Why So Many Old People Are Stupid

[Matty]

Can you teach me how to make those long ass posts saying something that could fit into 1 or 2 sentences?
No Offence.

I was explaining the process of how I had came to the same conclusion as the author of the article.  I don't think my explanation was too long.

On Topic:
You say it starts earlier because you see people from allot of age groups bragging about the same immature activities.
In your teens you develop your individuality, the difference between people becomes more obvious therefore you talk about subjects the others can relate to.

I don't think that it is a matter of just talking about common activities to relate to one another.  I understand the use of that.  There's a lot of people I talk with about sports because it's hard to relate to them on any other subjects.  So I know drinking alcohol, for example, is a common past time a lot of people can relate to at different ages.

But it's more than that.  You can see the expression on a person's face change as they get older.  They slowly become less open, set in their ways, and it is very difficult for them to continue to receive new idea's without becoming anxious.  They do become less intelligent, and often more immature.  I mean, look at the phenomenon of television shows with the father or adult male figure acting like a child all the time.  That show "Jim", "Kings of Queens", "Simpsons", "Family Guy", Tim Allen's characters, Adam Sandlers characters, I could go on and on... it's became a cultural phenomenon in America especially.  

lol....tv shows don't reflect reality. Most fathers aren't retards, and if they are I suspect they started out as such. Fyi, fat, stupid guys don't usually pull the hot chicks either. Your Eminem example doesn't make sense either. An album doesn't reflect a rapper's personality either, it reflects what they believe will appeal to their audience at the time.

I'll agree on the point that people become more set in their ways....but that's because they have a lot more knowledge than younger people. They've spent an entire lifetime learning things a certain way and you expect them to suddenly change because you say something different? Younger people may have a greater capacity for learning, but that's because they are more ignorant and know less to begin with.

i think what you said in that second paragraph can be used to demonstrate some of these arguments about older people. the idea that older people become set in their ways because they are more knoweledgable. it's a decent enough concept, but flawed in the sense that concrete ideologies become increasingly problematic in a dynamic and changing world, which is certainly what we live in. at the same time, young people may in fact be 'ignorant', but there's nothing wrong with this ignorance if it precipitates a state of humbleness where we want to learn more about the world. i very much subscribe to the view of the more we learn, the less we really know. for adults to get 'set in their ways' because they amassed a certain level of knowledge or information - i'd call this culturally justified laziness and/or arrogance more than anything else.

[Triple OG Rapsodie]

arrogance >>> ignorance

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

You just proved my point. Em made it because he thought people would want that kind of Eminem but they didn't and now he's admitting it. That has zilch to do with his intelligence level or this discussion.

The guy raps about celebrities and killing people, things he doesn't do in his real life. ITS A MARKETING TOOL USED TO SELL RECORDS. It's not a personal reflection on his state of mind or intelligence.

First of all you make it sound like Eminem's music is only one big giant marketing scheme, which is far from the truth.  And even if it was the truth, it doesn't mean that it would work.  You can't just sell with a good marketing scheme if your music sounds like shit.  Eminem didn't sell 50 million something records in his career just because of good marketing...at some point it was talent, passion, and artistic creativity that made him what he was.

Also, there are many ways for an artist or person to show growth in their life.  For example, a rapper could become wiser and rap about more adult issues as a sign of his growth.  Similar to Masta Ace, if you compare his Sittin On Chrome (which was about partying and being a player) to his Disposable Arts album which he made later in his career (which was about adult issues and reflection on life).   Both were dope albums, and both represented growth at different points in his life and career.

Another way a rap artist could show growth could have less to do with more mature subject matter, but rather a more mature sound and greater overall quality in their music.  For example, Dr. Dre on Efil4Zaggin with NWA was rappin about mostly the same shit as he was on The Chronic, and both albums were dope.  Yet the Chronic represented a growth in his skills as a producer, the overall sound of his music; and to this day the album is one of the greatest classics hip-hop has ever produced.

[Triple OG Rapsodie]

Em is a rapper that has a lot of talent, I never said he didn't. But his subject matter IS a marketing gimmick. Do you think if he had made only serious music he would have sold even half the records? I remember when Em first came out and all people could talk about was how controversial he was. It's the reason every teen in America loved him when he came out. His shocking lyrics MADE his career, period point blank. It's only now that people are tired of it that they want something serious from him.

And besides that, your tracking of the progression of his albums is completely off. It's not like he's been growing intellectually this whole time and suddenly reverted with Relapse. His first record Infinite was actually his most serious. MM is probably his most childish, and yet its considered his best record.

