Author Topic: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity  (Read 466 times)

J @ M @ L

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2007, 12:10:35 PM »
I have already shown others who have made similar references to themselves (as in the first quote), so just because Jesus said it, doesn't mean we can attribute it differently to him than everybody else. You're right... it doesn't change what Jesus said, but it also doesn't change what the others said.

As for the second quote, that doesn't mean he's God.... he said the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One... Jesus sitting at the right hand of God... if A sits next to B, A does not equal B.
 
I've made my case, and you guys have made yours. This is what it pretty much came down to:
- I provide verses that explicitly show Jesus claiming he is not God, that he is a man who gets his powers from God, etc.:

"He that is sent, is not greater than He that sent Him" (John 13:16)

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one".  (Mark 12:29)

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone."  (Mark 10:18)

"He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." (John 14:24)

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30)

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)

"My father is greater than I" (John 14:28)

- You guys have provided (and admitted) that there are other verses where it's "not so clear" whether he is or isn't God... and haven't refuted the examples I brought forth

I wasn't expecting anybody to change their whole outlook on this... simply wanted to point a few things out... and this topic is pretty much exhausted now... it was a good discussion though... if anyone can show me, I would still like to see an example of Jesus saying "I am God"---- of course that will be impossible because Jesus never said that.. instead he cried out to God, and it's nonsense for God to "foresake himself"---- anyways, I'm done here. Peace.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 12:13:25 PM by J @ M @ L »
my throat hurts, its hard to swallow, and my body feels like i got a serious ass beating.

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Shallow

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2007, 06:42:10 PM »
All that being said you have to remember that the English versions aren't translated properly. Your example for the crying out on the cross is a perfect example. In the original Greek texts and every current Greek texts I've come across the actual quote of "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" is used as well as the Greek translation which translates to English as My God why have you forsaken me. It's a direct quote from a pslam sending a message. The people around Jesus even wonder whether he is summoning something. There are subtleties in the Greek language that the English language cannot grasp (and vice verse ofcourse), And even more so there are subtleties in the Aramaic language the Greek language cannot grasp. What was really said and meant by Jesus can never really fully be understood, and certainly not if read in English. It's like trying to appreciate and understand the talent of Shakespeare when reading a translation in chinese, or seeing what was really so special about Crime and Punishment. The content can be translated but a lot will be lost.


P.S. bringing your AB logic into this is a bit absurd. Explain to me how God came into existence in a logical way then we'll debate logic. He just is and always was right? Tell that to an athiest. If Jesus is the literal word of God then can the word speak with out the brain, mouth, lips and tongue? Is any word spoken by anyone able to speak on it's own. Could the father be the messenger and the son be the message? Is that possible? If so, can the message exist and be presented with out the messenger to send it? The answer is no. But you can have a message with you from the beginning and wait to send it.

 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2007, 08:07:51 PM »
Whoa 2 weeks, Sorry I was so late with this reply I’ve been busy. I thought drop in and  would reply to Jamal’s last statement,

Ok here we go, that John 13:6-17 (scripture that you sated) was taken out of context Jesus was referring to his disciples as servants

John 13:6-17 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?" (7)Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand." (8)"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet."
Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me." (9)"Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!"
(10) Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." (11) For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.
12When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. (13)"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. (14)Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. (15) I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. (16) I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. (17)Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

As for the Mark 12:29: like I said before Jesus was quoting the Deuteronomy scripture, I don’t see why he should of changed it. They asked him what is the greatest commandment and he repeated what was written. They are various other verses were Jesus quotes scripture exactly how it is written.

Now to answer your john 14 statements we have to go back to John 12 and work our way to john 14

A lot of people weren’t believing that Jesus was God because they only saw the flesh so Jesus said in john 12:44-46

(44)Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. (45) When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. (46)I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness

Ok now onto john 14 (right before Jesus made the john 24 statement). Doesn’t this scripture below prove to you that Jesus is God

John 14:5-10 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (7) If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well . From now on, you do know him and have seen him".
8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (10)Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work .

This Is why he had to say what he said in John 14:24 that the father is greater than him because even though the father was living in him (and guiding him), Jesus was still flesh on the outside (that why he could cry, needed to pray and fast) but the father doesn’t have a flesh side. For e.g. a computer, a computer is a great thing and through it I can do great things (type, communicate with people, possibly affect the world) but the computer has disadvantages, it can: break down, slow down, etc and without me the computer can not do anything/much because I am greater than the computer (I can think for myself, have free will, i can fix the computer etc). so it is correct to say that everything this computer is doing/does is operated by me. It is carrying out my commands and from what I am able to do with it, the people that I am communicating with get to know me. likewise Jesus is the flesh (computer) which the God (the operator) uses/used to do his will on earth. The reason why God needed Jesus was because he needed a human body to save us humans from sin and death. Jesus said the father was greater than him because Jesus was the flesh side (human side)

To answer the john 5:30 (which I sought of answered in my previous statement) u have to look at john 5:16 first to get a better understanding of why he said what he said.

John 5:16-19 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. (17)Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." (18)For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (19)Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

The Jews who were accusing him only saw a man who was claiming to be God, so Jesus has to let them know that the authority he (his flesh, what they could see) had come from God (and that is why he could make such a claim).

