Am I The Only Person Who Thinks 2Pac Was Just Average...

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

Dont get me wrong homie!! The dude had a good argument but i thinking he is fucking up on his definition of MC!!! I think Pac is an MC!! He claims Pac does not have the 4 levels or whatever the fuck!!! I think he is wrong!

4 Elements!!! HAHA! My Bad!!

LOL!!!  Yeah, that was classic shit right there, he said 2pac didn't have the 4 elements of Hip-Hop.  LOL!!!!!  Then after I explained to him what the 4 elements of hip-hop really were, he tried to come back and explain himself and just made it worse

[Nega-Sikotic]

OMFG how dare you try and strip a man of his nobility in death.  He was taken away from us too soon, by the Illuminati cuz he wouldn't sell his ass like Nas, Jay-Z and yes Biggie too (thanks to faggot ass puffy)....Pac and Big shouldn't even be in the same catagory, there not about the same thing.  You saw the notorious movie right?  they made sure you knew that Biggie sold crack to pregnant mothers, cheats on his wife and abandon his first daughter....while pac is making songs about Killuminati, so many tears and Lord Knows.... Fuck all those post humous albums too, if he didn't release it when he was alive, thats because it sucked!!!!!!   WE elected a legend as a people so the illumanti can never take his music and wisdom from us.  They raped his legacy by selling all those shytty albums after he died and gave his vocals to Eminem, what the fukk?  Anyone who thinks he's average, doesn't go through any of the shyt he used to talk about on records, you can't relate...sounds to me like another rich kid with a fukked up opinion on the greatest artist of all time.  of course he ain't gonna be lyrical to a cat who aint feeling the subject matter in the first place.

G.O.A.T....who knows, u could be the illuminati trying to feel out how many people turned their backs on him.

GTFOH

... Words can not express how retarded you are.. and btw I used to bump Pac everyday all day, he was (still is to a point) my favorite rapper, when I said average I meant as he wasn't all high and mighty as, people like you, make him out to be... and if your gonna reply with "OMFG how dare you blah bah blah illuminati blah blah" your either 12 year old uk fan, or just a sad individual. BTW I'm not rich.. if I was then why the fuck would I spend time making this thread when I could count my "cash" with my 'illuminati homies", dumb fuck.

[cStyle]

Pac was not underrated he was a good artist, but he brought DeathRow down cuz of his Ego!

[fabtoxicp]

Infinite
goddman, ur hella confused.  
real talk  

like i said, again - i dont kno how good ur mental reception-abilities are, but bottomline I CANT for the life of me understand the circus-activities inside ur skull
READ AGAIN WITH ME, KINDERGARDEN-STYLE  

when u are defining mc's worthy of the goat-titles in hiphop - one of the stripes a rapper has to have on his belt - is flow, lyrical wordplay, mic-capabilities etc etc -
there are 4 elements to hiphop - the "master of the crowd"-subject bein one of the more important ones, dat ppl should keep in mind when ranking artists

 
how the fucc can u get the impression dat im talkin about those 3 subjects (which i underlinded) as hihphop-elements, u crazy muddafucca?  
how, why? what's the matter wit u?   "the master of the crowd"-subject is the element i was talkin about, divided into 3 words for ur thick skull thoroughly.. IT'S SO FUCKIN SIMPLE  
I was debatin wit ppl b4 u came in this bitch, and No one xcept you and ur insanity recogized any existing "errors" in dat post. u clearly dont kno what the fucc ur talkin about, you dumb muddfucca you  
ur a breadcrumb on my breakfast-table, and considerng what a stupid impressin i get of u, i would probly destroy u within a milli-second if i EVER decided to discuss wit u as a grown-up.. ur probably diagnosed wit some mental-A,B,C stuff, and slaughtering u with words, would b like phsycialy raping someone handicaped. but if u really feel like discussing the history of hiphop, go ahead.. open up a new thread in the outbound-connection, and invite me in - and i'll be there.. LOL  

Tip: Check my previous post-history to get a full understanding on what ur really gettin into *wink, wink*

u haven't been relevant in this thread for a second - all ignorant dumb fuckin bullshit - what are u trying to prove? I thought u were a 2pac-fan, are u supossed to ride for ur hero by debating, OR by tryin to find errors in writin handwrtiting (dat only exists in ur confused head).
obvioulsy ur doin the latter cus u can't provid anythin relevant in words, to back up what u invalidate - you dumb muddafucca you.
but all right, young padawan.. all right
come see, Yoda. come c em
 

