EMINEM BEST RAPPER ALIVE?

[Black Excellence]

Eminem's career takes the worlds LARGEST shit (bigger than Stan Marsh's...<-----for my South Park freinds ) on TI's career.

Whatever.....without the co sign from the good doctor Em wouldn't be shit in the first place.

maybe not, but neither would 50 or Bishop Lamont. without Dre, The Game could be one of those rappers on the west who dont drop albums & stay mad street, with a shitload of mixtapes. no doubt Em was a ridiculous lyricist, but Dre put him on the map. i see no harm in that.

the fact Dre decided he was going to be his protege is an honor all in itself. why didnt Dre make a strong connection with TI & produce for all his cds?

glad you noticed. tip didn't need a co sign and check his sales then  go check game's. just because dre puts you on don't mean it's gonna last forever.

[Chamillitary Click]

Eminem's career takes the worlds LARGEST shit (bigger than Stan Marsh's...<-----for my South Park freinds ) on TI's career.

Whatever.....without the co sign from the good doctor Em wouldn't be shit in the first place.

maybe not, but neither would 50 or Bishop Lamont. without Dre, The Game could be one of those rappers on the west who dont drop albums & stay mad street, with a shitload of mixtapes. no doubt Em was a ridiculous lyricist, but Dre put him on the map. i see no harm in that.

the fact Dre decided he was going to be his protege is an honor all in itself. why didnt Dre make a strong connection with TI & produce for all his cds?

glad you noticed. tip didn't need a co sign and check his sales then  go check game's. just because dre puts you on don't mean it's gonna last forever.

i didnt last forever. Em died out, 50 died out. but there both making a new album with the 3 of them heavily working on each others. im anticipating both 50 & Em's new albums (whenever they drop). hopefully they both go out with a bang.

[Shallow]

^ its weird, cause i like other music other then rap, now it actually makes up like 80% or more of what i listen to, but albums and tracks that i liked in my youth and my high school years, i cant objectively listen to it, it just has this nostolgia to it, and could be some crappy rap, complete song jack sample job, but i still enjoy it cause of some weird force, but on the flip hand i cant get into any new rap, or any rap that doesnt have an old feel to it, wether its like 80s break beat, or late 80s early 90s grimey jazzy style,.

Sure. I'm sure everyone is like that to some extent. As much as I can rant about MJ on this board I'd still get amped up at a concert if someone broke out the Beat It riff in the middle of a solo. Hearing tracks, especially obscure ones from the early 90s Death Row always gets me going. In pro wrestling I'll bash Hogan and his tactics as much as anyone but will cheer as much as anyone every time he hulks up in a match. Those old songs, TV shows, and movies from your youth are so much more than what they are. They are memories. Memories that take you back to a simpler time. A time you wish you could really go back to. You never can but in that moment when you hear that song you go do back for just a split second and everything feels a little better. I never liked Family Ties as a kid, I was too young, but every time I hear that theme song and see Micheal J Fox sliding from one desk to another I'm 7 years old in the late 80s about to change the channel to find some cartoons. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

[LyRiCaL_G]

Anyway im kinda with shallow to a certain extent...but not 03, i think that was nas time but i cannot remember but around 2001, was probably eminem at his peak...he had a few moments after, like the source disses and 8 mile but he was well past played out by that stage.

i think Shallow meant that after he released The Eminem Show & 8 Mile is was clear that he was number one of the times right there. so like from SSLP to the 8 Mile soundtrack, he was at his peak & runnin the game...soon to fall off...

i meant as in i agree with shallow as in at different times and stages, people could be argued to be the best...without someone being the best of all time...

And thats why i changed the date of 03 to 2001 imo too because i think after 01 came the time of nas possibly, not to sure on exact dates but i think the last time eminem was at his peak to me was MMLP with an expection on 8 mile were he upped his game again but yes...to me, 2001 i think was the year people could say eminem was the best.

