is what all the Prophets known and unknown taught.

^^This is also what Jesus taught.  Jesus was a human being.  Just like some humans like Micheal Jordan, excell in sports, or some people excell in tehnology like Bill Gates, Allah has also selected certain people to be the leaders and teachers in religious aspects of life; these are the Prophets.  Jesus was a Prophet, like Moses, Muhammad, and 400,000 or so others who have been sent to all nations throughout time.

As far as the Trinity is concerned.  There are two principal figures regarding the trinity.  Paul and Constantine.  We all know that Paul was actually a ruthless warlord who persecuted the origional Christians.  Yet, on day that all changed, and he became a conqueror for form of Christianity that more closely resembled the polytheistic practices of his culture.  Some hundred years after Jesus, he was riding on a horse to Damascus when he claims he had a vision that Jesus had been reserrected and that God was three, the father, son, and Holy Ghost.

Next point is about Constantine.  Who lived around 300AD.  There were actually many more books in the origional Gospels, like the book of Barnibus for example, the book of Barnibus is totally monothestic and does not support the trinity.  There were a wide variety of schools of thought amongst the followers of Jesus, and many were monotheistic and followed Jesus' origional teachings that he was a human worshipping a higher power (God).   However, Constantine wanted to consolidate his empire, so he condensed and altered the Bible many times over, in an effort to support the Trinity, and he killed anybody who opposed the trinity.
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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2007, 07:29:05 AM »
^ LOL you didn't refute anything...

He said "our God"... if I were to make a statement to one of my classmates that included "our teacher said..."  , could that in any logical way imply that I am the teacher? LOL.

Let me ask you a simple question... common sense and logic...  if A>B, can A=B? Because that's what you would imply if you were to say that Jesus = God after looking at
John 14:28 - "My father is greater than I"



Well if you read John 14 in it's entirety you would see it's not that simple.

John 14

 1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."

 5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

 8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

 9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

 22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

 23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

 25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

 28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
      "Come now; let us leave.

Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that. John starts out in John 1 by saying that Jesus was in the beginning with God. He was the Word of God and he came to Earth. You could look at it like The Father would be the thought, while the son is the word, and the spirit is an extension of the word placed inside of us. We don't know what God thinks but we know what he said or what we were/are told.

There is no easy answer to this. Trying to make claims one way or another is a waste of time because they can be refuted by anyone that wants to figure out a way to refute them. Why even worry about his aspect? Honestly speaking if God were to refuse people who obeyed his words and loved his message because they worshipped the wrong way then I'd rather not be accepted.

I opposed the Quran because I found various teachings immoral. The same reason I oppose the letters of Paul. Every religion is equally illogical. I don't care to find realistic logic. Why try and find logic in the unknown? I stick what I can understand and leave what I cannot understand alone.
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2007, 08:55:33 AM »
Jamal, Are you serious  Jesus was quoting the scripture in Deuteronomy 6:4 the people asked him what is the greatest commandment in the bible (Jewish bible) so Jesus obviously quoted exactly what it said why should he change what the scripture says the scripture blatantly  says in Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy 6:4 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one

what was Jesus supposed to say

Hear, o Israel, I the Lord, I am one,

The Jewish leaders would of said “what that scripture is not in our bible” and then tried to kill him for blasphemy.

Jesus was God look at this scripture (this is what shallow was taliking about)

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

there is no trinity. There is no mention in the original texts of a trinity.

The word "trinity" isn’t found in the bible, so what, Trinity was the name given to define the relationship between Jesus, God and the holy spirit,There are scriptures that showed us how Jesus, God and the holy spirit were one here are a few

John 10:30 Jesus said I am in the father and the father is in me

This shows that the father is in Jesus

Matthew 28:19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Why would Jesus tell people to baptise in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit. Why didn’t he just say baptise them in the name of God if the holy spirit and Jesus weren’t one

John 20:22 (22) And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
In all other scripture the holy spirit comes down from heaven yet Jesus was able to breath the holy spirit and they received. Only God can do that.

The concept of God being a trinity might be hard to understand so let me give you another example of a trinity. Man is also a Trinity man is made up of 3 parts body spirit and soul but we are still one person

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul

there is no trinity. There is no mention in the original texts of a trinity.