and now on, to somethin diffrent
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT
i can understand the 2pac-love in this thread. especially since we're debating on a westcoast-related forum - but ignorant dumb fuckin idiot-comments from 15-year olds wont b tolerated.
u will be ignored, and if u cant provide anythin relevant wit words in a debate, then u will be ignored - cuz u are a dumb muddafucca. comments like "WHAT?!?!" "WHAT ARE YOU SAYIN" HAHAHA" U CRAZY" WOOOT WOOT" are extremely unnecassary. LOL at some of u small individuals goin at me, like i was bashin or talkin bad about 2pac anywhere in this thread. And LOL at some of u morons, dat brought up Lil Wayne and/or T.I.-names trying to bring a point - like i ever compared Mr Shakur wit 'em to begin with.
And Notice: For the last time, i only said "overrated", not "average", and/or "wack".. try to stay wit me NOW

im a big fan of 2pac, own his whole catalagoue - and there's nothin more to it than that.
 im debating over the fact, if he deserved the title "Goat" or not - it's very very silly to get emotional and heated over one opinion. IF I WOULD'VE DISSED HIM RECKLESSLY, i would've understood ur previous rants and lynching.. but i never did.
but then again, i understand the mentality of a 2pac-stan somewhow.
they are xtremely emotional-creatures, and they dont kno no better.

and before anyone decides to jump in and fire up this debate some more, i encourage him/her to read every single page in this thread - to try to understand what i am discussin
l'll even make it easier for u,
here, i quoted myself
i feel like u cant b crowned "THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME" if ur abilities lyricaly and on the microphone can't weigh as much as ur other positive characteristics - dat's what im debatin about

when ur ranking an hiphop-artist, u have to keep the most important thing in mind - the word itself: "Hip Hop" microphone/master of the crowd-skills

UNTOUCHABLE
ur NOT 37  

LAC/Eastside
ur not significant enuff to catch my attention. provide ur posts wit intersesting mater and/or intellingene - and I MIGHT eyeball u.. And if ur goin to "murder" moi, u better bring ur triple-a-game.. trust me, youngsta

weedhead
ur not significant enuff to catch my attention. provide ur posts wit intersesting mater and/or intellingene - and I MIGHT eyeball u..

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

Real recognize real and who feels it knows it.  People who feel 2pac know that he put his soul into his music in a way that no rapper ever has or ever will.

And the material he was coming out with in his last days was on such an intense spiritual level, that he connected with his true fans in a way that some will never understand; and thats okay because it wasnt for them to understand.

He knew he was about to leave this planet and tracks like "Blasphemy" and "Hold Your Head" were like his last precious words and legacy he wanted to leave for his fans. 

Allah (God) put it in his heart to do that, and it flowed naturally from his viens, he had a burning desire to express and he had to get everything out before Allah could take him from this Earth.

[fabtoxicp]

salami bacon to that, my brother.  

and we all loved dat nigga pac for dat - we were gettin mad, when we were listening to "hit 'em up", we all felt the girl's pain when listenin to "Brenda's Got a Baby" etc etc
there is a reason why we called 2pac the hiphop-Marvin Gaye..
he could connect wit us, absolutely. dat's a beautiful characteristic as an artist.

but still..
QUOTE
i feel like u cant b crowned "THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME" if ur abilities lyricaly and on the microphone can't weigh as much as ur other positive characteristics - dat's what im debatin about

when ur ranking an hiphop-artist, u have to keep the most important thing in mind - the word itself: "Hip Hop" microphone/master of the crowd-skills[/u]

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

salami bacon to that, my brother.  

Is this a sample of your vast intelligence you were threatening to drop on me if I responded to you?

and we all loved dat nigga pac for dat - we were gettin mad, when we were listening to "hit 'em up", we all felt the girl's pain when listenin to "Brenda's Got a Baby" etc etc
there is a reason why we called 2pac the hiphop-Marvin Gaye..
he could connect wit us, absolutely. dat's a beautiful characteristic as an artist.

but still..
QUOTE
i feel like u cant b crowned "THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME" if ur abilities lyricaly and on the microphone can't weigh as much as ur other positive characteristics - dat's what im debatin about

when ur ranking an hiphop-artist, u have to keep the most important thing in mind - the word itself: "Hip Hop" microphone/master of the crowd-skills[/u]

Are you trying to say 2pac couldn't rock a show?  Don't you know back in his prime that Death Row was so large that if they even tried to do a show that muthufucka would get shot up and torn down!

...so 2pac's shows were few and far between...

In the early days around the time of Doggystyle and Chronic Death Row tried and tried to tour but it was hard to convince concert promoters and venues to hold Death Row concerts because of the threats of violence that might take place at the show.

Now, if your KRS1, sure you can go rock a small arena anytime you want, and it will be all peace and love.  But it wasn't until the later 90's that the biggest selling rap artists were finally able to hold successful tours without violence shutting them down.  Puffy's No Way Out Tour in 97/98 paved the way and later Jay and DMX were able to hold large scale tours, and then ofcourse Dre's Up and Smoke Tour in 2000.

