Author Topic: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...  (Read 903 times)

Shallow

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2009, 05:45:39 PM »
Now you're limiting to rap to egotistical boasting!  I see!  Because, you know, that's all rappers spit about is themselves, right?

They don't contain a diversity of topics that reflects their socio-economic reality or discuss empowerment of self or education or growth or revolution or hatred.  It's all EGOTISTICAL BOASTING. 

I'm convinced now you know nothing about hip-hop or rap.


My remark was as close minded as yours, on purpose. I guess the fact that I structured exaclty like yours went over your head.


But now you got me going. Expect a few essays from me coming up on why Won't Get Fooled Again is a better song that Illogic's. I think before I speak and when I'm wrong I have no problem admitting it, but when I say the top rap lyricists can't compare to the top rock ones, as I've said a few times, that just doesn't come out of thin air or close mindedness. It comes from years of loving, studying, and researching hip hop. And then growing up and realizing it was never as good as I thought it was.

There was nothing close minded about my original remark.  You can not deny that hip-hop touches on a diversity of topics.  That's not opinion, it's a fucking fact.  You on the other hand have an opinion about  the lyrics of Townsend and how the greatest rockers are all superior than that of rappers.

Well, you could deny that rappers don't touch a diversity of topics and is simply egotistical boasting but you'd be wrong.  Your opinion on rappers is wrong and the facts back up my judgment.  Get over yourself.

You're right, except you didn't rap touches on a diversity of topic you said "rap captures the essence of the human spirit from a multitude of perspectives". What the fuck does that even mean anyway? Show me any form of art and I'll find someone that says it captures the essence of the human spirit from a multitude of perspectives. It's such a stupid and pretentious thing to say and no less opinion than saying Won't Get Fooled Again is beautiful and timeless. You can apply those lyrics to so many revolutions and political movements throughout history and that is a fact. And you can find millions of people that are moved and touched by reading those words and that makes them beautiful.

Fuck, I'm not even a big fan of The Who.


"If a picture's worth a thousand words I'll paint a thousand pictures". Another stupid pretentious thing to say, but it does touch on something very important. Somethingthat has plagued rap lyricism since day one. TOO MANY FUCKING WORDS. Rappers can't just maje it obvious what they are trying to say. They have to cement it over and over again. Ok, we fucking get it. Stop telling us again and again. Fucking Nas thinks we're so stupid in his song obviously from the point of view of a gun he has to say in the lyrics "I'm a Gun". Tell that isn't fucking stupid. And that's one of the highlight songs of one of raps best lyricists.

One question though; is his name Illogic a play on words combining Ill and Logic or is he called that because his lyrics lack logic? If it's the latter then it makesa lot more sense. (that's not a joke either. I'm serious. If his gimmick is being illogical then I'm beginning to understand him).


 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2009, 05:50:51 PM »
i think every rapper, wether gangsta or 'consious' has boasted at least once if not more, thats what irks me about rap, everyone is afraid to step outside the box, even the roots who are the acclaimed outsiders of rap, "He really drums", fall into the same pitfalls as every single rapper, rappers are afraid to be creative, all of them,
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2009, 05:56:59 PM »
rap captures the essence of the human spirit from a multitude of perspectives.  only a fool would dismiss hip-hop as having no substance.  one who does never enjoyed hip-hop in the first place
no it does not, and you know why, this is another anoyance that plauges rap, these guys, calling themselves poets, yet the I is always litteral, the rapper is speaking, when a good song writer, or poet (i think most rock stars arent even so egotistical as to call themselves poets), says i.... it is not the artist, but the speaker of the poem; when you read a novel the narrator does not = the author, same goes in poetry, and i expect a lot of the same in song writing, rappers missed this in their poetics 101 class, and talk from the pov of themselves, 85-95% of the time.
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2009, 06:59:51 PM »
I'm not denying that other art forms capture the human spirit. 

You're the one who simplified rap, you're the one who limited rap to something.  I argued with you because you're the one being pretentious and close minded.   You're on some high horse with the belief that rock lyrics are superior than raps.  I pointed out that it was only your opinion that Townsend lyrics were
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timeless and beautiful. Townsend very cleverly describes revolution

I'm not going to sit here and apply some bullshit collegiate perspective to rap. "It's too literal.  It uses too many words." blah blah blah.  Talk about pretentious!  Get the stick out of both of your asses. 

As I said again I'm convinced you don't comprehend hip-hop.  You're just an outsider that discovered it.  You don't understand the true power and meaning of hip-hop.
Cool breeze; I'm hopping out of new Beams
My outfit ran me a few G's but none of that will matter if you leave
I used to be an Adam with two Eves and shawtys automatically do me
Excuse me, all that happened before you doesn't matter
I'm a vision of the future climbing the success ladder
Recline, in the mean time, twenty three shine, diamond bling blind as I rewind
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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2009, 07:10:08 PM »

You're right, except you didn't rap touches on a diversity of topic you said "rap captures the essence of the human spirit from a multitude of perspectives". What the fuck does that even mean anyway? Show me any form of art and I'll find someone that says it captures the essence of the human spirit from a multitude of perspectives. It's such a stupid and pretentious thing to say and no less opinion than saying Won't Get Fooled Again is beautiful and timeless. You can apply those lyrics to so many revolutions and political movements throughout history and that is a fact. And you can find millions of people that are moved and touched by reading those words and that makes them beautiful.