To anyone paying attention, it should come as no coincidence that his new song "Not Afraid" is similar to "Beautiful", his most successful record off of Relapse. He makes records based on whether they will be popular. I can guarantee you that if the audience had wanted the immature Eminem, he would have made another silly song.

All this is moot, because the point I am making here is that a commercial album is not a reflection of a person's personal growth or mental capacity. Dr. Dre is not all about fucking hoes and slapping bitches. He's a family man for crying out loud. Eminem does not go around murdering people. The personality of an album is not the same as the personality of the person deciding to make that record. Its an entirely different thing. Of course someone's mind state CAN have an influence on their music, but you SHOULDN'T ASSUME so, especially in Eminem's case where the silly/shocking records are made on purpose to appeal to people.

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

Em is a rapper that has a lot of talent, I never said he didn't. But his subject matter IS a marketing gimmick. Do you think if he had made only serious music he would have sold even half the records? I remember when Em first came out and all people could talk about was how controversial he was. It's the reason every teen in America loved him when he came out. His shocking lyrics MADE his career, period point blank. It's only now that people are tired of it that they want something serious from him.

And besides that, your tracking of the progression of his albums is completely off. It's not like he's been growing intellectually this whole time and suddenly reverted with Relapse. His first record Infinite was actually his most serious. MM is probably his most childish, and yet its considered his best record.

To anyone paying attention, it should come as no coincidence that his new song "Not Afraid" is similar to "Beautiful", his most successful record off of Relapse. He makes records based on whether they will be popular. I can guarantee you that if the audience had wanted the immature Eminem, he would have made another silly song.

All this is moot, because the point I am making here is that a commercial album is not a reflection of a person's personal growth or mental capacity. Dr. Dre is not all about fucking hoes and slapping bitches. He's a family man for crying out loud. Eminem does not go around murdering people. The personality of an album is not the same as the personality of the person deciding to make that record. Its an entirely different thing. Of course someone's mind state CAN have an influence on their music, but you SHOULDN'T ASSUME so, especially in Eminem's case where the silly/shocking records are made on purpose to appeal to people.

Say whatever the hell you want homie, but I know when I listen to Eminem's music from 96-2003 that what he was spittin was real.  When it's real you can feel it.  And maybe you didn't understand it cause it wasn't for you, but a lot of people felt like they could relate to his music.  The marketing aspect was never a "gimmick" it was all artistic as well.  The look of his video's and photography all built up his character as a rapper and presented himself artistically in a way that was real, and related to his true fans.  Your just not a real fan so you missed all of it.

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[Triple OG Rapsodie]

Who are you to say I'm not a real fan? I've been listening to Em since he came out. How old are you and when did you start listening to him? A real fan can enjoy his music but at the same time take a step back and realize that his controversial image is a marketing tool. How exactly do you relate to his music? Do you relate to killing bitches, being homicidal and acting insane? Because that is the basis of the character he built up starting with the Slim Shady lp. Or do you mean you only relate to the songs when he is being serious. He has made serious songs, but the majority of his music has been for shock value. Hell, Em even admits this in his own lyrics when he has to constantly remind you he is just joking. You don't seriously believe half his lyrics do you? Because if you do, the song stan is talking about you.

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

See homie, that's why I say you don't really understand Eminem or aren't a true fan when you say the Slim Shady LP was just about killing or sensationalism to sell records.

First off I'm 27 and been heavy into hip-hop ever since I was 11 or 12 and "Wit A Dre Day" was blowin up on MTV that summer.

I was actually a fan of Eminem's before even hearing his music.  When I read a summer 98 Rap Pages article about him and his signing to Dre's Aftermath label that was all I needed to know.

As for the Slim Shady LP even when he's clowning or rapping about violence it doesn't make it simply a "gimmick to sell records", its so much more then that, and I can still relate to it even though I'm not a violent person or drug addict or whatever...a few points...

1.  It's catharsis for the mind.  Think about when you throw up how you feel afterwards.  You feel like you've cleaned whatever garbage was in yur stomach and it's now empty and free.  Well a lot of the off the wall rhymes on SSLP had a deeper meaning and purpose towards catharsis of clearing the mind of tension and angst and making it free and clear.

