Author Topic: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity  (Read 645 times)

7even

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Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« on: June 15, 2007, 02:57:56 PM »
I'm going to give my take on this later, when I'm more in the mood of posting something longer, lol




We should have a separate thread about the Trinity... since this thread is about something totally different, but just to point something out really quick...


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one".  (Mark 12:29)

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone."  (Mark 10:18)

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Shallow

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2007, 03:41:58 PM »
I don't usually discuss areas like this because it relies too much on the unknown, but the way I choose to see it is like this; God the father isn't like a man in heaven calling shots. It's more like an energy that created the universe and still resides all around us. The son, Jesus in this case, would be the result of the energy transporting itself directly into a vessel and speaking, giving direct orders untarnished by the weakness of man, and the holy spirit would be the energy that lives inside of us that we look to for guidance. So I guess I see it like The father created us, the son told us how to live and the spirit reminds us how to live when we go astray. Of course we can chose to ignore it and continue to defy what we know is right. Now I don't think you have to take it as priests tell you or believe in conventional religion. A Jesus like figure could have come 1000 times or 1 time. I don't know. I think it's more imortant to obey the message than it is to believe in the messenger or the creator of the message. That's just how I see it.
 

Facez

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2007, 03:45:06 PM »
please read scriptures in context.

Jamal you have taken the Mark 12:29 scripture out of context, look at what happens when i add chapter 28 at the beginning of it

Mark 12:28-29 (28) One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
(29)"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one

they asked Jesus all of all the commandments which is the most important Jesus quoted from Deuteronomy 6:4 which says....

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

if you don't believe me check it for youself. you see what happens when scriptures are taken out of context

next scripture Mark 10:18. lets look at Mark 10:17-19

Mark 10:17-19 (17)As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
 (18)"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. (19)You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother."

Jesus said that because the man who came up and asked him that question thought that Jesus was a mere man because he called him a "good Teacher" so Jesus was just saying God is good (God is the source) trust in God. he didn't want to just teach the man and send him on his way he wanted to let the man no/remind him not to rely on Jewish teachers (who are called good) but rely on God that is why Jesus told the man (who claimed to be good by keeping all of the commandments) to sell all his possesions (and trust in God who is good/the source). you see the man thought he was good aswell because he kept all of the commandments and Jesus was saying don't trust what you can see (a good teacher) but trust on what you cant see (the word that God spoke through Jesus, which was good)
 

Primo

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2007, 03:48:23 PM »
there is no trinity. There is no mention in the original texts of a trinity.
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2007, 03:52:10 PM »
^ LOL you didn't refute anything...

He said "our God"... if I were to make a statement to one of my classmates that included "our teacher said..."  , could that in any logical way imply that I am the teacher? LOL.

Let me ask you a simple question... common sense and logic...  if A>B, can A=B? Because that's what you would imply if you were to say that Jesus = God after looking at
John 14:28 - "My father is greater than I"
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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2007, 03:53:14 PM »
there is no trinity. There is no mention in the original texts of a trinity.

Thank you.

Something as important as the trinity would certainly have been mentioned or explained. Not once... I emphasize, not once at all, in the entire bible did Jesus say "I am God" or "Worship me".
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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2007, 03:58:45 PM »


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one".  (Mark 12:29)

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone."  (Mark 10:18)



Jamal had an excellent quote. 

Religion has always been one.  Whatever name that God was called, whether it be Allah, the Creator, the Universal Energy, Universal Love. the Highest Power.... Allah has been called many names.  Religion has always been worshipping God and doing good deeds.  This is what all the Prophets known and unknown taught.

^^This is also what Jesus taught.  Jesus was a human being.  Just like some humans like Micheal Jordan, excell in sports, or some people excell in tehnology like Bill Gates, Allah has also selected certain people to be the leaders and teachers in religious aspects of life; these are the Prophets.  Jesus was a Prophet, like Moses, Muhammad, and 400,000 or so others who have been sent to all nations throughout time.

As far as the Trinity is concerned.  There are two principal figures regarding the trinity.  Paul and Constantine.  We all know that Paul was actually a ruthless warlord who persecuted the origional Christians.  Yet, on day that all changed, and he became a conqueror for form of Christianity that more closely resembled the polytheistic practices of his culture.  Some hundred years after Jesus, he was riding on a horse to Damascus when he claims he had a vision that Jesus had been reserrected and that God was three, the father, son, and Holy Ghost.