Thank you.

Something as important as the trinity would certainly have been mentioned or explained. Not once... I emphasize, not once at all, in the entire bible did Jesus say "I am God" or "Worship me".

Jamal you cant find where it says I am god and where Jesus but look

Jesus is God

John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"

“ I am” is what God called himself in Exodus 3:14

Exodus 3:14 - "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

In john 20:28-29 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
(29) Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Jesus doesn’t say he is God but he doesn’t Thomas him and say not Thomas I am not God.

John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Worship

Matthew 28:8-10 (8)So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. (9)Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. (10)Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" (37)Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." (38)And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

The bible says worship the lord and only but the disciples were worshipping him

 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2007, 10:26:47 PM »
Throughout the Bible we see Jesus referring to God as "my Father", but he also tells the people that God is "your Father". If you guys take it literally and say that Jesus is the son of God, then take it literally for everyone else as well... we're all children of God... point is, Jesus did not literally mean that "God is my daddy and Mary is my mommy". Further, if you want to take the "Son of God" thing literally... throughout the Bible you'll see how many "sons" God really has then....

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn (ISRAEL IS GOD'S FIRST SON! LOL)

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. (WAIT, NOW EPHRAIM IS HIS FIRSTBORN SON... if we take this literally, the only question would be: wtf is going on?!)

The reason: Back then the Jews called any righteous person a "son of God".


One thing that should be clear to even you is that "the father" = God. So if Jesus admits that he's not the father, he's also admitting that he's not God:

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

And then your Holy Bible says....
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know (JESUS IS A MAN APPROVED OF GOD... THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT GOD)


Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
          5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
          6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

(LOL okay now it just gets funny... you're told "how can any man be compared with God, any man born of a woman is not even pure enough to be compared with God, if even the stars dim in comparison to God, man ain't nothing but a fucking worm"... "and the son of man is a worm".... wait, isn't Jesus explicitly called "the son of man" in the new testament dozens of times? LOL)

But it get's better...

Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
          22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
(We can even ignore the ridiculous thought of God getting circumsized... but now God made Mary impure? refer back to Job 25:4 right above.... is that just another contradiction in the Bible or is Jesus not God? LOL)



SHALLOW: You didn't prove anything. The most you're able to prove is that the Bible is contradicting itself, which I'll agree with. But Jesus still explicitly states that "My father is greater than I".  It's logic: if A>B, A cannot in any way = B!

Also, I'm glad you pointed out John 14:24 for us - "He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.".... where Jesus once again admits that he is not God.

Now let's look further...

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(He admits that he can't do shit without God. Again, he's not God. God sent him)


Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
(When something is given to you, that means it wasn't yours before that... Jesus had no power of his own until it was given to him... who gave it to him? GOD!)








Facez
You left out the context of John 10:30 (I and my Father are one):

23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God

- Look at what he's talking about, he's saying that he and God are one in purpose, not they're the same person.
- He even backs this by telling the Jews who are trying to pick a fight with him that God called them "gods", Moses was called God to Pharoah, etc.... don't pick and choose by taking it literally for Jesus... Moses is God too then, all the Jewish people are Gods, and AlmightyBlackman is God too.
- To show you what I mean:

John17: 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

He’s talking about the disciples, the people, etc. all being “one”… IN PURPOSE!.. just as Jesus and God are ONE IN PURPOSE.



As for John 20:28, here’s the context:

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

- Thomas said “My Lord and my God” as an exclamation the way we say “OH MY GOD”  when we see something we can’t believe,,, he didn’t say “Jesus, you’re God”, the same way we don’t consider something extraordinary that makes us respond in that way as God.  In 20:31 this is affirmed because would we not have read then that “ye might believe that Jesus is GOD”?




Let me ask you guys this... we all agree that God is uncreated and eternal... and he CREATED Jesus, he brought Jesus into existence... how can Jesus be God? Jesus is created, while God is uncreated... although God is omniscient, it is just as impossible to created an uncreated as it is to create a three-sided square.... logic limits omnipotence. God can't make more Gods.... if you think he can and has, then Christians are by definition polytheists.


