Author Topic: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity  (Read 646 times)

Shallow

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2007, 09:03:00 AM »
I was talking about this when referring to the point you're trying to prove: "Jesus equates himself to the father here and you can't deny that."

And I just pointed out that he claims to be the same in purpose as God, not that he is God... I provided an example to show this:

John17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

He obviously doesn't mean that He, God, and all the disciples and people are part of ONE ENTITY... they're ONE IN PURPOSE.

That's all I was getting at.... as far as your views towards the religion are concerned, they make sense and I respect them... and I agree... there isn't anything wrong with Jesus' teachings... my whole argument is that Jesus never claimed to be God.


Now the "obviously" is my only real issue. There is no "obviously" in the Bible when it comes to most things. If anything was obvious then they're wouldn't be so many rifts with in Christianty.

Yes he says the one who sent me is greater than me, but he also says if you have seen me you have seen the father. What all that means exactly is anyone's guess. You can spin it one way and I can spin it another. But you can't deny (not saying that you have) that Jesus puts himself and allows himself to be put above all men. When the gospels talk of apostles worshipping him they don't say that he stopped them from doing so. Now believing that the gospels were re-written is one thing and that's fine but when people claim that the gospels only view him as a normal man who is just another prophet and it was Paul that added to it they are wrong.

So wait... the quote I put up, when he's talking about other people being "one" with him and God, he's talking about them being physically part of them? Although that makes ZERO sense, that would totally trash the Trinity theory because if all other people are part of it then it no longer is a "trinity" and there are millions of entities within one, rather than just three. Bro, you're not a dumb guy... some things may not be obvious, but this certainly is. The simple fact that he's even talking TO GOD should ring a bell in your head.

Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus never claimed to be part of a trinity. Something as significant as that would surely have been explicitly stated, no?

You're right... he wasn't just a normal man... he was a prophet who performed miracles.... but guess what? He admitted that:

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

edit: I wanted to point this out again...

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone."  (Mark 10:18)

Is that one obvious enough? It's about as straight-forward as it can get.... Jesus admits he is not GOD.


And what about quotes like "If you have seen me you have seen the father", or "Before Abraham, I am". John makes it clear what Jesus was in the beginning, the Word. Did John make this up? Why wouldn't he just make everything else up? You're being difficult and with out being insulting, you're acting stupid. The whole thing is a riddle and men smarter than you and I have dedicated their whole lives trying to figure it out and they can't come to an agreement. I'm not trying to convince that the trinity exists, I don't know. What I do know is there are times where Jesus equates himself to God, and there are times where he doesn't. He clearly puts himself above other prophets with his slaves to son comparison analogy. You can't say he was just a prohet with any more authority than I can say the Quran was just a book written by some arab warlord. You aren't even acceoting hte other side. Yes, maybe they contradict each other but why do you ignore the side that opposes your view and accept the side that supports it as fact?

I don't have a clear stance on this issue, so how can you tell me I'm wrong?
 

J @ M @ L

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2007, 10:35:45 AM »
1. Jesus explicitly states he is not God, but nowhere does he explicitly state that he is.
2. I didn't say you were "wrong". You said a certain line was not obvious, so I posted up more that were.
3. I'm not simply accepting the side that supports my view, and ignoring the side that doesn't. So far I've been given 2 quotes that go against my argument, and I've provided the context for both to show why they do not refute my argument. On the other hand, I've provided I don't even know how many examples to prove my argument.

4. I already provided the context/explanation for "If you have seen me you have seen the father"; as for "Before Abraham, I am"... I'll point these out:


Jeremiah 1:4 "Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,
               5 ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’ ”


Proverbs 8:23 "Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water,
25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth;
26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world
27When he established the heavens, I was there.”



Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... "
Job 38:21 "You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!”




5. And since you brought up John... let's take a look at this:

HERE'S JESUS TELLING THE JEWS THAT JOHN = ELIAS (WHO IS SUPPOSED TO APPEAR BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH)

Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.


HERE THE JEWS ASK JOHN IF HE IS INDEED ELIAS:

John 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.


