Author Topic: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate  (Read 248 times)

Infinite Trapped in 1996

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Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« on: August 02, 2008, 08:27:18 PM »
7even and anybody else into Buddist teachings.  I'd like to debate you, respectfully. 

I will pose a couple of items and would like to here your response.  Then I will probably question your response, and we will go from there.

Buddism teaches to not look at the form.  That we are all one, that pain, suffering, joy, pain...all come from the same source, that once you've said "suffering" you've given form to something that has no form.  And that once you say "other" in regards to a person or group you don't like you've given form to something that has no form, because we are all One.

Here's my problem with that...

Item 1:  Saying that people are "one" is not really logical or useful.  Because, if you say people are "one" they are saying that you shouldn't value one person over another.  But a Buddist values Buddist teachings over Nazi teachings.  So if a teaching and a teacher has a value, then how is it that people are all "one" and don't have value?   Our time on this Earth is limited.  So you would be a fool not to place value on different people, because if you don't value some people more than others, you would then waste your time and energy with people who may harm you and be less beneficial to you.


Item 2:  The idea that there is no difference between suffering and happiness.   Again, if there is no difference between suffering and happiness, then how can there be a difference between being a Nazi and being a Buddist?  A Buddist is a Buddist because it makes him feel better and makes him feel happier.  He may claim that he is foresaking the materialistic joys of the world but that is only because he VALUES Buddist teachings more than chasing after material gain.  So it is only that he has a different value system... it is not that he craves happiness and derides suffering any less than the one addicted to wealth.

*******

"I will make records as big or bigger than Death Row".   -Dre, Source 1996

"I didn't do nothing but make people money and I didn't leave nobody high and dry.  Any album (on death row) people are going to check for.  But it's time for Dre to worry about Dre.  I'm focused on the new Snoop Doggs, not like that but you know what I mean."

Dre -  Source 1996 cover

"Eminem will be bigger than Michael Jackson as long as he doesn't change."

-Dre, Rolling Stones mag 1999 Em cover

********
 

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2008, 02:18:06 AM »

I haven't read the entire Dhammapada (the compiled series of things Buddha said for the benefit of the world), but probably enough to answer your question and ive read heaps of Zen buddhist material.

... I also know buddhists and most haven't even read as much as that...study of the Dhammapada is not a prerequisite of being a Buddhist, but rather more so; your actions are.
 I'd say im 'into Buddhist teachings' enough to answer your question though, but if I don't you could always read the Dhammapada yourself, for although study of it is not essential in the sense of how the Koran is to a Muslim, the Dhammapada is still cited as the foundation of Buddhism, it deals mostly with what is right action and conduct in this world as taught by Buddha (http://www.serve.com/cmtan/Dhammapada/)...and Zen buddhist poetry aims to act as a catalyst to enlightenment.







Buddism teaches to not look at the form.  That we are all one, that pain, suffering, joy, pain...all come from the same source, that once you've said "suffering" you've given form to something that has no form.  And that once you say "other" in regards to a person or group you don't like you've given form to something that has no form, because we are all One.


I do not agree that Buddhism teaches people to not look at form. In all respect this is a wrong assumption for you to begin with and your following argument (Items 1 & 2) appears to be based on this assumption. But it is very understandable how you were lead to this assumption, because in Zen Buddhism and even in parts of the Dhammapada; 'emptiness' and 'formlessness' is used to describe enlightenment.

"Form is emptiness, emptiness is form."
- from the Heart Sutra.

Now we must remember that these are only descriptive terms and 'emptiness' and 'formlessness' is the Buddhist way of saying that the Ultimate Reality (or God, Allah) is undescribeable.
This is much in the same way as the Koran forbids the portrayal or characterization of Allah or in the sameway as Christian theologians view God as beyond our comprehension.

That is why in Zen poetry the aim is not to tell you how reality is; but rather the poetry itself is simply attempting to allude to this Ultimate Reality and the realization of that can only come from the individual, so it is not the technicalities or particularities of the words themselves or even the words; but instead that realization which they attempt to invoke, they simply attempt to act as a catalyst for the reader's own realization of the Ultimate Reality.


If you try to aim for it, you are turning away from it.

-Dogen.
 

7even

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2008, 09:12:20 AM »
Well, first I have to clarify that I have just been looking for an ideology that fits my thoughts and fascinates me, so to me buddhism/taoism was eastern philosophy to experience, not a religion to follow. So if piece A pertains to me, it's cool, but if piece B doesn't, then I won't go out of my way and adapt myself to it. It's been a while since I been really into it, not that I disagree with it now or anything, I'm just more focused on western philosophy now.

This said, I'm trying to deal with your post with the best of my ability:

About suffering:
Well, it is this, in my opinion very true concept, that most people have already heard of, when it is said that desire leads to suffering, and to elude suffering you have to limit your desire. If you have no wishes, all your wishes will be fulfilled. This concept also implies that you won't exploit the next man.
Quote
So it is only that he has a different value system...
Of course, isn't that always  the case, I mean, with basically everything? However, as the Ying-Yang symbol illustrates, "good" and "bad" are never in entire disconnection. Which again implies that a Buddhist shall never be attracted to fundamentalism. Buddhism has no fixed dogma.