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

This scripture shows that it is only God that lives within him that does his work Because Jesus was part human (flesh) he had a will but his flesh side chose to do the will of God and because Jesus follow. In Galatians it says that Jesus was made like a man and also it says the “word became flesh” in the book of John . So he had emotions and a will (because that is what man has) but because the God was in him, strengthening him he chose not to do his own will a chose Gods. Because we are sinful we could not carry out Gods will and that is why Jesus had to come, to break the power of sin.

If we look at the 43 chapter it says:

John 5:43-44 (43)I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. (44)How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God.

Jesus came in the name of the father. When you come in the name of someone, you represent them. He also said they could obtain praise if you accept him because he comes in the father name.

To answer your Matthew 28 statement

Matthew 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. (17)When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. (18)Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (19) Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (20) and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

First of all it says They “worshipped” Jesus. Hmmm why would the disciples worship Jesus, doesn’t the law of Moses say

Worship the lord your God and him only”.

Jesus also says in John 4:23

23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

So Gods worshippers should worship him but why are they worshipping Jesus, jesus must be God . They are many other people in the four gospels who worshipped Jesus.

Any way It says they worshipped him  “but some doubted”, (because Jesus has just been raised from the dead which is a miraculous thing and also Jesus warned them before he died about false prophets appearing in the future claiming to be him). They doubted because Jesus all they saw was the flesh. Jesus didn’t want the disciples to acknowledge the flesh, he wanted them to acknowledge God (within him). Jesus was basically saying it is  The father (God) had given this flesh that they were seeing authority over  heaven and earth he proved to them that he was God and had authority by telling them to go out and baptise people in the name of the father  the son and the holy spirit (verse 19) and also by the statement he made in the gospel of Mark 16:15 (which is basically an extension of what happened)

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 He proved to them that it he had come back by ascending into heaven also

And by promising to send the holy spirit which they did receive.

(49)I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

Further proof that Jesus was God.

Jesus was the word.

John11 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It says the “word was God” Now look at verse 14

John 1:14 The Word  became flesh and made his dwelling among us . We have seen his glory , the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father , full of grace and truth.

Does it say or does it not say the word became flesh and dwelt among us. So Jesus was the word and verse one says the “word was God”. it also says the one and only that came from the father.

John 1:2-5 He was with God in the beginning. (3)Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (4)In him was life, and that life was the light of men. (5)The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Jesus (the word) was the light/all things were made by him

John1:9-10 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him

So it says Jesus (the word) was light, it also says that the world was made through him. it also says in John 1:4 in him was life

Look at what Jesus said about himself

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 9:5 "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I Am

Jesus called himself “I am” everyone knows that God called himself I am

Exodus 3:14  I AM THAT I AM

if you translate what God said to Greek it reads “Ego eimi ho no.”

This statement shows the divinity of God it meant that God Just “is” he has no beginning or no end

Look at what Jesus says in John 8:56-58

John 8:56-58 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." 57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

As u are reading this u probably think that Jesus meant

“Before Abraham I was”   (which is past tense) no! Jesus didn’t say that; he said before Abraham “I am”. “I am” in Greek is “Ego Eimi“. “Ego Eimi” is Present Tense. So Jesus was saying before Abraham “he is” Why would Jesus say that?

That is why it says in the next chapter (chapter 59)

John 8:59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

The Jews picked up stones to stone him because he called himself God.
 
Jesus, Where is your father?

John 8:19 Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

God gives living water so does Jesus

in the old Testament in Jeremiah says in Jeremiah 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the LORD, the spring of living water

so God (who is spirit) is the spring of living water

Ok in John 4:10-14 Jesus meets a woman at a well and asks her for a drink she wonders why so this is what he says.

John 4:10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
(11)"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? (12)Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?" (13)Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, (14)but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

So God is living water but wait Jesus says whoever drinks the water he gives them will never thirst because Jesus is offering the living water

The way Jesus spoke

When Jesus spoke he usually started of with verily verily I say unto” or “I said this” or “do this.” The other prophets in the bible start their sentences of with “the lord said this” “the lord has told me to tell you this” " the lord commanded" etc Jesus never said “the lord commanded/told be to tell you this” he just said "i tell you now" "i give you"

in conclusion

What I have been trying to say from the beginning is that Jesus was the Word that became flesh. When the angel Gabriel came to Mary and told her that she was going to have a child the angel gave her the “word” and she received it  because she said so be it that word become flesh inside of her. The flesh  had to live as a human being (do everything that a human being dies until he was crucified. Because. God was inside of him he was able to go his whole life without sinning (which no one else has done). Why do you think it took Jesus to redeem us of our sins? couldn’t Moses of done it, Joshua, Jacob, Jeremiah? Why Jesus? Why was Jesus so special? Because God had to create a body with his word that was born on earth (like a regular Man) that he could enter and prevent from sinning so that this body could be the perfect & sinless sacrifice for us. God couldn’t of chosen a regular man even David and Moses sinned and they had the holy spirit.

P.S. I liked your statement shallow
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 08:30:29 PM by Facez »