NOW MY QUESTION IS.... IS JESUS A LIAR? OR IS JOHN A LIAR? ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, ONE OF THEM HAS TO BE.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 05:01:53 PM by J @ M @ L »
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Shallow

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2007, 02:17:44 PM »
1. Jesus explicitly states he is not God, but nowhere does he explicitly state that he is.
2. I didn't say you were "wrong". You said a certain line was not obvious, so I posted up more that were.
3. I'm not simply accepting the side that supports my view, and ignoring the side that doesn't. So far I've been given 2 quotes that go against my argument, and I've provided the context for both to show why they do not refute my argument. On the other hand, I've provided I don't even know how many examples to prove my argument.

4. I already provided the context/explanation for "If you have seen me you have seen the father"; as for "Before Abraham, I am"... I'll point these out:


Jeremiah 1:4 "Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,
               5 ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’ ”


Proverbs 8:23 "Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water,
25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth;
26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world
27When he established the heavens, I was there.”

^ that's Solomon speaking.... is he God too?


Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... "
Job 38:21 "You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!”




5. And since you brought up John... let's take a look at this:

HERE'S JESUS TELLING THE JEWS THAT JOHN = ELIAS (WHO IS SUPPOSED TO APPEAR BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH)

Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.


HERE THE JEWS ASK JOHN IF HE IS INDEED ELIAS:

John 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.


NOW MY QUESTION IS.... IS JESUS A LIAR? OR IS JOHN A LIAR? ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, ONE OF THEM HAS TO BE.


I'm going to answer your last question with what has been my stance from the beginning; I don't know.

I didn't mean the line by itself wasn't obvious. I meant the whole set of gospels comibined nothing is obvious. You ask an athiest and it's obvious that it's all allegory. You ask a catholic and it's obvious that it's historical documentation. That's what I meant. One lines mean nothing. I can pick a line out of a translation of the Quran that sayd "you may scourge her" with regards to your wiife. Could I say it's obvious that according to the Quran Allah disrespects women?

I never denied that there are passages in the gospel that imply Jesus was nothing more than a prophet, but there are also passages that imply otherwise, like Jesus allowing people to worship him. And the parable of the vineyard separating the son from the sllaves sent by the Father.

Seriously man, how stupid do you think people really are. If it were plain as day that Jesus never equated himself to anything higher thyan just another prophet that billions of people throughout thousands of years would just follow. And the millions of people that dedicated their lives to studying it over the past couple thousand years would just not be able to see it?
 

J @ M @ L

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2007, 03:22:18 PM »
I'm simply putting forth my argument. I have presented several examples where Jesus explicitly states that he is not God.... where it's obvious to anybody... yes the Gospels as a whole may not make it so obvious because as you say "there are other parts that IMPLY he was more than just a prophet". I agree... there are phrases that may lead people to assume that, and those verses have been brought up in the thread... however none of them make it obvious, none of them show Jesus explicitly stating it... if the Gospels are full of contradictions as a whole, and as a whole cannot make a significant point such as Jesus being God obvious... fine... I don't need anybody to show that the Gospels as a whole prove it, but ONE VERSE... I'm asking those opposing my argument to show me proof of Jesus saying "I am God".... just one phrase where it's made obvious... I provided several phrases where it's obvious that he isn't.

I'm not here to say "How can Christians be so dumb?"... this thread/discussion has nothing to do with me believing that millions of people are stupid... there is a topic at hand, and I'm making my case... I'm simply asking for some evidence from those opposing my view... nobody has been able to show me anything... all I hear is "well your examples may be obvious but there are other places that make it not so obvious"... as for people not being able to see it, there are Christians (Unitarians) who don't accept Jesus as God, and agree that he was a prophet like those before him. I'm not here trying to act like I'm the first person ever to discover this.... it has been discussed for over 1000 years...

edit: Here is another example of people who study this and dedicate their lives to this changing their minds...

LONDON: More then half of England’s Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to survey published today.

The poll of 31 of England’s 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ’s miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.

Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as “God’s supreme agent”. One declined to give a definite opinion.

The poll was carried out by London Weekend Television’s weekly religion show, Credo.