As for talking about form, I'll show you some quotes and then you will probably feel how the concept of form is used in eastern philosophy:
Verses from Tao Te King:
Look at it, it cannot be seen
It is called colorless
Listen to it, it cannot be heard
It is called noiseless
Reach for it, it cannot be held
It is called formless
These three cannot be completely unraveled
So they are combined into one

Above it, not bright
Below it, not dark
Continuing endlessly, cannot be named
It returns back into nothingness
Thus it is called the form of the formless
The image of the imageless
This is called enigmatic
Confront it, its front cannot be seen
Follow it, its back cannot be seen

Wield the Tao of the ancients
To manage the existence of today
One can know the ancient beginning
It is called the Tao Axiom
-----------
The great square has no corners
The great vessel is late in completion
The great music is imperceptible in sound
The great image has no form
The Tao is hidden and nameless
Yet it is only the Tao
That excels in giving and completing everything

-----------
One quote taken from pop culture, lol, can be heard on Masta Killa's track as well:
"You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can crash, drip, flow...be water my friend."

Water is something that is often taken as a symbol to illustrate eastern philosophy. It is soft, yet it overcomes everything. You can not punch or hurt it. It is the source of life. Water has no form.  When you attribute a form to something, you limit it.
Cause I don't care where I belong no more
What we share or not I will ignore
And I won't waste my time fitting in
Cause I don't think contrast is a sin
No, it's not a sin
 

Infinite Trapped in 1996

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2008, 12:24:16 AM »
Okay... so both of you mentioned  how Buddism helps you to see your "ultimate reality" and 7even mentioned "becoming water".. and so on... now that sounds ill in a Wu-Tang track and it is insightful...

but now lets take it a step further.  Because truth has a use.  So what is the use and benefit of seeing the "ultimate reality that we are One and formless" or as 7even said that we should "be like water".

Explain to me how those teachings are beneficial/useful in ones life? How does knowing those things affect ones daily life?
*******

"I will make records as big or bigger than Death Row".   -Dre, Source 1996

"I didn't do nothing but make people money and I didn't leave nobody high and dry.  Any album (on death row) people are going to check for.  But it's time for Dre to worry about Dre.  I'm focused on the new Snoop Doggs, not like that but you know what I mean."

Dre -  Source 1996 cover

"Eminem will be bigger than Michael Jackson as long as he doesn't change."

-Dre, Rolling Stones mag 1999 Em cover

********
 

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2008, 03:45:32 AM »
Well, first of all,

the Dhammapada dosn't primarily focus on trying to get people to see this 'Ultimate Reality',


that wasn't Buddha's aim with that, although he himself saw the 'ultimate reality' but seeing that isn't necessarily the basis for anything and not for being a good person or even a buddhist;

the Dhammapada focuses mostly on how to lead a good life, but realization of this 'Ultimate Reality' is not touted as necessary to this end.

The secret of health for both mind and body is not to mourn for the past,
not to worry about the future, or not to anticipate troubles,
 but to live in the present moment wisely and earnestly.



In Buddhist countries, if you wanted to persue a realization of enlightenment seriously you would become a monk, but even then you were not gaurunteed enlightenment by anybody.

So not even to the clergy was enlightenment guarunteed, infact nobody is gaurunteed anything and especially not enlightenment,

but it is said that if you pursue this genuinely to yourself, you will not be denied, I believe that.


Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.


So a buddhist may never see this 'Ultimate Reality'

or people may attain vision of the 'utimate reality' and then realise there is nothing actually 'ultimate' about it and it is simply reality!

I gained nothing at all from Supreme Enlightenment, and for that very reason it is called Supreme Enlightenment.





Now Buddha understood the difficulty in this for the average John Doe, because of course you cannot provide people a crash course in enlightenment, so instead he attempted to provide his outline of what he learnt from his enlightenment and this series of teachings can be found in the Dhammapada.

 I personally find Buddha's and Zen teachings useful in my own personal experience through this life, like most knowledge and wisdom it adds context to life's events, but they are also words or wisdom I find echo in heaps of other thangs so 'it' ain't confined to Buddhism, as far as I know my awareness of life didn't begin with an interest in Buddhism and neither is it limited to my interest in that, nor is it supposed to be....


If you really, genuinely want to learn more about buddhism and life in general for yourself as a person I recommend you look into it yourself, because basically it is not really based on religious practice, program or doctrine, but rather through experience and application. Peep the Dhammapada and find yoself a book on Zen and contemplate that within the context of your own life.

But anyway keep asking questions if you feel you need it and we'll try to answer again...but I'm basically saying them question you are asking about Buddhism you gotta look into it yourself and not base your perceptions on it on what some random dudes on the internet or the street have to say about it...




For sake of this debate though, id say word; all living things are One at their essence, as all souls are of the same originally, however in this life Buddhism teaches that we are seperated by our particularities of this life.
The benefits of seeing/realizing enlightenment are great, as I said it is indescribeable itself, but having experienced that; you gain a greater appreciation and respect for life and this world and emphasis with it's suffering.  But don't forget Buddha's way through meditaion and contemplation was not the only one way and Buddha acknowledged that theire are indeed many, as many ways possible as there are those who wish to seek. I myself have never meditated a day in my life.



