Author Topic: Official ATL thread(Above the Law, Not Atlanta)  (Read 10309 times)

Tanjential

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Official ATL thread(Above the Law, Not Atlanta)
« on: July 17, 2007, 04:52:39 PM »
Wow, now I see why ATL was so pissed about The Chronic.

First of all, this album is awesome. It's on par with Livin' Like Hustlers, which surprised me. Only problem was there was no song as smooth/dope/chill as "Ballin'" from LLH.

Now on with the controversy. I'm sure many of you know ATL took great creative issues with Dr.Dre's The Chronic. They claimed Dre stole the album's concept pretty much and made it into the Chronic. I didn't believe it, until today. I am 90% sure that's EXACTLY what happened.

The style of speech the rappers use (aloooot of dizzamn and eezy type speech etc.), there's a song that samples mothership connection (the same 'let me ride' chorus), a song about killing people with a spidery guitar riff (a la rat tat tat tat), the first song samples not just knee deep's bassline (just like fuck wit dre day, the first song on the chronic) and countless other parts like that.

So, I know this is common knowledge but Dirty Left was reminding me the other day about how when snoop was first chilling with dre, he was in the studio right around the time N.W.A was finishing up EFIL4ZAGGIN, hanging with ATL as they were doing Black Mafia Life (some accounts even say that this is how snoop and Pac first met as Pac is on BML) and Dre was in the studio while they were making it (though he wasn't involved like he was with LLH) near his last days at Ruthless.
  This makes sense to me as they don't diss Dre/DR on BML even though it came out in 93. Eazy mentions the lack of Dre, but it's not a diss. actually he's complimenting dre. he says something to the effect of "i know dre didn't do it, but gimme that beat"

that said, Dre took BML's concepts and basic samples/musical foundation (clinton/collins/mayfield etc.), found better MCs (snoop, rbx, rage, kurupt etc.) and produced the same album but better, because he's Doctor fucking Dre.

as dope as BML is, none of the songs are as tightly put together as the chronic's tracks. the tracks sound more muddled, the chorus/verse distinctions aren't that clear, the sound/instrumentation isn't as crisp as The Chronic to say nothing of the rapping (which while fun just doesn't compare to snoop or Kurupt, maybe equal with the rest, MAYBE) etc. so while Dre probably more than likely DID rip off ATL's concept and samples, I think he had a reason, and Dre's previous work on a contextual level was still definitely building up to The Chronic which makes me think perhaps that the chronic/BML concept is something the whole ruthless camp (probably D.O.C. when you think about it) was toying with since straight outta compton dropped.

anyway, discuss.

secondly, many people say 2pac is the first cat to use the term "g funk" cause of his appearance on BML but later on in the album one of the members of ATL says 'g funk' as well and as we don't know which track was recorded first, we may never know.

also, dr.dre's 'let me ride' had a 'g-funk remix' that couldn't have come out later than 93 and not only is the term g funk in the title but snoop uses the term in the song as well, does anyone know when the let me ride CDS/single was released relative to black mafia life or the recording schedule of either?

peace-T
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 10:58:24 AM by Tanjential »

 
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dclee

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Re: Finally heard Black Mafia Life
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2007, 05:12:04 PM »
Good post. Don't really have much to add but yeah I agree with pretty much everything you said. I was surprised when I first heard BML and heard the same samples that were used in Dre Day and Let Me Ride, since i listened to The Chronic first. But yes, this is a very solid album, good guest spots. Though I thought Uncle Sam's Curse had a more defined G-Funk sound.
 

Tanjential

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Re: Finally heard Black Mafia Life
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2007, 05:13:39 PM »
another thought I wanted to add was that this WAS the ruthless chronic effectively. in the sense that it had some of the only things missing from the chronic that would have made it out of this world dope like Eazy, 2pac, and Ren. if one of the two records had cube, those two discs would be the 2 most essential discs in west coast rap.

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Tanjential

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Re: Finally heard Black Mafia Life
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2007, 05:16:39 PM »
does anyone know why the chronic didn't diss ATL and ATL didn't diss the chronic's participants?

i wonder if dre didn't diss ATL on the chronic BECAUSE he knew that would be going too far since he already stole their concept.