“DAILY NEWS” 25/6/84


I actually find it quite astonishing that the most important, central, and fundamental aspect of the religion is not even clear.... I mean your salvation depends on it... you must believe that Jesus must die as a God (since one man cannot carry the burden of the world's sins)... yet now they're not sure if Jesus was God... and for the 3 days and 3 nights that Jesus was "dead"... who was controlling the universe?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 03:53:48 PM by J @ M @ L »
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Facez

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2007, 03:55:08 PM »
Jesus wasn’t the son of God just because he didn’t have a father, he is the son of God because he is the only begotten son of God (son because God created him and sent him down from heaven)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We are not all sons of God it is only by faith in Christ Jesus that we become sons because of the blood of Jesus notice how we become sons of God not Begotten sons of god

Galatians 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, (27) for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
Which means that we only become sons of God BECAUSE WE HAVE PUT ON/HAVE BEEN CLOTHED IN CHRIST not because we are all the same as Christ

Why is it so hard to understand that Jesus wasn’t a full man (born of a man and woman) He was just the flesh side and God was the spirit. They called Jesus a man because that is what they could physically could see, a man Just because they didn’t call him God in that scripture doesn’t mean he isn’t. God was inside this flesh suit (Jesus) therefore making Jesus, God. The flesh side is why he cried ,prayed to god referred to him as father (and had to be circumcised). The spirit side (God) is the reason why he performed miracles, knew what people were thinking, disappeared out of peoples sight.  Every other prophet was born of Man and woman (and had flesh side and a human spirit) and were filled with the Holy spirit to carry out miracles . Jesus came from Heaven already and had God inside of him.

Read this maybe this will clear it up (remember Jesus = “the word”) and also remember this as u are reading john 1:1-14

john 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2)He was with God in the beginning.
(3)Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (4) In him was life, and that life was the light of men. (5)The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
(6)There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. (7)He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. (8)He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. (9)The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
(10)He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. (11)He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. (12)Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— (13)children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.


Why do you think that it took Jesus to redeem us of sin why did God just use Moses, Noah, Abraham, these were righteous men. God used Jesus because he needed a human body (to represent us) (because lamb, goats weren’t enough to redeem man of sin) in order to enter the world and redeem us. This body had to be clean (free of sin ) and that was only possible by God entering a man. A full man (born of man and woman) couldn’t do it by himself because man is born a sinner (he is bound to sin). God needed a body that he could control from birth.

You also notice how it says in John 1:12 god has given the right to become children of God when you believe in his name (have faith in him)

if you look at John 10:30 Jesus calls them “Gods” but the he says

(36) what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world

Jesus wasn’t like the other men because it says God set him apart as his very own

John 17:21 has no relevance in this, this scripture is completely different here he is talking about unity, like the father and him are unified. In this scripture he is just talking about unity, its doesn prove that God wasn’t in Jesus.

ok now on to john10:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

people in those days would of never of meant “My Lord and MY God” to mean “oh MY God” this is disallowed because this is using the Lords name in vain. Even I never say “oh my God”

Deuteronomy 5:11 You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain

It said Thomas "answered and said unto him" Jesus, said to him “MY lord AND My God”

Thomas called him "My Lord" because he has done it before, he called Jesus "God" because Jesus had revealed to Him earlier that HE was God I will prove both of these in one passage

John 14:5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
(6)Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (7)If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
(8)Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
(9) Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (10) Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, LIVING IN ME, who is doing his work. (11)Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

Can you see Jesus said  he is in the father and the father is in him and that if you have see Jesus you have seen the father, the father is LITERALLY in him

with the John 5:7 scripture, The reason why they put that bit in there (God the Word and the Holy ghost all of them are one) is because it makes sense and it is based on what is written in 1john 5:8 the spirit water and the blood

The spirit = God because  john  4:24 says God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

The water = Jesus which = the word (just read john 1-14 again). How do I know the water equals Jesus because

John 4:9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.)
10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
11"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?"
13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Jesus asks the Samaritan woman for a drink (literally) the woman says he is a jew and shes is only a Samaritan. The “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water”

Blood = holy spirit/ghost.

Why? because of the bible priciple the spirit is the life and the life is in the blood

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[a] and they are life.

So the spirit gives life

In Leviticus 17:11

For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

Genesis 9:6 Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

Now 1 John 5:6 makes more sense when it talks about Jesus

(6)This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

He did not come by water only (the word) but by water and blood (spirit). If it was talking about water and blood literally why would it need to tell us that he did not come by water only but by water and blood.
And it is the spirit who testifies this the spirit meaning God. If it was talking about Jesus’ own spirit it wouldn’t of needed to say “the spirit”

And John scripture isn’t the only scripture that confirms the trinity Matthew 28:19 (which I have quoted before) does

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Realise how Jesus said “NAME” of the father son and holy spirit and not “NAMES” wouldn’t it be blasphemous for Jesus to include him and the holy spirit if they all weren’t one

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'