All conditioned things are impermanent. Work out your salvation with diligence.
-the last words of Buddha.


« Last Edit: August 04, 2008, 03:53:16 AM by ...thus spaketh the Overfiend »
 

7even

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2008, 07:34:39 AM »
Most and for all, Buddhism is something you have to experience yourself and not something you ask a nigga stuff about only to ridicule from the sideline. I know for a fact that praying 5 times a day to that Allah nigga and making my wife wear concealing stuff won't be useful/beneficial in my life, so I'm not down with it. If that's your thing, fine, you do you and I do me, nigga.
Cause I don't care where I belong no more
What we share or not I will ignore
And I won't waste my time fitting in
Cause I don't think contrast is a sin
No, it's not a sin
 

Infinite Trapped in 1996

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2008, 07:12:13 PM »
Most and for all, Buddhism is something you have to experience yourself and not something you ask a nigga stuff about only to ridicule from the sideline. I know for a fact that praying 5 times a day to that Allah nigga and making my wife wear concealing stuff won't be useful/beneficial in my life, so I'm not down with it. If that's your thing, fine, you do you and I do me, nigga.

Look nicca.... I said I wanted to respectfully debate with you nicca, so I don't know if you know anything about debate, nicca, but if its a debate that means I don't have to agree to everything you say, nicca, and if your idea of debating...nicca... is to just say, "you do you and I'll do me" and then make a stick man out of what you assume is me... then you don't know shit about how to make a respectful debate, nicca.
*******

"I will make records as big or bigger than Death Row".   -Dre, Source 1996

"I didn't do nothing but make people money and I didn't leave nobody high and dry.  Any album (on death row) people are going to check for.  But it's time for Dre to worry about Dre.  I'm focused on the new Snoop Doggs, not like that but you know what I mean."

Dre -  Source 1996 cover

"Eminem will be bigger than Michael Jackson as long as he doesn't change."

-Dre, Rolling Stones mag 1999 Em cover

********
 

Infinite Trapped in 1996

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2008, 08:07:59 PM »
Well, first of all,

the Dhammapada dosn't primarily focus on trying to get people to see this 'Ultimate Reality',


that wasn't Buddha's aim with that, although he himself saw the 'ultimate reality' but seeing that isn't necessarily the basis for anything and not for being a good person or even a buddhist;

the Dhammapada focuses mostly on how to lead a good life, but realization of this 'Ultimate Reality' is not touted as necessary to this end.

The secret of health for both mind and body is not to mourn for the past,
not to worry about the future, or not to anticipate troubles,
 but to live in the present moment wisely and earnestly.



In Buddhist countries, if you wanted to persue a realization of enlightenment seriously you would become a monk, but even then you were not gaurunteed enlightenment by anybody.

So not even to the clergy was enlightenment guarunteed, infact nobody is gaurunteed anything and especially not enlightenment,

but it is said that if you pursue this genuinely to yourself, you will not be denied, I believe that.


Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.


So a buddhist may never see this 'Ultimate Reality'

or people may attain vision of the 'utimate reality' and then realise there is nothing actually 'ultimate' about it and it is simply reality!

I gained nothing at all from Supreme Enlightenment, and for that very reason it is called Supreme Enlightenment.





Now Buddha understood the difficulty in this for the average John Doe, because of course you cannot provide people a crash course in enlightenment, so instead he attempted to provide his outline of what he learnt from his enlightenment and this series of teachings can be found in the Dhammapada.

 I personally find Buddha's and Zen teachings useful in my own personal experience through this life, like most knowledge and wisdom it adds context to life's events, but they are also words or wisdom I find echo in heaps of other thangs so 'it' ain't confined to Buddhism, as far as I know my awareness of life didn't begin with an interest in Buddhism and neither is it limited to my interest in that, nor is it supposed to be....


If you really, genuinely want to learn more about buddhism and life in general for yourself as a person I recommend you look into it yourself, because basically it is not really based on religious practice, program or doctrine, but rather through experience and application. Peep the Dhammapada and find yoself a book on Zen and contemplate that within the context of your own life.

But anyway keep asking questions if you feel you need it and we'll try to answer again...but I'm basically saying them question you are asking about Buddhism you gotta look into it yourself and not base your perceptions on it on what some random dudes on the internet or the street have to say about it...




For sake of this debate though, id say word; all living things are One at their essence, as all souls are of the same originally, however in this life Buddhism teaches that we are seperated by our particularities of this life.
The benefits of seeing/realizing enlightenment are great, as I said it is indescribeable itself, but having experienced that; you gain a greater appreciation and respect for life and this world and emphasis with it's suffering.  But don't forget Buddha's way through meditaion and contemplation was not the only one way and Buddha acknowledged that theire are indeed many, as many ways possible as there are those who wish to seek. I myself have never meditated a day in my life.



All conditioned things are impermanent. Work out your salvation with diligence.
-the last words of Buddha.




As I said in the thread title... I didn't start this thread so I could learn more about Buddism I started it because I wanted to debate.  I've already studied and practiced many Buddist concepts thru Islamic Sufism which is quite similar.

Anyway, back to the debate... if you don't mind...

You said the purpose wasn't to find the "ultimate reality" but rather to live a "good life".  Well, according to who's objective standard are we supposed to live a "good life"?   

