Author Topic: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?  (Read 212 times)

Rugged Monk

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Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« on: October 01, 2008, 12:44:21 AM »
Whatchall think......
 

7even

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2008, 12:46:54 AM »
Of course... I'm the living proof nigga
Cause I don't care where I belong no more
What we share or not I will ignore
And I won't waste my time fitting in
Cause I don't think contrast is a sin
No, it's not a sin
 

Rugged Monk

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2008, 01:24:13 AM »
yeah but specifically how you explain it, (know any philosophers whose bout it bout it?) how...

how can you be moral without religious influence...where did you get your morales from then?
 

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2008, 07:45:19 AM »
is it possible to be moral when you DO have a religious affiliation?
"...and these niggas gettin tattoo tears...industry Bloods that show fear, when the authentics are near"
 

Fuck Your Existence

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2008, 09:55:11 AM »
is it possible to be moral when you DO have a religious affiliation?
exactly,i know/knew plenty of worthless mother fuckers who consider themselves religious...
 

penenstamp

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2008, 10:13:03 AM »
is it possible to be moral when you DO have a religious affiliation?

That's a better question.
 

.:DaYg0sTyLz:.

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2008, 10:13:18 AM »
is it possible to be moral when you DO have a religious affiliation?
exactly,i know/knew plenty of worthless mother fuckers who consider themselves religious...

ive probably known more "worthless mother fuckers who consider themselves religious" then worthless muthafuckas who did not consider themselves religious. Alot of people hide behind their religion.
"...and these niggas gettin tattoo tears...industry Bloods that show fear, when the authentics are near"
 

Elevz

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2008, 11:15:58 AM »
Of course... I'm the living proof nigga

That's why you don't celebrate Christmas, right? Or respect your elders. Or accept your Sundays off from work. The whole protestant work ethic never even got anywhere near you. Oh, and also, I understand you don't wear clothes in public on a hot summer day. You're 100% freed from religious influences. I see.

What I'm saying is that you might not be moral because of your religiousness, but you'll still be influenced by religion because that's what shaped the culture that gives form to our world. That's what reflects back onto your personal morality: your acceptance or opposing of the morals of the world around you.

So in short, no, given the social environment we're now in, there'll always be religious influences on your morals. Hypothetically speaking, however, a "new" society made up of "blank" people on a deserted island would start giving shape to a new culture of theirs, but they would almost certainly resort back to some conceptions of the supernatural in order to explain that which they cannot explain. It's a natural coping strategy; humans need that to stay psychologically healthy.
 

Shallow

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2008, 02:20:41 PM »
Of course... I'm the living proof nigga


No you aren't. You may be moral, but you were raised in a society of heavy religious influence.

The question itself cannot be answered unless you find a society based on atheism. And then the philosophical question of what is religion comes into play.


Are there people that would be moral despite believing in no after life? Yes there are. Is religion defined by a belief in afterlife?
 

Rugged Monk

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2008, 09:45:21 PM »
 

What I'm saying is that you might not be moral because of your religiousness, but you'll still be influenced by religion because that's what shaped the culture that gives form to our world. That's what reflects back onto your personal morality: your acceptance or opposing of the morals of the world around you.

[/quote]

Good point.




The question itself cannot be answered unless you find a society based on atheism. And then the philosophical question of what is religion comes into play.

Good point. good points.

Societies that are based on aetheism....mmmm....how about communist Russia and China? The government killed millions of it's own people...however, Russian society was a very cohesive society and liberal and tolerant in regards to nudity and sexual freedom, etc and they did have rule of law...so during this time where did their ethics and morality draw from then? (personally I believe that the disregard for religion in communist Russia helped contribute to the mass killings of its own citizens, because religion can be a bedrock and champion of morality against the state, however it can also be the Beast itself as the Pope admitted this century. Religion can be a source and reference of morality.

Are there people that would be moral despite believing in no after life? Yes there are. Is religion defined by a belief in afterlife?

The greatest contribution of religion to the world is it's morals. So id say, no, religion is not solely defined by belief in the afterlife or even in the belief in a god, however the morals and ethics of religion is often linked to the belief in god. So does morality require a belief in God?



"Convinced that there is no eternal life awaiting him,
he [man] will strive all the more to brighten his life on earth
and rationally improve his condition in harmony with that of his fellows."

 - Ernst Haeckel. [The Wonders of Life, p. 108.]





Rugged Monk is in deep thought. I gots to write an essay on this...The question is:

'Religion and morality are inseparable from good government.' Discuss with reference to theocratic governments past and present.



 

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2008, 03:16:49 AM »
yeah but specifically how you explain it, (know any philosophers whose bout it bout it?) how...


Yes, Ayn Rands objectivist school of thought deals with this very subject.  They have many followers and are somewhat related to Libertarian politics on individual freedom, and the virtue of selfishness.  Harry Browne teaches something similar, I prefer his brand of it to that of Ayn Rands.

Harry Browne says morality is...  "A systematic attempt to recognize all the relevant consequences of your acts.  It's purpose is to prevent you from doing something hastily that might interfere with your long-term goals".

So basically he is saying it's a code of contact that allows you to act with discipline at times you might otherwise be tempted to act hastily or emotionally.

He then sets about teaching his students to develop their own code of contact that is in keeping with their own nature and goals.  For himself, he has certain morals like "never present yourself to be anything than who you really are (not lying)" and "never expect anyone to act from your knowledge, perspective, or objectives.  Assume that his viewpoints will differ in some ways from yours", "never make important decisions while emotions are dominating your mind".   


how can you be moral without religious influence...where did you get your morales from then?