John 14:25-26 All this I have spoken while still with you. (26)But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

As for john 11:41 & john 5:30 like I said before Jesus had a flesh side (human side) and because of that he had to pray to God and: praise him, ask him for things. Remember God wasn’t just in him, god is in heaven also. Power from God was given to his flesh so that he was able to perform miracles,

As for Matthew 28:18 I really don’t see your point. God gave him Jesus power so what? God gave him the flesh side power to do miracles when God entered him because God is the power. If God wasn’t in Jesus then he couldn’t of done his miracles. I think that your trying to imply that Jesus was a mere man who was given power by God like Moses but no because he had the power to being with. Jesus was saying that God inside of him is giving his flesh side power.
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2007, 03:57:40 PM »
LOL Hey JAMAL  Proverbs 8:25 is what happens when you take scriptures out of context. You need to read the whole thing

In Proverbs 8 David is not talking about himself. he has devoted the whole “proverbs 8” passage to wisdom. He anthromorphizes it and makes it seem like a woman


 Proverbs 8:1-25

Wisdom's Call

1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 On the heights along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gates leading into the city,
at the entrances, she cries aloud:
4 "To you, O men, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
5 You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, gain understanding.
6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.
7 My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.
8 All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.
9 To the discerning all of them are right;
they are faultless to those who have knowledge.
10 Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,
11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
12 "I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have understanding and power.
15 By me kings reign
and rulers make laws that are just;
16 by me princes govern,
and all nobles who rule on earth.
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,


i agree with what shallow wrote in his last pargraph
 

J @ M @ L

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2007, 05:01:18 PM »
1. You say he is the son of God, then turn around and say that he is God. Can I be myself and at the same time be my father? It's nonsense.

2. As for his miracles, Jesus admits that of his own he can do nothing and that he does what he does through the power of God. That doesn't make him God.
descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

3. In regards to Jesus redeeming us of sin: Muslims don't believe that we're all guilty of sin for what Adam & Eve did. Just like when your grandpa commits a murder, you can't go to jail for it... we don't believe that Jesus died for our sins.... nor do we believe that God would kill his own son (or himself?lol) for what Adam & Eve did. If you want to get into other discussions we can, but for now let's stick to Jesus = God.

4. In regards to John 10:36

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus is telling them that they were told they're Gods so why are they giving him shit for referring to himself as the Son of God.... NOT GOD. Just because God set him apart doesn't mean Jesus is God. Look at your wording: "God set him apart". You're referring to 2 separate entities.


5. John 17:21 does have relevance... Jesus says the same thing about the father being in him and him being in the father... but as soon as you realize that he makes the same statement about "them" being one as him and God are one... you dismiss it and say "well this time he's talking about unity, but the other times he's referring to him and God being one entity"... stop picking and choosing, he's saying the exact same thing... so either everyone is part of this entity or nobody is.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


6. Now you choose to say that in John 14:11 he meant it literally... when Jesus himself admits that (John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.")... God sent him, he could've said God is inside of me and it is the non-flesh part of me that's doing this... look:
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know

- he is a MAN.
- approved of God
- miracles and wonders and signs, which GOD DID BY HIM.
God used Jesus as a tool... this is what Jesus meant by him and God having the same purpose, him and God being one, God being in him,...Jesus was not God.


7.   1 John 5:7   WAS TAKEN OUT OF THE BIBLE AS A FABRICATION, A LIE, BULLSHIT, WHATEVER YOU WANNA CALL IT

8.  Matthew 28:19  doesn't show Jesus claiming to be God. The verse just shows the author pointing out that all three are to be mentioned during the baptism... that's because before baptism was only in Christ/Jesus (Galatians 3:27, 1 Corinthians 1:13, Acts 8:16, 19:5)

9. As for the "Before Abraham, I am" and related quotes, I already addressed that with other examples of prophets claiming to have "been" before.

10. God giving Jesus powers doesn't make Jesus God.

- Jesus admitted that he doesn't know when the Day of Judgment is, and that ONLY GOD KNOWS. I mean if God were inside him, wouldn't he know?
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

- God is All-Knowing. If Jesus were God, wouldn't he know when figs are in season, instead of getting pissed off when there are no figs on the tree? LOL
Mark 11:12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

- His spirit GREW, and he GREW wiser. If the spirit of God was within him from the start as you say, then are you claiming that God is not perfect, since he had room to grow?
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.


