Author Topic: there is only one god  (Read 636 times)

Shallow

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Re: there is only one god
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2007, 08:02:47 AM »
I never said any of it is disposable. I was trying to establish that a lot of what people consider "science" is based on speculation and faith. I'm not talking about figuring out how to build a car engine that goes as fast as possible with using up the least amount of fuel. I'm talking about the science used to figure out the universe. I used gravity as an extreme example of something that's been the same since as far back as we know and hasn't changed and just wanted to show how little we know about it. So big bangs, and evolution, and global warming aren't even close to with in our realm of knowledge (yet?) but it wouldn't seem that way when you hear them discussed in school or on TV. I was trying to show that this new science that has made its way to the public is a lot like a new religion.

I'd compare it to the old Greek myths. Based on what I've read by the scholars of ancient Greece it didn't seem like any of them prayed to or believed in Zeus or his cohorts. The myths were used as a tool by the wise to explain the unknown but were used as tool by those in power to keep the masses in order. Sacrifice that goat or Hera will curse you with terrible weather and storms. Drive that hybrid and recycle or the earth will curse us with terrible storms. The very first God according to the ancient Greeks was Gaia, the earth, and now a few thousand years later we worship her again. What created Gaia? The chaos; what the greeks called a dark void of nothing the the rest of the world expanded from (sounf familiar?). Jung and others brought forth the idea of archetypes and how every people from all over the world come up with similar basic ideas. Is science our set of archetypes? I don't know.

Sure a lot of science is credible and tested. So was a lot of science in ancient Greece. One scientists measured the circumference of the Earth. One called the milky way a collection of distant stars and expressed the possiility of aliens living on other planets. Those aspects of math and science are pretty similar and so are our "sciences" that try and disprove a God or explain creation; we don't know so we make up.

I'm not trying to prove God, I just don't accept the idea of athiesm. Athiests have a God; it's called Science. Agnostics I understand. Everyone is a bit agnostic at heart. No one really knows, but those that mock religion and turn to science instead are just adhering to another religion. I'm not talking about you, but athiests in general. When Christianity arose many pagans traded in their idea of idols and turned to this one holy creator, and when Science arose publicly in the renaissance many Christians traded in their Holy God for Science.

Most of ancient Greece knew a lot more about the world than most of the renaissance era Europe and even then Greek scholars came to accept Christianity as true. Greeks were among the first converted Christians, long before Rome or the councils. Was this because they saw something that convinced them or because they knew that some things couldn't be explained and the concept of Religion was beneficial to society? I don't know but just like Science is not disposable, neither is Christianity, or Bhuddism, or etc.


P.S. I was comparing Gore to a yokel.
 

Elevz

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Re: there is only one god
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2007, 09:46:37 AM »
You're definately right about how much we don't know. I'll also cosign you on your point about the way science is portrayed in the media and in schools. In fact, I believe that's exactly where lies a huge threat to society. Judging from QT's post, it seems religion is steadily perishing from the public. The new way of looking at science will only further that development. The 'problem' is that science is much more than a collection of facts. People abandon their religion and choose the 'facts' of science, while forgetting about the thought behind it. If you're going to turn your back on God as your ruler and 'shepherd through the valley of darkness,' then who will guide you? Abandoning God leaves an empty hole in the spirit of many men. They think science and atheism teach them something about a lack of purpose and an unlimited freedom that comes from the carelessness it is entwined with. Drugs, alcohol abuse, mindless living, mistreating people, rudeness, egocentricity... A neverending consumer chain, pleasure seeking and hedonism... Science is constantly in search of evidence against the acts of God. It is God's enemy number one. In a way God may be irreplacable though.

I'm seeing it all around me in the hedonistic kingdom The Netherlands have become. Twelve year olds massively give head in exchange for a breezer now, and they think it's great economics. People are getting ruder; tolerance is going down hill; the public morality is gone. As opposed to the U.S.A., the majority of the people have lived without religion for half a century now. The depillarisation and secularisation kicked in early. While everything was okay at first when -even though people didn't go to church anymore- at least the morality still stood strong, the second generation of atheists is about to collapse. They don't have a clue about the reasons why their parents acted as they did back then, and they assume it is natural for man to live without restraints. It is painfully becoming visible exactly why the contribution of religion to a people can't be missed.