Rap captures the essence of the human spirit from a multitude of perspectives = rap touches on a diversity of topic. I'm going to assume you knew that and are just being an ass. What I can't understand is if you prefer simple language so much why you are ragging on rap. There's plenty of simplistic songs to be found in the mainstream. There are also a lot of complex songs to be found, though most of the time you have to look underground.

There are a million songs about revolution, what makes "Won't Get Fooled Again" special? What makes it any better than a PE song? At some point you have to compare the lyrical quality and it is there that Illogic's song wins. Simply put, if you took the lyrics of both songs and read them like a poem, Illogic's would be considered more sophisticated because it has the more complex structure and makes you think a little bit more. You can call it pretentious all you want, I'll just tell you to go listen to Crank Dat.

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"If a picture's worth a thousand words I'll paint a thousand pictures". Another stupid pretentious thing to say, but it does touch on something very important. Something that has plagued rap lyricism since day one. TOO MANY FUCKING WORDS. Rappers can't just maje it obvious what they are trying to say. They have to cement it over and over again. Ok, we fucking get it. Stop telling us again and again. Fucking Nas thinks we're so stupid in his song obviously from the point of view of a gun he has to say in the lyrics "I'm a Gun". Tell that isn't fucking stupid. And that's one of the highlight songs of one of raps best lyricists.

First you say Illogic's lyrics don't have a meaning and that he is using "big words" and being pretentious. Now you are saying rappers make it obvious what they are saying. You just contradicted yourself.

The one thing I have to agree with you on is that it is annoying how "I Gave You Power" gives the whole analogy away in the beginning. But obviously one song isn't representative of an entire genre. And Nas is only one of mainstream rap's best lyricists. I give you a song with some depth that doesn't directly say what it is talking about and you call it pretentious. Make up your mind.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 07:24:20 PM by rapsodie »
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2009, 09:40:48 PM »
I never compared The Who to PE and I never said Townsend was a better lyricist than Chuck D. Chuck D is one of rock's elite lyricist, and yes he counts as rock because he said so.

Capturing the essence of the human sprit is no way the same thing as touching on various subject diversely. How the fuck can argue that? Getting inside the soul of someone and translating that through art is the same as creating art about a bunch of different subjects. I can draw stick figures portraying a man, a rhino, and space ship, etc and call that touvhing on various subjects. I wouldn't call it capturing the essence of shit. How the fuck old are you clowns? Am I talking to the same poster with two different aliases?

This rap song by Illogic has the lyrical quality of an old Ultimte Warrior promo. He's just over complicating and very simple, old, and boring concept of rap; "You're a sellout. I'm not"


What the fuck is golden oxygen? And what does it have to do with ascending to heaven on pegs after walking though a mine field?  The all of a sudden he's in the seven sees but ends up in outer space where the 8 planets are being sucked into a worm hole. And What the fuck does formaldehyde have to do with pride?


This guy rips Illogic to pieces lyrically, by your standards




 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2009, 11:42:00 PM »
Capturing the essence of the human sprit is no way the same thing as touching on various subject diversely. How the fuck can argue that? Getting inside the soul of someone and translating that through art is the same as creating art about a bunch of different subjects. I can draw stick figures portraying a man, a rhino, and space ship, etc and call that touvhing on various subjects. I wouldn't call it capturing the essence of shit. How the fuck old are you clowns? Am I talking to the same poster with two different aliases?

There is no universal human spirit, as everyone has different beliefs, motivations. If you spend your time drawing stick figures of a space ship then chances are that's whats important to you. When a rapper touches on different subjects through songs they are expressing themselves through their music. Hence it is capturing THEIR spirit. That's where the multitude of perspectives comes in as everyone has different views, opinions, beliefs.

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This rap song by Illogic has the lyrical quality of an old Ultimte Warrior promo. He's just over complicating and very simple, old, and boring concept of rap; "You're a sellout. I'm not"
Are you saying that's your interpretation of the song? Its not mine. But if it were I'd consider it just as valid as the simple, old and boring concept of revolution.

Quote
What the fuck is golden oxygen? And what does it have to do with ascending to heaven on pegs after walking though a mine field?  The all of a sudden he's in the seven sees but ends up in outer space where the 8 planets are being sucked into a worm hole. And What the fuck does formaldehyde have to do with pride?
You never heard the expression silence is golden? sheesh. I'm not going to bother explaining the entire song to someone who doesn't appreciate it. I notice what you do a lot is to label anything you don't understand as stupid. Real adult behavior there.

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This guy rips Illogic to pieces lyrically, by your standards


No actually he doesn't. Again you aren't aware of my standards.

a few nice sounding lines which he probably took from a poem but mostly just yelling about how he's the ultimate warrior. No multisyllabic rhymes, no internal rhyming going on, no rhyme scheme at all actually. Not even close.

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I never compared The Who to PE and I never said Townsend was a better lyricist than Chuck D. Chuck D is one of rock's elite lyricist, and yes he counts as rock because he said so.

Chuck D raps. If you consider him one of rock's elite lyricists then this argument (or at least what it was originally) is over as it shows that rappers are as good as the legends of rock.

I guess the only argument left is The Who versus Illogic. You have yet to make any argument that The Who are better or even state your critieria of why they would be better. You obviously don't appreciate complex rhymes like I do. So what's your criteria for judging the value of a song?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 11:59:14 PM by rapsodie »
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2009, 04:46:14 AM »
This is my last post in this thread.

1. Not the same poster.

2.  If you did draw stick figures with purposeful intent then it would be art that captures some essence of the human spirit. 