So these morals are not coming from religious influence, but rather he simply considers what his goals are (making sure the goals are realistic and achievable), and then sets about making a code of conduct consistent with his own naturethat will allow him to achieve those goals.  For example, if he knows it's in his nature that he has a sensitive personality.  He wouldn't set about making a code of conduct that involved dealing out 'tough love' to those he cared about or being unsympathetic.  Rather he would make a code of conduct consistent with his sensitive nature (as an example).
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7even

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2008, 03:50:37 AM »
Of course... I'm the living proof nigga

That's why you don't celebrate Christmas, right? Or respect your elders. Or accept your Sundays off from work. The whole protestant work ethic never even got anywhere near you. Oh, and also, I understand you don't wear clothes in public on a hot summer day. You're 100% freed from religious influences. I see.

What I'm saying is that you might not be moral because of your religiousness, but you'll still be influenced by religion because that's what shaped the culture that gives form to our world. That's what reflects back onto your personal morality: your acceptance or opposing of the morals of the world around you.

So in short, no, given the social environment we're now in, there'll always be religious influences on your morals. Hypothetically speaking, however, a "new" society made up of "blank" people on a deserted island would start giving shape to a new culture of theirs, but they would almost certainly resort back to some conceptions of the supernatural in order to explain that which they cannot explain. It's a natural coping strategy; humans need that to stay psychologically healthy.


I don't celebrate Christmas, and I don't care which day I have off. I wouldn't call the fact that I am not running around in public naked religious influence. If you go as far as to say that culture-society-humans have been in a somewhat religious environment and therefore have a share of religious influence, as to say, Christians usually ate food when they were hungry, then yes, everybody has got religious influence. But that was not the point of the thread now was it?
Cause I don't care where I belong no more
What we share or not I will ignore
And I won't waste my time fitting in
Cause I don't think contrast is a sin
No, it's not a sin
 

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2008, 04:01:35 AM »
Another important point to make is that while religion teaches altruism and self-lessness, the same morals can be taught from a selfish perspective.

Instead of teaching a chile he should steal because God says so, he can be taught that he shouldn't steal because people will shun a thief and not want to be his friend. 

Or that he shouldn't lie, not because "God says so" but rather because the consequences of a lie are that one has to continue pretending and carrying on that lie far longer than they origionally intended and that ultimately they can get what is more in harmony with their nature by approaching the world directly and honestly.

*******

"I will make records as big or bigger than Death Row".   -Dre, Source 1996

"I didn't do nothing but make people money and I didn't leave nobody high and dry.  Any album (on death row) people are going to check for.  But it's time for Dre to worry about Dre.  I'm focused on the new Snoop Doggs, not like that but you know what I mean."

Dre -  Source 1996 cover

"Eminem will be bigger than Michael Jackson as long as he doesn't change."

-Dre, Rolling Stones mag 1999 Em cover

********
 

7even

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2008, 04:46:01 AM »
Another important point to make is that while religion teaches altruism and self-lessness, the same morals can be taught from a selfish perspective.

Instead of teaching a chile he should steal because God says so, he can be taught that he shouldn't steal because people will shun a thief and not want to be his friend. 

Or that he shouldn't lie, not because "God says so" but rather because the consequences of a lie are that one has to continue pretending and carrying on that lie far longer than they origionally intended and that ultimately they can get what is more in harmony with their nature by approaching the world directly and honestly.



Unfortuantely the world doesn't work like that. Sociopaths usually cope very well with society. Smart thieves don't get caught. Etc
Cause I don't care where I belong no more
What we share or not I will ignore
And I won't waste my time fitting in
Cause I don't think contrast is a sin
No, it's not a sin
 

Elevz

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Re: Is it possible to be moral without any religious influence?
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2008, 05:31:28 AM »

how can you be moral without religious influence...where did you get your morales from then?

So these morals are not coming from religious influence, but rather he simply considers what his goals are (making sure the goals are realistic and achievable), and then sets about making a code of conduct consistent with his own naturethat will allow him to achieve those goals.  For example, if he knows it's in his nature that he has a sensitive personality.  He wouldn't set about making a code of conduct that involved dealing out 'tough love' to those he cared about or being unsympathetic.  Rather he would make a code of conduct consistent with his sensitive nature (as an example).

Since you mentioned Ayn Rand already, let me add to that Ayn Rand's interpretation:
With no God to give our existence a meaning beyond itself, and your life ending the moment you die, your life can only be an end in itself. That means in order to be succesful, all of the actions in your life should be in order to get the best of it. Maximize life. You'll learn when things are going wrong, because ultimately they'll cause you to get hurt, and hurt is a (pre)sign of death. That's why you must always be as objective as possible towards your own sensations and towards everything that happens around you, because through reason you will understand the meaning it all has in relation to your life.
The outcome is a human being which supposedly stays true to its nature (Ayn Rand would call man a "rational being," although that's debatable). If your every action is in support of your own life, that means people would work together in terms of rationality, integrity and egoism (not egotist behavior, but simply the consideration of your own interests. Egotism isn't rational at all). In a truly rational society, no government would be needed, other than to protect peoples basic rights (property rights and the protection thereof, which includes your own safety, as your body also belongs to you). No obligations but those to your own life; it's a failure of your integrity if you can't live up to that.

In short, that's what it comes down to. The implications reach pretty far. Nature can't be fooled, thus we must live with it the best we can.