-T

 
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acgrundy

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Re: Finally heard Black Mafia Life
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2007, 05:38:00 PM »
dude, people need to get over all this stealing shit...so much rap has basically copied old funk anyways...both these albums heavily sampled older tracks, and basically used older concepts.  Thats music, people like what they listen to and try to evolve it.  "It Was a Good Day" by cube produced by pooh uses pretty much the same exact beat as the Isley Brothers song...u could basically say Pooh stole that beat.  And the same goes for hundreds of beats.  And then look how many albums and producers copied the style of Dre's 2001.  People get influenced in music, and that is how it is.  Dre made a masterpiece w/ the chronic, and u would be an idiot to say that he didn't have any influence on it.  He had tons of old school funk influence...not BML influence.  Both albums were influenced by the same music, which also influenced hundreds of other albums.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 05:52:07 PM by acgrundy »
 

CHUCK KNOXXX

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Re: Finally heard Black Mafia Life
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2007, 05:43:01 PM »
dude, people need to get over all this stealing shit...so much rap has basically copied old funk anyways...both these albums heavily sampled older tracks, and basically used older concepts.  Thats music, people like what they listen to and try to evolve it.  "It Was a Good Day" by cube produced by cube uses pretty much the same exact beat as the Isley Brothers song...u could basically say Pooh stole that beat.  And the same goes for hundreds of beats.  And then look how many albums and producers copied the style of Dre's 2001.  People get influenced in music, and that is how it is.  Dre made a masterpiece w/ the chronic, and u would be an idiot to say that he didn't have any influence on it.  He had tons of old school funk influence...not BML influence.  Both albums were influenced by the same music, which also influenced hundreds of other albums.
i think the difference here is that cold 187 aka big hutch has said many times before that dre heard early versions of black mafia life and then goes and records the chronic right afterwards.....i would call that more than a coincidence, and its not about influence, its about taking someones idea and claiming it as your own.....did dre use those samples better? absolutely. did he think to use those samples prior to hearing hutch use the same exact ones? thats up for debate........
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acgrundy

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Re: Finally heard Black Mafia Life
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2007, 05:56:59 PM »
dude, people need to get over all this stealing shit...so much rap has basically copied old funk anyways...both these albums heavily sampled older tracks, and basically used older concepts.  Thats music, people like what they listen to and try to evolve it.  "It Was a Good Day" by cube produced by cube uses pretty much the same exact beat as the Isley Brothers song...u could basically say Pooh stole that beat.  And the same goes for hundreds of beats.  And then look how many albums and producers copied the style of Dre's 2001.  People get influenced in music, and that is how it is.  Dre made a masterpiece w/ the chronic, and u would be an idiot to say that he didn't have any influence on it.  He had tons of old school funk influence...not BML influence.  Both albums were influenced by the same music, which also influenced hundreds of other albums.
i think the difference here is that cold 187 aka big hutch has said many times before that dre heard early versions of black mafia life and then goes and records the chronic right afterwards.....i would call that more than a coincidence, and its not about influence, its about taking someones idea and claiming it as your own.....did dre use those samples better? absolutely. did he think to use those samples prior to hearing hutch use the same exact ones? thats up for debate........

who knows if dre or hutch got the idea first.  Hell, there could be hundreds of people who do music, who had the idea, but didn't do anything with it.  Maybe because they were lazy, had no connections, didn't know how, were afraid it might not work, etc.  The point is people come up w/ ideas all the time, and people copy off ideas all the time.  How many different companies have copied the IPOD?  Dozens.  But what is the most know?  The Apple Ipod.  Some people may like BML more than the Chronic, but for the most part the chronic is way more popular.  Who cares if someone copies an idea, that shit happens all the time, its what you do with the idea.  Shit happens in music, movies, tv, video games, businesses, its life.  If you think you are the first person to come up with an idea, you most likely are wrong.  The music that was sampled on those albums had been out for 10+ years, chances are someone thought of those ideas even before dre and hutch.
 