In a way, all of this was hard to avoid. The way science is presented to the people makes it seem as if religion has been a bullshit concept from the get-go. That's what they oppose to. There wasn't much to be done against that, knowing that most science already was ahead of society. Society didn't have an alternative, but people did start cutting the strings. The way things are going now, I think as time goes by it'll only become harder to get people back on track. A lot of people believe in nothing now. That's a pretty hopeless situation, which makes the view on further changes sceptical. Even if society collapses tomorrow, people won't know what hit them.

I strongly disagree with you on one point: atheists don't necessarily have an absolute faith in science. If they do, then I'm not one of them. I believe it would be more accurate to put that atheists believe in absolute reason.

Reason does tell me God has no direct influence on earth. Even if He does, it would be so little that praying for Him makes no sense to me.
Reason does tell me science isn't absolute, yet it does provide plausible explanations for phenomena.
Reason does not tell me whether or not God created this earth.
Reason does tell me the posibility of religious concepts being entirely fictive is very real.
Reason does tell me there is an explanation for everything, even though that explanation may be hard to come by.
Reason also tells me the thought of religion as being true, is not entirely ridiculous. We just don't know.

Reason tells me it makes no sense for me to walk around with a bulletproof vest, just because ever since the invention of gun powder it has become possible to get shot and die from it. I can't say I won't get shot down, but I can't let the possibility of that happening reign over my life. I'm not going to spend my money and time on buying a bulletproof vest and walking around in it.
I look at religion in the same way: (probably) ever since man came on this earth, we've been wondering about our existance. Just because it is possible that a God created this us and He now demands our respect and prayers, doesn't mean I'll have to devote my life to that possibility. It's only a suggestive option to me. Science does provide me with a whole gang of alternative explanations for the phenomena religious people tend to ascribe to God. These explanations seem far more reasonable to me. Yes, reason tells me. That is my state of mind as an atheist.

P.S. I was comparing Gore to a yokel.

That just went totally over my head... +2 lol
 

Shallow

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Re: there is only one god
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2007, 10:43:33 AM »
If you believe in the possibility of God are you an athiest? I see athiests that see no God like devout catholics see God. A no doubt about it. Admitting you don't know how the world was createed and not believing in any one explanation makes me call you an agnostic.



I wasn't really trying to tie in morality with religion. I'm not so sure that with out organized religion we wouldn't have a moral society. Remember I do believe that the holy spirit resides in all of us and the concept of what is good is present in everyone. You can argue that we learn it from being taught it. I argue that we learn it naturally. There has never been any significant tests on human growing up in the wild to support either claim. And I think we can both agree that to conduct such studies would be wrong. So we may never get to the bottom of that one.


Some things in my opinion don't have any reason. Why are we born? We do we exist. Why do we need oxygen to live? Why does gravity keep us grounded on the Earth and keep us from flying into the unviverse? Does reason answer any of that? Can it? Can Science? And whys can never be answered. I'm not saying that the bible answers them. I just don't think about the whys because I'm confident we can't figure them out. We're here. We can figure out how to make here easier to cope with but we can never figure out why we're here, not with any science I've seen yet anyway.

I was raised with a religion that suits me and I choose to believe what I've been taught and what I've concluded myself. I guess in the end I don't want to believe that we just live for 80 or so years and die and that's it. I want to believe that there is something bigger, more premanent for us. Wishful thinking maybe but I have to believe in a spiritual connection and spiritual existence.
 

Elevz

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Re: there is only one god
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2007, 12:29:23 PM »
If you believe in the possibility of God are you an athiest? I see athiests that see no God like devout catholics see God. A no doubt about it. Admitting you don't know how the world was createed and not believing in any one explanation makes me call you an agnostic.

Remember I do believe humans will figure it out one day, just by calculating (which in its turn is based on observations). I hardly believe anything written in the bible, and the probability of the existance of a god is very low to me. There is nothing which points me in the direction of the existance of any higher power. I don't know if that really classifies as agnostic...

I wasn't really trying to tie in morality with religion. I'm not so sure that with out organized religion we wouldn't have a moral society.

I'm not saying it's impossible to have a moral society without religion, but the switch from conservative Christianity to atheist 'liberty' went too quickly without having anything to replace the old morality. Bringing back morality, that's exactly what attracts me to this field of science.

Remember I do believe that the holy spirit resides in all of us and the concept of what is good is present in everyone. You can argue that we learn it from being taught it. I argue that we learn it naturally. There has never been any significant tests on human growing up in the wild to support either claim. And I think we can both agree that to conduct such studies would be wrong. So we may never get to the bottom of that one.

