Is Jay-Z A Better Songwriter Than Tupac?

[kuruptDPG]

didnt jay z copy 2pac & biggie lyrics?

[D-Stress]

what even made you to make a poll like this?

would you expect an eastcoast rapper, beating a westcoast rapper on this website.

yeah lol...thats stupid.

[Elano]

In terms of skills as a rapper Jays better.

 

HELL no! Pac is hands down the greatest songwriter that hip hop has ever seen noone will ever come close to him.

  and like  Beatz and City's M-o--S-T said  2Pac= Poet

another horrible thread by Elano I would expect this from The Source, MTV or another NYC magazine, but on a westcoast forum

would you expect an eastcoast rapper, beating a westcoast rapper on this website.

pac was born on the east coast,IDIOT

[K.Dub]

In terms of skills as a rapper Jays better.

 

HELL no! Pac is hands down the greatest songwriter that hip hop has ever seen noone will ever come close to him.

  and like  Beatz and City's M-o--S-T said  2Pac= Poet

another horrible thread by Elano I would expect this from The Source, MTV or another NYC magazine, but on a westcoast forum

would you expect an eastcoast rapper, beating a westcoast rapper on this website.

pac was born on the east coast,IDIOT

Yeah, but he obviously repped the west. Wasn't Kurupt also born on the east, PA or something.

[Furor Teutonicus]

In order to even have a discussion, Jay Z would have to have made a better song than Pac.

Reasonable Doubt > any Pac album. But yes, it's all opinions.

Pac was a poet, but not really a good one. He did write some good lyrics, but mostly his material followed a simple formula. I used to be a huge fan of his and I'm not meaning to sound ncondescending toward whoever still is, but my opinion on him has changed somewhat...yes, he had a great voice and he was one of the hiphop culture's most charismatic leaders, but if you look at his lyrics outside the context of his personal biography, they were rather simple stuff. Most of what people tend to label "deep" consisted of simple statements made about society, the struggle of the black man, street violence, drugs etc., which there's nothing wrong about, but profound subject matter doesn't automatically generate profound lyricism and mostly Pac just scratched the surface on complex issues, saying nothing that wasn't being said by a ton of others, but articulating it in a way that, along with his persona, helped creating this image that is the way many people see him today. That's what he was really good at: Creating this image of himself............................................on a side note, all the gangsta lyrics were nothing special at all and the glaring contradictions ('hey, let's change society and be brothers, first I'll just have to peel 25 nigguz caps cause they looked at me in a way I don't like, Wessscoast beyotch') made Pac look nothing short of stupid at times. I still like Pac to some degree, but here's an argument why I think he's overrated.

As for Jigga, he is completely different. He's a more skillful rapper than Pac and, yes I'm saying so, probably more intelligent than Pac was. Those lyrics of his which are insightful in a way ("D'Evils", "Can I Live", "Song Cry") are not better than Pac's on a substantial level, but they're more skillfully written. But I find it hard to compare the two, Jay is too completely different in the way he views himself and wants to be viewed. He wants to be that dope rapper on top of things that nobody can fuck with, but neither does he want to articulate society's problems, nor does his music intertwine with his life in any significant way, which are two fundamental aspects to the man Tupac Shakur, and therefore, the question can hardly be fully answered.

That said, I do think Jay-Z is better at doing what he does than Pac, but he does something significantly different. Which kind of hiphop and subject matter appeals more to whom is a rather personal thing.

ok, I can understand your arguments. But if you use stylistic devices (punchlines, etc) doesn't mean you're a good songwriter. To me, CONTENT is more important for good songwriting, style comes second. Crooked I is also very skilled, but is he a good songwriter? Obviously not, since he isn't able to write songs that you could put on an album. I think good songwriting is when your songs are meaningful, have a message , people can associate etc... I see the skills you described more as "street rapper skills"
You can write that Pac's songs are contradicting/simple, but most of them are meaningful. And I can't say the same to jay's songs. He may have some songs which are substantial, but he always has to show how "cool" and rich he is, and I think he sounds to arrogant and egomaniac on his songs. And this part is usually dominant in his songs.
Of course, "you can define good songwriting skills" different, for example if you are able to write songs that are mass appealing, but my definition of songwriting is different.