3.  You're the one making the accusations, I'm simply defending hip-hop.  You're the one on the high horse pointing down on hip-hop.  I'm simply arguing it's not any better or worse than rock music.
Cool breeze; I'm hopping out of new Beams
My outfit ran me a few G's but none of that will matter if you leave
I used to be an Adam with two Eves and shawtys automatically do me
Excuse me, all that happened before you doesn't matter
I'm a vision of the future climbing the success ladder
Recline, in the mean time, twenty three shine, diamond bling blind as I rewind
- Banks
 

Shallow

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2009, 08:27:45 AM »
Ok, I'm just going to assume you guys are both between 19 and 21 because that's what you sound like. I will cater to that age group in my next response.


The point I was making about capturing the essence of the human spirit and how hip hop does so is bullshit means that since it applies to everything using it to compliment hip hop doesn't mean anything. It's like saying that man is special because he has skin. We all have skin. Who cares. Why even mention it?

If this guy had said all art captures the essence of the human spirit, The Who included, and Hip Hop is no different I may have stayed out of it in the long run. In the short run, saying that art captures the essence of the human spirit is opinion, and that is fact. You cannot describe what human spirit really is, and you cannot describe what the essence of it is, any more than I can describe why Won't Get Fooled Again is timeless. There is no fact in either statement and both are opinion. Dismissing Townsend as simply being bitter was an insult to the work so I responded as such, on purpose to show how petty Action's post was.


Also, every post in here was posted in defense on brash, snobbish, claims so that's why my posts would follow suit. rapsodie said rap lyricists shit on the best Rock ones and then posted a clip using a sample from a very good lyrical song to show how inferior it is to the what a hip hop artist can do. I took offense to that and responded. I'm on no higher a horse than you too are. Using more rhymes and and bigger more complex metaphors do not make for better lyrics. It just makes it more complex.

I'll use metal as a comparison. Metal lyricists use that weird shit all the time. Something like "The barrels of hell understand the logic of death/and ferals undwell to uncover their breasts". (that's not a real lyric from a song, it's just a stupid couplet I wrote in ten seconds). And metal guitarists use these very hard to plat complicated techniques involving a lot of shredding and tapping. Metal fans think all that is evidence that metal is superior, because classic rock or punk are much more simple and therefore worse. And if we were on a metal forum and someone bashed Won't Get Fooled Again I'd be in the exact same argument with those guys.

As for the songs; yes that's what I think 1000 whispers is about and I'll show you why I think that. I could be wrong. It's only the second day of me hearing the song.

Illogic starts off by showing that he can show us a thousand different things by using thousands of words. And in doing so he is telling us that'll it'll be hard to hear or understand this song because 1000 Whispers, which is a double meaning of both how low a decibel level whispers have and that the song 1000 Whispers is difficult to comprehend.

So basically; look how great I am at what I do. it's so good you might be able to understand it.


Then he goes on to say that he can be more raw with his words and less cryptic but it is not in his nature to do so and it would make no sense for him to so. Now this I could be wrong on because because both examples he uuses, the man with no legs, and the young planet's ability to grow a garden, are examples of something less than adequate. So it's almost like he's saying If I was complete enough I would be able to say what I mean more directly.

Anyway, from there talks about said person who is a sell out bybeing a worthless henchman searching for stardom thinking he can go that route and come back as he pleases by following the breadcrumbs, but the fact he even needs breadcrumbs may imply he is entering unchartered territory that he probably can never come from. And Illogic would never do that. He'd never attempt to write hits for money. He'd rather finger-paint than take a tainted pen and curse the paper.

Illogic is not a sellout. Said rapper is.

From there he blends games and war and attempts to tell said rapper that this game of horseshoes he is entering may be better played with handgrenades, but even that won't matter because it's a war you cannot win. Because even if you are the top horse and hit all your targets that is not the key to victory.

From there he goes on about how this dream to succeed is devilish, and in your attempt to cleanse your self of it Illogic will attempt to capture the time when your world was destroyed despite illogic's attempt to honor the life of said rapper with the strength of the rest of the universe.

Then he seems to show the merits of paganism. He scoffs at religion and material wealth and gives up his wealth to impress the elves. I'm assuming he's trying to show that the Gods of Hip Hop are what matter. I don't know. The lyrics are all over the place.

Now as his 8 planet mutiny is under way Illogic's mission is to wipe cleam all the bad seeds of Hip Hop and take the root of evil from it and instead make tea. But not even illogic with all his talent can drink the tea. It's too hot.



Now The Who song is a lot more direct. I guess Townsend has legs and doesn't need to crawl on his fully grown planet filled with gardens.


We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgment of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

The first verse is the beginning of the revolt. The people will be the ones in harms way, children included while those that started the fight will be sitting back and doing nothing.

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and greet the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

The chorus shows that the narrator weary of change will go along with it but never change his way of life to appease it.

The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war

The revolt is over the fight is won, but the world is no different. Then the chorus comes back and the narrators greeting of change has been demoted to a grin.

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?


The new regime is in power and it's time to appease them now. The masses are brainwashed and genuinely believe all is well.

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-by
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight


The people appear different but everything is as it was before. The party line has changed but the people are still being parted. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.


I could apply this song to Bush and Obama. Nixon and Carter. Batista and Castro. God and Lucifer. That's why I like it. It simple but it's deep and meaningful.


I'm not even going to respond to the Warrior comment. If you can't get the sarcasm of that joke I don't expect you to get why I think Pete Townsend's lyrics here are good.


Musically there is no argument. Illogoc very plainly raps over a loop while the Who play and sing like champs through a very solid melody.