d-nice

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Re: Finally heard Black Mafia Life
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2007, 06:08:34 PM »
dude, people need to get over all this stealing shit...so much rap has basically copied old funk anyways...both these albums heavily sampled older tracks, and basically used older concepts.  Thats music, people like what they listen to and try to evolve it.  "It Was a Good Day" by cube produced by cube uses pretty much the same exact beat as the Isley Brothers song...u could basically say Pooh stole that beat.  And the same goes for hundreds of beats.  And then look how many albums and producers copied the style of Dre's 2001.  People get influenced in music, and that is how it is.  Dre made a masterpiece w/ the chronic, and u would be an idiot to say that he didn't have any influence on it.  He had tons of old school funk influence...not BML influence.  Both albums were influenced by the same music, which also influenced hundreds of other albums.
i think the difference here is that cold 187 aka big hutch has said many times before that dre heard early versions of black mafia life and then goes and records the chronic right afterwards.....i would call that more than a coincidence, and its not about influence, its about taking someones idea and claiming it as your own.....did dre use those samples better? absolutely. did he think to use those samples prior to hearing hutch use the same exact ones? thats up for debate........

who knows if dre or hutch got the idea first.  Hell, there could be hundreds of people who do music, who had the idea, but didn't do anything with it.  Maybe because they were lazy, had no connections, didn't know how, were afraid it might not work, etc.  The point is people come up w/ ideas all the time, and people copy off ideas all the time.  How many different companies have copied the IPOD?  Dozens.  But what is the most know?  The Apple Ipod.  Some people may like BML more than the Chronic, but for the most part the chronic is way more popular.  Who cares if someone copies an idea, that shit happens all the time, its what you do with the idea.  Shit happens in music, movies, tv, video games, businesses, its life.  If you think you are the first person to come up with an idea, you most likely are wrong.  The music that was sampled on those albums had been out for 10+ years, chances are someone thought of those ideas even before dre and hutch.

Being both Dre and Hutch basically came from the same camp I think some ideas were definitely copied. Now as to who copied who, that like Knoxx said is up for debate. It's always good to see and hear Above The Law threads giving them props because they get lost in the shuffle and don't get their just due alot of times.
 

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Re: Finally heard Black Mafia Life
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2007, 06:38:36 PM »
another thought I wanted to add was that this WAS the ruthless chronic effectively. in the sense that it had some of the only things missing from the chronic that would have made it out of this world dope like Eazy, 2pac, and Ren. if one of the two records had cube, those two discs would be the 2 most essential discs in west coast rap.

-T
Black mafia life came first and everybody knows this that was part of the early ruthless gang which eventually branched off into the death row side and you had the original ruthless side.If you listen to niggaz for life hutch,kmg and kokane were on the intro of that record and hucth says above the law in this mutha,this is blakck mafia for life down with the real niggaz for life. He states black mafia life was already in the workings before the chronic and before BML and what was in the works was never missing a beat which is the song that hutch played for Dre and was the embryo stages of G-funk which in turn Dre got the idea for Dre day for. The only reason you think that dre came up with the concept is because he came out with the chronic first while ATL were in a label change going from epic to giant records. The influneces you start to to see being sprinkled all over from dudes like warren g and snoop dogg who were down with the black mob 6 months before Deep cover. Warren G and hutch lived together and this is why you hear warren hollering the g-funk as well as snoop dogg,talking about I'm not bragging,but I'm blue ragging. This jingle I'm not blue ragging was taken out of the contents of the hook on never missing a beat which kokane sings I'm not bragging. Snoop continued to get influence with him saying,everything is fine when you listen to the D-o-g, I got the cultivated music that be capturing me or whatever,which was taken out of the contents of,everything is fine when you rolling with you homies and a little bit of VSOP.



Now the reason why ATL didn't diss Dre on BML was because it was no reason to diss him. But dre takes it upon himself to diss hutch on one of those dogg pound joints,talking about it was kinda of cold how his ass got smoked. But the only thang he get's kurupt and daz to diss and he in the background whispering subliminals,stay in the studio all you want,you can't fade this. So this is why hutch disses him on kokan'e funk upon a ryhme record.


But at the end of the day it was all one N.W.A gang. Dre got some influences from his homie big hutch. When the family split into two,Atl stayed down with Eazy and Dre rolled with suge and the row. Dre inturn was influence big time with the chronic by above the law, the disrespectful thang with Dre,snoop and evrybody else was they didn't give ATL props for the influence and this is why there is a big discussion on this issue. But at the same time Dre has influence ATL as well ,so it's all really one family that is split into two forces who need to be unified under one N.W.A umbrella.