I see your point, but I'll have to respectfully disagree here. The way I see it, you're reducing "good songwriting" to a core element of a specific type of songwriting (the deliver-a-message songwriting), leaving out the rest. I think, for example, that the best songwriting I've ever seen/heard is that of Bob Dylan around '65-'67...those are all songs that have no "message" in a classical sense, yet that is part of what makes them some of the most meaningful poetry of the 20th century. It's hard to get that across if you don't listen to Dylan, but what I'm basically saying is that it is not at all an inherent quality to good poetry or good songwriting to contain a message and that reversely, the fact something contains a message which might be totally right doesn't make that a great lyric per se. See, if I deliver you the following lines:

"Robert Mugabe's hunger for dictatorial power has left Zimbabwe in turmoil
The on-going war in Iraq is influenced by the international conquest for oil
Burma's militant government has spilled a lot of blood on its soil
And in Darfur, kids barely have anything to drink and in the desert, the water boils"

...I got four pretty important political subjects in four lines and I obviously deliver the message that things are kinda fucked up in some parts of the world. Yet, I definitely wouldn't pride myself on just having come up with good songwriting. All I've done is make a few shallow references to complex issues and insert a few cheap rhymes; and this is why I do indeed consider "stylistic devices" essential to good songwriting, because lyricism is a structural device in itself. If you want to analyze subject matter in a classical sense, you use prose and write an essay or a book, which allows you to get a differentiated look at things. And hence, if you choose to write lyrics, you do something that couldn't be done a lot better writing an essay. Great poetry could never be captured in prose - most of Pac's lyrics couls. And really, nobody would get away summing Pac's points up in a paper at college, because they're way too simple. The fact that he said things that might be considered important over a beat and flowed it nicely with that great voice of his might make him a good entertainer, but not a good lyricist. That's how I see it.

My problem is that rather I consider music as entertainment then as art, which influences my definition of songwriting , and I have the feeling you do it the other way arround. In modern pop culture, asthetic aspects are not that relevant for good songwriting anymore.
You use stylistic devices to support the content you want to mediate, therfore I see content as superior. I'll spend enough time with analyzing poetry in the next few months, so the last thing I do is to pay attention how complex his rhyhme schemes are. And I didn't want to express that content is the only aspect of songwriting, nor that every song has to have a message. I do know that Pac wasn't a great poet, and with my different background some of his messages seem strange/radical (same with Cube), but music is also about affection/emotion, Pac could express emotion with his voice, but also with his lyrics. Because he expresses himself in such direct/simple way. Pac had something to say, and you could feel his passion in almsot every song. Even if he seemed hypocritical because of his strong contradictions, but I would explain this contradiction because he was trapped, I think he def had a good heart, but he was supposed to act gangsta to sell records. I believe his "Changes mentality" is his authentic side. But bear in mind how young he was when he died, Pac never had the time to grow his beliefs or drop his childish gangta attitude or get wise. But I agree with you when you say that Jay is brighter than Pac, simply by the fact that Jigga was able to make his music to money, while Pac's trust in Suge and his childish behaviour when he dissed everybody who didn't participate in his feuds showed how naive he was sometimes.  Oh, I see that you already mentioned this to explain why he is seen in that way, but if I compare this with Jigga, I hardly feel anything when I hear him rap. The main reason might be his voice, but I also think it' because of his uninspiring subject matter in many of his songs.(I don't want to generalize this for all of his songs!!) Of course, since 2pac had to represent the gangsta image, his content is often similar to Jigga's,
but he didn't focus on himself that much. I rather hear a rapper talking the same shit of struggle and society again, than talking about his riches all the time. Of course this is personal preference like you said.
 