Is being "good" raising a family, picket fence, being a good citizen, following Bush's laws?  Waving the flag, being "with him" on his war on terrorism.  Being on the lookout for suspicious A-rabs that might be potential terrorists?  Being a good little tax slave?

Is being good, submitting myself to a life of poverty as a Tibetan monk, shaving my head, meditating all day, going around and begging the local population for change to feed me, and eating off their hard labor?

Next point, you said if I "pursue it (enlightenment), I will not be denied".  By this you probably mean that the search is the way, and that enlightenment is in seeking not in attainment.  Well what is enlightenment then?  And how would one know when they find it or are experiencing it?  if they are in fact searching for it how can they be experiencing it at the same time?  When does one stop searching and begin living?


Next point, you said the purpose of life is to live in the present moment... But there is a use to looking forward and backward or else people would not do it.  It may be that one's current situation or environment is harmful and it is more beneficial to their mind to derive inspiration from the past or hope from the future.

Last point, you said don't search on the outside but search within... Well, every experience we encounter on the "outside" adds another ingridient to our personality, and therefore, our inner world is colored with the experiences and encounters we face in the outside world.  Certain scenary or faces and environments we encounter on the outside inspire inner well being.  So it is foolish to think we must force ourselves to make the best of a bad situation or environment, because we could waste precious time in our lives doing that, when it would be much easier to instead find an outer environment that is already pleasing to us. 





*******

"I will make records as big or bigger than Death Row".   -Dre, Source 1996

"I didn't do nothing but make people money and I didn't leave nobody high and dry.  Any album (on death row) people are going to check for.  But it's time for Dre to worry about Dre.  I'm focused on the new Snoop Doggs, not like that but you know what I mean."

Dre -  Source 1996 cover

"Eminem will be bigger than Michael Jackson as long as he doesn't change."

-Dre, Rolling Stones mag 1999 Em cover

********
 

Australian Bastard

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2008, 09:12:02 PM »
Please don't say you've already studied or looked into Buddhism until you have already done so, I myself have read Sufi poetry and other stuff that is similar, but it would be ignorant for me to just disregard everything else similar based upon that similarity without looking at it myself, as it would be for you too.


The good life standard is according to the Dhammapada (but that is the short answer because the Dhammapada teaches you not to rely on it like some people lean on their holy books, rather salvation comes from oneself) and no; being a monk isn't necessarily the good life, as I illustrated in my last post; it is not necessarily a requirement of the good life to become a monk, I'll disregard the rest of your tirade on Bush and taxes, etc.

however deep your knowledge of scriptures,
it is no more than a strand of hair
in the vastness of space;
however important appears
your worldy experience,
it is but a drop of water in a deep ravine.

-Tokusan.


Now about enlightenment; personally I believe for me it is in both the searching as much as the attainment, I feel you can't attain it without the searching, if you just had it without the context of your search it would not be enlightenment and if you have it without any context you will not know for yourself if you are on that path (more on this towards the end of the post.....) As for what is enlightenment itself, as I said it is indescribeable, it can be described but always imperfectly, so that is why in Buddhist poetry and art it is alluded to but is never described utterly and fully because that is impossible.


there is no beginning to practice
nor end to enlightenment;

there is no beginning to enlightenment
nor end to practice.


-Dogen.


Onto the next point, sure life is about living in the moment and by that I did not imply that the looking to the past or present is irrelevant as you seem to have again assumed.
It is hard to explain this part in my own words, but this being in the present is a characteristic of enlightenment and the good life; it is hard to explain in my own word so heres what the Dhammapada has to convey about that, it starts with your own mind;





Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox.

Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

``He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who harbour such thoughts hatred is not appeased.

``He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred is appeased.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hate is not overcome by hate; by Love (Metta) alone is hate appeased. This is an eternal law.

The others know not that in this quarrel we perish; those of them who realise it, have their quarrels calmed thereby.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


^I see this as having far reaching implications for oneself, not just with love or hate, but understanding and how one genuinely pursues it.
Also enlightenment should not be seen as some different place,  instead, it is identical to the world or universe humans experience in this life, but it is state of mind that is different through enlightenment.


Now onto you're last point; I agree you cannot ignore the outer world, but by saying that peace comes from within was I discounting the outer world? Again your posts are laden with assumptions. But I'll assume you are capable of such a thing as free and lateral thinking.  ;)
But like the quote from the Dhammapada above, its not so much about withdrawing into ones own mind, it is more about building peace within yourself so that you can build on the outside.

 



« Last Edit: August 04, 2008, 09:38:25 PM by ...thus spaketh Overfiend »
 

Infinite Trapped in 1996

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2008, 10:18:08 PM »


Please don't say you've already studied or looked into Buddhism until you have already done so, I myself have read Sufi poetry and other stuff that is similar, but it would be ignorant for me to just disregard everything else similar based upon that similarity without looking at it myself, as it would be for you too.