 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2009, 02:08:11 PM »
No I'm not 21. That was a few years ago. What would that have to do with this argument?

The reason I said the best rappers lyrically shit on the best rock musicians was in response to a previous post that attacked the lyrical ability of rappers using "brash, snobbish claims." Was this you on a different account? I'm not the one getting all riled up and angry.

If you had an interpretation of the song this whole time then why did you act like you can't understand it? I would argue that illogic himself "sells out" towards the end. Either way it says much more than "You're a sellout, I'm not." Along with revolution it can be applied to many different situations.
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I could apply this song to Bush and Obama. Nixon and Carter. Batista and Castro. God and Lucifer.
thinking about it, you could also apply 1000 Whispers to various presidents, as well as God and Lucifer. It could be applied to the Who as well.

Quote
"The barrels of hell understand the logic of death/and ferals undwell to uncover their breasts"

Those are just random words, some of them not even words. ferals? undwell? That line doesn't have any meaning. There's a difference between trying to sound complex and actually succeeding in making an actual statement. Even if it had meaning, then that would still be just a line. Can you make an entire song that follows a concept where the lines make sense and is consistent throughout?

When I say illogic is more lyrical I'm approaching this from a hip hop perspective where rhyming ability and use of poetic elements as well as subject matter determine your skills, things that illogic has down pretty well. When an artist is accused of "not being able to rap", its usually because they have a very simple rhyme scheme. If you have a different criteria where simpler language wins out then there's no way we will ever agree what makes the "best lyricist." The reason I chose this specific example is because people usually accuse rap of being too simple, hence this was a counter-argument to those people. But since you are taking the opposite approach I could go back and take a rapper mentioned earlier, Chuck D, who you have even identified as a legend of rock. He has simpler rhymes thus would fit your critieria.

One final comment. Musically isn't lyrically. I never said Illogic was musically better than The Who so I don't know why you are bringing this up. Obviously he took one loop from a more complex instrumental and rapped over it. My only argument was to say that Illogic can write better lyrics than them, but you disagree because you have a different opinion on what makes a song lyrical. However I have a feeling that most of the people on here would agree with me.

edit: actually now that I think about it, the same reason The Who are more musically advanced than Illogic could explain why Illogic is more lyrically advanced. because their production is more complex and varied and incorporates different instruments, while 1000 Whispers uses one loop. Similarly, illogic incorporates more metaphors, internal rhymes and multisyllabic rhymes, making his lyrics more advanced. 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 03:05:22 PM by rapsodie »
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2009, 08:08:10 AM »
when roger screams that yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaa it sends shivers down my spine and honestly i think meet the new boss same as the old boss is a better line than anything ever written in hip hop
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2009, 08:53:15 AM »
No I'm not 21. That was a few years ago. What would that have to do with this argument?


Because when I was 19-21 I'd be arguing in your favor.

The reason I said the best rappers lyrically shit on the best rock musicians was in response to a previous post that attacked the lyrical ability of rappers using "brash, snobbish claims." Was this you on a different account? I'm not the one getting all riled up and angry.

Then you should have just clarified that in the beginning.


If you had an interpretation of the song this whole time then why did you act like you can't understand it? I would argue that illogic himself "sells out" towards the end. Either way it says much more than "You're a sellout, I'm not." Along with revolution it can be applied to many different situations.
Quote
I could apply this song to Bush and Obama. Nixon and Carter. Batista and Castro. God and Lucifer.
thinking about it, you could also apply 1000 Whispers to various presidents, as well as God and Lucifer. It could be applied to the Who as well.

It's not that I didn't get it. It's that I didn't feel it. And the reason I didn't feel it is because lyrically it's all over the place I couldn't get any sense of emotion coming from the words. It has no structure, and I don't mean in terms of rhythm and rhyme. I mean in content. it's just a bunch of very different examples saying the same thing. And I don't always mind that but it just went to far out of this world.


For example;

Princess cards she sends me with her regards
barroom eyes shine vacancy, to see her you gotta look hard
Wounded deep in battle, I stand stuffed like some soldier undaunted
To her Cheshire smile. I'll stand on file, she's all I ever wanted.
But you let your blue walls get in the way of these facts
honey, get your carpetbaggers off my back
you wouldn't even give me time to cover my tracks.
You said, "Here's your mirror and your ball and jacks".
But they're not what I came for, and I'm sure you see that too
I came for you, for you, I came for you, but you did not need my urgency
I came for you, for you, I came for you, but your life was one long emergency
and your cloud line urges me, and my electric surges free

Crawl into my ambulance, your pulse is getting weak
reveal yourself all now to me girl while you've got the strength to speak
Cause they're waiting for you at Bellevue with their oxygen masks
But I could give it all to you now if only you could ask.
And don't call for your surgeon even he says it's too late
It's not your lungs this time, it's your heart that holds your fate
Don't give me money, honey, I don't want it back
you and your pony face and your union jack
well take your local joker and teach him how to act
I swear I was never that way even when I really cracked
Didn't you think I knew that you were born with the power of a locomotive
able to leap tall buildings in a single bound?
And your Chelsea suicide with no apparent motive
you could laugh and cry in a single sound.

And your strength is devastating in the face of all these odds
Remember how I kept you waiting when it was my turn to be the god?