If Jesus is God simply because he had no father (and you guys assume that God must therefore be his father), then wouldn't Adam be a "greater" God since he didn't have a father nor mother? LOL. Or better yet:

Hebrews 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Why don't Christians worship Melchisedec? He has all the qualities of God... no father, no mother, no descent, no begnning or end... come on guys, he's obviously greater than Jesus.


And who was Jesus praying to when he was on the cross, or praying to at any time? Himself? No... he prayed to GOD just like all the other times:

John 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
("that they may believe that thou hast sent me"... remember: John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm going to help you guys out... there's ONLY ONE VERSE in the entire Bible that clearly outlines the Trinity (Facez, I'm surprised you didn't bring it up):

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Oh yeah, it’s because all recent versions of the Bible, such as the Revised Standard Version the New Revised Standard Version, the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible, the Phillips Modern English Bible ...etc. have all thrown it out as a FABRICATION! LOL!

Case closed.




« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 11:15:03 PM by J @ M @ L »
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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2007, 12:50:49 AM »
im sorry,  but can sum1 explain to this youngsta bout trinity???
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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2007, 08:19:50 AM »

SHALLOW: You didn't prove anything. The most you're able to prove is that the Bible is contradicting itself, which I'll agree with. But Jesus still explicitly states that "My father is greater than I".  It's logic: if A>B, A cannot in any way = B!

Also, I'm glad you pointed out John 14:24 for us - "He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.".... where Jesus once again admits that he is not God.

Now let's look further...

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(He admits that he can't do shit without God. Again, he's not God. God sent him)


Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
(When something is given to you, that means it wasn't yours before that... Jesus had no power of his own until it was given to him... who gave it to him? GOD!)


What was I trying to prove? That equation to God is mentioned in the Gospels. I never subordination to God wasn't mentioned. I  just said;

"There is no easy answer to this. Trying to make claims one way or another is a waste of time because they can be refuted by anyone that wants to figure out a way to refute them. Why even worry about his aspect? Honestly speaking if God were to refuse people who obeyed his words and loved his message because they worshipped the wrong way then I'd rather not be accepted."


Now tell me what I was trying to prove.


Maybe the book is contradictory, maybe the apostles couldn't grasp what Jesus was saying, maybe they chose to change it, maybe much is lost in the translation from Greek, maybe you are interpreting it wrong. Here is the thing; as a christian I believe Jesus was perfect. I don't believe the apostles were, or that the Bible is. If I find something wrong in the Bible (I've yet to find something morally wrong with Jesus' teachings.) I can dismiss it because it's just a book. But when I find something wrong with the perfect Quran, I dismiss the whole religion because apparently God wrote that book. And I can't believe God wants my wife to be subordinate to me (which is why I also dismiss St. Paul).
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2007, 12:18:35 PM »
I was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."

And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:

John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.

That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.
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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2007, 06:51:25 PM »
I was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."

And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:

John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.

That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.


Now the "obviously" is my only real issue. There is no "obviously" in the Bible when it comes to most things. If anything was obvious then they're wouldn't be so many rifts with in Christianty.

Yes he says the one who sent me is greater than me, but he also says if you have seen me you have seen the father. What all that means exactly is anyone's guess. You can spin it one way and I can spin it another. But you can't deny (not saying that you have) that Jesus puts himself and allows himself to be put above all men. When the gospels talk of apostles worshipping him they don't say that he stopped them from doing so. Now believing that the gospels were re-written is one thing and that's fine but when people claim that the gospels only view him as a normal man who is just another prophet and it was Paul that added to it they are wrong.
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2007, 11:40:04 PM »
I was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."

And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:

John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.

That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.


Now the "obviously" is my only real issue. There is no "obviously" in the Bible when it comes to most things. If anything was obvious then they're wouldn't be so many rifts with in Christianty.

Yes he says the one who sent me is greater than me, but he also says if you have seen me you have seen the father. What all that means exactly is anyone's guess. You can spin it one way and I can spin it another. But you can't deny (not saying that you have) that Jesus puts himself and allows himself to be put above all men. When the gospels talk of apostles worshipping him they don't say that he stopped them from doing so. Now believing that the gospels were re-written is one thing and that's fine but when people claim that the gospels only view him as a normal man who is just another prophet and it was Paul that added to it they are wrong.