But as I said above, I have "practiced" the idealogy and way that you are advocating and expressing... only under a different name... it was called "sufism" (or also I intensely studied and practiced James Redfield's Celestine Prophecy series and he admittedly borrows from Buddism)  instead of "Buddism" but all the ideas and practices you are expressing were contained within it.  And no, I'm not talking about reading a few Rumi poems (as your sticman caricature of me assumes)... but rather I travelled and studied with an Islamic group called the Jammat Tabligh and so many of their ideas and practices paralell everything your saying only they have some additional and minor differences like beards and dress like the prophet Muhammad's "sunnah" rather than the shaved heads of the Buddists.  But all the principles of piety, humility, content, finding the beauty in your suffering, your search for truth and insight, looking inward, self-denail and so on and so forth are present in much the same way.





The good life standard is according to the Dhammapada (but that is the short answer because the Dhammapada teaches you not to rely on it like some people lean on their holy books, rather salvation comes from oneself) and no; being a monk isn't necessarily the good life, as I illustrated in my last post; it is not necessarily a requirement of the good life to become a monk, I'll disregard the rest of your tirade on Bush and taxes, etc.

however deep your knowledge of scriptures,
it is no more than a strand of hair
in the vastness of space;
however important appears
your worldy experience,
it is but a drop of water in a deep ravine.

-Tokusan.


Now about enlightenment; personally I believe for me it is in both the searching as much as the attainment, I feel you can't attain it without the searching, if you just had it without the context of your search it would not be enlightenment and if you have it without any context you will not know for yourself if you are on that path (more on this towards the end of the post.....) As for what is enlightenment itself, as I said it is indescribeable, it can be described but always imperfectly, so that is why in Buddhist poetry and art it is alluded to but is never described utterly and fully because that is impossible.


there is no beginning to practice
nor end to enlightenment;

there is no beginning to enlightenment
nor end to practice.


-Dogen.


Onto the next point, sure life is about living in the moment and by that I did not imply that the looking to the past or present is irrelevant as you seem to have again assumed.
It is hard to explain this part in my own words, but this being in the present is a characteristic of enlightenment and the good life; it is hard to explain in my own word so heres what the Dhammapada has to convey about that, it starts with your own mind;





Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox.

Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

``He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who harbour such thoughts hatred is not appeased.

``He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred is appeased.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hate is not overcome by hate; by Love (Metta) alone is hate appeased. This is an eternal law.

The others know not that in this quarrel we perish; those of them who realise it, have their quarrels calmed thereby.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


^I see this as having far reaching implications for oneself, not just with love or hate, but understanding and how one genuinely pursues it.
Also enlightenment should not be seen as some different place,  instead, it is identical to the world or universe humans experience in this life, but it is state of mind that is different through enlightenment.


Now onto you're last point; I agree you cannot ignore the outer world, but by saying that peace comes from within was I discounting the outer world? Again your posts are laden with assumptions. But I'll assume you are capable of such a thing as free and lateral thinking.  ;)
But like the quote from the Dhammapada above, its not so much about withdrawing into ones own mind, it is more about building peace within yourself so that you can build on the outside.

 

Most of the rest of your post was detailing how the "good life" consists of carrying a pure mind and heart.  And that if actions are done with good intention and pure mind then the results are will be good.

But this is simply not true.  There is a natural cause and effect relationship between our actions and their consequences regardless of whether or not they are done with a pure and clean mind or a perverted mind.  To deny the natural consequences that exist resulting from our actions is a recipe for dissapointment.

Let me give you and example.  You may befriend me as a gesture done with a pure and clean mind with love in your heart for my general well-being.  Yet, severely bad consequences could result.  I may take advantage of you, and demand you to do many things on my behalf, which distracts you from giving time and energy to the people who really do love and care for you and would not harm you but rather bring benefit to your life.  And in the end I am ungrateful of your help and both you and I suffer bad consequences for your supposedly "pure" actions.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 01:37:14 AM by Abdul-Infinite »
*******

"I will make records as big or bigger than Death Row".   -Dre, Source 1996

"I didn't do nothing but make people money and I didn't leave nobody high and dry.  Any album (on death row) people are going to check for.  But it's time for Dre to worry about Dre.  I'm focused on the new Snoop Doggs, not like that but you know what I mean."

Dre -  Source 1996 cover

"Eminem will be bigger than Michael Jackson as long as he doesn't change."

-Dre, Rolling Stones mag 1999 Em cover

********
 

Chief

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2008, 03:40:13 AM »
you're such a dickhead infinite.
 

Australian Bastard

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2008, 05:16:35 AM »


Please don't say you've already studied or looked into Buddhism until you have already done so, I myself have read Sufi poetry and other stuff that is similar, but it would be ignorant for me to just disregard everything else similar based upon that similarity without looking at it myself, as it would be for you too.


But as I said above, I have "practiced" the idealogy and way that you are advocating and expressing... only under a different name... it was called "sufism" (or also I intensely studied and practiced James Redfield's Celestine Prophecy series and he admittedly borrows from Buddism)  instead of "Buddism" but all the ideas and practices you are expressing were contained within it.  And no, I'm not talking about reading a few Rumi poems (as your sticman caricature of me assumes)... but rather I travelled and studied with an Islamic group called the Jammat Tabligh and so many of their ideas and practices paralell everything your saying only they have some additional and minor differences like beards and dress like the prophet Muhammad's "sunnah" rather than the shaved heads of the Buddists.  But all the principles of piety, humility, content, finding the beauty in your suffering, your search for truth and insight, looking inward, self-denail and so on and so forth are present in much the same way.