You were not quite half so proud when I found you broken on the beach
Remember how I poured salt on your tongue and hung just out of reach
And the band they played the homecoming theme as I caressed your cheek
That ragged, jagged melody she still clings to me like a leech.
But that medal you wore on your chest always got in the way
like a little girl with a trophy so soft to buy her way
We were both hitchhikers but you had your ear tuned to the roar
of some metal-tempered engine on an alien, distant shore
So you, left to find a better reason than the one we were living for
and it's not that nursery mouth I came back for
It's not the way you're stretched out on the floor
cause I've broken all your windows and I've rammed through all your doors
And who am I to ask you to lick my sores?
And you should know that's true...
I came for you, for you, I came for you, but you did not need my urgency
I came for you, for you, I came for you, but your life was one long emergency
and your cloud line urges me, and my electric surges free


These lyrics are very sporadic if you will, but they hold a common theme in many places and I feel that, especially when listening to them on record. The lyricist is comparing love to war and that is a logical in a lot of ways. It's not a revolutionary idea by any means. But he is describing his relationship with this girl as if he is describing a military battle and each verse is a different battle of their war. I really love the way the story does from love to war and back seamlessly.

Illogic doesn't do that for me, yet anyway.


Quote
"The barrels of hell understand the logic of death/and ferals undwell to uncover their breasts"

Those are just random words, some of them not even words. ferals? undwell? That line doesn't have any meaning. There's a difference between trying to sound complex and actually succeeding in making an actual statement. Even if it had meaning, then that would still be just a line. Can you make an entire song that follows a concept where the lines make sense and is consistent throughout?

Of course it doesn't make sense. I wrote it in ten seconds. FYI, feral is supposed to be Farrel, like wild creature, and undwell is a play on words.


As for whether I can write or not. Give me a topic and criteria and I'll give it a shot.


When I say illogic is more lyrical I'm approaching this from a hip hop perspective where rhyming ability and use of poetic elements as well as subject matter determine your skills, things that illogic has down pretty well. When an artist is accused of "not being able to rap", its usually because they have a very simple rhyme scheme. If you have a different criteria where simpler language wins out then there's no way we will ever agree what makes the "best lyricist." The reason I chose this specific example is because people usually accuse rap of being too simple, hence this was a counter-argument to those people. But since you are taking the opposite approach I could go back and take a rapper mentioned earlier, Chuck D, who you have even identified as a legend of rock. He has simpler rhymes thus would fit your critieria.


I've felt for years that too often rappers sacrifice content to appease rhyme structure. Obviously song writers I like do the same, but I just don't find it as bad. In rap random words just get added to fill gaps and that's fine for some songs, but for dark serious songs I'd rather just hear the silence or have it sound less melodic.

One final comment. Musically isn't lyrically. I never said Illogic was musically better than The Who so I don't know why you are bringing this up. Obviously he took one loop from a more complex instrumental and rapped over it. My only argument was to say that Illogic can write better lyrics than them, but you disagree because you have a different opinion on what makes a song lyrical. However I have a feeling that most of the people on here would agree with me.


Lyrics are very musical. The difference between a lyric and poem is that one is set to music and should accompany that music. Bernie Taupin is an incredible lyricist. So is Cole Porter, and many times they never really say anything and upon simply reading the lyrics like a book you get nothing from them. In Won't Get Fooled Again, you feel the lyrics much more in the song by the way they are written, not just in terms of literature, but in terms of musical composition. They compliment the music in a way that gives you the full meaning the song. Action thought Townsend was bitter because of how the words came across with out music. The song as a package comes across more as a man that's been there done that, seen these so called revolutions, and each time he'll just pick up his guitar and play/just like yesterday. he's not angry. If a real revolution and change comes, that's great, but he's not holding his breath. And the musical performance of Roger Daltrey is also masterful in the way he sings the lyrics and the music that go with them.


edit: actually now that I think about it, the same reason The Who are more musically advanced than Illogic could explain why Illogic is more lyrically advanced. because their production is more complex and varied and incorporates different instruments, while 1000 Whispers uses one loop. Similarly, illogic incorporates more metaphors, internal rhymes and multisyllabic rhymes, making his lyrics more advanced. 
[/quote]

As said above I didn't just mean more complex instrumental. The Who song has a feeling that 1000 Whispers doesn't. And my example of metal was what I wanted to use to show you that.

This guy can do so much with a guitar that someone like Chuck Berry or Jimi Hendrix could not do





Metal fans use that complexity as a reason to say it's better. It's not better because it's harder to move your fingers that speed. It's very cool and I like listening to it sometimes but the reason why a guy like this isn't mentioned in the same breath as guitarists like Berry is because he lacks the ability to make you feel something deep inside with his guitar like this can;




or even something as simple as this can




Both those guys were masters at guitar and neither could even dream of playing the notes Batio can play. More notes mean nothing. More words and rhymes mean nothing. Just make me feel you. And sorry, but Illogic doesn't do it for me. If he can fire you up, or make you cry, or make you jump up and dance then more power to you, but not me.
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2009, 12:44:02 PM »
Quote
Then you should have just clarified that in the beginning.
Go back and read the post. I even quoted what I was responding to

Quote
It's not that I didn't get it. It's that I didn't feel it. And the reason I didn't feel it is because lyrically it's all over the place I couldn't get any sense of emotion coming from the words. It has no structure, and I don't mean in terms of rhythm and rhyme. I mean in content. it's just a bunch of very different examples saying the same thing. And I don't always mind that but it just went to far out of this world.

see that's where this argument goes towards opinion. What emotion you get out of something depends on the individual and whether they can relate to the topic. To me 1000 Whispers has a gradual progression that is resolved by the end. I enjoy listening to him speak. Though I get emotion out of "Won't Get Fooled Again" as well, there exist people who wouldn't. This is why I said we should be judging it on structure because otherwise it is all about the individual experience and everyone has different tastes.

