Author Topic: Why would someone vote against Prop 23?  (Read 461 times)

Russell Bell

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Re: Why would someone vote against Prop 23?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2010, 03:52:29 PM »

Real unemployment levels are above 20% by the way, as horrifying as 12% is, it's nowhere near the full picture.

Yep.  The number they give us doesn't include people who have given up looking for work but still need it, etc.  We are truly fucked.  And to be honest, if our environment gets fucked a little harder while our economy (hopefully, somehow, and very slowly) recovers, who gives a shit.

The David Arquette videos sum this issue up perfectly for me.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/19/david-arquette-prop-23-vi_n_768952.html

The general idea is that Big Oil is beating the shit out of California with its pollution, and in the video, David Arquette is taking punches from the Big Oil "thugs" and therefore represents the California citizen/environment, whatever.  I find it hilarious that rich celebrities use these issues to vilify rich companies who lobby for their interests (and in this case, the working man's interest) when they do the exact same shit.  I also find it funny that someone who doesn't need to look for work is so adamantly against this prop (coincidence?) and is convincing others who should be worried about working to vote against their own future.   
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 04:03:05 PM by Russell Bell »
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Sikotic™

Re: Why would someone vote against Prop 23?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2010, 07:15:43 PM »
The economy isn't everything. Some things are more important, one of which is the environment. That's why I voted no on 23.
 

Russell Bell

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Re: Why would someone vote against Prop 23?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2010, 07:26:18 PM »
The economy isn't everything. Some things are more important, one of which is the environment. That's why I voted no on 23.

Thats another funny thing about this.  Many people who supported this, would support expansion of welfare, entitlements, etc (aka social programs for poor people).  But they turn around and support something that will kill jobs (at least in the short term) that will hurt the guy trying to improve his own situation and avoid leeching off the govt.  Just an observation, not necessarily anyone in here.

I know a lot of people around where I live (mostly dumb college kids who hate anything associated with republicans, like 23) just looked at it as a partisan issue...."well oil companies suck, and they like, like to hurt people and the environment, and didn't Bush have something to do with oil? Yeah I'm voting against it". I respect that you actually have some convictions, even though I disagree big time.

Would you have the same opinion if you were working in a machine-heavy industry (Im assuming u dont), like construction or agriculture?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 07:31:59 PM by Russell Bell »
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Sami

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Re: Why would someone vote against Prop 23?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2010, 08:07:50 PM »
See, this is where I have a fundamental difference with the modern GOP.

Not everyone who use social programs are 'leeches', or even most of them. There are truly sick and disabled and disadvantaged people who get left to die if we just tell them to fuck themselves...and a democracy cannot exist with large mobs of sick, disabled or poor people just staying in the street. They suffer, and it wounds society creating a festering sore which makes people angry and crazy, which you can see a bit of now with how many people are losing their homes and people get more and more bitter and our economy worsens. Imagine if we abolished Social Security tomorrow like the Rs want. There are so many people who have either lost everything or never had anything in the first place for whom $500 a month (SSI maximum payment) is their only resource at all.

And protecting the environment is more important than jobs. You're argument is basically one of the arguments for making all drugs legal as well, because all the various drug jobs are better than no jobs at all, right? But hard drugs (not weed) damage society because they are addictive and cause crime as people are essentially slaves to the high. In that same way we have to protect the environment because if sea levels rise and the climate changes severely it will affect food and water supplies for the entire world.

It's like that saying, "Don't shit where you eat."
 

Russell Bell

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Re: Why would someone vote against Prop 23?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2010, 08:43:23 PM »
See, this is where I have a fundamental difference with the modern GOP.

Not everyone who use social programs are 'leeches', or even most of them. There are truly sick and disabled and disadvantaged people who get left to die if we just tell them to fuck themselves...and a democracy cannot exist with large mobs of sick, disabled or poor people just staying in the street. They suffer, and it wounds society creating a festering sore which makes people angry and crazy, which you can see a bit of now with how many people are losing their homes and people get more and more bitter and our economy worsens. Imagine if we abolished Social Security tomorrow like the Rs want. There are so many people who have either lost everything or never had anything in the first place for whom $500 a month (SSI maximum payment) is their only resource at all.