So wait... the quote I put up, when he's talking about other people being "one" with him and God, he's talking about them being physically part of them? Although that makes ZERO sense, that would totally trash the Trinity theory because if all other people are part of it then it no longer is a "trinity" and there are millions of entities within one, rather than just three. Bro, you're not a dumb guy... some things may not be obvious, but this certainly is. The simple fact that he's even talking TO GOD should ring a bell in your head.

Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus never claimed to be part of a trinity. Something as significant as that would surely have been explicitly stated, no?

You're right... he wasn't just a normal man... he was a prophet who performed miracles.... but guess what? He admitted that:

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

edit: I wanted to point this out again...

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone."  (Mark 10:18)

Is that one obvious enough? It's about as straight-forward as it can get.... Jesus admits he is not GOD.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 01:39:32 AM by J @ M @ L »
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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2007, 09:03:00 AM »
I was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."

And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:

John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.

That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.


Now the "obviously" is my only real issue. There is no "obviously" in the Bible when it comes to most things. If anything was obvious then they're wouldn't be so many rifts with in Christianty.

Yes he says the one who sent me is greater than me, but he also says if you have seen me you have seen the father. What all that means exactly is anyone's guess. You can spin it one way and I can spin it another. But you can't deny (not saying that you have) that Jesus puts himself and allows himself to be put above all men. When the gospels talk of apostles worshipping him they don't say that he stopped them from doing so. Now believing that the gospels were re-written is one thing and that's fine but when people claim that the gospels only view him as a normal man who is just another prophet and it was Paul that added to it they are wrong.

So wait... the quote I put up, when he's talking about other people being "one" with him and God, he's talking about them being physically part of them? Although that makes ZERO sense, that would totally trash the Trinity theory because if all other people are part of it then it no longer is a "trinity" and there are millions of entities within one, rather than just three. Bro, you're not a dumb guy... some things may not be obvious, but this certainly is. The simple fact that he's even talking TO GOD should ring a bell in your head.

Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus never claimed to be part of a trinity. Something as significant as that would surely have been explicitly stated, no?

You're right... he wasn't just a normal man... he was a prophet who performed miracles.... but guess what? He admitted that:

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

edit: I wanted to point this out again...

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone."  (Mark 10:18)

Is that one obvious enough? It's about as straight-forward as it can get.... Jesus admits he is not GOD.


And what about quotes like "If you have seen me you have seen the father", or "Before Abraham, I am". John makes it clear what Jesus was in the beginning, the Word. Did John make this up? Why wouldn't he just make everything else up? You're being difficult and with out being insulting, you're acting stupid. The whole thing is a riddle and men smarter than you and I have dedicated their whole lives trying to figure it out and they can't come to an agreement. I'm not trying to convince that the trinity exists, I don't know. What I do know is there are times where Jesus equates himself to God, and there are times where he doesn't. He clearly puts himself above other prophets with his slaves to son comparison analogy. You can't say he was just a prohet with any more authority than I can say the Quran was just a book written by some arab warlord. You aren't even acceoting hte other side. Yes, maybe they contradict each other but why do you ignore the side that opposes your view and accept the side that supports it as fact?

I don't have a clear stance on this issue, so how can you tell me I'm wrong?
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2007, 10:35:45 AM »
1. Jesus explicitly states he is not God, but nowhere does he explicitly state that he is.
2. I didn't say you were "wrong". You said a certain line was not obvious, so I posted up more that were.
3. I'm not simply accepting the side that supports my view, and ignoring the side that doesn't. So far I've been given 2 quotes that go against my argument, and I've provided the context for both to show why they do not refute my argument. On the other hand, I've provided I don't even know how many examples to prove my argument.

4. I already provided the context/explanation for "If you have seen me you have seen the father"; as for "Before Abraham, I am"... I'll point these out:


Jeremiah 1:4 "Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,
               5 ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’ ”


Proverbs 8:23 "Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water,
25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth;
26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world
27When he established the heavens, I was there.”



Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... "
Job 38:21 "You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!”




5. And since you brought up John... let's take a look at this:

HERE'S JESUS TELLING THE JEWS THAT JOHN = ELIAS (WHO IS SUPPOSED TO APPEAR BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH)

Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.