About two centuries of work of social scientists has just been redirected to the trash bin. Poor Emile Durkheim would turn in his grave if he read what you said there. There has been so much effort put into understanding the human learning process that it isn't necessary to experiment with humans raised in the wild. In today's world there's millions of children being neglected by their parents. The outcome is only too obvious - those that aren't taught the difference between good and bad, end up as anti-social beings. They simply never learned to interact with others. Or what about those who are taught the wrong morals? Kids who grow up in poor neighborhoods, hanging around the wrong friends, becoming criminals... How do you explain all of that, when  the holy spirit is supposed to tell us good from bad? Me personally, I'd rather believe in theories of social cohesion and behaviourism...

Some things in my opinion don't have any reason. Why are we born? We do we exist. Why do we need oxygen to live? Why does gravity keep us grounded on the Earth and keep us from flying into the unviverse? Does reason answer any of that? Can it? Can Science? And whys can never be answered. I'm not saying that the bible answers them. I just don't think about the whys because I'm confident we can't figure them out. We're here. We can figure out how to make here easier to cope with but we can never figure out why we're here, not with any science I've seen yet anyway.

What makes you think there's an answer for every "why"? What makes you think everything has a specified purpose? Is that because God supposedly made life on earth perfect? You get what I mean. If God's creation were perfect, Adam and Eve wouldn't have eaten that apple. War, homosexuality and atheism would've been nonexistent. The fact that there's so many unexplained "why's" can tell you two things.
* Not everything in life has a purpose. Not every "why" question has a fitting answer. However, every "how" does.
* God does exist and His ways are above ours. What's a "why" to us, is evident to Him.

You already know why I'm going for the first option.

I was raised with a religion that suits me and I choose to believe what I've been taught and what I've concluded myself. I guess in the end I don't want to believe that we just live for 80 or so years and die and that's it. I want to believe that there is something bigger, more premanent for us. Wishful thinking maybe but I have to believe in a spiritual connection and spiritual existence.

I know people see certain unexplained things as an act of God, and to them these things justify their faith in Him. But just how does one believe in the afterlife? Religions contradict each other when it comes to issues of life and death, and there is no proof of any afterlife (is there?). Where does all the blind faith come from?
 

Shallow

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Re: there is only one god
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2007, 01:02:46 PM »
Agnosticism - is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims—particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of God, gods, deities, or even ultimate reality—is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently unknowable due to the nature of subjective experience.


A cathloic is someone tat says for certain there is a God. An athiest is someone that says for certain there isn't one. An agnostic just admits to not knowing or not being able to know.



All those social studies are done with outside negative influences. I think people can be raised bad and learn to agree with what is wrong. I just don't think it naturally takes them over. The studies of kids with out parents and what not don't account for that.

Where you lean on the why wasn't the issue. Where I lean wasn't the issue. I don't think the whys will ever get answered by us. We'll either find out when we die or we'll just die.

The faith comes from desire. I want to live forever and keep going. And so do most people. They don't like the idea of their children dying young or disease taking people out of life early. Or it comes from people that have seen the unseen and passed it on down to their children. I guess which side you'd lean towards.
 

AboveTheLaw

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Re: there is only one god
« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2007, 04:52:43 PM »
^ From all your posts I take it you read "The God Delusion" inside out?
 

Shallow

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Re: there is only one god
« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2007, 06:49:16 PM »
^ From all your posts I take it you read "The God Delusion" inside out?


Never read it.


Who keeps propping me? I've never gotten to 100 before. Thanks.
 

AboveTheLaw

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Re: there is only one god
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2007, 08:49:28 PM »
I don't agree with everything in it. It's a good title nonetheless and not as biased as the title seems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion

After reading it a few times I got hold of a .pdf version, I'll send it if you want to read it.
 

Elevz

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Re: there is only one god
« Reply #58 on: December 14, 2007, 10:42:42 AM »
Who keeps propping me? I've never gotten to 100 before. Thanks.

I'm sorry, LOL. It's a tendency I have for people who enter a discussion with me :D
 

Shallow

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Re: there is only one god
« Reply #59 on: December 14, 2007, 11:45:16 AM »
Who keeps propping me? I've never gotten to 100 before. Thanks.

I'm sorry, LOL. It's a tendency I have for people who enter a discussion with me :D


I don't mind. It was just nice to see 3 digits for the first time. Here's a prop for you.