My bad if i got you confused ;-)

pz

I picked '03 because it was the year before Encore, but Em Show and 8 Mile were also released by that time too. I'd take him over Nas at that point too, especially in hindsight. When Stillmatic and God Son were released I was so glad he wasn't releasing another Nastradamus album and was so sick of the Jay Z 5 mic hype I was praising those albums to no end but going back to them now they aren't any better than I Am and nowhere near Illmatic. I think Em Show is better than both those albums. Many would disagree, but my idea of what an album is changed dramatically over the past few years as I started listening to and appreciating other genres of music. Eminem may have shown with MMLP his rap abilities but I always felt when he put out the Em Show he better understood what an album should be and put out a better and more solid effort with Em Show.

It's all a matter of taste though. I think saying 50's or Game's debuts are even close to SSLP is laughable. I can't get upset because the way you say Whiteboy classic I say Hip Hop classic. Chronic may be a great album of the early 90s but when compared to Vs or Nevermind it falls way short in my eyes. As good as Eminem was in '03 I would never say he even had half the talent of a Jack White.

Listening to other genres of music is dope, alot of people do such as myself and it helps to have a more varied ear but when you judge an hiphop album, u dont compare it with a album from another genre unless they have undeniable links. Its like comparing a maths coursework with an english literature coursework to decide how good it is when really you should be comparing them to others of their own subject.

I'd take the nas that came out with stillmatic and gods son anyday over the eminem show/encore and 8 mile eminem...though the 8 mile eminem was dope...but there was not much of him on that. But i've been here long enough to know your history about eminem and nas posts to know who you're a fan of.

To find a comment about 50's or games album being doper than SSLP as laughable is funny to me because you say they aint even close to that album but they are both better imo and i aint some stupid kid whos saying this...if you want to compare just as albums. Both have better and more crisp production, yes eminem was a better rapper at that stage of his career than game but 50 was making just as dope hiphop tracks as eminem and some better with his opening album. GRODT sold more than eminems debut and ofcourse that does not mean its a better album but it sure as hell shows the impact it made. There is alot of heat on GRODT and documentary in terms of productions and of an album being 'put together' is much better than SSLP. But then within hiphop, SSLP is not considered a classic, more something hardcore eminem fans will tell you... By the way, im not 50cent fan, im just telling you like it is...MMLP>GRODT>SSLP

Alot of different genres have great artists and its about how great they did in there body of work. I think the eminem of SSLP/MMLP/8 mile was a great artist, but as good as he was, i'd never consider him to have half the talent of michael jackson (who i've read some of your posts about) and prince.


pz

I don't think the difference between musical genres is as vast as the difference between English and Math. Both hop hop and rock derive from the same music; rhythm and blues. Both often set out to deliver similar products. Many rap acts use studio musicians to record tracks and then lay vocals over them just like rock acts. Calling something like Springsteen's Born To Run english while Nas's Illmatic is math is simply incorrect. Obviously the way in which the albums were created is vastly different because of the difference between the skill sets of the artists. Bruce first wrote the album on a piano, then wrote lyrics while creating vocal melodies, before he brought the band in to flesh out the tracks, while Nas wrote the words in a note pad then had various producers bring in tracks to rap over, but the finished products are closer than one would think. And the objectives of each album are almost identical.

Both Nas and Bruce bring the listener into their world of longing, frustration, poverty, crime, and angst. Both albums use the music to help tell the story. Both use poetry to define and era, and a state of mind. The only major difference I see is the point of view. Illmatic speaks from the first person testimony of Nas himself blurring the lines between fiction and reality to explain to the listener what it feels like to grow up where he grew up. Springsteen, while also speaking from the first person for the most part, does it through characters he creates in stories he is telling. Maybe Springsteen never was in a situation where his "own dream guns him down as shots echo down them hallways in the night" and Nas was never a person to really say "hand me a nine and I'll defeat foes". But those situations and many others represent the minds of kids in the 70's Harlem and Jersey, and the 90s Queens.


Anyway, as for '03 Nas, there was a time where I'd have laughed at someone saying Em was better at that time. It's just as years passed by Encore and 8 Mile stayed as good as I thought they were while God Son and Stillmatic didn't.

