Author Topic: For all believers.. an interesting arguement  (Read 230 times)

Ant

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For all believers.. an interesting arguement
« on: December 21, 2002, 05:43:23 PM »
Quotation from 17th century philosophy Vanini...

"If God wills sins, he will therefore produce them, for it is written that 'he brings about all that he wills.'  If he does not will them and yet they are committed, then we must declare him to be either improvident or not omnipotent or cruel, for then he does o carry out his decree either because he is ignorant or powerless or indolent. - philosophers say that, if God did not want mean and infamous actions to occur in the world, he would, no doubt, with a nod banish and abolish from the world all scandalous deeds.  For who of us could resist the divine will?  How could crimes be committed against the will of God, if with every sinful actions he endows the criminal with the strength to commit it?  Moreover, if a human being sins against the will of God, then God is weaker than the human being, and the human being opposes him and triumphs.  The result of all this is that God desires to have the world as it is, and that if he wanted to have a better world he would have a better one...  Consequently, if the will acts badly, the fault must be imputed on God."


Unfortunately this argument deceived a fellow philosopher Sorbonne, who was inspired by Vanini to write his most "godless" publications.  For this, Sorbonne was burnt alive after his blasphemous tongue had been cut out.  







 

Trauma-san

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Re:For all believers.. an interesting arguement
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2002, 06:40:39 PM »
This is an ignorant statement that has been thouroughly explained by every religion I'm familiar with.  My particular branch of Christianity has no problem answer this one, I doubt any other religion would have a problem answering it either.

My religion holds that the entire reason we are here on earth, is to be allowed the freedom to choose our own destiny, to choose right over wrong.  So, we are also free to choose wrong instead of right.  Simple as that.  If we lived in a perfect world, that god had made perfect, since yes, he could; we would be unable to progress, since we'd merely be slaves to his perfect rule.  On earth, we have that choice that we didn't have before.  We even believe that we lived in that state with him before we journeyed to earth.  we are on earth to grow, and learn things we couldn't learn in perfection.  Kind of like; kids tell their parents a million times not to do drugs, and that's perfectly genuine wisdom... it's the same thing god would tell them.  Kids never learn that it's true, though, until they experience drugs for themselves.  We're in a similar situation on earth. Peace~
 

Ant

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Re:For all believers.. an interesting arguement
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2002, 08:49:03 PM »
Here is where you arguement died.  You say every religion has thoroughly explained why this statement is wrong.  You then say it is wrong because we are here on earth with the FREEDOM to choose our own destiny.

No religion has fully explained this arguement they have only assumed their answer to be correct.

The assumption is that we all have the freedom to do as we will.  But it is just that an assumption.  No religion nor any being has proven free will exists yet the foundations of MOST religion rely on free will.  On the contrary a number of individual's have provided sufficient evidence to prove free will does not exist.

Specifically citing past Christians...  

Let's begin with St. Augustine:

"But now the fact is that man is not good, and does not have it in his power to be good; either he does not see how he should be, or he does and may not will to be so"

"My mind is disturbed by the following question: if sins spring from those souls that God has created, but those souls come from God, how is it possible except for sings to indirectly redound on God?" from De Libero Arbitrio


Now from Martin Luther:

"If we admit omniscience and omnipotence, it naturally follows without question that we are not made, nor do we live and do anything through ourselves, but only through his omnipotence - God's omniscience and omnipotence flatly contradict the freedom of our will - All beings are forced with inevitable consistency to regonize that we become what we are not by our free will, but by necessity" from De servo arbitrio

"Therefore we find it equally inscribed in the hearts of all that there is no such thing as free will, although this conviction is obscured by so many assertions to the contrary and by manifold authorities."

Essentially Martin Luther makes the same statement.  Vanini put it simply in the beginning by saying God is either not omnipotent or is cruel.  This implies God either does not have the power to make the world free of sin, or if he is all powerful then he desired to create a world with sin.

To prove your arguement you have to prove the existance of free will.  That so far has not been proven only assumed.  Therefore, this statement is not ignorant nor has it been fully countered.  


« Last Edit: December 21, 2002, 08:52:55 PM by Ant »
 

Trauma-san

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Re:For all believers.. an interesting arguement
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2002, 10:36:37 PM »
I would propose that you don't understand religion.  Peace~
 

Ant

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Re:For all believers.. an interesting arguement
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2002, 12:52:55 AM »
Yo I feel the need to say that while I argue with you a good amount, I also agree with you on a lot of things.

So I don't mean to seem as if I am attacking you personally.  Not that you have taken it as such, but to mention it just in case.

But to proceed from here.  Your final arguement is a bit lacking.  Its a vague statement with no definite meaning.  For instance, I could say "you don't understand blah blah blah" what exactly does that prove.  

When I made my statement I was merely criticizing your arguement.  However, you are attempting to discredit my arguement by attacking me.  