11. As for your last post... wisdom = the "word".
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 05:23:16 PM by J @ M @ L »
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J @ M @ L

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2007, 05:04:43 PM »
i agree with what shallow wrote in his last pargraph

And here is my response to Shallow's last paragraph:

I'm not here to say "How can Christians be so dumb?"... this thread/discussion has nothing to do with me believing that millions of people are stupid... there is a topic at hand, and I'm making my case... I'm simply asking for some evidence from those opposing my view... nobody has been able to show me anything... all I hear is "well your examples may be obvious but there are other places that make it not so obvious"... as for people not being able to see it, there are Christians (Unitarians) who don't accept Jesus as God, and agree that he was a prophet like those before him. I'm not here trying to act like I'm the first person ever to discover this.... it has been discussed for over 1000 years...

edit: Here is another example of people who study this and dedicate their lives to this changing their minds...

LONDON: More then half of England’s Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to survey published today.

The poll of 31 of England’s 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ’s miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.

Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as “God’s supreme agent”. One declined to give a definite opinion.

The poll was carried out by London Weekend Television’s weekly religion show, Credo.

“DAILY NEWS” 25/6/84


I actually find it quite astonishing that the most important, central, and fundamental aspect of the religion is not even clear.... I mean your salvation depends on it... you must believe that Jesus must die as a God (since one man cannot carry the burden of the world's sins)... yet now they're not sure if Jesus was God... and for the 3 days and 3 nights that Jesus was "dead"... who was controlling the universe?
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I'm not pulling this out of my ass... this has been discussed for over 1000 years... and even amongst Christians like yourself, people are coming to the conclusion that Jesus was not God. It is common for there to be minor differences within a religion... but something this significant? The central aspect of the religion?
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J @ M @ L

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2007, 05:06:36 PM »
And let me ask you this, Facez:

Do you believe the Bible has mistakes?
Do you believe the Bible contradicts itself?
If not, then why are there revised versions coming out every several years where they decide to take certain verses out of the Bible, and consider them fabrications?

And, the same thing I've been asking for from the beginning: Show me 1 verse in the entire Bible... just 1 line... where  JESUS SAYS "I AM GOD". I can show you plenty where he says he isn't... I ask for one where he says he is...
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 05:15:47 PM by J @ M @ L »
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Shallow

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2007, 09:46:56 PM »
"Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing My day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet 50 years old," they said to Him, "and you have seen Abraham?" "I tell you the truth," Jesus announced, "before Abraham was, I AM!"

That's a direct reference to how God described himself in the old testament and Jesus says it the same way.


Just because that slave trading murderous fuck Solomon said similar things doesn't change what Jesus said right there.


Would just a prophet says this

60Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 61But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
      Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[f] the Son of the Blessed One?"

 62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

 63The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"


And this is all from the dirty English version. If you could read Greek like I can there are other parts that aren't as unclear when it comes to claiming a higher power. It just gets lost in the translation.
 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2007, 12:10:35 PM »
I have already shown others who have made similar references to themselves (as in the first quote), so just because Jesus said it, doesn't mean we can attribute it differently to him than everybody else. You're right... it doesn't change what Jesus said, but it also doesn't change what the others said.

As for the second quote, that doesn't mean he's God.... he said the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One... Jesus sitting at the right hand of God... if A sits next to B, A does not equal B.
 
I've made my case, and you guys have made yours. This is what it pretty much came down to:
- I provide verses that explicitly show Jesus claiming he is not God, that he is a man who gets his powers from God, etc.:

"He that is sent, is not greater than He that sent Him" (John 13:16)

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one".  (Mark 12:29)

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone."  (Mark 10:18)

"He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." (John 14:24)

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30)

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)

"My father is greater than I" (John 14:28)

- You guys have provided (and admitted) that there are other verses where it's "not so clear" whether he is or isn't God... and haven't refuted the examples I brought forth

I wasn't expecting anybody to change their whole outlook on this... simply wanted to point a few things out... and this topic is pretty much exhausted now... it was a good discussion though... if anyone can show me, I would still like to see an example of Jesus saying "I am God"---- of course that will be impossible because Jesus never said that.. instead he cried out to God, and it's nonsense for God to "foresake himself"---- anyways, I'm done here. Peace.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 12:13:25 PM by J @ M @ L »
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Shallow