When I wrote the bit about the SSLP with regards to Get Rich or Game's album I started it with "It's all a matter of taste though". I think 50 and Game are so shit that to consider those albums to be anything but shit is laughable. As rappers and as produced albums. I don't care much for slick production any more, regardless of genre. I liked the raw sound of SSLP a lot better. Hell I even go so far as to say I liked it better than Dre 2001. When a record sounds too clean I don't like it as much. But it was the rapping and the comedy that made SSLP.

It's like comparing Metallica to Def Leppard in terms of production. Sure Mutt Lange was a master behind the boards and helped create a monster album in Hysteria but I'll take the raw, lesser sound quality of Master of Puppets any day of the week (Even with in Metallica albums ask most fans why Black Album was worse than Justice, and slick production will be the answer). Mutt is clearly the more talented producer. I just don't like that style anymore. And taste aside I really do think in 50 years time SSLP will be more remembered and more regarded in even rap circles, and eventually sell more than 50s or Game's debut efforts combined, but we'll have to wait and see about that.


Of course MJ and Prince are more talented than Em. I even said Jack White has more than double the talent. I can still like Em's albums better than all of MJ's, most of Prince's, and some of Jack White's and still think Em's only half the talent.

Yeah i agree, the difference is not as vast as i made it out to be in my initial post but i was just trying to put emphasis on my point that you cannot always compare music from different genres even though some intertwine such as rock and hiphop...and ofcourse music that samples alot or has alot of jazz influence. Rock and hiphop have alot of similarities too such as alot of cats are saying that hiphop is dead now but this was happening in 'rock n roll' many years ago and now only a few certain artists come up which people say are dope and the majority make up generic/wack artists. This is whats happening in hiphop now, most these new artists are not very good or hard to get into...like the kid 'whiteboy' said...its about what you came up listening and how your ear is defined to listening to new artists...

Anyway i pretty much agree with your post and that everyone has different tastes but i can still respect different artists and what they've done whether im a big fan or not. I would say michael jacksons bad album is a 4/5 album probably in terms of ratings and of eminems SSLP is a 4/5 in terms of ratings too. Which album would i take everytime? Bad... Like you say, its a matter of taste and even though i think MJ is a much much more gifted artist than Eminem, i still give there albums the same rating...

Also i'd choose chronic 2001 everytime over SSLP because i really do not rate that album as anything of a masterpiece and while you may be correct and that SSLP will outsell both games and 50s debut combined in 50 years time, i would have to disagree and say that i think the most memorable one of the three within hiphop circles will GROTD as it already is imo within hiphop circles. You could however be right though and an early death of someone like eminem would definately help his sales or if the burbs suddenly became the only voice of hiphop. But lik you said, we'll see, we can only predict as we dont know the future...unless you have a time machine you aint telling me about? ;-)

For me, when i judge a hiphop album...or any other album regardless of genre and time it was created, unless it has undeniable links to something from another genre to the point of it being a huge influence, i would still rate the album as a stand alone  hiphop album and compare it against others hiphop albums instead of comparing it to those from other artists from other genres. I'm sure you can understand that and for me, i wouldnt lower the rating of a hiphop album or an album from another genre because my musical taste has expanded and suddenly i've come to appreciate a masterpiece that maybe i once never knew about from a certain type of music...it'll only make me appreciate the masterpiece more rather than put down another album because of it...

Also i agree, albums are not just all about slick productions but if you have great production and come good over it, then i think you have a potential winner on your hands, but its always easier said than done and alot of different factors combine into making a dope album.

Anyway i think your reply was dope so props, while we don't agree on everything, i can see what you're saying and while you take eminem over nas and id do the opposite, i can still respect what eminem has done in his career...as you should be able to with nas.

pz

[Shallow]

Anyway im kinda with shallow to a certain extent...but not 03, i think that was nas time but i cannot remember but around 2001, was probably eminem at his peak...he had a few moments after, like the source disses and 8 mile but he was well past played out by that stage.

i think Shallow meant that after he released The Eminem Show & 8 Mile is was clear that he was number one of the times right there. so like from SSLP to the 8 Mile soundtrack, he was at his peak & runnin the game...soon to fall off...

i meant as in i agree with shallow as in at different times and stages, people could be argued to be the best...without someone being the best of all time...