I see we can't agree here, since we focus on different things, but atleast there is a slight progress in understanding Jigga's "fans". I might be biased about him because he is imo very arrogant, therefore I'm sometimes very heated when talking about him.  But one thing I still can't understand: how come that anybody  in the world can stand his voice. It's a pain to listen to him more than 15 minutes :)j
One final thing: remember that Jigga is also just an entertainer, I say this because it sounded negative in your previous post

[Turf Hitta]

In order to even have a discussion, Jay Z would have to have made a better song than Pac.

Reasonable Doubt > any Pac album. But yes, it's all opinions.

Maybe if you're fuckin gay or something.

Right. I state my personal opinion, saying I like Jigga's widely acclaimed album more than your hero 2Pac's widely acclaimed albums. And over that innocuous statement, you catch feelings and throw the lamest insult even the internet knows at me...try again Stan

LOL for fuck's sake. I was kidding you idiot. But seriously, I own Reasonable Doubt and nothing about it is better than any of Pac's albums. Sorry.

[Kill]

^ Ok, lol, chill. It's just many rappers, particularly Pac, have way too many Stans running around the internet talking shit like that most seriously, so I didn't see you were kidding.

And I got all of Pac's non-posthumous albums (and several posthumous ones) and none of them is better than Reasonable Doubt. Sorry.

We won't get along in this thread


...oh yeah and Dr. Itor, replying to you will take some more time, I will later on

[stephen619]

HELL NO!!!

[Elano]

In terms of skills as a rapper Jays better.

 

HELL no! Pac is hands down the greatest songwriter that hip hop has ever seen noone will ever come close to him.

  and like  Beatz and City's M-o--S-T said  2Pac= Poet

another horrible thread by Elano I would expect this from The Source, MTV or another NYC magazine, but on a westcoast forum

would you expect an eastcoast rapper, beating a westcoast rapper on this website.

pac was born on the east coast,IDIOT

Yeah, but he obviously repped the west. Wasn't Kurupt also born on the east, PA or something.

ya,kurupt is a philadelphia native.
this poll is on outbound because pac was "just" reppin the west coast,but he wasn't a west coast native......so,its a poll about two east coast mcs

[Kill]

My problem is that rather I consider music as entertainment then as art, which influences my definition of songwriting , and I have the feeling you do it the other way arround. In modern pop culture, asthetic aspects are not that relevant for good songwriting anymore.

Those are two different angles, and you're not entirely wrong here. I do consider music entertainment though, it mostly depends on what I'm listening to. My favorite artists are those which combine entertainment with what, for the sake of simplicity, I'll refer to as "art"; Dylan would be one example - his music entertains me a lot - others would be The Beatles, Radiohead or Sonic Youth and there are, of course, many more. I do also listen to artists who are predominately interesting for their artistic approach, but if they fail to really entertain me, I won't bump their shit all the time, I'm not some kind of nerd. Music that is interesting mostly in an intellectual sense is something to listen to every once in a longer while, but not what I spend most of my time bumping. If I did, I wouldn't be discussing Pac and Jigga cause I'd be registered on some John Zorn forum.

The second part of this statement is where we seem to disagree to some extent. To get back to that and articulate it in the interrogative: If aesthetic aspects are negligeable in songwriting, then why choose songs as a means of expressing yourself? And if the answer is something like 'to reach and entertain people', then why is it good songwriting rather than just good entertainment? Cause that's my main point: Pac was a good entertainer, but to say that this, along with the fact that his entertainment contained a (pretty simple) message, made him a good songwriter goes against my concept of songwriting.
 