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2007, 06:42:10 PM »
All that being said you have to remember that the English versions aren't translated properly. Your example for the crying out on the cross is a perfect example. In the original Greek texts and every current Greek texts I've come across the actual quote of "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" is used as well as the Greek translation which translates to English as My God why have you forsaken me. It's a direct quote from a pslam sending a message. The people around Jesus even wonder whether he is summoning something. There are subtleties in the Greek language that the English language cannot grasp (and vice verse ofcourse), And even more so there are subtleties in the Aramaic language the Greek language cannot grasp. What was really said and meant by Jesus can never really fully be understood, and certainly not if read in English. It's like trying to appreciate and understand the talent of Shakespeare when reading a translation in chinese, or seeing what was really so special about Crime and Punishment. The content can be translated but a lot will be lost.


P.S. bringing your AB logic into this is a bit absurd. Explain to me how God came into existence in a logical way then we'll debate logic. He just is and always was right? Tell that to an athiest. If Jesus is the literal word of God then can the word speak with out the brain, mouth, lips and tongue? Is any word spoken by anyone able to speak on it's own. Could the father be the messenger and the son be the message? Is that possible? If so, can the message exist and be presented with out the messenger to send it? The answer is no. But you can have a message with you from the beginning and wait to send it.

 

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Re: Thread concerning Jesus and the concept of the Trinity
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2007, 08:07:51 PM »
Whoa 2 weeks, Sorry I was so late with this reply I’ve been busy. I thought drop in and  would reply to Jamal’s last statement,

Ok here we go, that John 13:6-17 (scripture that you sated) was taken out of context Jesus was referring to his disciples as servants

John 13:6-17 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?" (7)Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand." (8)"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet."
Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me." (9)"Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!"
(10) Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." (11) For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.
12When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. (13)"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. (14)Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. (15) I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. (16) I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. (17)Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

As for the Mark 12:29: like I said before Jesus was quoting the Deuteronomy scripture, I don’t see why he should of changed it. They asked him what is the greatest commandment and he repeated what was written. They are various other verses were Jesus quotes scripture exactly how it is written.

Now to answer your john 14 statements we have to go back to John 12 and work our way to john 14

A lot of people weren’t believing that Jesus was God because they only saw the flesh so Jesus said in john 12:44-46

(44)Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. (45) When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. (46)I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness

Ok now onto john 14 (right before Jesus made the john 24 statement). Doesn’t this scripture below prove to you that Jesus is God

John 14:5-10 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (7) If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well . From now on, you do know him and have seen him".
8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (10)Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work .

This Is why he had to say what he said in John 14:24 that the father is greater than him because even though the father was living in him (and guiding him), Jesus was still flesh on the outside (that why he could cry, needed to pray and fast) but the father doesn’t have a flesh side. For e.g. a computer, a computer is a great thing and through it I can do great things (type, communicate with people, possibly affect the world) but the computer has disadvantages, it can: break down, slow down, etc and without me the computer can not do anything/much because I am greater than the computer (I can think for myself, have free will, i can fix the computer etc). so it is correct to say that everything this computer is doing/does is operated by me. It is carrying out my commands and from what I am able to do with it, the people that I am communicating with get to know me. likewise Jesus is the flesh (computer) which the God (the operator) uses/used to do his will on earth. The reason why God needed Jesus was because he needed a human body to save us humans from sin and death. Jesus said the father was greater than him because Jesus was the flesh side (human side)

To answer the john 5:30 (which I sought of answered in my previous statement) u have to look at john 5:16 first to get a better understanding of why he said what he said.

John 5:16-19 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. (17)Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." (18)For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (19)Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

The Jews who were accusing him only saw a man who was claiming to be God, so Jesus has to let them know that the authority he (his flesh, what they could see) had come from God (and that is why he could make such a claim).

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

This scripture shows that it is only God that lives within him that does his work Because Jesus was part human (flesh) he had a will but his flesh side chose to do the will of God and because Jesus follow. In Galatians it says that Jesus was made like a man and also it says the “word became flesh” in the book of John . So he had emotions and a will (because that is what man has) but because the God was in him, strengthening him he chose not to do his own will a chose Gods. Because we are sinful we could not carry out Gods will and that is why Jesus had to come, to break the power of sin.

If we look at the 43 chapter it says:

John 5:43-44 (43)I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. (44)How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God.

Jesus came in the name of the father. When you come in the name of someone, you represent them. He also said they could obtain praise if you accept him because he comes in the father name.