HERE THE JEWS ASK JOHN IF HE IS INDEED ELIAS:

John 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.


NOW MY QUESTION IS.... IS JESUS A LIAR? OR IS JOHN A LIAR? ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, ONE OF THEM HAS TO BE.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 05:01:53 PM by J @ M @ L »
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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2007, 02:17:44 PM »
1. Jesus explicitly states he is not God, but nowhere does he explicitly state that he is.
2. I didn't say you were "wrong". You said a certain line was not obvious, so I posted up more that were.
3. I'm not simply accepting the side that supports my view, and ignoring the side that doesn't. So far I've been given 2 quotes that go against my argument, and I've provided the context for both to show why they do not refute my argument. On the other hand, I've provided I don't even know how many examples to prove my argument.

4. I already provided the context/explanation for "If you have seen me you have seen the father"; as for "Before Abraham, I am"... I'll point these out:


Jeremiah 1:4 "Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,
               5 ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’ ”


Proverbs 8:23 "Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water,
25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth;
26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world
27When he established the heavens, I was there.”

^ that's Solomon speaking.... is he God too?


Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... "
Job 38:21 "You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!”




5. And since you brought up John... let's take a look at this:

HERE'S JESUS TELLING THE JEWS THAT JOHN = ELIAS (WHO IS SUPPOSED TO APPEAR BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH)

Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.


HERE THE JEWS ASK JOHN IF HE IS INDEED ELIAS:

John 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.


NOW MY QUESTION IS.... IS JESUS A LIAR? OR IS JOHN A LIAR? ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, ONE OF THEM HAS TO BE.


I'm going to answer your last question with what has been my stance from the beginning; I don't know.

I didn't mean the line by itself wasn't obvious. I meant the whole set of gospels comibined nothing is obvious. You ask an athiest and it's obvious that it's all allegory. You ask a catholic and it's obvious that it's historical documentation. That's what I meant. One lines mean nothing. I can pick a line out of a translation of the Quran that sayd "you may scourge her" with regards to your wiife. Could I say it's obvious that according to the Quran Allah disrespects women?

I never denied that there are passages in the gospel that imply Jesus was nothing more than a prophet, but there are also passages that imply otherwise, like Jesus allowing people to worship him. And the parable of the vineyard separating the son from the sllaves sent by the Father.

Seriously man, how stupid do you think people really are. If it were plain as day that Jesus never equated himself to anything higher thyan just another prophet that billions of people throughout thousands of years would just follow. And the millions of people that dedicated their lives to studying it over the past couple thousand years would just not be able to see it?
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2007, 03:22:18 PM »
I'm simply putting forth my argument. I have presented several examples where Jesus explicitly states that he is not God.... where it's obvious to anybody... yes the Gospels as a whole may not make it so obvious because as you say "there are other parts that IMPLY he was more than just a prophet". I agree... there are phrases that may lead people to assume that, and those verses have been brought up in the thread... however none of them make it obvious, none of them show Jesus explicitly stating it... if the Gospels are full of contradictions as a whole, and as a whole cannot make a significant point such as Jesus being God obvious... fine... I don't need anybody to show that the Gospels as a whole prove it, but ONE VERSE... I'm asking those opposing my argument to show me proof of Jesus saying "I am God".... just one phrase where it's made obvious... I provided several phrases where it's obvious that he isn't.

I'm not here to say "How can Christians be so dumb?"... this thread/discussion has nothing to do with me believing that millions of people are stupid... there is a topic at hand, and I'm making my case... I'm simply asking for some evidence from those opposing my view... nobody has been able to show me anything... all I hear is "well your examples may be obvious but there are other places that make it not so obvious"... as for people not being able to see it, there are Christians (Unitarians) who don't accept Jesus as God, and agree that he was a prophet like those before him. I'm not here trying to act like I'm the first person ever to discover this.... it has been discussed for over 1000 years...

edit: Here is another example of people who study this and dedicate their lives to this changing their minds...

LONDON: More then half of England’s Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to survey published today.

The poll of 31 of England’s 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ’s miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.

Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as “God’s supreme agent”. One declined to give a definite opinion.

