Author Topic: Question for religious people  (Read 378 times)

Triple OG Rapsodie

Question for religious people
« on: June 05, 2009, 12:21:53 AM »
So you believe that when you die your soul goes to heaven (or hell). And your soul is supposed to be your identity right? All your memories, personality, and everything. So my question to you is, which version of your soul is the one that goes to heaven. We change every day. We get new memories, experience new things. We see people die and all these terrible things happen, we lose our innocence. We go through relationships, experience love and loss, success and failure and all of this changes us. We are a completely different person from the one we were five years ago, or even five days ago. So which "soul" is it that goes to heaven, according to your beliefs.
 

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Re: Question for religious people
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2009, 10:03:43 PM »
the good memories... our favorite ones... thats all 8)
 

TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96'

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Re: Question for religious people
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2009, 12:19:25 AM »
So you believe that when you die your soul goes to heaven (or hell). And your soul is supposed to be your identity right? All your memories, personality, and everything. So my question to you is, which version of your soul is the one that goes to heaven. We change every day. We get new memories, experience new things. We see people die and all these terrible things happen, we lose our innocence. We go through relationships, experience love and loss, success and failure and all of this changes us. We are a completely different person from the one we were five years ago, or even five days ago. So which "soul" is it that goes to heaven, according to your beliefs.

Great question.

The Qu'ran teaches that everything is balanced and weighted according to three things...

1.  Actions
2.  Intentions
3.  Forgiveness

So all the persons actions will be taken into account.  Every good deed and bad deed, and the intentions behind those actions.  So if you had bad intentions and bad actions in the past, if you have never asked for forgiveness for those sins, then those will be will black stains stay on your heart or on your record of deeds.  Also your good actions and intentions will be on your spirit/heart/record.   Allah will take all this into account.  Then Allah's mercy is great, so Allah may be merciful and forgive even your worst sins if he Wills it.

So let's imagine the person is admitted into heaven.  There is a cleansing process which is known as the "torment of the grave".  Where the sinner may suffer greatly on account of their bad actions, memories, and intentions.  However, upon completion of this the person will be purified... and to answer your question they will enter heaven pure with their good actions/memories.

An analogy can be made to a person's life and the transformation of a caterpillar.  The caterpillar begins as an ugly, undesirable character in nature.   But if it eats the right leaves (righteous living) then it will survive in it's "death" (cocoon, similar to torment of the grave) and then it will be reborn as a butterfly which is considered the most virtuous and beautiful character in nature.
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Shallow

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Re: Question for religious people
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2009, 07:11:53 AM »
I don't know. I never pretended to know. And I never will. I have faith in eternal life. I don't know the meaning of life, or the reason for it to be eternal. I have faith in morality. I believe that there are absolute wrongs and absolute rights. That doesn't mean I believe that there is no grey area at all. I believe that doing the right thing and living forever are connected somehow. Whether that means you keep living life after life until you get it right and then you move on to the next level or not isn't the issue. I just try my best to do the right thing and I don't like the idea of people dieing and that being the end of them.


That's all I can tell you.
 

Triple OG Rapsodie

Re: Question for religious people
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2009, 09:58:47 PM »
So if you only take your good memories, won't that change who you are? How can someone exist with only their good memories? The bad memories are a part of who we are, and they have helped us to become better people. Lets say someone got caught shoplifting at age 13. That experience taught them that crime is wrong. For someone experiencing the death of a loved one for the first time, it shows them how it feels to lose someone and to treasure what they have. Someone who does the wrong thing feels guilt, and this in turn convinces them that they should be doing the right thing. Like the saying goes, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Simply put, if we don't know what the bad things are, we won't know that they are bad and to avoid them. Taking away bad actions and experiences is a step backwards towards ignorance, not a step towards enlightenment.
 