I feel you should because you're ideas of Buddhism are filled with some wrong assumptions about the faith. Assumptions that could be cleared and I probably would not have to dispel them for you if you just did the knowledge for yourself.  If I wanted to learn about Islam for instance, I wouldn't go on the internet and debate with people who call themself Muslims (not that you shouldn't but you should do some knowledge for yourself first), I would read Islamic scriptures myself beforehand. I could say i've read Christian and Jewish literature and that I don't have to look at Islamic literature because Islam is a composite of various facets of those other faiths...but of course that would be an ignorant assumption wouldn't it now? I myself would not feel  I would be doing any area of knowledge any justice without studying it myself so I wouldn't have to throw misplaced assumptions at people and let's face it nobody likes that. But anyway for the record; I don't mind debating with you and I think you mostly are a dope poster, I'm just saying, ya know, do the knowledge for yourself first. 






Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
 -Buddha.

...only after observation and analysis, when you find that everything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
-Buddha.






Most of the rest of your post was detailing how the "good life" consists of carrying a pure mind and heart.  And that if actions are done with good intention and pure mind then the results are will be good.

But this is simply not true.  There is a natural cause and effect relationship between our actions and their consequences regardless of whether or not they are done with a pure and clean mind or a perverted mind.  To deny the natural consequences that exist resulting from our actions is a recipe for dissapointment.

Let me give you and example.  You may befriend me as a gesture done with a pure and clean mind with love in your heart for my general well-being.  Yet, severely bad consequences could result.  I may take advantage of you, and demand you to do many things on my behalf, which distracts you from giving time and energy to the people who really do love and care for you and would not harm you but rather bring benefit to your life.  And in the end I am ungrateful of your help and both you and I suffer bad consequences for your supposedly "pure" actions.





Buddha said;

"Friendship is the only cure for hatred,
the only guarantee of peace."


and


“Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared.”



But, Buddha also said;

"He who loves 50 people has 50 woes; he who loves no one has no woes.”



So...the Buddha is saying how kindness brings empathy with others but also woe and often shared suffering with other's suffering.


The Dhammapda teaches that kindness (metta) needs to be balanced with wisdom (panna) when living among others. Otherwise one may find one’s kindness being taken advantage of and abused leading one to great suffering (dukkha).

Buddha learnt this the hard way, the story goes, after living through different extremes.

Buddhism is not a blind religion, it is science of the mind (refer back to that part of the Dhammapda on the mind, its actually the first verse of the Dhamapada). Its very much a seeing religion, being able to see and understand (panna) things with one’s own eye of wisdom (the unpolluted mind), where one reflects on the situations, problems and issues encountered with a clear mind and then formulates a skillful response.




Let us first cultivate adequate wisdom and loving kindness within ourselves so we can convert evil minds to saintly minds.

-Buddhist Monk Henepola Gunaratna.




 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 06:23:56 AM by Buddha smoketh the Overfiend »
 

Australian Bastard

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2008, 06:42:55 AM »
[But as I said above, I have "practiced" the idealogy and way that you are advocating and expressing... only under a different name... it was called "sufism" (or also I intensely studied and practiced James Redfield's Celestine Prophecy series and he admittedly borrows from Buddism)  instead of "Buddism" but all the ideas and practices you are expressing were contained within it.  And no, I'm not talking about reading a few Rumi poems (as your sticman caricature of me assumes)... but rather I travelled and studied with an Islamic group called the Jammat Tabligh and so many of their ideas and practices paralell everything your saying only they have some additional and minor differences like beards and dress like the prophet Muhammad's "sunnah" rather than the shaved heads of the Buddists.   But all the principles of piety, humility, content, finding the beauty in your suffering, your search for truth and insight, looking inward, self-denail and so on and so forth are present in much the same way.



Well im not from the Islamic group called whateverthefuck (as your stickman caricature of Buddhism assumed). Thats your assumptions again. You know that bigotted people always assume shit about other people?
I could also be ignorant and say 'I've seen Muslims on TV and basically all the ideas and practices that Osama bin Laden preaches is the same as what all Muslims believe and although not all Muslims have beards, basically all the principles of 'slavedom to a mystery god and promises of sexual rewards in the afterlife having taken the life of an infidel and so on and so forth are present in much the way.'

Do the knowledge son, before you do the wisdom. If you want to learn about anything in life, study it for yourself first, don't go through life resting upon generalisations gained from other human-beings.

A fool who recognises his own ignorance is thereby in fact a wise man, but a
fool who considers himself wise -- that is what one really calls a fool.
 

-Gautama Buddha

***

"finding the beauty in your suffering"


I don't really see it that way,


Id say;


"find wisdom and understanding in your suffering".



Hell is not punishment, it's training.
-Shunryu Suzuki
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 07:40:46 PM by Buddha smoketh the Overfiend »
 

Infinite Trapped in 1996

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2008, 06:39:24 PM »
For the third time, let me again explain the my reason for making this thread was not to "learn" Buddism.  So please stop telling me to go and read and study for myself and so on and so forth. I understand that you don't consider my previous studies in Sufism or James Redfield's Celestine Prophecy or Buddism itself to be sufficient, but right now, I have niether the time or money to go spend 40 years as a Tibetan monk just so I can have permission to debate with you.  