The poll was carried out by London Weekend Television’s weekly religion show, Credo.

“DAILY NEWS” 25/6/84


I actually find it quite astonishing that the most important, central, and fundamental aspect of the religion is not even clear.... I mean your salvation depends on it... you must believe that Jesus must die as a God (since one man cannot carry the burden of the world's sins)... yet now they're not sure if Jesus was God... and for the 3 days and 3 nights that Jesus was "dead"... who was controlling the universe?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 03:53:48 PM by J @ M @ L »
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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2007, 03:55:08 PM »
Jesus wasn’t the son of God just because he didn’t have a father, he is the son of God because he is the only begotten son of God (son because God created him and sent him down from heaven)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We are not all sons of God it is only by faith in Christ Jesus that we become sons because of the blood of Jesus notice how we become sons of God not Begotten sons of god

Galatians 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, (27) for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
Which means that we only become sons of God BECAUSE WE HAVE PUT ON/HAVE BEEN CLOTHED IN CHRIST not because we are all the same as Christ

Why is it so hard to understand that Jesus wasn’t a full man (born of a man and woman) He was just the flesh side and God was the spirit. They called Jesus a man because that is what they could physically could see, a man Just because they didn’t call him God in that scripture doesn’t mean he isn’t. God was inside this flesh suit (Jesus) therefore making Jesus, God. The flesh side is why he cried ,prayed to god referred to him as father (and had to be circumcised). The spirit side (God) is the reason why he performed miracles, knew what people were thinking, disappeared out of peoples sight.  Every other prophet was born of Man and woman (and had flesh side and a human spirit) and were filled with the Holy spirit to carry out miracles . Jesus came from Heaven already and had God inside of him.

Read this maybe this will clear it up (remember Jesus = “the word”) and also remember this as u are reading john 1:1-14

john 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2)He was with God in the beginning.
(3)Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (4) In him was life, and that life was the light of men. (5)The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
(6)There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. (7)He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. (8)He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. (9)The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
(10)He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. (11)He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. (12)Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— (13)children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.


Why do you think that it took Jesus to redeem us of sin why did God just use Moses, Noah, Abraham, these were righteous men. God used Jesus because he needed a human body (to represent us) (because lamb, goats weren’t enough to redeem man of sin) in order to enter the world and redeem us. This body had to be clean (free of sin ) and that was only possible by God entering a man. A full man (born of man and woman) couldn’t do it by himself because man is born a sinner (he is bound to sin). God needed a body that he could control from birth.

You also notice how it says in John 1:12 god has given the right to become children of God when you believe in his name (have faith in him)

if you look at John 10:30 Jesus calls them “Gods” but the he says

(36) what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world

Jesus wasn’t like the other men because it says God set him apart as his very own

John 17:21 has no relevance in this, this scripture is completely different here he is talking about unity, like the father and him are unified. In this scripture he is just talking about unity, its doesn prove that God wasn’t in Jesus.

ok now on to john10:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

people in those days would of never of meant “My Lord and MY God” to mean “oh MY God” this is disallowed because this is using the Lords name in vain. Even I never say “oh my God”

Deuteronomy 5:11 You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain

It said Thomas "answered and said unto him" Jesus, said to him “MY lord AND My God”

Thomas called him "My Lord" because he has done it before, he called Jesus "God" because Jesus had revealed to Him earlier that HE was God I will prove both of these in one passage

John 14:5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
(6)Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (7)If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
(8)Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
(9) Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (10) Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, LIVING IN ME, who is doing his work. (11)Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

Can you see Jesus said  he is in the father and the father is in him and that if you have see Jesus you have seen the father, the father is LITERALLY in him

with the John 5:7 scripture, The reason why they put that bit in there (God the Word and the Holy ghost all of them are one) is because it makes sense and it is based on what is written in 1john 5:8 the spirit water and the blood

The spirit = God because  john  4:24 says God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

The water = Jesus which = the word (just read john 1-14 again). How do I know the water equals Jesus because

John 4:9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.)
10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
11"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?"
13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Jesus asks the Samaritan woman for a drink (literally) the woman says he is a jew and shes is only a Samaritan. The “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water”

Blood = holy spirit/ghost.