You use stylistic devices to support the content you want to mediate, therfore I see content as superior. I'll spend enough time with analyzing poetry in the next few months, so the last thing I do is to pay attention how complex his rhyhme schemes are. And I didn't want to express that content is the only aspect of songwriting, nor that every song has to have a message. I do know that Pac wasn't a great poet, and with my different background some of his messages seem strange/radical (same with Cube), but music is also about affection/emotion, Pac could express emotion with his voice, but also with his lyrics. Because he expresses himself in such direct/simple way. Pac had something to say, and you could feel his passion in almsot every song. Even if he seemed hypocritical because of his strong contradictions, but I would explain this contradiction because he was trapped, I think he def had a good heart, but he was supposed to act gangsta to sell records. I believe his "Changes mentality" is his authentic side. But bear in mind how young he was when he died, Pac never had the time to grow his beliefs or drop his childish gangta attitude or get wise. But I agree with you when you say that Jay is brighter than Pac, simply by the fact that Jigga was able to make his music to money, while Pac's trust in Suge and his childish behaviour when he dissed everybody who didn't participate in his feuds showed how naive he was sometimes.  Oh, I see that you already mentioned this to explain why he is seen in that way, but if I compare this with Jigga, I hardly feel anything when I hear him rap. The main reason might be his voice, but I also think it' because of his uninspiring subject matter in many of his songs.(I don't want to generalize this for all of his songs!!) Of course, since 2pac had to represent the gangsta image, his content is often similar to Jigga's,
but he didn't focus on himself that much. I rather hear a rapper talking the same shit of struggle and society again, than talking about his riches all the time. Of course this is personal preference like you said.

I agree partly. Pac did have a talent for getting his raw emotions across on records and delivering everything from his serious messages about society et al. to all the I'm-a-Wesside-thug-beyotch nursery school rhymes in a very credible and sometimes intriguing way. Again, at the risk of repeating myself, this has little to do with good songwriting; this is an aspect of good rapping and, what I started off saying Pac was indeed great at, very effectively creating an image of yourself as a person. It doesn't make his lyrics better, know what I mean?

I pretty much agree with the rest. Pac could have evolved into a better artist and possibly a more elaborate songwriter if he hadn't jumped the gun whenever something happened that would serve him and that bitch Suge as an excuse to start yet another beef, maybe, despite AEOM and The 7 Day Theory, he just shouldn't have joined Death Row. Maybe he should have considered the possibility that Dre didn't leave Death Row cause he was a fag (talking about childish attitudes), but because he knew what he was doing. Then it was too late and you know what happened. And the way things went it was a story to turn him into a legend, but to prevent him from becoming what he could have possibly become as an artist.
 

I see we can't agree here, since we focus on different things, but atleast there is a slight progress in understanding Jigga's "fans". I might be biased about him because he is imo very arrogant, therefore I'm sometimes very heated when talking about him.  But one thing I still can't understand: how come that anybody  in the world can stand his voice. It's a pain to listen to him more than 15 minutes :)j
One final thing: remember that Jigga is also just an entertainer, I say this because it sounded negative in your previous post

Now as for Jigga...I'm not really a fan of his, mind you. I came into this debate saying that I think he's brighter than Pac (which you seem to agree with, if perhaps not for the exact same reasons) and saying that the insightful songs he's written weren't any worse than Pac's. That said, I think Reasonable Doubt is a top 20 hiphop album and he's done some more nice stuff, but he's also done a lot of enormously tedious songs and I get as bored as you listening to "Girls, Girls, Girls" and stuff like that. I do think he's a skillful rapper and a good entertainer. Yes, he's arrogant, but in a more harmless way than some other rappers - he keeps bragging as a part of his style, but he's not like, e.g., KRS-ONE who thinks he's basically omniscient, Kanye West who gets butthurt for not winning an award, Dre who thinks it's ok to sign artists and tell them to go hibernating for five years before dropping them............he's a cocky guy, but it's all entertainment and a matter of taste. And yes, his voice isn't exactly great, I got used to it quickly though

[when it rains it pours]

I'll fuckin tie you to a fuckin bedpost wit yo asscheeks spread out and shit, righ, and put a hanger on the stove and let that shit sit for like a half hour, take it off and stick it in yo ass slow like tssssssssssssssssst

[K.Dub]

And I got all of Pac's non-posthumous albums (and several posthumous ones) and none of them is better than Reasonable Doubt. Sorry.

