Author Topic: I don't think that there is free will....  (Read 260 times)

Infinite Trapped in 1996

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I don't think that there is free will....
« on: April 04, 2009, 12:54:22 PM »
I really don't.  2 parts hydrogen, 1 part oxygen; your going to get water every time.  When we are thirsty we have to drink water or we die.  If we never eat we will die. 

There are certain laws in this world, and I think they actually exist in everything we do, it's just that it's not as obvious as the examples that I gave above. 

Another way to look at it is this.  If you were going to build a house, you would have to have knowledge of what to build before you build it, and of what the end result would look like.  You can't make a toilet, unless you first know what a toilet is.  So therefore, for this world to be created, the Creator had to have knowledge beforehand of all things.
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Mr. O

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2009, 01:20:07 PM »
I really don't.  2 parts hydrogen, 1 part oxygen; your going to get water every time.  When we are thirsty we have to drink water or we die.  If we never eat we will die. 

There are certain laws in this world, and I think they actually exist in everything we do, it's just that it's not as obvious as the examples that I gave above. 

Another way to look at it is this.  If you were going to build a house, you would have to have knowledge of what to build before you build it, and of what the end result would look like.  You can't make a toilet, unless you first know what a toilet is.  So therefore, for this world to be created, the Creator had to have knowledge beforehand of all things.
But then, you don't have to eat..and you can voluntarly die, right?
You don't need to build a house or a toilet, you can sleep under someone else's roof or you can take a shit outside on the lawn, right?  Of course you have a free will.  You can go with the nature or against the nature, the choice is yours.
[flash=200,200<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AlIxU8SiFZU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AlIxU8SiFZU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/flash]
 

J Bananas

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2009, 02:10:19 PM »
You are missing so many elements of human nature and just the nature of living things in general. Just delete this brian, it's almost as wack as your music. Fuck man, I'd kill myself if I was stuck in your frame of mind all the time.
 

jeromechickenbone

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2009, 02:18:02 PM »
We have free will.
 

RETURN OF THE OVERFIEND!

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2009, 05:33:23 PM »
Of course we have free will, given there are basic needs for survival (water, food, air). Every-single moment is an exercise of your will and a choice is made, even in the most mundane of matters like to fart or scratch your ass are choices that have huge consequences, for instance if you don't allow yourself to fart you may get a stomach ache later....or release it much later in a more inappropriate social setting like during a sensitive moment in illuminati mass which will then cause your esteemed brethren to look upon you with distaste and that can fuck up your whole hierachial standing.
 

Eleven2Three

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2009, 11:39:24 AM »
Please, do stop mixing things up.
No one questioned whether humans are have a thinking faculty. No one questioned whether we have a will.

The question is about the boundaries of the freedom of the will.

No matter which way you look at this classic debate, you should not ignore the physical make up of this world.
Your will is subject to that as well.
If everything is material, that means there can be no such thing as a free will, considering issues of causality.

P.S.: "2 parts hydrogen, 1 part oxygen; your going to get water every time." This is false, although (pure) water always does consist of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. The particles don't order themselves, just like piling up an entire tree's saw-dust will not compose a tree.
 

ŕiņ

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2009, 11:43:47 AM »
Please, do stop mixing things up.
No one questioned whether humans are have a thinking faculty. No one questioned whether we have a will.


Please, do stop mixing things up.
 

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2009, 07:22:32 PM »
Please, do stop mixing things up.
No one questioned whether humans are have a thinking faculty. No one questioned whether we have a will.




?


I thought the thread title was 'I don't think that there is free will...I really don't'.

 

Kool Beenz

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2009, 07:24:54 PM »
stupidest post youve ever made homie
 

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2009, 07:38:43 PM »


Another way to look at it is this.  If you were going to build a house, you would have to have knowledge of what to build before you build it, and of what the end result would look like.  You can't make a toilet, unless you first know what a toilet is.  So therefore, for this world to be created, the Creator had to have knowledge beforehand of all things.



The ancient Greeks believed that karma, or as they thought of it The Three Furies aka The Fates, aka the Moirai  (those three women gathered around a spinning wheel) were the oldest force in existence and were the progeny of the Abyss, the great void of nothingness whom the Greeks called Mother Night, even the Zeus stood in awe of them and was subject to their inescapable power.

Likewise Buddhists and Hindus believe karma operates independent of any divine being or intervention.


IMO, we have choices, those choices impact the world around us and effect the karmic chaos/order.
 

Eleven2Three

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2009, 03:53:02 AM »
Please, do stop mixing things up.
No one questioned whether humans are have a thinking faculty. No one questioned whether we have a will.




?


I thought the thread title was 'I don't think that there is free will...I really don't'.

That's what the thread title says, but that's not what the replies are about.

"You don't need to build a house or a toilet, you can sleep under someone else's roof or you can take a shit outside on the lawn, right?  Of course you have a free will."
Whether or not you can "take a shit outside on the lawn" has nothing to do with the freedom of the will; it only says that there is such a thing as a will and the ability to choose.

"Every-single moment is an exercise of your will and a choice is made, even in the most mundane of matters like to fart or scratch your ass are choices that have huge consequences, for instance if you don't allow yourself to fart you may get a stomach ache later...."
Same story. You have the ability to choose, but it says nothing about how autonomous those choices are.

The argument from what the ancient Greeks believed, and what Buddhists and Hindus believe, is pretty weak too, although it perhaps does say a lot about how deeply and blindly influenced you are. So what if that's what others believe? What does that say about what is true and what is not?