Now see the influence keeps going because if you listen to kokane's funk upon a ryhme, there is a song called the aftermath and you have dirty red aka shaki speaking on the intro talking about the black mob wanted to call themselves the aftermath, on this particular cut you hear influences on maybe why dre named his label aftermath records by the way shaki does the intro.


Also ATl put tupac on the N.W.A tree with call it what you want.
 

Blu Lacez

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Re: Finally heard Black Mafia Life
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2007, 06:46:43 PM »
^^
props On That Info, Homie!!!

+1

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Tanjential

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Re: Finally heard Black Mafia Life
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2007, 10:01:13 PM »
Grundy: I'm not taking credit away from Dre. The Chronic is a tighter piece for sure and that is to dre's credit. the sound on that record is phenomenal, you know i'm one of dre's biggest fans/supporters. I'm just saying, on a conceptual level he clearly took something from BML.

         If both records were full of p-funk samples that's one thing, there's a hundred famous p-funk songs BUT the conspicuous thing is that both albums sample THE SAME P FUNK RECORDS, the same 10 or so samples for the most part are flipped on each album.

It's not like ATL used 'knee deep' and dre sampled 'chocolate city'....nah, ATL used knee deep and dre used knee deep, and atl used mothership connection and dre used mothership connection, etc. etc.

and it's not just the samples, it's the concept of the album: to show the average non gangster person the mindstate of the G.

and even though he took that from them

a)he produced their first shit which was CLEARLY still a cortnerstone of their sound

and

b) as is evidenced by N.W.A's progressive works, the chronic is also what dre was headed towards, perhaps BML just allowed him to focus on the specific material he needed to to create this exaggerated gangster manifesto he had in mind.

shaka:

word, you speak the real. But I wouldn't go so far as to say Pac is a part of the NWA tree cause of one appearance.

anyway, the dogg pound track where they diss cold 187 is 'puffin' on blunts and drankin' tanqueray', one of Kurupt's best verses ever.

-T

 
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Tanjential

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Re: Finally heard Black Mafia Life
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2007, 10:02:47 PM »
also, if you read a bit more about DP/DR/Dre history you'll see that while dre initiated the beef, thr young and belligerent crips that made up the dogg pound were all too eager to escalate it. In other words, I don't know that dre specifically told Kurupt/Daz to diss anyone from the ruthless camp in that particular instance. especially considering Kurupt was freestyling.

-T

 
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DJSpin

Re: Finally heard Black Mafia Life
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2007, 05:32:56 AM »
great topic, i have always been a fan of both BML and the CHronic from the frist days they both came out and you can easily tell that somewhere along the lines all the samples and ideas and basslines MUST have been discussed or heard by both parties together to include so many similar sounds on two different lp's, especailly when dre left ruthelss so abruptly and on bad terms its just tooo coincidental.  I agree that the ATL sound was def an big influenece on dre and he had to have heard some of Big Hutchs ideas and then took them in his own direction.   Whoever said that Never missing a Beat was in the works prior to EFFIL4zaggin i think is onto something because it had to be..especially with the references ATL makes in the intro.   
Another thing to think about, i dont know when Kam's Made in America came out, but the song Givin It Up produced by 187um uses the same bassline as Dre's lets get high...  i dont know which came out first..but another coincidence maybe...  i think Quik also used that same beat in the Break Bread tune..   i dont know just some comments i wanted to make
 

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Re: Finally heard Black Mafia Life
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2007, 05:46:14 AM »
Another thread that makes me laugh ... yeah Dre stole beats , used a lot of samples , didn't credit some people work but I don't think you can have a such carreer without having at least some talents... Dre is one (if not the main) reason of the past success of the West and nowadays new West rappers still beggin for a Dre beat , even if his downfall has begun ...
 

Mygla

Re: Finally heard Black Mafia Life
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2007, 06:39:39 AM »
I read somewhere (maybe in the Ronin Ro book) that ATL was supposed to/wanted to bail on Ruthless along with Dre, DOC & Michel'le, that could be one of the reasons Dre didn't diss them on The Chronic and the other way around