Quote
I've felt for years that too often rappers sacrifice content to appease rhyme structure. Obviously song writers I like do the same, but I just don't find it as bad. In rap random words just get added to fill gaps and that's fine for some songs, but for dark serious songs I'd rather just hear the silence or have it sound less melodic.

I would agree with this in general but rap is also a lot more constricting in general. They have to flow to a specific beat in time and make it rhyme whereas a singer has more freedom to improvise. What makes a rap song "sound good" is the rhymes and their flow, while other genres rely on the singers voice and notes to make the song sound good. If a rapper doesn't rhyme in the right place then it won't sound right. I don't blame this on the rappers, I blame it on the confines of the genre. I think its amazing that even with such restrictions they are able to say quite a lot, especially the ones who can utilize complex rhyme schemes and come up with clever metaphors at the same time.

Quote
Lyrics are very musical. The difference between a lyric and poem is that one is set to music and should accompany that music. Bernie Taupin is an incredible lyricist. So is Cole Porter, and many times they never really say anything and upon simply reading the lyrics like a book you get nothing from them. In Won't Get Fooled Again, you feel the lyrics much more in the song by the way they are written, not just in terms of literature, but in terms of musical composition. They compliment the music in a way that gives you the full meaning the song. Action thought Townsend was bitter because of how the words came across with out music. The song as a package comes across more as a man that's been there done that, seen these so called revolutions, and each time he'll just pick up his guitar and play/just like yesterday. he's not angry. If a real revolution and change comes, that's great, but he's not holding his breath. And the musical performance of Roger Daltrey is also masterful in the way he sings the lyrics and the music that go with them.

Poetry also contain lyrics. The "voice" of a poem is the lyrical speaker. but there is no music involved. Hence there is a distinction between lyrical and musical.

Quote
This guy can do so much with a guitar that someone like Chuck Berry or Jimi Hendrix could not do

Wouldn't that make him more skilled at the guitar? Whereas Chuck Berry would have more classic songs and have a much greater influence. If translated to rap, it would be like comparing 2pac to AZ. One is mainstream and appeals to more people, but imo that doesn't make him better. It makes him more influential. (I know I'm going to get hate for this because Pac is considered a god here)

Anyway I'm going to stop using the word better and use more skilled from now on, because different people have different tastes.
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2009, 12:53:17 PM »
I have to reply to your comment that it is the feeling that makes an instrumental better. Granted most of rap is sampled, but there's also a lot of original compositions as well. What makes them not as good as rock songs? They are popular, they have people vibing to them. I wouldn't dream of calling them as good as classic rock instrumentals, but you can't really argue that point based on feeling alone. Isn't the whole reason people are hating on mainstream rap right now because it is "feel good" music and not enough deep content? Even sampling, if you think about the whole concept of the break-beat (taking the most "feel good" part of a song and looping it).
« Last Edit: June 13, 2009, 01:07:24 PM by rapsodie »
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2009, 01:55:46 PM »
the older i get the less respect i give rap music.


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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2009, 03:17:26 PM »
Go back and

read the post. I even quoted what I was responding to

Fair enough. My mistake.



see that's

where this argument goes towards opinion. What emotion you get out of something depends on

the individual and whether they can relate to the topic. To me 1000 Whispers has a gradual

progression that is resolved by the end. I enjoy listening to him speak. Though I get

emotion out of "Won't Get Fooled Again" as well, there exist people who wouldn't. This is

why I said we should be judging it on structure because otherwise it is all about the

individual experience and everyone has different tastes.



No. It's always been opinion. There is really no objective way to compare quality of art.

Saying one song is more emotional than another is no more opinion than saying one has a

higher quality rhyme pattern. I could rhyme A/B/C/D over and over again. It's not hard, just

give me a rhyming dictionary. And no matter how cohesive the song is doesn't matter as long

as some people love it to death for rhyming the way it rhymes. What makes one structure

"better" than another, and why is more complex in anyway better? Answer that objectively.

It's not possible.


I would agree

with this in general but rap is also a lot more constricting in general. They have to flow

to a specific beat in time and make it rhyme whereas a singer has more freedom to improvise.

What makes a rap song "sound good" is the rhymes and their flow, while other genres rely on

the singers voice and notes to make the song sound good. If a rapper doesn't rhyme in the

right place then it won't sound right. I don't blame this on the rappers, I blame it on the

confines of the genre. I think its amazing that even with such restrictions they are able to

say quite a lot, especially the ones who can utilize complex rhyme schemes and come up with

clever metaphors at the same time.


All form of rhyming is constricting. There's no way around that. Rappers rely on voice and

notes too to make themselves sound better. Just at Guru from Gangstarr, and switch his voice

and ability to hit certain notes with a certain force with that of Rakim. It's not that

different, except for the fact that you talk faster than you sing and to fill up the same

time you need to say more words.


Poetry also

contain lyrics. The "voice" of a poem is the lyrical speaker. but there is no music

involved. Hence there is a distinction between lyrical and musical.


But 99% of hip Hop is set to music or rapped musically. It is not published writing meant

for text and text alone. That was my point. In both of these songs the lyrics are set to

music and accompany and compliment the music.



Wouldn't that

make him more skilled at the guitar? Whereas Chuck Berry would have more classic songs and

have a much greater influence. If translated to rap, it would be like comparing 2pac to AZ.

One is mainstream and appeals to more people, but imo that doesn't make him better. It makes

him more influential. (I know I'm going to get hate for this because Pac is considered a god

here)

First we have to differentiate between not being able to do something and choosing not too.