Next point is about Constantine.  Who lived around 300AD.  There were actually many more books in the origional Gospels, like the book of Barnibus for example, the book of Barnibus is totally monothestic and does not support the trinity.  There were a wide variety of schools of thought amongst the followers of Jesus, and many were monotheistic and followed Jesus' origional teachings that he was a human worshipping a higher power (God).   However, Constantine wanted to consolidate his empire, so he condensed and altered the Bible many times over, in an effort to support the Trinity, and he killed anybody who opposed the trinity.
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Shallow

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2007, 07:29:05 AM »
^ LOL you didn't refute anything...

He said "our God"... if I were to make a statement to one of my classmates that included "our teacher said..."  , could that in any logical way imply that I am the teacher? LOL.

Let me ask you a simple question... common sense and logic...  if A>B, can A=B? Because that's what you would imply if you were to say that Jesus = God after looking at
John 14:28 - "My father is greater than I"



Well if you read John 14 in it's entirety you would see it's not that simple.

John 14

 1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."

 5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

 8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

 9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

 22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

 23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

 25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

 28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
      "Come now; let us leave.

Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that. John starts out in John 1 by saying that Jesus was in the beginning with God. He was the Word of God and he came to Earth. You could look at it like The Father would be the thought, while the son is the word, and the spirit is an extension of the word placed inside of us. We don't know what God thinks but we know what he said or what we were/are told.

There is no easy answer to this. Trying to make claims one way or another is a waste of time because they can be refuted by anyone that wants to figure out a way to refute them. Why even worry about his aspect? Honestly speaking if God were to refuse people who obeyed his words and loved his message because they worshipped the wrong way then I'd rather not be accepted.

I opposed the Quran because I found various teachings immoral. The same reason I oppose the letters of Paul. Every religion is equally illogical. I don't care to find realistic logic. Why try and find logic in the unknown? I stick what I can understand and leave what I cannot understand alone.
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2007, 08:55:33 AM »
Jamal, Are you serious  Jesus was quoting the scripture in Deuteronomy 6:4 the people asked him what is the greatest commandment in the bible (Jewish bible) so Jesus obviously quoted exactly what it said why should he change what the scripture says the scripture blatantly  says in Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy 6:4 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one

what was Jesus supposed to say

Hear, o Israel, I the Lord, I am one,

The Jewish leaders would of said “what that scripture is not in our bible” and then tried to kill him for blasphemy.

Jesus was God look at this scripture (this is what shallow was taliking about)

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

there is no trinity. There is no mention in the original texts of a trinity.

The word "trinity" isn’t found in the bible, so what, Trinity was the name given to define the relationship between Jesus, God and the holy spirit,There are scriptures that showed us how Jesus, God and the holy spirit were one here are a few

John 10:30 Jesus said I am in the father and the father is in me

This shows that the father is in Jesus

Matthew 28:19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Why would Jesus tell people to baptise in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit. Why didn’t he just say baptise them in the name of God if the holy spirit and Jesus weren’t one

John 20:22 (22) And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
In all other scripture the holy spirit comes down from heaven yet Jesus was able to breath the holy spirit and they received. Only God can do that.

The concept of God being a trinity might be hard to understand so let me give you another example of a trinity. Man is also a Trinity man is made up of 3 parts body spirit and soul but we are still one person

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul

there is no trinity. There is no mention in the original texts of a trinity.

Thank you.

Something as important as the trinity would certainly have been mentioned or explained. Not once... I emphasize, not once at all, in the entire bible did Jesus say "I am God" or "Worship me".

Jamal you cant find where it says I am god and where Jesus but look

Jesus is God

John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"

“ I am” is what God called himself in Exodus 3:14

Exodus 3:14 - "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

In john 20:28-29 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
(29) Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Jesus doesn’t say he is God but he doesn’t Thomas him and say not Thomas I am not God.