And thats why i changed the date of 03 to 2001 imo too because i think after 01 came the time of nas possibly, not to sure on exact dates but i think the last time eminem was at his peak to me was MMLP with an expection on 8 mile were he upped his game again but yes...to me, 2001 i think was the year people could say eminem was the best.

My bad if i got you confused ;-)

pz

I picked '03 because it was the year before Encore, but Em Show and 8 Mile were also released by that time too. I'd take him over Nas at that point too, especially in hindsight. When Stillmatic and God Son were released I was so glad he wasn't releasing another Nastradamus album and was so sick of the Jay Z 5 mic hype I was praising those albums to no end but going back to them now they aren't any better than I Am and nowhere near Illmatic. I think Em Show is better than both those albums. Many would disagree, but my idea of what an album is changed dramatically over the past few years as I started listening to and appreciating other genres of music. Eminem may have shown with MMLP his rap abilities but I always felt when he put out the Em Show he better understood what an album should be and put out a better and more solid effort with Em Show.

It's all a matter of taste though. I think saying 50's or Game's debuts are even close to SSLP is laughable. I can't get upset because the way you say Whiteboy classic I say Hip Hop classic. Chronic may be a great album of the early 90s but when compared to Vs or Nevermind it falls way short in my eyes. As good as Eminem was in '03 I would never say he even had half the talent of a Jack White.

Listening to other genres of music is dope, alot of people do such as myself and it helps to have a more varied ear but when you judge an hiphop album, u dont compare it with a album from another genre unless they have undeniable links. Its like comparing a maths coursework with an english literature coursework to decide how good it is when really you should be comparing them to others of their own subject.

I'd take the nas that came out with stillmatic and gods son anyday over the eminem show/encore and 8 mile eminem...though the 8 mile eminem was dope...but there was not much of him on that. But i've been here long enough to know your history about eminem and nas posts to know who you're a fan of.

To find a comment about 50's or games album being doper than SSLP as laughable is funny to me because you say they aint even close to that album but they are both better imo and i aint some stupid kid whos saying this...if you want to compare just as albums. Both have better and more crisp production, yes eminem was a better rapper at that stage of his career than game but 50 was making just as dope hiphop tracks as eminem and some better with his opening album. GRODT sold more than eminems debut and ofcourse that does not mean its a better album but it sure as hell shows the impact it made. There is alot of heat on GRODT and documentary in terms of productions and of an album being 'put together' is much better than SSLP. But then within hiphop, SSLP is not considered a classic, more something hardcore eminem fans will tell you... By the way, im not 50cent fan, im just telling you like it is...MMLP>GRODT>SSLP

Alot of different genres have great artists and its about how great they did in there body of work. I think the eminem of SSLP/MMLP/8 mile was a great artist, but as good as he was, i'd never consider him to have half the talent of michael jackson (who i've read some of your posts about) and prince.


pz

I don't think the difference between musical genres is as vast as the difference between English and Math. Both hop hop and rock derive from the same music; rhythm and blues. Both often set out to deliver similar products. Many rap acts use studio musicians to record tracks and then lay vocals over them just like rock acts. Calling something like Springsteen's Born To Run english while Nas's Illmatic is math is simply incorrect. Obviously the way in which the albums were created is vastly different because of the difference between the skill sets of the artists. Bruce first wrote the album on a piano, then wrote lyrics while creating vocal melodies, before he brought the band in to flesh out the tracks, while Nas wrote the words in a note pad then had various producers bring in tracks to rap over, but the finished products are closer than one would think. And the objectives of each album are almost identical.