But in the era when Pac and Death Row were #1 it wasn't possible for them to do many shows at the time.


...so are you saying that somebody like KRS1 was a better performer and that his mic skills were better than Pac and that therefore Pac is just average and somebody like KRS1 is #1?   No doubt, KRS1 was and still is a great performer, and he can give a show in any venue on the spot, and he can rock it.  That's one of the most important things to him, and he has even said something to the effect that part of being a great rapper is being able to do a show.  But you have to understand that 2pac's era was different then the era that KRS1 came up in.

[fabtoxicp]

i wasn't sayin anywhere dat pac couldn't rock a show, silly. NOWHERE
if anythin, supposedly he was a good performer in live-form - as "unotuchable" were sayin earlier (he witnessed some of his shows, apparently).
it's like this, "performing" doesn't have to necessarily be equivalent to "rockin a show". a "performer" can also be a "performer" as a "performer inside the booth" (as in performing/rappin on the mic). u got it twisted, dat's all.
im sure pac was good as a live-act - i dont disagree..

but for the record, if an artist brings a big crowd - dat sure as hell doesn't mean dat the artist istelf is necesarrily any "good" as a performer (like i get the impression dat u're tryin to imply). dat just means, dat the artist's got a big fanbase. the one's dat saw Lil Wayne perform knows he brings a kinda boring show - but dat doesn't stop him from sellin tickets, you see..

and somethin more for the record..
if u are the best at what u do in "live-form", dat sure as hell doesn't mean dat u're "the goat" either.
i feel like ur basicaly just tryin to find irrelevant errors somewhere in my posts, by scrollin through the previous pages in the tread - hoping to find somethin to speak on in a dramatic tone..

salami bacon to that, my brother
there, there. dat was a joke.. dont go all emotional on me now.. *sniff, sniff*

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

i wasn't sayin anywhere dat pac couldn't rock a show, silly. NOWHERE
if anythin, supposedly he was a good performer in live-form - as "unotuchable" were sayin earlier (he witnessed some of his shows, apparently).
it's like this, "performing" doesn't have to necessarily be equivalent to "rockin a show". a "performer" can also be a "performer" as a "performer inside the booth" (as in performing/rappin on the mic). u got it twisted, dat's all.
im sure pac was good as a live-act - i dont disagree..

but for the record, if an artist brings a big crowd - dat sure as hell doesn't mean dat the artist istelf is necesarrily any "good" as a performer (like i get the impression dat u're tryin to imply). dat just means, dat the artist's got a big fanbase. the one's dat saw Lil Wayne perform knows he brings a kinda boring show - but dat doesn't stop him from sellin tickets, you see..

and somethin more for the record..
if u are the best at what u do in "live-form", dat sure as hell doesn't mean dat u're "the goat" either.
i feel like ur basicaly just tryin to find irrelevant errors somewhere in my posts, by scrollin through the previous pages in the tread - hoping to find somethin to speak on in a dramatic tone..

Okay.  So your saying his skills on the mic were weak?  So please, give us an example of how 2pac should of rapped.  You understand, 2pac wasn't one of those rappers that did a dozen or so takes of one track and tried to execute each syllable like Eminem was doing on his MMLP record.  2pac would come to the studio high or drunk or just from partying or maybe the mood was set on low with candles in the room and he was bringing people to tears.  It was more important that you felt 2pac and that his emotions were raw, rather then him perfecting each syllable like he was Rakim, Canibus, Eminem, or Big L or something.

By the way, if Pac is just average, then that must mean that 49% of the rappers out there are better then him.  So you must be able to list me atleast 50 or so names that are better than 2pac.  So please, hit me off with just a few of those names to start with.

salami bacon to that, my brother
there, there. dat was a joke.. dont go all emotional on me now.. *sniff, sniff*

It's not that I'm emotional, it's just that I'm still waiting for you to hit me with this great intelligence and wisdom you were speaking about, that would blow me away and put me in my place.

[fabtoxicp]

goddamn, are u startin to get on my nerves. 

i never said he was "average" ffs.. like i said, read EVERY single post in this thread, and try to catch up - and get a better impression of what is goin on

i never said Pac was "weak" on the mic.. come on, now. ur really boring

this is what i said - READ AGAIN
i feel like u cant b crowned "THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME" if ur abilities lyricaly and on the microphone can't weigh as much as ur other positive characteristics - dat's what im debatin about

when ur ranking an hiphop-artist, u have to keep the most important thing in mind - the word itself: "Hip Hop" microphone/master of the crowd-skills[/u]

dat doesn't mean dat he's "weak" as in "weak", dat means dat his various positive-characteristics doesn't weigh as much as his skills as an mc.. HE ISN'T AS GOOD AS A RAPPER, AS HE IS WIT OTHER SHIT - therefore, i dont think he deserves his famous title - cuz the skills he posses isn't equivalent wit the most important skill of all

It's not that I'm emotional, it's just that I'm still waiting for you to hit me with this great intelligence and wisdom you were speaking about, that would blow me away and put me in my place.
 
dat's what im waiting on, salami-brother.. open up a new thread in the outbound-conec, so i can school ur salami-ass    u brought it up originaly, so i mean.. let's go! 