To say I don't understand religion is not the issue at hand.  Its irrelevant.  I could cite my knowledge about religion but it has nothing to do with this arguement.  I created a point and backed it up both in my own words and with citations from other christians, nevermind the evidence brought forth by non christians.   Instead of refuting my point you just deem me ignorant.  

Well thats an easy way to side step the issue and if you wish to then so be it.  Your only counter arguement was that God gave humanity freedom to do as they will.  But that arguement assumes free will exists.  In order to effectively argue your point you would have to prove the existance of free will.

And before proceeding futher, the freedom to do as you will is not the same as the freedom to will.  It is quite obvious I can do what I wish, but whether or not I can will what I will is a different matter all together.  As proposed by Martin Luther, Emmanuel Kant, St. Augustine, and best explained by Arthur Schopenheur among others.

I think at the very least I have provided a slight amount of evidence to support my claim.  I fail to see what evidence you have brought forth other than assumptions about my knowledge.
 

Trauma-san

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Re:For all believers.. an interesting arguement
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2002, 10:57:36 AM »


But to proceed from here.  Your final arguement is a bit lacking.  Its a vague statement with no definite meaning.  For instance, I could say "you don't understand blah blah blah" what exactly does that prove.  

When I made my statement I was merely criticizing your arguement.  However, you are attempting to discredit my arguement by attacking me.  



I'm just saying (not attacking) that it's as simple as that.  you have to understand, that one of the basic tenants of religion is faith.  That means, that no matter what, Religion cannot and will not be proven, any of them.  Religion asks you to make huge leaps of faith and believe stuff that makes sometimes no logical sense.  My religion is pretty sensible, most of it is pretty neatly explained, but just like in all religions, there are tons of things that there is no evidence for, it's just accepted on a matter of faith. You expect (in your earlier reply) for me to show you why god, with total proof neccessitated by you, has given us free will, and to prove that statement.  


The only argument I can give you, for that, is dependant on the validity of my religion, which cannot be proven.  So while my, and other religions, have totally explained your dilemma in this post, you can't accept it because it's based on the fundamentals of that religion.  Religion can't be proven, and at least my religion believes that whole heartedly and has a good explanation for why, that satisfies my curiosity, LOL.  With you on the outside, though, if I explained it to you (which I have done in the past on this board) you'd just say it wasn't a good enough explanation for you.

Man, I think you're looking at the wrong aspect of religion.  You're arguing about truthfulness, proof, all that, there is no proof, never will be that any religion is true, or is not true; there's shaky proof of the existance of god, but then you probably know shaky proof of his non-existance.  The only thing worth arguing about in religion, is WHY it affects billions of people in the world today.  I'd be more inclined to argue with you about that, then to argue with you about soemthing that's just wheel spinning.  Peace~

(P.S., I really didn't mean that as a personal attack, I was just saying you don't understand that religion is faith based, and can never be proven.  Peace~)
 

Ant

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Re:For all believers.. an interesting arguement
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2002, 03:30:06 PM »
Fair enough.   :)
 

verbalassaulta

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Re:For all believers.. an interesting arguement
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2002, 03:05:00 PM »
thats a great quote...  some of you guys need to take some philosophy couses when you get to college...  love the quote though...i agree with most of it
 

Ant

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Re:For all believers.. an interesting arguement
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2002, 10:25:40 PM »
Yeah definitely.  For the longest time I thought philosophy was lame.  I took it in HS and was like ehh.  Then it was a mandatory course in college and i hated it.  Then my little brother decided he was going to be a philosophy and management double major and I was like "what the fuck is wrong with you"

Then I started reading some of it myself.  Well to be honest its really really helpful stuff.  Philosophy is definitely best used as a means to an end.  But with that in mind, it can help you with almost every part of your life.  It all depends on who you read though.  A lot of it won't relate to you, and a lot of it you need a dictionary to read (www.m-w.com).

But if you find some good stuff it helps out a lot.  Although beware of what you read.  Some philosophy can easily lead you down the wrong path, so don't get too drawn into the first person you read and like.  

 

Instant_Killa

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Re:For all believers.. an interesting arguement
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2002, 04:51:08 AM »
wow, you both (ant and ET) have a very profound vocabulary. I respect that :)

apart from that, i really found your argument boring, but no offence, im not that philosophical a guy...maybe im not that mature yet....
 

Trauma-san

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Re:For all believers.. an interesting arguement
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2002, 08:32:46 AM »
Don't sweat it, I thought it was kinda boring too, haha.  I'd rather talk about things that are more important to everyday life.  Peace to all, Merry Christmas
 

bLaDe HeLi[X]

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Re:For all believers.. an interesting arguement
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2002, 02:32:27 PM »
yeah its a nice quote, but any religious person would be able to state why its wrong.  Like Trauma said, we are not slaves to God, and in no where in my religion does it state we are.  We have free will, the will to do right, or wrong.  And thats what my religion preaches, we are free, we dont pray to God for HIS pleasure, but for our benifit, peace

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