And protecting the environment is more important than jobs. You're argument is basically one of the arguments for making all drugs legal as well, because all the various drug jobs are better than no jobs at all, right? But hard drugs (not weed) damage society because they are addictive and cause crime as people are essentially slaves to the high. In that same way we have to protect the environment because if sea levels rise and the climate changes severely it will affect food and water supplies for the entire world.

It's like saying don't shit where you eat."

Fact is, many people cheat the welfare system.  Because we live in such a "PC" society when dealing with certain people/groups, a lot of times people are afraid to voice this and afraid to hear it cause it might sound bigoted to someone who doesnt know better.  I am not saying that we shouldnt have some assistance or that all people on it are cheats.  I know many people who survive off of govt assistance (family, friends who actually deserve it).  But, think about how many people you know that would lie or cheat their way to get something they wanted if they thought it was possible they got away with it.  This is human nature to do this.  The people saying they "can't work" because of a technicality but really if they pushed themselves halfway they would be fine.  Couples having multiple kids without thinking of the effect:  child care paid for, needed medical services,etc.  Look all I'm saying is that there are alotta cheats out there doing this because of the golden faucet being turned on in states like CA.  Look at our state then look others: we are the biggest welfare state in the country, and cant provide our communities with simple services.

How does this tie into 23?  Making more regulations on businesses in an especially tough time will probably lead to less hiring and more firing.  We dont need to be hurting small business right now, we should help it so it can hire us.  Less unemployment = less people on govt assistance.  If we were able to give jobs to those who need them, then we could more afford to help those that really do need govt assistance. 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 08:50:43 PM by Russell Bell »
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Sami

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Re: Why would someone vote against Prop 23?
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2010, 09:07:49 PM »
California's welfare system has been largely abolished and the maximum CalWORKS payment was $221, *before* Schwarzenegger got rid of it. And I think you had to prove you were getting job training, and you were limited to 2 years (for life). And most studies said it was effective at getting people independent.

And I'm with you when it comes to kids. Society should encourage the poor to get an abortion. There are so many people who shit out kids and dump them in the system and to me the system was worse than death in terms of how shitty it is (and I was only in it a few years, imagine what it is to be in the system from birth).

If it were up to me senior year in high school would be all about life skills like parenting, how to get a job, how to cook instead of fast food and how basically to function independently. So many kids don't have that and it would reduce poverty right there.

The oil industry and big polluters will prosper regardless of the economic or legal situation and they certainly aren't small businesses. See, even after the Gulf disaster BP made record profits so I really am not concerned about them.

If you really support small businesses we need to handle the severe shortage of credit so business can expand, hire and create domestic demand. We need that, because the big banks are too busy investing in China and leeching from our government to pay for it.
 

Sikotic™

Re: Why would someone vote against Prop 23?
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2010, 10:10:48 PM »
Would you have the same opinion if you were working in a machine-heavy industry (Im assuming u dont), like construction or agriculture?
No, I don't work in a machine-heavy industry. If I did of course I would feel differently.

I understand where you are coming from too. I never look at issues like this as black-and-white. I feel whether the proposition passed or got rejected, there would be some negative consequence, which have been pointed out in here. I guess it all boils down to a voter's individual priorities. We differ on that, but I understand your viewpoint completely.
 

BG Rapsodie

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Re: Why would someone vote against Prop 23?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2010, 04:52:59 PM »
I was against prop 23 because it dwells in such a shady grey area. There's no conclusive evidence that it would even lower the unemployment rate. Then there's the actual stipulations. It seems like just an excuse for major corporations to get out of going green. And look who were the major backers of Prop 23. Is it that hard to put 2 and 2 together? Going green will have a much more positive affect on our economy in the long run. There's ways to fix our short-term problems without giving up our future.
 

Russell Bell

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Re: Why would someone vote against Prop 23?
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2010, 06:00:48 PM »
I was against prop 23 because it dwells in such a shady grey area. There's no conclusive evidence that it would even lower the unemployment rate. Then there's the actual stipulations. It seems like just an excuse for major corporations to get out of going green. And look who were the major backers of Prop 23. Is it that hard to put 2 and 2 together? Going green will have a much more positive affect on our economy in the long run. There's ways to fix our short-term problems without giving up our future.