Shallow

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Re: Question for religious people
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2009, 10:34:40 PM »
So if you only take your good memories, won't that change who you are? How can someone exist with only their good memories? The bad memories are a part of who we are, and they have helped us to become better people. Lets say someone got caught shoplifting at age 13. That experience taught them that crime is wrong. For someone experiencing the death of a loved one for the first time, it shows them how it feels to lose someone and to treasure what they have. Someone who does the wrong thing feels guilt, and this in turn convinces them that they should be doing the right thing. Like the saying goes, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Simply put, if we don't know what the bad things are, we won't know that they are bad and to avoid them. Taking away bad actions and experiences is a step backwards towards ignorance, not a step towards enlightenment.


Who said anything about losing your bad memories. I have no idea what a soul consists of or what heaven is like. I was just telling you how I live (or attempt to live). You're trying to break it down logically or figure it out logically.

However, logically you do not have to experience every thing you consider immoral to understand why it is wrong. I've never been raped or raped anyone else. Does that mean I can never know that rape is wrong?
 

Triple OG Rapsodie

Re: Question for religious people
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2009, 11:13:36 PM »
So if you only take your good memories, won't that change who you are? How can someone exist with only their good memories? The bad memories are a part of who we are, and they have helped us to become better people. Lets say someone got caught shoplifting at age 13. That experience taught them that crime is wrong. For someone experiencing the death of a loved one for the first time, it shows them how it feels to lose someone and to treasure what they have. Someone who does the wrong thing feels guilt, and this in turn convinces them that they should be doing the right thing. Like the saying goes, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Simply put, if we don't know what the bad things are, we won't know that they are bad and to avoid them. Taking away bad actions and experiences is a step backwards towards ignorance, not a step towards enlightenment.


Who said anything about losing your bad memories. I have no idea what a soul consists of or what heaven is like. I was just telling you how I live (or attempt to live). You're trying to break it down logically or figure it out logically.

However, logically you do not have to experience every thing you consider immoral to understand why it is wrong. I've never been raped or raped anyone else. Does that mean I can never know that rape is wrong?

Obviously I was answering the other posters...and no you wouldn't have to experience it yourself firsthand but you would have to understand the concept of it and that would involve feeling empathy for the victim and putting yourself in their position. I guarantee you that someone who has never had a bad experience and had never seen or  been told of a bad experience is someone who doesn't know the difference between right and wrong. Its a part of basic learning. Look at how infants and young kids misbehave without any thought of anyone besides themselves...why do you think they do that? Because they don't know any better. Its through being trained by their parents and having to live with the consequences that they learn morals.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 11:16:27 PM by rapsodie »
 

Shallow

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Re: Question for religious people
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2009, 06:46:45 AM »
So if you only take your good memories, won't that change who you are? How can someone exist with only their good memories? The bad memories are a part of who we are, and they have helped us to become better people. Lets say someone got caught shoplifting at age 13. That experience taught them that crime is wrong. For someone experiencing the death of a loved one for the first time, it shows them how it feels to lose someone and to treasure what they have. Someone who does the wrong thing feels guilt, and this in turn convinces them that they should be doing the right thing. Like the saying goes, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Simply put, if we don't know what the bad things are, we won't know that they are bad and to avoid them. Taking away bad actions and experiences is a step backwards towards ignorance, not a step towards enlightenment.


Who said anything about losing your bad memories. I have no idea what a soul consists of or what heaven is like. I was just telling you how I live (or attempt to live). You're trying to break it down logically or figure it out logically.

However, logically you do not have to experience every thing you consider immoral to understand why it is wrong. I've never been raped or raped anyone else. Does that mean I can never know that rape is wrong?

Obviously I was answering the other posters...and no you wouldn't have to experience it yourself firsthand but you would have to understand the concept of it and that would involve feeling empathy for the victim and putting yourself in their position. I guarantee you that someone who has never had a bad experience and had never seen or  been told of a bad experience is someone who doesn't know the difference between right and wrong. Its a part of basic learning. Look at how infants and young kids misbehave without any thought of anyone besides themselves...why do you think they do that? Because they don't know any better. Its through being trained by their parents and having to live with the consequences that they learn morals.


Sorry didn't see the other poster.

We aren't exactly disagreeing with anything here. Yes, what is good cannot exist with out what is evil.
 