John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Worship

Matthew 28:8-10 (8)So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. (9)Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. (10)Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" (37)Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." (38)And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

The bible says worship the lord and only but the disciples were worshipping him

 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2007, 10:26:47 PM »
Throughout the Bible we see Jesus referring to God as "my Father", but he also tells the people that God is "your Father". If you guys take it literally and say that Jesus is the son of God, then take it literally for everyone else as well... we're all children of God... point is, Jesus did not literally mean that "God is my daddy and Mary is my mommy". Further, if you want to take the "Son of God" thing literally... throughout the Bible you'll see how many "sons" God really has then....

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn (ISRAEL IS GOD'S FIRST SON! LOL)

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. (WAIT, NOW EPHRAIM IS HIS FIRSTBORN SON... if we take this literally, the only question would be: wtf is going on?!)

The reason: Back then the Jews called any righteous person a "son of God".


One thing that should be clear to even you is that "the father" = God. So if Jesus admits that he's not the father, he's also admitting that he's not God:

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

And then your Holy Bible says....
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know (JESUS IS A MAN APPROVED OF GOD... THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT GOD)


Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
          5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
          6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

(LOL okay now it just gets funny... you're told "how can any man be compared with God, any man born of a woman is not even pure enough to be compared with God, if even the stars dim in comparison to God, man ain't nothing but a fucking worm"... "and the son of man is a worm".... wait, isn't Jesus explicitly called "the son of man" in the new testament dozens of times? LOL)

But it get's better...

Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
          22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
(We can even ignore the ridiculous thought of God getting circumsized... but now God made Mary impure? refer back to Job 25:4 right above.... is that just another contradiction in the Bible or is Jesus not God? LOL)



SHALLOW: You didn't prove anything. The most you're able to prove is that the Bible is contradicting itself, which I'll agree with. But Jesus still explicitly states that "My father is greater than I".  It's logic: if A>B, A cannot in any way = B!

Also, I'm glad you pointed out John 14:24 for us - "He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.".... where Jesus once again admits that he is not God.

Now let's look further...

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(He admits that he can't do shit without God. Again, he's not God. God sent him)


Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
(When something is given to you, that means it wasn't yours before that... Jesus had no power of his own until it was given to him... who gave it to him? GOD!)








Facez
You left out the context of John 10:30 (I and my Father are one):

23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God

- Look at what he's talking about, he's saying that he and God are one in purpose, not they're the same person.
- He even backs this by telling the Jews who are trying to pick a fight with him that God called them "gods", Moses was called God to Pharoah, etc.... don't pick and choose by taking it literally for Jesus... Moses is God too then, all the Jewish people are Gods, and AlmightyBlackman is God too.
- To show you what I mean:

John17: 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

He’s talking about the disciples, the people, etc. all being “one”… IN PURPOSE!.. just as Jesus and God are ONE IN PURPOSE.



As for John 20:28, here’s the context:

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

- Thomas said “My Lord and my God” as an exclamation the way we say “OH MY GOD”  when we see something we can’t believe,,, he didn’t say “Jesus, you’re God”, the same way we don’t consider something extraordinary that makes us respond in that way as God.  In 20:31 this is affirmed because would we not have read then that “ye might believe that Jesus is GOD”?




Let me ask you guys this... we all agree that God is uncreated and eternal... and he CREATED Jesus, he brought Jesus into existence... how can Jesus be God? Jesus is created, while God is uncreated... although God is omniscient, it is just as impossible to created an uncreated as it is to create a three-sided square.... logic limits omnipotence. God can't make more Gods.... if you think he can and has, then Christians are by definition polytheists.


If Jesus is God simply because he had no father (and you guys assume that God must therefore be his father), then wouldn't Adam be a "greater" God since he didn't have a father nor mother? LOL. Or better yet:

Hebrews 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Why don't Christians worship Melchisedec? He has all the qualities of God... no father, no mother, no descent, no begnning or end... come on guys, he's obviously greater than Jesus.


And who was Jesus praying to when he was on the cross, or praying to at any time? Himself? No... he prayed to GOD just like all the other times:

John 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
("that they may believe that thou hast sent me"... remember: John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm going to help you guys out... there's ONLY ONE VERSE in the entire Bible that clearly outlines the Trinity (Facez, I'm surprised you didn't bring it up):

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Oh yeah, it’s because all recent versions of the Bible, such as the Revised Standard Version the New Revised Standard Version, the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible, the Phillips Modern English Bible ...etc. have all thrown it out as a FABRICATION! LOL!

Case closed.




« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 11:15:03 PM by J @ M @ L »
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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2007, 12:50:49 AM »
im sorry,  but can sum1 explain to this youngsta bout trinity???
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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2007, 08:19:50 AM »

SHALLOW: You didn't prove anything. The most you're able to prove is that the Bible is contradicting itself, which I'll agree with. But Jesus still explicitly states that "My father is greater than I".  It's logic: if A>B, A cannot in any way = B!

Also, I'm glad you pointed out John 14:24 for us - "He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.".... where Jesus once again admits that he is not God.

Now let's look further...

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(He admits that he can't do shit without God. Again, he's not God. God sent him)


Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
(When something is given to you, that means it wasn't yours before that... Jesus had no power of his own until it was given to him... who gave it to him? GOD!)


What was I trying to prove? That equation to God is mentioned in the Gospels. I never subordination to God wasn't mentioned. I  just said;

"There is no easy answer to this. Trying to make claims one way or another is a waste of time because they can be refuted by anyone that wants to figure out a way to refute them. Why even worry about his aspect? Honestly speaking if God were to refuse people who obeyed his words and loved his message because they worshipped the wrong way then I'd rather not be accepted."


Now tell me what I was trying to prove.


Maybe the book is contradictory, maybe the apostles couldn't grasp what Jesus was saying, maybe they chose to change it, maybe much is lost in the translation from Greek, maybe you are interpreting it wrong. Here is the thing; as a christian I believe Jesus was perfect. I don't believe the apostles were, or that the Bible is. If I find something wrong in the Bible (I've yet to find something morally wrong with Jesus' teachings.) I can dismiss it because it's just a book. But when I find something wrong with the perfect Quran, I dismiss the whole religion because apparently God wrote that book. And I can't believe God wants my wife to be subordinate to me (which is why I also dismiss St. Paul).
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2007, 12:18:35 PM »
I was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."

And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:

John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.

That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.
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Shallow

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2007, 06:51:25 PM »
I was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."

And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:

John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.

That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.


Now the "obviously" is my only real issue. There is no "obviously" in the Bible when it comes to most things. If anything was obvious then they're wouldn't be so many rifts with in Christianty.

Yes he says the one who sent me is greater than me, but he also says if you have seen me you have seen the father. What all that means exactly is anyone's guess. You can spin it one way and I can spin it another. But you can't deny (not saying that you have) that Jesus puts himself and allows himself to be put above all men. When the gospels talk of apostles worshipping him they don't say that he stopped them from doing so. Now believing that the gospels were re-written is one thing and that's fine but when people claim that the gospels only view him as a normal man who is just another prophet and it was Paul that added to it they are wrong.
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2007, 11:40:04 PM »
I was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."

And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:

John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.

That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.


Now the "obviously" is my only real issue. There is no "obviously" in the Bible when it comes to most things. If anything was obvious then they're wouldn't be so many rifts with in Christianty.

Yes he says the one who sent me is greater than me, but he also says if you have seen me you have seen the father. What all that means exactly is anyone's guess. You can spin it one way and I can spin it another. But you can't deny (not saying that you have) that Jesus puts himself and allows himself to be put above all men. When the gospels talk of apostles worshipping him they don't say that he stopped them from doing so. Now believing that the gospels were re-written is one thing and that's fine but when people claim that the gospels only view him as a normal man who is just another prophet and it was Paul that added to it they are wrong.

So wait... the quote I put up, when he's talking about other people being "one" with him and God, he's talking about them being physically part of them? Although that makes ZERO sense, that would totally trash the Trinity theory because if all other people are part of it then it no longer is a "trinity" and there are millions of entities within one, rather than just three. Bro, you're not a dumb guy... some things may not be obvious, but this certainly is. The simple fact that he's even talking TO GOD should ring a bell in your head.

Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus never claimed to be part of a trinity. Something as significant as that would surely have been explicitly stated, no?

You're right... he wasn't just a normal man... he was a prophet who performed miracles.... but guess what? He admitted that:

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

edit: I wanted to point this out again...

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone."  (Mark 10:18)

Is that one obvious enough? It's about as straight-forward as it can get.... Jesus admits he is not GOD.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 01:39:32 AM by J @ M @ L »
my throat hurts, its hard to swallow, and my body feels like i got a serious ass beating.

LOL @ this fudgepacker