Both Nas and Bruce bring the listener into their world of longing, frustration, poverty, crime, and angst. Both albums use the music to help tell the story. Both use poetry to define and era, and a state of mind. The only major difference I see is the point of view. Illmatic speaks from the first person testimony of Nas himself blurring the lines between fiction and reality to explain to the listener what it feels like to grow up where he grew up. Springsteen, while also speaking from the first person for the most part, does it through characters he creates in stories he is telling. Maybe Springsteen never was in a situation where his "own dream guns him down as shots echo down them hallways in the night" and Nas was never a person to really say "hand me a nine and I'll defeat foes". But those situations and many others represent the minds of kids in the 70's Harlem and Jersey, and the 90s Queens.


Anyway, as for '03 Nas, there was a time where I'd have laughed at someone saying Em was better at that time. It's just as years passed by Encore and 8 Mile stayed as good as I thought they were while God Son and Stillmatic didn't.

When I wrote the bit about the SSLP with regards to Get Rich or Game's album I started it with "It's all a matter of taste though". I think 50 and Game are so shit that to consider those albums to be anything but shit is laughable. As rappers and as produced albums. I don't care much for slick production any more, regardless of genre. I liked the raw sound of SSLP a lot better. Hell I even go so far as to say I liked it better than Dre 2001. When a record sounds too clean I don't like it as much. But it was the rapping and the comedy that made SSLP.

It's like comparing Metallica to Def Leppard in terms of production. Sure Mutt Lange was a master behind the boards and helped create a monster album in Hysteria but I'll take the raw, lesser sound quality of Master of Puppets any day of the week (Even with in Metallica albums ask most fans why Black Album was worse than Justice, and slick production will be the answer). Mutt is clearly the more talented producer. I just don't like that style anymore. And taste aside I really do think in 50 years time SSLP will be more remembered and more regarded in even rap circles, and eventually sell more than 50s or Game's debut efforts combined, but we'll have to wait and see about that.


Of course MJ and Prince are more talented than Em. I even said Jack White has more than double the talent. I can still like Em's albums better than all of MJ's, most of Prince's, and some of Jack White's and still think Em's only half the talent.

Yeah i agree, the difference is not as vast as i made it out to be in my initial post but i was just trying to put emphasis on my point that you cannot always compare music from different genres even though some intertwine such as rock and hiphop...and ofcourse music that samples alot or has alot of jazz influence. Rock and hiphop have alot of similarities too such as alot of cats are saying that hiphop is dead now but this was happening in 'rock n roll' many years ago and now only a few certain artists come up which people say are dope and the majority make up generic/wack artists. This is whats happening in hiphop now, most these new artists are not very good or hard to get into...like the kid 'whiteboy' said...its about what you came up listening and how your ear is defined to listening to new artists...

Anyway i pretty much agree with your post and that everyone has different tastes but i can still respect different artists and what they've done whether im a big fan or not. I would say michael jacksons bad album is a 4/5 album probably in terms of ratings and of eminems SSLP is a 4/5 in terms of ratings too. Which album would i take everytime? Bad... Like you say, its a matter of taste and even though i think MJ is a much much more gifted artist than Eminem, i still give there albums the same rating...

Also i'd choose chronic 2001 everytime over SSLP because i really do not rate that album as anything of a masterpiece and while you may be correct and that SSLP will outsell both games and 50s debut combined in 50 years time, i would have to disagree and say that i think the most memorable one of the three within hiphop circles will GROTD as it already is imo within hiphop circles. You could however be right though and an early death of someone like eminem would definately help his sales or if the burbs suddenly became the only voice of hiphop. But lik you said, we'll see, we can only predict as we dont know the future...unless you have a time machine you aint telling me about? ;-)

For me, when i judge a hiphop album...or any other album regardless of genre and time it was created, unless it has undeniable links to something from another genre to the point of it being a huge influence, i would still rate the album as a stand alone  hiphop album and compare it against others hiphop albums instead of comparing it to those from other artists from other genres. I'm sure you can understand that and for me, i wouldnt lower the rating of a hiphop album or an album from another genre because my musical taste has expanded and suddenly i've come to appreciate a masterpiece that maybe i once never knew about from a certain type of music...it'll only make me appreciate the masterpiece more rather than put down another album because of it...