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Re: Question for religious people
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2009, 12:48:54 PM »
Here's what I believe......people don't change. They may learn, they may grow up, they may mature, but they don't change. Feelings and experience, whether it's feelings from the experiences or not, just don't disappear.

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. 

I mean too, you can be 78 years old and still feel the same way about somethang, when you were at the age of 12.


I don't understand how we have 'different versions' of ourselves, of our soul. Yes, we may have different personalities but there's only one soul....there's only one of you.

We get new memories, experience new things. We see people die and all these terrible things happen, we lose our innocence. We go through relationships, experience love and loss, success and failure and all of this changes us.
That all right there makes you who you are. Right? Like I said I think you can learn, grow up and mature from those, but necessarily change you??

I don't know, I don't know, I could understand how we have different personalities becuz as humans we all act different around different people but your soul, that's like your mind, your thoughts, your opinions, your inside feelings, you may act different in front of your grandmother wit one personality and be your wit your boys and have another personality but that don't mean your views change. I mean your soul as sure as hell ain't. I can't understand how we could have different versions of our 'soul'.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 12:50:30 PM by QuietTruth »
 

Triple OG Rapsodie

Re: Question for religious people
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2009, 11:15:20 PM »
My soul is destroyed and rebuilt everyday to some degree. Me losing my father changed who I am. If he were still alive today I'd be a different person. Maybe an easier example is to think about a person who gets in an accident and loses part of their brain. That person is changed completely. Their personality, their feelings and anything else can change. I think of people as blank slates with equal opportunity for good and evil, who's soul becomes what it is based on experiences. Its not just coincidence that people who grow up in fucked up situations are more likely to become fucked up individuals.
 

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Re: Question for religious people
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2009, 07:45:14 AM »
My soul is destroyed and rebuilt everyday to some degree. Me losing my father changed who I am. If he were still alive today I'd be a different person. Maybe an easier example is to think about a person who gets in an accident and loses part of their brain. That person is changed completely. Their personality, their feelings and anything else can change. I think of people as blank slates with equal opportunity for good and evil, who's soul becomes what it is based on experiences. Its not just coincidence that people who grow up in fucked up situations are more likely to become fucked up individuals.


See now you're attempting to understand what a soul is. Scientifically they say we only use a small portion of our brains. That small portion that we do use is responsible for how you act, think, look at life. Your soul doesn't have to be who you think you are at the moment. It could be something that has lived 1000 human lives and already expeirenced everything you have experienced and will experienced. I'm not saying it is like that. I'm saying we really have no knowledge of soul. Even in faith, what the soul really is does not get fully explained in any scripture I've read.
 

Triple OG Rapsodie

Re: Question for religious people
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2009, 07:56:14 AM »
When I say soul I mean your identity. Your personality and memories, who you are basically. This is what most people's concept of a soul is so that's what I'm calling it.
 

Shallow

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Re: Question for religious people
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2009, 03:11:54 PM »
When I say soul I mean your identity. Your personality and memories, who you are basically. This is what most people's concept of a soul is so that's what I'm calling it.

I never really heard to many explain what a soul is or understand what it is fully. But if it is what you say it may be then I would answer the soul that enters the afterlife is the identity you would have at the very end of your natural life had you lived it entirely.
 

Triple OG Rapsodie

Re: Question for religious people
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2009, 07:32:44 PM »
What about someone who gets some brain injury and ends up brain dead? Is their soul brain dead as well?
 

Shallow

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Re: Question for religious people
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2009, 09:30:04 PM »
What about someone who gets some brain injury and ends up brain dead? Is their soul brain dead as well?


No because, now I'm only saying this under the pretense that a soul is as you explained it, that brain dead persons soul would be the complete man at the end of his natural life with all of the experiences that man or woman would have had.


I personally am not so sure a soul even thinks like we do in the first place. Through movies and out own lack of understanding the universe we seem to think our souls are something like transparent blue ghosts that can do anything and go anywhere; basically super humans with powers. But why does that have to be the case? Who's to say a soul isn't just a collection of matter, energy, that enters a human (or not just humans for all we know) and life in that being is created. The memories, actions, philosophies could all be irrelevant for all I know.