2.  A song like Giulty Conscience, you can relate to the concept of a bad and evil side being in you.  "My Name Is" hes basically introducing himself to the world and I could relate to his character because he was a white dude who loved hiphop when it wasnt really socially acceptable for whites, and had family issues with his mom, problems in school, and felt like who he was as a person was under attack and he had to be creative to continue to express himself.  So many songs follow such a pattern.

3.  Anyone can relate to good music.  Eminem had a great sound on the album, flow, delivery, etc.  A symphony doesnt have any words yet you relate to it because it responds to the rythyms that exist in our brain, pulse, and neaurosystem. It touches our emotions as well.

[Triple OG Rapsodie]

I'm not saying its not great music. It can still be great music and be a gimmick at the same time, which it clearly is.

"what else can i say to make noise, i done touched on everything but little boys"

what does this line tell you? It's Eminem himself telling you he says what he says for shock value. That's why its called a gimmick. Its a marketing tool used to gain attention. Its what made him blow up. He clearly didn't make My Name Is or Guilty Conscience with anything serious in mind. Controversy sells. And Em has milked it to a pulp. They didn't call him the king of controversy for nothing. Why would he make homophobic lyrics and then turn out to be cool with gays in real life? Why would he make a song about killing his wife, and then end up getting back with her? He clearly doesn't believe in a lot of the things he raps about. He does it for comedic affect and to shock people. Again, going back to the original point of this argument which was to say that the majority of Eminem's music does not reflect his personal feelings.

I don't know any simpler way to prove this to you, other than to use Eminem's words himself

A lot of people ask me.. stupid fucking questions
A lot of people think that.. what I say on records
or what I talk about on a record, that I actually do in real life
or that I believe in it
Or if I say that, I wanna kill somebody, that..
I'm actually gonna do it
or that I believe in it
Well, shit.. if you believe that
then I'll kill you
You know why?
Cause I'm a

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

I agree with your point that Eminem does try to increase the shock value in his music.  Him and Dre even admitted the importance of shock value in his music.  I remember Dre saying he was wondering how the shock value on Em's second album could ever match that of the SSLP, and that he was pleasantly surprised when they completed MMLP, because he had actually topped it.

Also, Eminem says the idea behind D12 was to say the most over the top shit that they could say.

Now.. I've looked up the definition of gimmick so we can be clear...

gim·mick
   /ˈgɪmɪk/ Show Spelled[gim-ik] Show IPA
–noun
1.
an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, esp. one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.

So I guess according to that definition I can't argue that Eminem makes use of "gimmick".

********************************

...But getting back to the original argument you were saying that Em's music couldn't reflect growth because it has nothing to do with him and is just a gimmick.  And I think that was a very limiting perspective to have.  Because we've seen how Eminem's art has changed and grown and along with his own life.  

If we take a snapshot of the progression of his albums, you'll see he went from "Backstabbers" to "Guilty Conscience" then advancing to "Stan" and then "Say Goodbye To Hollywood" and then finally reached his height and peeked out with "Lose Yourself".  Now, admittedly, he lost his focus after that and he admits Relapse was a step backward.

[the ghost]

I think that its impossible to quantify intelligence.  Sure grandma might not be able to program your Ipod, but she may know how to knit a sweater.  Which of those skills is better to have?  Which denotes greater intelligence?  For me with age comes perspective.  Chances are you have seen more ups and downs and can appreciate when they occur instead of freaking out about it.

[Matty]

I think that its impossible to quantify intelligence.  Sure grandma might not be able to program your Ipod, but she may know how to knit a sweater.  Which of those skills is better to have?  Which denotes greater intelligence?  For me with age comes perspective.  Chances are you have seen more ups and downs and can appreciate when they occur instead of freaking out about it.

i don't think either of those skills denotes greater intelligence. i think raw logical abilities and being able to do 'complicated' things is too linear a way to think about intelligence. i would gauge it by our self-reflexivity, adaptability and ability to keep learning new things and bettering ourselves.

i think current generations, to an extent, have this adaptability as more of an embedded intrinsic value. this would be because of the increased speed the world is changing and to go along with this, less rigid ideologies.

one thing for sure, if i don't keep up with things when i get old (and i will make damn sure i try to) then i will be hustling my kids and grankids to teach me all the new shit. especially if it makes my life easier and more enjoyable. that's the irony, old people would benefit from a lot of these new technologies more than most young people.

[Triple OG Rapsodie]

I agree with your point that Eminem does try to increase the shock value in his music.  Him and Dre even admitted the importance of shock value in his music.  I remember Dre saying he was wondering how the shock value on Em's second album could ever match that of the SSLP, and that he was pleasantly surprised when they completed MMLP, because he had actually topped it.