So because big oil backed this bill it couldnt possibly benefit the working person of California? I know you didn't state that directly, but come on.  2 + 2 for me on this issue is, cost goes up for business, they hire less.  Pretty simple.  We'll see how it plays out, but why do you think that businesses don't wanna be here?  California, according to Forbes, is the 10th worst state for business.  Its like people wanna cut off their nose to spite their face because an "undesirable" element was behind a proposition.

I agree with you about the long run.  But we cannot afford to make these changes now.   
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 06:04:37 PM by Russell Bell »
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BG Rapsodie

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Re: Why would someone vote against Prop 23?
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2010, 06:32:19 PM »
I was against prop 23 because it dwells in such a shady grey area. There's no conclusive evidence that it would even lower the unemployment rate. Then there's the actual stipulations. It seems like just an excuse for major corporations to get out of going green. And look who were the major backers of Prop 23. Is it that hard to put 2 and 2 together? Going green will have a much more positive affect on our economy in the long run. There's ways to fix our short-term problems without giving up our future.

So because big oil backed this bill it couldnt possibly benefit the working person of California? I know you didn't state that directly, but come on.  2 + 2 for me on this issue is, cost goes up for business, they hire less.  Pretty simple.  We'll see how it plays out, but why do you think that businesses don't wanna be here?  California, according to Forbes, is the 10th worst state for business.  Its like people wanna cut off their nose to spite their face because an "undesirable" element was behind a proposition.

I agree with you about the long run.  But we cannot afford to make these changes now.   

Looking at who is financing a bill is extremely important as it makes it clear what parties the bill is intended to benefit, especially one where the stated reasons for its existence are speculation at best. Its not a solution, in fact its effectively suspending indefinitely the resolution of another problem.

For me to okay a proposition it has to have a clear-cut goal. This is a bill for crying out loud! If it has problems or murky areas in it, it shouldn't be passed into law. I have an idea, how about supporting a bill that is actually intended to help fix the unemployment issue?
 

virtuoso

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Re: Why would someone vote against Prop 23?
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2010, 03:03:13 AM »
I was against prop 23 because it dwells in such a shady grey area. There's no conclusive evidence that it would even lower the unemployment rate. Then there's the actual stipulations. It seems like just an excuse for major corporations to get out of going green. And look who were the major backers of Prop 23. Is it that hard to put 2 and 2 together? Going green will have a much more positive affect on our economy in the long run. There's ways to fix our short-term problems without giving up our future.

So because big oil backed this bill it couldnt possibly benefit the working person of California? I know you didn't state that directly, but come on.  2 + 2 for me on this issue is, cost goes up for business, they hire less.  Pretty simple.  We'll see how it plays out, but why do you think that businesses don't wanna be here?  California, according to Forbes, is the 10th worst state for business.  Its like people wanna cut off their nose to spite their face because an "undesirable" element was behind a proposition.

I agree with you about the long run.  But we cannot afford to make these changes now.   

Looking at who is financing a bill is extremely important as it makes it clear what parties the bill is intended to benefit, especially one where the stated reasons for its existence are speculation at best. Its not a solution, in fact its effectively suspending indefinitely the resolution of another problem.

For me to okay a proposition it has to have a clear-cut goal. This is a bill for crying out loud! If it has problems or murky areas in it, it shouldn't be passed into law. I have an idea, how about supporting a bill that is actually intended to help fix the unemployment issue?

Then you just play a bluff card, like the insurance companies being against the health care bill when it turns out it was actually written by the insurance company. Or the big oil corporations supposedly being against carbon cuts when instead it is beneficial to them. Saying simply look who finances is too simplistic because they finance both sides, the only way to ensure that you can steer the boat fully. You have to look at who makes the major gains and when you do, it's always big business who make the major gains, since most of these bills are drafted by them. It's not even difficult to pinpoint either since a lot of the advisers have direct conflicts of interests with these very corporations. Here for example the government openly uses advisors who are still employed with business interests, so they essentially lease them lol.