Why? because of the bible priciple the spirit is the life and the life is in the blood

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[a] and they are life.

So the spirit gives life

In Leviticus 17:11

For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

Genesis 9:6 Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

Now 1 John 5:6 makes more sense when it talks about Jesus

(6)This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

He did not come by water only (the word) but by water and blood (spirit). If it was talking about water and blood literally why would it need to tell us that he did not come by water only but by water and blood.
And it is the spirit who testifies this the spirit meaning God. If it was talking about Jesus’ own spirit it wouldn’t of needed to say “the spirit”

And John scripture isn’t the only scripture that confirms the trinity Matthew 28:19 (which I have quoted before) does

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Realise how Jesus said “NAME” of the father son and holy spirit and not “NAMES” wouldn’t it be blasphemous for Jesus to include him and the holy spirit if they all weren’t one

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'


John 14:25-26 All this I have spoken while still with you. (26)But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

As for john 11:41 & john 5:30 like I said before Jesus had a flesh side (human side) and because of that he had to pray to God and: praise him, ask him for things. Remember God wasn’t just in him, god is in heaven also. Power from God was given to his flesh so that he was able to perform miracles,

As for Matthew 28:18 I really don’t see your point. God gave him Jesus power so what? God gave him the flesh side power to do miracles when God entered him because God is the power. If God wasn’t in Jesus then he couldn’t of done his miracles. I think that your trying to imply that Jesus was a mere man who was given power by God like Moses but no because he had the power to being with. Jesus was saying that God inside of him is giving his flesh side power.
 

Facez

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2007, 03:57:40 PM »
LOL Hey JAMAL  Proverbs 8:25 is what happens when you take scriptures out of context. You need to read the whole thing

In Proverbs 8 David is not talking about himself. he has devoted the whole “proverbs 8” passage to wisdom. He anthromorphizes it and makes it seem like a woman


 Proverbs 8:1-25

Wisdom's Call

1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 On the heights along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gates leading into the city,
at the entrances, she cries aloud:
4 "To you, O men, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
5 You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, gain understanding.
6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.
7 My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.
8 All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.
9 To the discerning all of them are right;
they are faultless to those who have knowledge.
10 Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,
11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
12 "I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have understanding and power.
15 By me kings reign
and rulers make laws that are just;
16 by me princes govern,
and all nobles who rule on earth.
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,


i agree with what shallow wrote in his last pargraph
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2007, 05:01:18 PM »
1. You say he is the son of God, then turn around and say that he is God. Can I be myself and at the same time be my father? It's nonsense.

2. As for his miracles, Jesus admits that of his own he can do nothing and that he does what he does through the power of God. That doesn't make him God.
descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

3. In regards to Jesus redeeming us of sin: Muslims don't believe that we're all guilty of sin for what Adam & Eve did. Just like when your grandpa commits a murder, you can't go to jail for it... we don't believe that Jesus died for our sins.... nor do we believe that God would kill his own son (or himself?lol) for what Adam & Eve did. If you want to get into other discussions we can, but for now let's stick to Jesus = God.

4. In regards to John 10:36

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus is telling them that they were told they're Gods so why are they giving him shit for referring to himself as the Son of God.... NOT GOD. Just because God set him apart doesn't mean Jesus is God. Look at your wording: "God set him apart". You're referring to 2 separate entities.


5. John 17:21 does have relevance... Jesus says the same thing about the father being in him and him being in the father... but as soon as you realize that he makes the same statement about "them" being one as him and God are one... you dismiss it and say "well this time he's talking about unity, but the other times he's referring to him and God being one entity"... stop picking and choosing, he's saying the exact same thing... so either everyone is part of this entity or nobody is.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


6. Now you choose to say that in John 14:11 he meant it literally... when Jesus himself admits that (John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.")... God sent him, he could've said God is inside of me and it is the non-flesh part of me that's doing this... look:
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know

- he is a MAN.
- approved of God
- miracles and wonders and signs, which GOD DID BY HIM.
God used Jesus as a tool... this is what Jesus meant by him and God having the same purpose, him and God being one, God being in him,...Jesus was not God.