Also, Eminem says the idea behind D12 was to say the most over the top shit that they could say.

Now.. I've looked up the definition of gimmick so we can be clear...

gim·mick
   /ˈgɪmɪk/ Show Spelled[gim-ik] Show IPA
–noun
1.
an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, esp. one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.

So I guess according to that definition I can't argue that Eminem makes use of "gimmick".

********************************

...But getting back to the original argument you were saying that Em's music couldn't reflect growth because it has nothing to do with him and is just a gimmick.  And I think that was a very limiting perspective to have.  Because we've seen how Eminem's art has changed and grown and along with his own life.  

If we take a snapshot of the progression of his albums, you'll see he went from "Backstabbers" to "Guilty Conscience" then advancing to "Stan" and then "Say Goodbye To Hollywood" and then finally reached his height and peeked out with "Lose Yourself".  Now, admittedly, he lost his focus after that and he admits Relapse was a step backward.

But see, that doesn't really say anything about his state of mind. The serious songs that he throws in on his albums are more a commentary on the state of his career than anything else. He couldn't have made the song Stan for the SSLP, regardless of where his mind state was because he hadn't blown up at that point. And the song Lose Yourself was tailor-made for the movie 8 Mile and described the character B Rabbit. Relapse was his "return album", basically a return to form where he had been gone a while and came back trying to up the bar with controversy. The reason he now calls it a step backwards is because the fan response to that side of Eminem was negative. If the fans had liked the silly Eminem again he would have considered it a step forward.

The direction of his albums don't necessarily say anything about Marshall Mathers the person. They are about Eminem the character. Two separate entities. The character on a record is not the same as the person who makes the record. IE. Ice Cube is a family man with a wife and kids but you wouldn't really know anything about that from listening to his latest record. You can comment all you want on the "growth" of an album, but they don't reflect the personal growth of the person who makes the record.

[.:DaYg0sTyLz:.]

If old people ARENT more stupid....how come they cant figure out that youre not supposed to go 45 in the fast lane? 

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

But see, that doesn't really say anything about his state of mind. The serious songs that he throws in on his albums are more a commentary on the state of his career than anything else. He couldn't have made the song Stan for the SSLP, regardless of where his mind state was because he hadn't blown up at that point. And the song Lose Yourself was tailor-made for the movie 8 Mile and described the character B Rabbit. Relapse was his "return album", basically a return to form where he had been gone a while and came back trying to up the bar with controversy. The reason he now calls it a step backwards is because the fan response to that side of Eminem was negative. If the fans had liked the silly Eminem again he would have considered it a step forward.

The direction of his albums don't necessarily say anything about Marshall Mathers the person. They are about Eminem the character. Two separate entities. The character on a record is not the same as the person who makes the record. IE. Ice Cube is a family man with a wife and kids but you wouldn't really know anything about that from listening to his latest record. You can comment all you want on the "growth" of an album, but they don't reflect the personal growth of the person who makes the record.

Well everybody will have their opinions, some people will say Relapse was actually dope or that Infinite was his best album.  But what I believe, and what Eminem has said himself, is that he grew as an artist, and each of his albums from Infinite up to Eminem Show he got better and better.  In fact, after Eminem Show he was saying he believed he always had to continue to outdo himself on every album; but when he got to Relapse he said he decided to stop putting pressure on himself like that and just have fun and make music.

So if you are saying that Eminem's albums up until 2003 did not reflect a growth in his artistry, but only that success came and he was able to rap about different subject... well then you disagree with the viewpoint of most of his fans, like myself, and it also goes against Eminem's own words.

Now, so if your willing to accept Eminem's words, that he grew as an artist and outdid himself on each album up through 8 Mile.  Then, getting back to my origional point, I would like to add that...

-growth as an artist = equals growth as a person-

Why?  Because that is who Eminem is.  That is his essence.  He is an artist.  That is his life, and that is how he defines himself.  

*******************************

Now, as for Ice Cube.  Ice Cube, I think originally defined himself as an artist, and I believe you can see growth in his work from NWA up through "Lethal Injection".  So in that way he succeeded where most people fail in life like Matty was saying, and most people "become dumber as they get older".  But Ice Cube continued to progress as an artist up through Lethal Injection, and then he began to define himself in different ways, such as an actor, producer, director, businessman, and although the quality of his music has since mitigated, I believe he is someone who has progressed and "became smarter as he got older".  So props to him.