Plenty of blues guitarists can play speed metal but refuse too because it lacks soul as far

as they are concerned. There's no proof that Jimi couldn't have learned tapping and tapped

as fast as Batio, (and there may not be proof Batio can't feel the vibe as well either).

The point is that there is an intangible to playing guitar that you cannot teach, and it

applies to all art. You are not more skilled at guitar because you can play faster if

playing faster means you cannot capture the emotion, which is what music is about. This isn't

sport where the end result is the goal or basket. A shooter than can hit 90 of 100 free

throws is better than one who hit 40 of 100. But those And1 guys who can do all these tricks

would get killed by a team of NBA players coached to win.

Music lives and breathes and the better guitarist is the one that can do that better.


By that same token why is Tupac's decision to have a more raw lyrical style mean he could

not have written less raw? And why is more multisyllable rhyming better or more skilled?


Is it more skilled to say about a woman you are involved with;

As it stands our devotion to one another was
happenstance. Raw emotions of blunder and
angry rants no potion could muster to
advance the notion to love her


I met the bitch at some party and we were the only two fucking high on ex. We fucked for a few weeks but she drove me crazy; waking up in the middle of the night screaming at me to get her some more heroin. Shit was alright in the beginning but I can't fucking stand it no more. I don't even like her that much and she wants to get married? Fuck that.


What makes one better than the other? It took me the same amount of time and skill to write both of them.






 



I have to reply to your comment that it is the feeling that makes an instrumental better. Granted most of rap is sampled, but there's also a lot of original compositions as well. What makes them not as good as rock songs? They are popular, they have people vibing to them. I wouldn't dream of calling them as good as classic rock instrumentals, but you can't really argue that point based on feeling alone. Isn't the whole reason people are hating on mainstream rap right now because it is "feel good" music and not enough deep content? Even sampling, if you think about the whole concept of the break-beat (taking the most "feel good" part of a song and looping it).



I'm not sure what you think I was getting at. My comment on the feeling of the singer making the song better by adding to it properly or my comment that an instrumental with emotion is better than one with out.
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2009, 03:27:58 PM »
I think raps lyricism at is best is pretty amazing. The wordplay, the concepts and the fact there are so many lyrics in a rap song. A rock song can come up with a dope hook and that can dominate the entire song yet a rap song must contain notable verses which makes it difficult to keep the quality of the lyrics to such a high level.
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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2009, 07:41:02 PM »
I think most of your response speaks for itself. I don't think I have to reply to most of that. Except

Quote
I'm not sure what you think I was getting at. My comment on the feeling of the singer making the song better by adding to it properly or my comment that an instrumental with emotion is better than one with out.

I quote you:
Quote
As said above I didn't just mean more complex instrumental. The Who song has a feeling that 1000 Whispers doesn't. And my example of metal was what I wanted to use to show you that.

You can't claim the Who song has more feeling that 1000 Whispers. Its your opinion. Illogic writing more complex lyrics is fact. And of course it takes more skill to write more complex lyrics. I'm not even gonna argue with you on that point. If you want to go against the grain on that one be my guest, but I'm not going to be the one to argue that point with you. Peace and regards.
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2009, 07:58:21 PM »
I think most of your response speaks for itself. I don't think I have to reply to most of that. Except

Quote
I'm not sure what you think I was getting at. My comment on the feeling of the singer making the song better by adding to it properly or my comment that an instrumental with emotion is better than one with out.

I quote you:
Quote
As said above I didn't just mean more complex instrumental. The Who song has a feeling that 1000 Whispers doesn't. And my example of metal was what I wanted to use to show you that.

You can't claim the Who song has more feeling that 1000 Whispers. Its your opinion. Illogic writing more complex lyrics is fact. And of course it takes more skill to write more complex lyrics. I'm not even gonna argue with you on that point. If you want to go against the grain on that one be my guest, but I'm not going to be the one to argue that point with you. Peace and regards.


What do you mean by speaks for itself?



And I do adisagree that more complex lyrics take more skill is some kind of rule. Sometimes it''s the simplest things that take the most skill. To have the deepest meanings with as little as possible said.


And how can you say I claim anythiung like it's fact when I spent an entire paragraph showing you all art is opinion. Of course it's my opinion. You're clearly ignoring most of what I have to say. I even said in a previous most that the feeling of the Who song moves me while 1000 Whispers doesn't, but if it moves you then that's great. This means that emotional to me maybe be nothing for you and the vice versa.

There is no winning this debate. I'm just showing you my point of view. You either agree with it or you don't.
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #69 on: June 16, 2009, 10:41:43 PM »
Of course it takes more skill to write more complex lyrics because its harder to do. What kind of moron would think otherwise? Why in the world do you think they call it "complex lyrics"? What do you think "complex" means? Of course its harder to say something using a metaphor than it is to simply say it. Of course its harder to rhyme than it is to not, the more complex the rhyme the harder it is. As I said before, I'm not going to argue with you on that point further because its just common sense.
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2009, 09:16:51 AM »
Of course it takes more skill to write more complex lyrics because its harder to do. What kind of moron would think otherwise? Why in the world do you think they call it "complex lyrics"? What do you think "complex" means? Of course its harder to say something using a metaphor than it is to simply say it. Of course its harder to rhyme than it is to not, the more complex the rhyme the harder it is. As I said before, I'm not going to argue with you on that point further because its just common sense.