A debate is usually two opposing viewpoints, if I already agreed with you then there would be no debate, too much agreement kills a chat.  

And then you called me a bigot for supposedly "assuming" you were "from Islamic group whateverthefuck".  Which I obviously never did.  

Now... on to the part where you actually did a decent job of debating me rather than just calling me a bigot and telling me to go read for myself......

You offered quotes saying something to the effect of..."hell is a training" and  "we are shaped by our thoughts, and with a pure mind joy follows".  

But that is only a half-truth and half the equation.  We have to get the things "on the outside" that bring us happiness "inside our minds".  For example, if the Budda craves solitude and meditation then he has to be in the right environment "on the outside" to get the positive results he experiences "on the inside".   Maybe he needs a peaceful and quiet place for meditation.  Or maybe the Buddah is so incredible he could be in a blazing hellfire with Rob Zombie music playing at high volumes and still be "training" and in peaceful meditation.

But still, the origional point remains.  There is one environment which is MORE SUITABLE for meditation, or else monastaries would be in crowded streets rather than quiet meadows.

Therefore, the point has to be recognized, that it is two fold, you have to get desirable circumstances "on the outside" to experience greater mental well-being "on the inside".

So actually, we are shaped by a combination of our mind and our environment.  Buddah had to experience the things "on the outside" that led to his "innerstate of well-being".

On Friendship-  The Buddah claims that a thousand candles can be lit from a single candle and that that candle is never diminished.  That sounds very nice...

But unfortunately for master Buddah we are not candles, we are people with limited time and resources.  Money is a resource just as time is a resource.  Our money and time in this life is limited.

So just as you go to the grocery store and pick out the cereal you like most to spend your limited money on... you also pick out the people that would benefit you most to spend your limited time on.  There is one cereal that you enjoy more than the others and there are some people who you would enjoy more as a friend than the other.  To say they are all the same and that, like a candle, you will not be diminished in the least by wasting your limited time on harmful people, is foolish.

But I guess it's okay, as long as you use wisdom?  Well, why befriend harmful people at all in the first place?  Why even waste your time?  Why waste our time "training" and "converting evil mind" when we could simply let ourselves go and enjoy the company of people we like?

Maybe Buddah enjoyed suffering and "converting evil minds"... maybe it gave him a great sense of confidence and well-being.  Then that is well and good for him.  But I wouldn't want him as a friend.  I wouldn't want a friend who was spending his limited time and resources "converting evil minds".  How would such a person have much time left to give to someone like me, who doesn't have an evil mind?



 
*******

"I will make records as big or bigger than Death Row".   -Dre, Source 1996

"I didn't do nothing but make people money and I didn't leave nobody high and dry.  Any album (on death row) people are going to check for.  But it's time for Dre to worry about Dre.  I'm focused on the new Snoop Doggs, not like that but you know what I mean."

Dre -  Source 1996 cover

"Eminem will be bigger than Michael Jackson as long as he doesn't change."

-Dre, Rolling Stones mag 1999 Em cover

********
 

Australian Bastard

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2008, 09:40:14 PM »
I understand that you don't consider my previous studies in Sufism or James Redfield's Celestine Prophecy or Buddism itself to be sufficient, but right now, I have niether the time or money to go spend 40 years as a Tibetan monk just so I can have permission to debate with you.  
 

So now you are saying you have studied Buddhism? I don't entirely believe that... and this Jamaat group sounds closer to Hinduism than Buddhism. There is a difference, I'll explain.

Also, what makes you think you need to spend 40 years as a Monk or even money  just to teach yourself about Buddhism? You have a brain that you have access to much of your waking consciouness!
I lve in the real world aswell man, I have a job and I study full time and I gotta make that paper paper, but I still have a mind to contemplate life, as do you.

Anyway as I said, you are asking questions that could easily be answered by yourself if you looked into it yourself. But as I said, I don't mind debating and this debate with you has actually spurred me into reading more Buddhist literature. But I hope you do take on board what I've said about studying for youself, because also if you noticed what Buddha said on that;
independent analysis and contemplation is a tenant of Buddhism.




You offered quotes saying something to the effect of..."hell is a training" and  "we are shaped by our thoughts, and with a pure mind joy follows". 
But that is only a half-truth and half the equation.  We have to get the things "on the outside" that bring us happiness "inside our minds".  For example, if the Budda craves solitude and meditation then he has to be in the right environment "on the outside" to get the positive results he experiences "on the inside".   Maybe he needs a peaceful and quiet place for meditation.  Or maybe the Buddah is so incredible he could be in a blazing hellfire with Rob Zombie music playing at high volumes and still be "training" and in peaceful meditation.
But still, the origional point remains.  There is one environment which is MORE SUITABLE for meditation, or else monastaries would be in crowded streets rather than quiet meadows.

Therefore, the point has to be recognized, that it is two fold, you have to get desirable circumstances "on the outside" to experience greater mental well-being "on the inside".

So actually, we are shaped by a combination of our mind and our environment.  Buddah had to experience the things "on the outside" that led to his "innerstate of well-being".