To answer your Matthew 28 statement

Matthew 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. (17)When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. (18)Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (19) Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (20) and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

First of all it says They “worshipped” Jesus. Hmmm why would the disciples worship Jesus, doesn’t the law of Moses say

Worship the lord your God and him only”.

Jesus also says in John 4:23

23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

So Gods worshippers should worship him but why are they worshipping Jesus, jesus must be God . They are many other people in the four gospels who worshipped Jesus.

Any way It says they worshipped him  “but some doubted”, (because Jesus has just been raised from the dead which is a miraculous thing and also Jesus warned them before he died about false prophets appearing in the future claiming to be him). They doubted because Jesus all they saw was the flesh. Jesus didn’t want the disciples to acknowledge the flesh, he wanted them to acknowledge God (within him). Jesus was basically saying it is  The father (God) had given this flesh that they were seeing authority over  heaven and earth he proved to them that he was God and had authority by telling them to go out and baptise people in the name of the father  the son and the holy spirit (verse 19) and also by the statement he made in the gospel of Mark 16:15 (which is basically an extension of what happened)

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 He proved to them that it he had come back by ascending into heaven also

And by promising to send the holy spirit which they did receive.

(49)I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

Further proof that Jesus was God.

Jesus was the word.

John11 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It says the “word was God” Now look at verse 14

John 1:14 The Word  became flesh and made his dwelling among us . We have seen his glory , the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father , full of grace and truth.

Does it say or does it not say the word became flesh and dwelt among us. So Jesus was the word and verse one says the “word was God”. it also says the one and only that came from the father.

John 1:2-5 He was with God in the beginning. (3)Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (4)In him was life, and that life was the light of men. (5)The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Jesus (the word) was the light/all things were made by him

John1:9-10 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him

So it says Jesus (the word) was light, it also says that the world was made through him. it also says in John 1:4 in him was life

Look at what Jesus said about himself

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 9:5 "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I Am

Jesus called himself “I am” everyone knows that God called himself I am

Exodus 3:14  I AM THAT I AM

if you translate what God said to Greek it reads “Ego eimi ho no.”

This statement shows the divinity of God it meant that God Just “is” he has no beginning or no end

Look at what Jesus says in John 8:56-58

John 8:56-58 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." 57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

As u are reading this u probably think that Jesus meant

“Before Abraham I was”   (which is past tense) no! Jesus didn’t say that; he said before Abraham “I am”. “I am” in Greek is “Ego Eimi“. “Ego Eimi” is Present Tense. So Jesus was saying before Abraham “he is” Why would Jesus say that?

That is why it says in the next chapter (chapter 59)

John 8:59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

The Jews picked up stones to stone him because he called himself God.
 
Jesus, Where is your father?

John 8:19 Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

God gives living water so does Jesus

in the old Testament in Jeremiah says in Jeremiah 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the LORD, the spring of living water

so God (who is spirit) is the spring of living water

Ok in John 4:10-14 Jesus meets a woman at a well and asks her for a drink she wonders why so this is what he says.

John 4:10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
(11)"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? (12)Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?" (13)Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, (14)but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

So God is living water but wait Jesus says whoever drinks the water he gives them will never thirst because Jesus is offering the living water

The way Jesus spoke

When Jesus spoke he usually started of with verily verily I say unto” or “I said this” or “do this.” The other prophets in the bible start their sentences of with “the lord said this” “the lord has told me to tell you this” " the lord commanded" etc Jesus never said “the lord commanded/told be to tell you this” he just said "i tell you now" "i give you"

in conclusion

What I have been trying to say from the beginning is that Jesus was the Word that became flesh. When the angel Gabriel came to Mary and told her that she was going to have a child the angel gave her the “word” and she received it  because she said so be it that word become flesh inside of her. The flesh  had to live as a human being (do everything that a human being dies until he was crucified. Because. God was inside of him he was able to go his whole life without sinning (which no one else has done). Why do you think it took Jesus to redeem us of our sins? couldn’t Moses of done it, Joshua, Jacob, Jeremiah? Why Jesus? Why was Jesus so special? Because God had to create a body with his word that was born on earth (like a regular Man) that he could enter and prevent from sinning so that this body could be the perfect & sinless sacrifice for us. God couldn’t of chosen a regular man even David and Moses sinned and they had the holy spirit.

P.S. I liked your statement shallow
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 08:30:29 PM by Facez »