[fabtoxicp]

So you must be able to list me atleast 50 or so names that are better than 2pac.  So please, hit me off with just a few of those names to start with

aight, easy peezy
NOTICE - these niggas are better "rappers", not "artists" - STAY WIT ME NOW  

lyrical wordplay, flow and overall capabilites as far as bein a fullfledged-mc
Crooked I
Kool G Rap
Tech N9ne
Chino XL
Big Daddy Kane
Rakim
Redman
50 Cent
Snoop Doggy Dogg
Kurupt
Canibus
DMX
Nas
Jay-Z
Eminem
Biggie Smalls
E-40
Vinnie Paz
WC
etc
etc
etc
etc

BUT, NONE of these niggas posess the same "feeling" as 2pac, maybe.
and i feel dat the Word "feeling" - is NOT somethin dat needs to be excluded when ranking a "Goat"-mc - BUT i also feel like dat critera is not everything dat u should think of, either

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

goddamn, are u startin to get on my nerves. 

i never said he was "average" ffs.. like i said, read EVERY single post in this thread, and try to catch up - and get a better impression of what is goin on

i never said Pac was "weak" on the mic.. come on, now. ur really boring

this is what i said - READ AGAIN
i feel like u cant b crowned "THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME" if ur abilities lyricaly and on the microphone can't weigh as much as ur other positive characteristics - dat's what im debatin about

when ur ranking an hiphop-artist, u have to keep the most important thing in mind - the word itself: "Hip Hop" microphone/master of the crowd-skills[/u]

dat doesn't mean dat he's "weak" as in "weak", dat means dat his various positive-characteristics doesn't weigh as much as his skills as an mc.. HE ISN'T AS GOOD AS A RAPPER, AS HE IS WIT OTHER SHIT - therefore, i dont think he deserves his famous title - cuz the skills he posses isn't equivalent wit the most important skill of all

Again, that's like saying Michael Jordan wasn't the greatest player ever because he didn't score as many points in a game as Wilt Chamberlain, or because he didn't rebound as well as Dennis Rodman, or didn't shoot 3's as well as Bird, or pass as well as Magic.

But Jordan set the standard.  Just like 2pac set the standard in hip-hop.

What you've done is take one criteria, mic skills, and placed it above everything else.  I already explained Pac wasn't the type of rapper to do 100 takes of one song to perfect every syllable.  It was more important for him to just come raw and emotional, and hit you while he was in the mood.  Rather then come back in and redo a song when he wasn't in the mood just so he could get every syllable to hit the snare on time. 

But even still.. I get your point, I just think your taking mic skills and making it supreme over everything else, when it's obvious that 2pac is a legend and is the standard bearer.  But 2pac himself said in an interview that he didn't think he was the best "rapper (emcee)".  But he did say he thought he was the REALEST.

It's not that I'm emotional, it's just that I'm still waiting for you to hit me with this great intelligence and wisdom you were speaking about, that would blow me away and put me in my place.
 
dat's what im waiting on, salami-brother.. open up a new thread in the outbound-conec, so i can school ur salami-ass    u brought it up originaly, so i mean.. let's go! 

Okay.. here goes... check the OUtbound section in a couple minutes

[fabtoxicp]

What you've done is take one criteria, mic skills, and placed it above everything else.
dat's exactly what i've done - it doesn't eliminate everything else - but it sure as hell doesn't grant him the famous "Goat"-title either

it's like givin the world's most beautiful woman, her "universe"-title. her face is the most incredible thing u've ever seen - but her body is.. ughh..
u get the picture - IT RUINS THE OVERALL FEELING

 

[fabtoxicp]

he was the REALEST.

dat's a bullshit word, which isn't relevant when debating (everythin is an indivudal opinion when speakin about "the realest" mc. no factual diagrams)

BU if we HAVE to give dat title to someone - dat would have to be either Scarface or Beans

[U.N.T.O.U.C.H.A.B.L.E.]

he was the REALEST.

dat's a bullshit word, which isn't relevant when debating (everythin is an indivudal opinion when speakin about "the realest" mc. no factual diagrams)

BU if we HAVE to give dat title to someone - dat would have to be either Scarface or Beans

lmao yeap u definetly an east coast geek & retarted as well, u have no business in a westcoast forum kid & i can show you im 37 if you like  ....you got too much to prove & so far you haven't accomplished anything but look stupid....go on homie go on haha...i can't debate with retards it's just uncivilized....