 


Well as a matter of fact yes. Meditation has been recognised by science to actually work, my psychology teacher put me up on this. Of course in Tibet and around the world there are stories and testimonial accounts of people who say they've seen monks float and move things, sit and meditate within fire, astral travel, clairvoyancy, telekinesis, telepathy, the list goes on. But those monks probably have spent decades in states of meditation. But anyway, considering more short-term results, scientifically meditation does a range of things for people and their brains.
There are definite psychological benefits. But also they are starting to find (scientifically find that is, because Buddhists have known for themself the benefits of meditation for hundreds of years) that there are a huge range of physical changes that occur in the brain due to meditiation.



http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20030424-000003.html


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051110215950.htm




Anyway, science aside, I agree a stable environment as opposed to 'hellfire' would be more suitable for meditation.

However, Buddhism maintains that the physical world is capable of being transcended and a Buddhist monk has been known to casually meditate in fire but that was as protest (and the Dalai Lama asked for the monks not to let it become a trend) because that would be the end of the physical body. Having achieved meditative states and control of their Chi, Shaolin monks are able to withstand and pass the barriers of pain. Now these people, it is because they have a state of peace that is on the inside that they are capable of engaging in physical hells on the outside.

Basically, Buddhism says that this SUITABLE ENVIRONMENT is for the benefit of the BODY and also  MIND; it is so the body can relax easier with a stable environment and allow the mind to stop worrying about the body so much so the mind can be free to meditate. That is the difference, body and mind are same but both have seperate functions.


Therefore, the point has to be recognized, that it is two fold, you have to get desirable circumstances "on the outside" to experience greater mental well-being "on the inside".
 


Yes I agree totally. Have you read the story of Buddha? This is why I was saying your questions and statements are assumptions. You take one thing that Buddha and I say and over-generalise it and you make the assumption that it stands as an absolute truth within Buddhism because you have not done the knowledge for yourself and so you don't know the context of that quote. Nobody on this earth likes that. People do that about Islam and they get called bigots and infidels. Thats the point I'm trying to get you to see man. Anyway despite that, you are a thinker and you've reached a conclusion that Buddha also did.



The story goes Buddha renounced his princely status to take on the life and practice of denial of the body and the world for many many years as the ascetics in India did at the time and nearly killed himself in the process to no benefit of his mind either........

...the story goes on but there are stories about it that tell it much better than I could and I haven't even had breakfast goddamit! Promised land calling me man...


Anyway, the Dhammapada is called the Middle Way for a reason and Buddhism dosn't condone those extremes you have been implying.


Heres a synopsis of the Dhammapada:


The Dhammapada, which literally means "foot," "tool," ,"saying," or "path" (Pali: pada) of "experience" (Pali: dhamma), is a small collection of sayings about the Middle Way, the Path of Awakening which leads to Nirvana and which is embodied by the Buddha, and also about its opposite, the path of unskillful living which leads to a hellish life and which is embodied by the traditional Indian figure of Mara.

Each of us must choose which of these two paths to follow. We cannot avoid choosing: even if we do not choose, we will become subject to forces outside ourselves (media, advertisement, family, friends, enemies, lovers), and so will have chosen the path of unskillful living by default. Only by consciously choosing the Path of Awakening, and by training our minds so that everything we do is free of unhealthy desire, aversion, and delusion, can we be truly enlightened and happy.

The Dhammapada gives voice to the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism: that suffering exists, that there is a cause to suffering, that suffering has an end, and that there is a means to this end, namely the Noble Eightfold Path. But the Dhammapada focuses mostly on the Noble Eightfold Path, and specifically on the choices we face, at many junctures in our lives, between two starkly contrasting possibilities. It is a message of hope that if we choose wisely, and if we choose now rather than later, we shall find relief for both our own suffering and the suffering of others.



***


« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 11:05:24 AM by OVERFIEND »
 

Australian Bastard

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2008, 09:49:14 PM »

So just as you go to the grocery store and pick out the cereal you like most to spend your limited money on... you also pick out the people that would benefit you most to spend your limited time on.  There is one cereal that you enjoy more than the others and there are some people who you would enjoy more as a friend than the other.  To say they are all the same and that, like a candle, you will not be diminished in the least by wasting your limited time on harmful people, is foolish.

But I guess it's okay, as long as you use wisdom?  Well, why befriend harmful people at all in the first place?  Why even waste your time?  Why waste our time "training" and "converting evil mind" when we could simply let ourselves go and enjoy the company of people we like?






I've given you answers it just requires you to clear your mind of all your assumptions (alot of Zen poetry is simply just about that, having a clear mind) to investigate it afresh.


Nothing the Buddha says is meant to be taken entirely on it's own, its supposed to be considered within a context. You're not supposed to follow one tenet to it's utmost dogmatic end. You're suppose to cultivate the wisdom and peace within yourself so that you may discern for yourself a measurement of right action. 



Buddha said,


"An insincere and evil friend is more to be feared than a wild beast; a wild beast may wound your body, but an evil friend will wound your mind"


and




"Life is suffering'


...And evil and suffering will go on and on (that idea of the world Buddhism does share with Hinduism),


But Buddha also said that;



"Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law."



"Have compassion for all beings, rich and poor alike; each has their suffering. Some suffer too much, others too little".


***************************

« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 11:00:11 AM by OVERFIEND »
 

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Re: Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2008, 11:02:36 AM »
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