7.   1 John 5:7   WAS TAKEN OUT OF THE BIBLE AS A FABRICATION, A LIE, BULLSHIT, WHATEVER YOU WANNA CALL IT

8.  Matthew 28:19  doesn't show Jesus claiming to be God. The verse just shows the author pointing out that all three are to be mentioned during the baptism... that's because before baptism was only in Christ/Jesus (Galatians 3:27, 1 Corinthians 1:13, Acts 8:16, 19:5)

9. As for the "Before Abraham, I am" and related quotes, I already addressed that with other examples of prophets claiming to have "been" before.

10. God giving Jesus powers doesn't make Jesus God.

- Jesus admitted that he doesn't know when the Day of Judgment is, and that ONLY GOD KNOWS. I mean if God were inside him, wouldn't he know?
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

- God is All-Knowing. If Jesus were God, wouldn't he know when figs are in season, instead of getting pissed off when there are no figs on the tree? LOL
Mark 11:12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

- His spirit GREW, and he GREW wiser. If the spirit of God was within him from the start as you say, then are you claiming that God is not perfect, since he had room to grow?
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.


11. As for your last post... wisdom = the "word".
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 05:23:16 PM by J @ M @ L »
my throat hurts, its hard to swallow, and my body feels like i got a serious ass beating.

LOL @ this fudgepacker
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2007, 05:04:43 PM »
i agree with what shallow wrote in his last pargraph

And here is my response to Shallow's last paragraph:

I'm not here to say "How can Christians be so dumb?"... this thread/discussion has nothing to do with me believing that millions of people are stupid... there is a topic at hand, and I'm making my case... I'm simply asking for some evidence from those opposing my view... nobody has been able to show me anything... all I hear is "well your examples may be obvious but there are other places that make it not so obvious"... as for people not being able to see it, there are Christians (Unitarians) who don't accept Jesus as God, and agree that he was a prophet like those before him. I'm not here trying to act like I'm the first person ever to discover this.... it has been discussed for over 1000 years...

edit: Here is another example of people who study this and dedicate their lives to this changing their minds...

LONDON: More then half of England’s Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to survey published today.

The poll of 31 of England’s 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ’s miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.

Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as “God’s supreme agent”. One declined to give a definite opinion.

The poll was carried out by London Weekend Television’s weekly religion show, Credo.

“DAILY NEWS” 25/6/84


I actually find it quite astonishing that the most important, central, and fundamental aspect of the religion is not even clear.... I mean your salvation depends on it... you must believe that Jesus must die as a God (since one man cannot carry the burden of the world's sins)... yet now they're not sure if Jesus was God... and for the 3 days and 3 nights that Jesus was "dead"... who was controlling the universe?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not pulling this out of my ass... this has been discussed for over 1000 years... and even amongst Christians like yourself, people are coming to the conclusion that Jesus was not God. It is common for there to be minor differences within a religion... but something this significant? The central aspect of the religion?
my throat hurts, its hard to swallow, and my body feels like i got a serious ass beating.

LOL @ this fudgepacker
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2007, 05:06:36 PM »
And let me ask you this, Facez:

Do you believe the Bible has mistakes?
Do you believe the Bible contradicts itself?
If not, then why are there revised versions coming out every several years where they decide to take certain verses out of the Bible, and consider them fabrications?

And, the same thing I've been asking for from the beginning: Show me 1 verse in the entire Bible... just 1 line... where  JESUS SAYS "I AM GOD". I can show you plenty where he says he isn't... I ask for one where he says he is...
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 05:15:47 PM by J @ M @ L »
my throat hurts, its hard to swallow, and my body feels like i got a serious ass beating.

LOL @ this fudgepacker
 

Shallow

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2007, 09:46:56 PM »
"Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing My day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet 50 years old," they said to Him, "and you have seen Abraham?" "I tell you the truth," Jesus announced, "before Abraham was, I AM!"

That's a direct reference to how God described himself in the old testament and Jesus says it the same way.


Just because that slave trading murderous fuck Solomon said similar things doesn't change what Jesus said right there.


Would just a prophet says this

60Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 61But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
      Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[f] the Son of the Blessed One?"

 62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

 63The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"


And this is all from the dirty English version. If you could read Greek like I can there are other parts that aren't as unclear when it comes to claiming a higher power. It just gets lost in the translation.