 

[Furor Teutonicus]

I make it short now and give just a few annotations to your post:

i don't want to drop aesthetic aspects, of course it's important. It's just not top of my order. To clear this up, we have to search a reliable definition of "good songwriting".
To sum it up, I agree that Jigga's rhymes are somehow more complex and clever.
I still think Pac was a great songwriter, he expressed himself in a direct/simple way, and despite his mainstream success, he had some deep lyrics. Of course,  deep is relative, like you said, Pac just scratched the surface, but it very rare and it was already rare in the 90's and in modern hip hop it is even more rare that a really "deep" artist has real success. Pac found a good way to balance this in the boundaries of his genre/the music business (MTV etc.).
to the intelligence discussion: I know you wrote it in connection with his lyrics, I just wanted to expand this a bit.

to go back to his authenticity: my explanation of his contradicting attitudes he expressed in his songs is not supposed to make his lyrics look better. There was a thread in the westcoast section
a few days where some people called him fake and shit, and I could see a similarity in your first post (of course in another way). You seem to be disturbed by this contradictions, me not.
I think that doesn't make his lyrics better, but also not worse.

ha, it was a wise decision to carefully put fan in quotation marks

[big mat]

imo, 2pac biggie nas ice cube big daddy kane and a lot of other ny and westcoast cats > jay-z

dont think i hate jay-z some of his albums are classics but dude is so unconsistant he'll come off fuckin wack or boring on more than 3/4 of his songs.

btw pac wasnt rapping always about the same shit. I dont see what songs like dear mama, 2 of amerikaz most wanted, california love and changes got in common. I think he was the most diverse he was speaking directly to the listenner

[Kill]

And I got all of Pac's non-posthumous albums (and several posthumous ones) and none of them is better than Reasonable Doubt. Sorry.

 

I make it short now and give just a few annotations to your post:

i don't want to drop aesthetic aspects, of course it's important. It's just not top of my order. To clear this up, we have to search a reliable definition of "good songwriting".
To sum it up, I agree that Jigga's rhymes are somehow more complex and clever.
I still think Pac was a great songwriter, he expressed himself in a direct/simple way, and despite his mainstream success, he had some deep lyrics. Of course,  deep is relative, like you said, Pac just scratched the surface, but it very rare and it was already rare in the 90's and in modern hip hop it is even more rare that a really "deep" artist has real success. Pac found a good way to balance this in the boundaries of his genre/the music business (MTV etc.).
to the intelligence discussion: I know you wrote it in connection with his lyrics, I just wanted to expand this a bit.

to go back to his authenticity: my explanation of his contradicting attitudes he expressed in his songs is not supposed to make his lyrics look better. There was a thread in the westcoast section
a few days where some people called him fake and shit, and I could see a similarity in your first post (of course in another way). You seem to be disturbed by this contradictions, me not.
I think that doesn't make his lyrics better, but also not worse.

ha, it was a wise decision to carefully put fan in quotation marks

No need to go in circles here, so I'll keep it very brief: We have different subjective definitions of what good songwriting is, but since we agree that Pac wasn't some kind of stylistic genius or major intellectual, yet a very good entertainer with a knack for delivering his message, I guess we can settle on that.

And my being disturbed by his contradictions is mostly limited to my view on people making him out to be some kind of prophet (that doesn't include you, but you know there's quite a bunch of people)...other rappers, from Big L putting a track like "Street Struck" on an album dedicated to killing nigguz to Nas, undecided between community preacher and drug lord, are no better and this contradictory attitude is so prevalent in hiphop that I'm quite used to it. I draw the line when someone spits serious hatred, racism, religious bigotry, etc. Still, when the discussion comes up about Pac being the lyrical G.O.A.T. he in my opinion just isn't, this has to be mentioned

...and yeah, those quotation marks saved your ass there