"IMO, we have choices, those choices impact the world around us and effect the karmic chaos/order."
Yes, yes, and yes.
Now let us bring it back to square one: are those choices part of the "karmic chaos" which is already there, and are they thus always influenced by the course of things, or is there some sort of thing beyond the material existence where the will co-exists?
 

Mr. O

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2009, 06:19:13 AM »
how about coming to dubcnn.com.  Isn't that a freewill?
[flash=200,200<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AlIxU8SiFZU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AlIxU8SiFZU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/flash]
 

Infinite Trapped in 1996

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2009, 06:37:51 AM »
how about coming to dubcnn.com.  Isn't that a freewill?

nope.  Just appears like it is, but really all this was decided way in advance.

its kind of like a hitter in baseball.  All we see is the swing.  We don't see everything that came before, the wieghtlifting, hours of practice, techniques he learned way back in little league, and so on.   Its actually the preparation that goes on in his head before the 100 mile an hour fastball that determines the swing.  The swing is just a manifestation of what was already a forgone conclusion.


*******

"I will make records as big or bigger than Death Row".   -Dre, Source 1996

"I didn't do nothing but make people money and I didn't leave nobody high and dry.  Any album (on death row) people are going to check for.  But it's time for Dre to worry about Dre.  I'm focused on the new Snoop Doggs, not like that but you know what I mean."

Dre -  Source 1996 cover

"Eminem will be bigger than Michael Jackson as long as he doesn't change."

-Dre, Rolling Stones mag 1999 Em cover

********
 

RETURN OF THE OVERFIEND!

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2009, 07:04:21 AM »

"You don't need to build a house or a toilet, you can sleep under someone else's roof or you can take a shit outside on the lawn, right?  Of course you have a free will."
Whether or not you can "take a shit outside on the lawn" has nothing to do with the freedom of the will; it only says that there is such a thing as a will and the ability to choose.

"Every-single moment is an exercise of your will and a choice is made, even in the most mundane of matters like to fart or scratch your ass are choices that have huge consequences, for instance if you don't allow yourself to fart you may get a stomach ache later...."
Same story. You have the ability to choose, but it says nothing about how autonomous those choices are.



Isn't that what free will is? The ability of one to choose behaviour and thought within the circumstances one finds themself in?





The argument from what the ancient Greeks believed, and what Buddhists and Hindus believe, is pretty weak too, although it perhaps does say a lot about how deeply and blindly influenced you are. So what if that's what others believe? What does that say about what is true and what is not?


Truth is subjective. Some subjective perspectives have objective recognition. So some truths are held to be universal. Therefore what others believe is very important.





"IMO, we have choices, those choices impact the world around us and effect the karmic chaos/order."
Yes, yes, and yes.
Now let us bring it back to square one: are those choices part of the "karmic chaos" which is already there, and are they thus always influenced by the course of things, or is there some sort of thing beyond the material existence where the will co-exists?

Some of those choices are but they are barely choices, the more important choices are not a result of karma but effect one's own karma or participation in karma, yes our choices are influenced by the course of things, and yes there is a state where will co-exists.


« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 08:33:44 AM by Acolyte Overfiend »
 

RETURN OF THE OVERFIEND!

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2009, 07:23:44 AM »
how about coming to dubcnn.com.  Isn't that a freewill?

nope.  Just appears like it is, but really all this was decided way in advance.

its kind of like a hitter in baseball.  All we see is the swing.  We don't see everything that came before, the wieghtlifting, hours of practice, techniques he learned way back in little league, and so on.   Its actually the preparation that goes on in his head before the 100 mile an hour fastball that determines the swing.  The swing is just a manifestation of what was already a forgone conclusion.





Infinite, isnt that just the same as saying 'I told you so!' after something happened.

You had no idea what would happen in the future, you only feel confident in saying that something is pre-determined because you can see it has already occured!


« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 08:30:50 AM by Acolyte Overfiend »
 

M Dogg

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2009, 08:18:59 AM »
how about coming to dubcnn.com.  Isn't that a freewill?

No, coming to dubcnn.com is like crack.
 

RETURN OF THE OVERFIEND!

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2009, 08:43:25 AM »
how about coming to dubcnn.com.  Isn't that a freewill?

No, coming to dubcnn.com is like crack.

yeh and right now I think I am THE resident crack addict...
 

777

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2009, 11:52:18 PM »
fa sho!
 

Eleven2Three

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Re: I don't think that there is free will....
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2009, 05:46:30 AM »
"Isn't that what free will is? The ability of one to choose behaviour and thought within the circumstances one finds themself in?"

Nope, that says nothing about the actual freedom of the will. As Wiki says:
"The question of free will is whether, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions and decisions. Addressing this question requires understanding the relationship between freedom and cause, and determining whether the laws of nature are causally deterministic."
You cannot have a free will if everything is already determined, even though that does not mean there are no choices to be made.
The determination occurs at a different level; the decisions you make are predetermined without your knowing it.
You're still making decisions, only they are not as free as they seem.



"IMO, we have choices, those choices impact the world around us and effect the karmic chaos/order."
Yes, yes, and yes.
Now let us bring it back to square one: are those choices part of the "karmic chaos" which is already there, and are they thus always influenced by the course of things, or is there some sort of thing beyond the material existence where the will co-exists?

Some of those choices are but they are barely choices, the more important choices are not a result of karma but effect one's own karma or participation in karma, yes our choices are influenced by the course of things, and yes there is a state where will co-exists.

It seems you are opting for both options there. That's typical.