You just don't get it. It's not always the words themselves on the surface but what's behind them. If you were writing dialogue or a conversation in a novel or film you can write the most powerful words in art and do it with out rhyming and with out a large vocabulary. That's what many music artist are able to do with their lyrics. To take a simple line and make it mean somenthing to a million different people is harder than making a complex line meaning something. Just like with my Chuck Berry impression. It is harder to compose Johnny B Good than it is to compose.


Then I got Mary pregnant
and man that was all she wrote
And for my nineteenth birthday I got a union card and a wedding coat
We went down to the courthouse
and the judge put it all to rest
No wedding day smiles no walk down the aisle
No flowers no wedding dress


You grew up where young girls they grow up fast
You took what you were handed and left behind what was asked
but what they asked baby wasn't right
you didn't have to live that life,
I was gonna be your Romeo you were gonna be my Juliet
These days you don't wait on Romeo's
you wait on that welfare check
and on all the pretty things that you can't ever have
and on all the promises


These two verses, from different songs. No complicated rhyme structures, no big words, but harder to write than a lot of songs because they come with wisdom attatched to them. The whole concept of "less is more" wasn't just made up by idiots who couldn't use rhyming dictionaries.

One day you'll see what I mean. You may always love and appreciate Illogic and you may always think that complicated is very hard, but you'll see that very simple can also be very hard. Whether you beilieve it's harder is another thing but I predict that you will one day appreciate it.
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2009, 03:29:58 PM »
Of course it takes more skill to write more complex lyrics because its harder to do. What kind of moron would think otherwise? Why in the world do you think they call it "complex lyrics"? What do you think "complex" means? Of course its harder to say something using a metaphor than it is to simply say it. Of course its harder to rhyme than it is to not, the more complex the rhyme the harder it is. As I said before, I'm not going to argue with you on that point further because its just common sense.


You just don't get it. It's not always the words themselves on the surface but what's behind them. If you were writing dialogue or a conversation in a novel or film you can write the most powerful words in art and do it with out rhyming and with out a large vocabulary. That's what many music artist are able to do with their lyrics. To take a simple line and make it mean somenthing to a million different people is harder than making a complex line meaning something. Just like with my Chuck Berry impression. It is harder to compose Johnny B Good than it is to compose.


Then I got Mary pregnant
and man that was all she wrote
And for my nineteenth birthday I got a union card and a wedding coat
We went down to the courthouse
and the judge put it all to rest
No wedding day smiles no walk down the aisle
No flowers no wedding dress


You grew up where young girls they grow up fast
You took what you were handed and left behind what was asked
but what they asked baby wasn't right
you didn't have to live that life,
I was gonna be your Romeo you were gonna be my Juliet
These days you don't wait on Romeo's
you wait on that welfare check
and on all the pretty things that you can't ever have
and on all the promises


These two verses, from different songs. No complicated rhyme structures, no big words, but harder to write than a lot of songs because they come with wisdom attatched to them. The whole concept of "less is more" wasn't just made up by idiots who couldn't use rhyming dictionaries.

One day you'll see what I mean. You may always love and appreciate Illogic and you may always think that complicated is very hard, but you'll see that very simple can also be very hard. Whether you beilieve it's harder is another thing but I predict that you will one day appreciate it.
i think a good/cool example is ernest hemmingway's 6 word short story, "For sale: baby shoes, never used"
 

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Re: Why is rap the only genre of music where you hear...
« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2009, 04:38:49 PM »
Of course it takes more skill to write more complex lyrics because its harder to do. What kind of moron would think otherwise? Why in the world do you think they call it "complex lyrics"? What do you think "complex" means? Of course its harder to say something using a metaphor than it is to simply say it. Of course its harder to rhyme than it is to not, the more complex the rhyme the harder it is. As I said before, I'm not going to argue with you on that point further because its just common sense.


You just don't get it. It's not always the words themselves on the surface but what's behind them. If you were writing dialogue or a conversation in a novel or film you can write the most powerful words in art and do it with out rhyming and with out a large vocabulary. That's what many music artist are able to do with their lyrics. To take a simple line and make it mean somenthing to a million different people is harder than making a complex line meaning something. Just like with my Chuck Berry impression. It is harder to compose Johnny B Good than it is to compose.


Then I got Mary pregnant
and man that was all she wrote
And for my nineteenth birthday I got a union card and a wedding coat
We went down to the courthouse
and the judge put it all to rest
No wedding day smiles no walk down the aisle
No flowers no wedding dress


You grew up where young girls they grow up fast
You took what you were handed and left behind what was asked
but what they asked baby wasn't right
you didn't have to live that life,
I was gonna be your Romeo you were gonna be my Juliet
These days you don't wait on Romeo's
you wait on that welfare check
and on all the pretty things that you can't ever have
and on all the promises


These two verses, from different songs. No complicated rhyme structures, no big words, but harder to write than a lot of songs because they come with wisdom attatched to them. The whole concept of "less is more" wasn't just made up by idiots who couldn't use rhyming dictionaries.

One day you'll see what I mean. You may always love and appreciate Illogic and you may always think that complicated is very hard, but you'll see that very simple can also be very hard. Whether you beilieve it's harder is another thing but I predict that you will one day appreciate it.
i think a good/cool example is ernest hemmingway's 6 word short story, "For sale: baby shoes, never used"

Exactly. Those 6 words can mean so many different things to so any different people. Just 6 very simple words and the depth of it all is endless. Who are the people selling the shoes? Did the baby die? How? When? Where? Maybe it's as silly as two pairs of the same shoe bought for the baby shower. You'll never know. The reason for those shoes being for sale is all up to the reader.