Also i agree, albums are not just all about slick productions but if you have great production and come good over it, then i think you have a potential winner on your hands, but its always easier said than done and alot of different factors combine into making a dope album.

Anyway i think your reply was dope so props, while we don't agree on everything, i can see what you're saying and while you take eminem over nas and id do the opposite, i can still respect what eminem has done in his career...as you should be able to with nas.

pz

Just to make a few things clear with regards to Nas and some other things.

If we were talking career vs career I would pick Nas based on Illmatic alone. I think he really captured something there, and while I would never say it's as good or better than Born To Run, the fact that I compared the two as I did means I think it's in the same league. I'd never compare an Em album to any Springsteen album (except Human Touch).

When I said I prefer the production style of SSLP even over 2001 I was trying to emphasize that I really don't like it when records sounds too clean. I probably do like SSLP better but that's only because of the comedy and because 2001 really didn't stand the test of time for me.


I also judge an album stand alone from everything, it's own genre included. I don't dock it a point because it's hip hop. I just usually dock a point to hip hop albums because of aspects of the album that happen to show up in every hip hop album I've ever listened to. I listen to albums the same way I watch films. Maybe that's why Springsteen ended up being my favourite. I hate it when the 4th wall gets broken. It works in slapstick comedies but never in serious films. Not for me. I also hate out of character or out of theme images. Now I don't like it when the rapper plays the narrator and the rapper in the same song but I can get over that, but when rapper does that well but then throws in a stupid simile it ruins the song enough for me to dock it a grade. Let's take Cormega's Fallen Soldiers as an example. I really like the track. But in the second verse Mega starts out with

And to my cousin Bam
You my fuckin man, I find it hard to understand
You gone, you physical form is dormant

I'm lost like the Bulls without Jordan


Verse one was great and verse two was moving to another story about another lost friend and then Mega gets lost like the Bulls with out Jordan. What the fuck does a teams inability to win with out MJ have to do with a serious testimony of deceased friends. For me that's like watching Godfather 2 when Fredo goes out on the boat, and then having it cut mid scene to a sportscaster describing the meltdown of a great team because of one players desire to hog the ball and shoot instead of pass to an open man, and then go back to Fredo getting shot. It just seems so silly to me I can't take it as serious.

So if I were to find a hip hop album that was great musically, and sounded raw, with lyrics that spoke from the point of view of people, rather the the artist writing the lyrics I would call that album as good the best Springsteen records. Of course I'm not trying to make it seem like Springsteen's style is the epitome of song. I'm just trying to say there is a certain style I like better than all other styles and when any album from any genre doesn't use that style I don't like it as much as I would if it did. And in other cases it shouldn't use that style but those are generally for albums that aren't meant to be as good. If Back To The Future was re shot with the tone of Raging Bull it would be a shitty film. Because Back To the Future is in a smaller league, and it's great for the type of film it is and should be shot the way it was because it's not trying to be the calibre of film Raging Bull is. Meaning I'd prefer serious rap album to be written and produced in a BTR style but I'd never want Will Smith to try that. He's good at getting jiggy wit it.

On a side note

I really don't see that much jazz influences on Hip Hop. I could see someone making the argument that maybe the rapping aspect when performed in freestyle could be compared to a jazz instrument but for the most part the key influence on hip Hop was the Blues and Rhythm and Blues (later renamed Rock 'n Roll). Hip Hop used a lot of Jazz samples but they were set up in a structured blues way.


And just because I have to bash him anywhere I can, I have to agree with Prince with regards to MJ's Bad. It was called Bad because they couldn't fit PATHETIC on the cover. I really don't like that album. Sorry, just taking a jab at the guy.

[white Boy]

^ yea i think they liked the sounds of jazz but wanted to confine it in a structured rhythm and blues way, but on a side note any rap track featuring a stand up bass gets major props from me